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Because its a CC MC where shooting it is a viable answer.

Riptide is a shooty MC, where CC is typically NOT the answer.

 raverrn wrote:
Why isn't the Tyrannofex broken?

Because unlike the Riptide, the T-Fex:
-- does not have an invul save,
-- is not a Jet-pack MC,
-- has mediocre guns at best,
-- does not have access to FNP (outside of having another unit cast a psychic power that's better cast on other units)
-- requires a Synapse unit nearby to babysit it.

--

Bharring wrote:Because its a CC MC where shooting it is a viable answer.
Riptide is a shooty MC, where CC is typically NOT the answer.

The Tfex is, in fact, a shooty MC.

Galef wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
Why isn't the Tyrannofex broken?

Because unlike the Riptide, the T-Fex:
-- does not have an invul save,
-- is not a Jet-pack MC,
-- has mediocre guns at best,
-- does not have access to FNP (outside of having another unit cast a psychic power that's better cast on other units)
-- requires a Synapse unit nearby to babysit it.

--

The 'fex has access to a better and more reliable cover save than the Riptide's shield, can be deepstruck to limit or eliminate mobility troubles, has access to S10, Rending and Haywire weapons, has access to FnP and the ability to heal itself. It's also immune to fear effects unlike the Riptide, doesn't wound itself when trying to use it's abilities, doesn't wound itself with Gets Hot weaponry and is even competent in CC. If anything you guys should be trying to nerf it.

How much does it cost?

", doesn't wound itself when trying to use it's abilities"

Come on now, neither does the Riptide.

"even competent in CC"

So is the Riptide.

"The 'fex has access to a better and more reliable cover save than the Riptide's shield"

Cover is not invuln. Ask the Tau about that.

I guess ive just been so unimpressed with the Tfex that i only really feared its CC.

Honestly, the only thing that the TFex does well is root hordes out of cover while being almost immune to their return fire (unless they have a plasma gun...)

It's just kinda poorly considered. Its supposed star weapon, the Rupture Cannon, is a two-shot AP4 weapon on a BS3 platform. That doesn't scare vehicles much (not enough hull points, can't explode non-Open-Topped), and with AP4, it doesn't scare MCs or heavy infantry much either, with that little volume of fire. And the Fleshborer Hive is just sad. And, with S6/WS3/I3/A3, it's not particularly impressive in CC either (though not useless).

It's a good example of how T6/2+ is not automatically broken cheese, and a good example of how to make a unit that's tough as nails but near irrelevant.

Actually, this makes kind of an interesting case study:

Tyrannofex: mostly useless
Dreadknight: Tough and hard-hitting, but mostly manageable.
HBC Riptide: Dangerous, especially to MCs, light vehicles and heavy infantry, but probably manageable outside of Riptide Wing or large numbers - gets close enough that grav, plasma, melta, wraithcannons, etc, will get a shot at it.
IA Riptide: Incredibly annoying and hard to deal with for anything but the armies that find it mostly irrelevant. (Stays far enough away that you're really only going to hurt it with lascannons, battle cannons, etc, then it mostly ignores those.)

You know honestly it seams people are really bent out of shape because of the IA (which i don't take anyways).

How would people feel able swapping it over to the rail gun from the hammerhead.
For people that dont know the profile:
S10 AP1 single shot
S6 AP4 Large blast

Then give the riptide the option to nova charge and add armor bane to both profiles.

That's not terrible, actually, though the Hammerhead's railgun is a bit unimpressive as it is unless you take a full squadron. (Three of them, with BS5, enhanced by one being Longstrike, is actually strong, if expensive).

My problem with the IA is not that it can throw an AP2 pie-plate. It's that it can throw an AP2 pie-plate from across the table, and doesn't have to risk using the nova reactor to do it. The HBC is more powerful against most things, but, very importantly, it cannot do what it does with impunity. You have to nova-charge to get the most out of it, and you have to be fairly close, no less than 36", and often closer. That means you'll actually need all that durability to stay alive.

By the bye, this is why I've never been a fan of proposals that both shorten the Riptide's effective range and drop it to a 3+ armor save. The 2+ is fine, and probably even needed, if you're going to operate up close. It's not fine if you can sit back 48+ inches, however.

Why does a Riptide need a 2+? TMC's need to be a lot closer and all have 3+ or worse with one exception.

How about this?

Riptide--------------270 points
Type; Vehicle, Walker, Super Heavy

WS 2, BS 4, S 8, AV: F 12, S 12, R 10, I 2, A 2, HP 6

Weapons: Heavy Burst Cannon, Riptide Shield System, Nova Reactor

Special Rules:

Riptide Shield System: The Riptide has a 5+ Cover Save

Nova Reactor: once per turn you may choose one of these effects
-Fire any weapons twice, but any rolls to hit of a '1' will inflict a glancing hit on the Riptide. Scatter results of a 10+ will result in a glancing hit on the Riptide
-Increase the Cover Save to 3+, but any save rolls of a '1' will inflict a glancing hit
-Make an additional move in the movement phase, but must roll a dice. On a '1' or '2' the Riptide suffers a glancing hit.

All the other rules and upgrades work as they do in the codex.

 master of ordinance wrote:
How about this?

Riptide--------------270 points
Type; Vehicle, Walker, Super Heavy

WS 2, BS 4, S 8, AV: F 12, S 12, R 10, I 2, A 2, HP 6

Weapons: Heavy Burst Cannon, Riptide Shield System, Nova Reactor

Special Rules:

Riptide Shield System: The Riptide has a 5+ Cover Save

Nova Reactor: once per turn you may choose one of these effects
-Fire any weapons twice, but any rolls to hit of a '1' will inflict a glancing hit on the Riptide. Scatter results of a 10+ will result in a glancing hit on the Riptide
-Increase the Cover Save to 3+, but any save rolls of a '1' will inflict a glancing hit
-Make an additional move in the movement phase, but must roll a dice. On a '1' or '2' the Riptide suffers a glancing hit.

All the other rules and upgrades work as they do in the codex.

I dont mind making it a walker but its certainly not big enough to be a super heavy.

I also don't see a reason to have all of these separate rules for nova charge damage. Just roll a d6, on a 1-2 inflicts a glancing hit.

pm713 wrote:
Why does a Riptide need a 2+? TMC's need to be a lot closer and all have 3+ or worse with one exception.

On the flipside, Tyranids have MCs in every force org slot (mostly, Tervigons are weird), almost everything in the entire codex wants to get close, either to assault or use short-range guns, and they are easily capable of target saturation. Tau can't really do that (formations like the Riptide Wing notwithstanding: I concur that it's a problem). They put this one big stompy thing in your face, plus a bunch of smaller stuff with scary guns that depends on markerlight synergy. Break the web of synergy and they suddenly do much less damage. Plus, once they're close, Tau basically have to do what they set out to do quickly, or risk falling to assault. Tyranids, on the other hand, will give you a good fight if you charge them, at the very least. Some 'nids are downright terrifying in melee, at least for the price.

From another perspective, getting close with a fire sink makes for a more dynamic game than hanging back and splatting things, but that may be a matter of preference.

That said, if the nova reactor didn't inflict an unsaveable wound on a 1-2 (but instead just does nothing), but the Riptide were reduced to T6/W4/3+, would it be overcosted at 180ppm base? (And then what if it were changed from MC to Infantry?)

jade_angel wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why does a Riptide need a 2+? TMC's need to be a lot closer and all have 3+ or worse with one exception.

On the flipside, Tyranids have MCs in every force org slot (mostly, Tervigons are weird), almost everything in the entire codex wants to get close, either to assault or use short-range guns, and they are easily capable of target saturation. Tau can't really do that (formations like the Riptide Wing notwithstanding: I concur that it's a problem). They put this one big stompy thing in your face, plus a bunch of smaller stuff with scary guns that depends on markerlight synergy. Break the web of synergy and they suddenly do much less damage. Plus, once they're close, Tau basically have to do what they set out to do quickly, or risk falling to assault. Tyranids, on the other hand, will give you a good fight if you charge them, at the very least. Some 'nids are downright terrifying in melee, at least for the price.

Breaking the web of synergy goes a lot better for Tau than Nids.

There are no Nid units that are good at melee for the price that I can think of.

jade_angel wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why does a Riptide need a 2+? TMC's need to be a lot closer and all have 3+ or worse with one exception.

On the flipside, Tyranids have MCs in every force org slot (mostly, Tervigons are weird), almost everything in the entire codex wants to get close, either to assault or use short-range guns, and they are easily capable of target saturation. Tau can't really do that (formations like the Riptide Wing notwithstanding: I concur that it's a problem). They put this one big stompy thing in your face, plus a bunch of smaller stuff with scary guns that depends on markerlight synergy. Break the web of synergy and they suddenly do much less damage. Plus, once they're close, Tau basically have to do what they set out to do quickly, or risk falling to assault. Tyranids, on the other hand, will give you a good fight if you charge them, at the very least. Some 'nids are downright terrifying in melee, at least for the price.

From another perspective, getting close with a fire sink makes for a more dynamic game than hanging back and splatting things, but that may be a matter of preference.

That said, if the nova reactor didn't inflict an unsaveable wound on a 1-2 (but instead just does nothing), but the Riptide were reduced to T6/W4/3+, would it be overcosted at 180ppm base? (And then what if it were changed from MC to Infantry?)

Why should it become infantry? The largest infantry I can think of is wraithguard, it would make no sense to make something as large as a riptide infantry.

I can see the argument for it becoming a walker but not infantry.

Lictors and Carnifexes aren't actually bad for what they're meant to do, and Hormagaunts are actually pretty good (weak, but cheap and fast, and can force a lot of saves). Sure, they're not going to single-handedly beat a death star, but then, that's the point of a death star.

But, I do see your point. What about T5/W4/Sv 3+? That's the same level of durability as the Ghostkeel, though, which is cheaper. (OTOH, the Ghostkeel's cover tricks are much reduced inside of 12", and do nothing in melee).

The main thing I would change, besides nerfing the non-Nova Ion Accelerator, would be the way the Nova Reactor works.

Currently, it's "Roll die, get power." Decision-wise, there are so very few occasions where you *don't* want to roll to see if you get a bonus, that the choice is fairly underwhelming.

Personally, I like the idea of the Nova Reactor being a surge of power to one system, at the cost of forfeiting the use of that system for a turn.

Nova Reactor: The Riptide may call upon the Nova Reactor to power up a system. The Riptide may not choose the same bonus for two consecutive turns.

Nova-Charge: The Riptide may use the Nova Charge profile for its main weapon this turn. The Riptide may *not* use its main weapon next turn.
Nova Shield: The Riptide's shield provides a 2+ Invulnerable Save for this turn. The Riptide may not claim any Invulnerable Save next turn.
Boost: The Riptide gains +3" to all of its movement this turn (including regular moves, Jet Thrust Moves, assault, pursuit, etc). The Riptide may not move next turn. Should it be forced to move (due to Tank Shock/Fleeing a close combat/etc), it is automatically destroyed.
Ripple Fire: The Riptide may fire its secondary weapons twice, and they gain +1 Strength. The Riptide may not fire its secondary weapons next turn.

jade_angel wrote:
Lictors and Carnifexes aren't actually bad for what they're meant to do, and Hormagaunts are actually pretty good (weak, but cheap and fast, and can force a lot of saves). Sure, they're not going to single-handedly beat a death star, but then, that's the point of a death star.

But, I do see your point. What about T5/W4/Sv 3+? That's the same level of durability as the Ghostkeel, though, which is cheaper. (OTOH, the Ghostkeel's cover tricks are much reduced inside of 12", and do nothing in melee).

I dont agree with it becoming less durable then a commander in iridium armor. That's a bit absurd to me. It should be T6/3+ at a minimum.

The ghostkeel keeps a 4+ cover save minimum even within 12in and on top of that holophoton complete counters a single shooting attack.

jade_angel wrote:
Lictors and Carnifexes aren't actually bad for what they're meant to do, and Hormagaunts are actually pretty good (weak, but cheap and fast, and can force a lot of saves). Sure, they're not going to single-handedly beat a death star, but then, that's the point of a death star.

But, I do see your point. What about T5/W4/Sv 3+? That's the same level of durability as the Ghostkeel, though, which is cheaper. (OTOH, the Ghostkeel's cover tricks are much reduced inside of 12", and do nothing in melee).

I'd be okay with that durability.

It can even stay T6/2+, but it needs to pay for that and the IA needs to changed.

Now, it has been pointed out that the HBC is a better weapon against most targets other than 3+ and 2+ expensive dudes. I personally don't see this weapon that often, because I think my Tau opponents are using HYMP and Stormsurge to do the work of the HBC, and relying on the IA exclusively vs elite infantry.

I still think it's incredibly dumb that the HBC has gets hot on the nova charge. This makes it 15 X more hazardous than the IA!

I don't mind taking huge casaulties vs Tau. I don't mind even BA vs Tau being an uphill battle in general. But I DO mind getting over to the Tau and then having my surviving CC elements punched out by this thing.

Honestly smash should lose AP unless you chose to make one attack at S10 AP1. MC's can be like walkers where you need specific CCW's to get an AP value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly gets hot isn't bad at all with a 2+/5+++

lusciifi wrote:
Honestly smash should lose AP unless you chose to make one attack at S10 AP1. MC's can be like walkers where you need specific CCW's to get an AP value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly gets hot isn't bad at all with a 2+/5+++

Conceptually it's still dumb.

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
Honestly smash should lose AP unless you chose to make one attack at S10 AP1. MC's can be like walkers where you need specific CCW's to get an AP value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly gets hot isn't bad at all with a 2+/5+++

Conceptually it's still dumb.

And once in a while, stupid things happen.

I was playing a game versus Skitarii a few months back; I had a Riptide with HBC/TLFB spearheading an advance by Crisis Suits. It had taken I think one wound from a volley of plasma fire, and then the Ruststalkers charged me. I dumped the HBC into them, nova-charged, with the aid of a few markerlights slung in by two Pathfinder squads... And when the smoke cleared, I rolled seven ones, and failed five armor saves and four FNPs. Boom, self-destruct. Stupidly long odds, but incredibly infuriating on the rare occasions when that happens.

Then again, that particular model might be cursed. It's been chopped to bits by three Assault Marines before, run off the table after being tank-shocked by a Hellhound, and died in one shooting phase to a single squad of Kabalite Warriors. (Though that Hellhound then proceeded to soak up six melta shots that all hit, without losing a single hull point, thanks to stupid dice. So maybe it's just me that's cursed...)

I agree that your 200+ pt or whatever model shouldn't be able to kill itself with the IA alternative weapon.

Yep, agreed on that for sure... (Similar reasoning is why I'd never in a million years take a plasma cannon on a Stormraven, even though it's twin-linked, even against TEQ spam. Not that anyone does that anymore.)

You guys are erally overcomplicating a simple problem.

Try riptides with the following simple changes:

1-No riptide wings exist

2-The ion accelerator has no overcharge profile, only regular or NOVA changed.

3-Remember Ordnance rules actually effect the riptide.

That's it, that's all it really needs. once you take these simple rules, riptides sit properly in the "good unit" part of the power curve, without running into the "too good" area.

IA is never overcharged as it is. The basic profile is way too good.

Martel732 wrote:
IA is never overcharged as it is. The basic profile is way too good.

The Overcharged profile is the R72 S8 AP2 Heavy 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot version, not the nova-charged S9 Ordnance version. The latter is what nobody uses. The basic profile is "S7 AP2 Heavy 3", and I don't think I've ever seen that used to cause all that much havoc.

The Overcharged version is what gets used all the time to intercept deep strikers.

Terminology fail on my part.

balancing is simple -> Make them vehicles / walkers.
Give them 3HP AV 13/12/12 and you are done.

 oldzoggy wrote:
balancing is simple -> Make them vehicles / walkers.
Give them 3HP AV 13/12/12 and you are done.

It's simple until the Tau players start in on the fluff reason why it shouldn't be that way.