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1. Psychic shriek spam.

You are still rocking a 5++/5+++ minimum. Go to 3++ and this power becomes worthless.

2. CSM cabal controlling my own units.

Ironically, short of Stormsurge D-missiles, Tau are pretty inept at killing 2+ armor MCs.

3. Deathstars, screamer/TWC/bikes, take your pick.

Deathstars are a viable counter. But BA have not deathstars.

4. Grav spam

Only grav cannons. Grav guns don't have the shots to matter. Even then, the most popular grav cannon deployment scheme is hard-countered by Tau EWO. I frankly am not sure how any grav-toting unit lives long enough to get within range without invisibility.

5. WK's, wraith guard, really anything with D

That's true. Str D is quite useful vs T6 MCs with FNP, as it ignores both of these features. The BA seem fresh out of D weapons. As do most imperial lists.

Again, most competitive lists use HBC not IA.

5++/5+++ still means you are taking an average of 1.5 wounds from psychic shriek and I've been hit with 4+ a turn.

Its not just grav cannons, grav guns on bikes are terrifying, especially with whit scars.

Riptides also don't do well against vehicle spam, heavy armor like the IK will get to the ripide by the end almost guaranteed, and it will take out the smaller units on its way there.

" grav guns on bikes are terrifying"

They're gak. I have them. They don't cause enough wounds vs Riptides and the like. If you really don't like them though, ignore cover pie plate them off the table from 60" away like a boss.

"Riptides also don't do well against vehicle spam"

Fortunately for you, vehicles are downright terrible.

"5++/5+++ still means you are taking an average of 1.5 wounds from psychic shriek and I've been hit with 4+ a turn. "

That's an insane amount of effort put in to kill a single MC. That's at least four pskyers all within shriek range, all with telepathy. Why are you letting them get so close?

One of the top players at our store who placed top 50 at last years LVO uses whitescars grav bikes almost exclusively. Start 24 away, scout 12, move 12, oh look you are in range.

My meta including tourny play, has quite a few people playing armored IG or renegades and I think about half of the imperial lists included an IK. They seam to do plenty well to me.

You cant just hide in a corner all game, you need to be grabbing mid field objectives, so yes the psykers can reach you. Ive also played against hemlock wings, good luck getting out of range of psychic flyers.

lusciifi wrote:
One of the top players at our store who placed top 50 at last years LVO uses whitescars grav bikes almost exclusively. Start 24 away, scout 12, move 12, oh look you are in range.

My meta including tourny play, has quite a few people playing armored IG or renegades and I think about half of the imperial lists included an IK. They seam to do plenty well to me.

You cant just hide in a corner all game, you need to be grabbing mid field objectives, so yes the psykers can reach you. Ive also played against hemlock wings, good luck getting out of range of psychic flyers.

You can hide in the corner and win once you've killed 90% of the opponent's list. Trivially, might I add.

IKs are awful compared to WKs. They have a niche in being pretty resistant to most Tau weapons other than D-missiles, but Eldar eat them up so fast I can't see them as a good choice.

Getting in range isn't the issue. It's that the grav guns themselves can't generate enough wounds to threaten a 5++/5+++ W5 model with an option for 3++.

The riptide should have been a AV12/12/11 Walker with a jump pack.

Same goes for the Dreadknight and the Wraithknight (maybe the wraithknight can be 13/13/12 for being made out of wraithbone). CSM had to deal with the monstrosity that is the Forge Fiend and Maulerfiend, and those are more likely to be actual MCs than the Riptide and knights.

WK shouldnt get AV13. Not even the Rev. Titan gets that. The ONLY AV13 CWE can field is the Phantom Titan, which is over 2k points on its own.

Bharring wrote:
WK shouldnt get AV13. Not even the Rev. Titan gets that. The ONLY AV13 CWE can field is the Phantom Titan, which is over 2k points on its own.

I'd prefer it. By a lot. T8 3+/5+++ is more durable than your Titans. That's a problem.

That's fine that you don't see IK as a good choice but plenty of players around me make them work.

A single grav gun will do on average 1 wound so yes, a big squad of grav bikers scares me.

You cant hide in the corner all game, that's not how ITC or nova missions work. You will lose out points if you are not in the fray holding points all game. Also I cant remember the last time I tabled an opponent in a tounement setting.


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Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
WK shouldnt get AV13. Not even the Rev. Titan gets that. The ONLY AV13 CWE can field is the Phantom Titan, which is over 2k points on its own.

I'd prefer it. By a lot. T8 3+/5+++ is more durable than your Titans. That's a problem.

Ive played against both and I strongly disagree. Holofields make the eldar titans more durable then even their imperial counterparts. Saying a WK is even close to that level is hyperbole to the nth degree.

"A single grav gun will do on average 1 wound so yes, a big squad of grav bikers scares me. "

The real math is this:

It takes 20 BS 4 grav gun shots to kill a Stimtide. This goes to 27 shots with a toe in ruins. This bloats up to an incredible 40 shots with the 3++ shield up.

Biker squads by default can have two grav guns with a total of SIX shots. You need FIVE combi-gravs in the squad to make up the other 14 shots.

Are you opponents perhaps cheating?

Martel732 wrote:
"A single grav gun will do on average 1 wound so yes, a big squad of grav bikers scares me. "

The real math is this:

It takes 20 BS 4 grav gun shots to kill a Stimtide. This goes to 27 shots with a toe in ruins. This bloats up to an incredible 40 shots with the 3++ shield up.

Biker squads by default can have two grav guns with a total of SIX shots. You need FIVE combi-gravs in the squad to make up the other 14 shots.

Are you opponents perhaps cheating?

You know you can have more then one squad of bikes right? I don't claim to know every facet of the C:SM but I do know I've been tabled playing tau lists with riptide wings and stormsurges against what scar's biker lists.

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

How are the Riptides dying? Because conventional Imperial heavy weapons are basically useless, as is melta.

Lets see..

1. Psychic shriek spam.
2. CSM cabal controlling my own units.
3. Deathstars, screamer/TWC/bikes, take your pick.
4. Grav spam
5. WK's, wraith guard, really anything with D
6. Anything with a lot of vehicles, especially IK.

YOU DO UNDERSTAND THIS THIS HAS AN AP2 BATTLE CANNON.... right ? it should never be close to anything that can hurt it unless it wants to be? It also has 5 point access to EWO. I've never actually lost a riptide in game...Never. It is a indestructible mobile artillery piece with counter charge potential. Just this Saturday my solo riptide was the MVP of my game. Flying circus flew into my lines - long story short - it was my riptide vs fatey. Riptide shot him out of the sky - charged and 1 shot him with a smash attack. Hitting on a 3+ with ws2 is rare but seriously...I could punk a greater daemon in CC every turn if i got lucky - with very little chance of dying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"A single grav gun will do on average 1 wound so yes, a big squad of grav bikers scares me. "

The real math is this:

It takes 20 BS 4 grav gun shots to kill a Stimtide. This goes to 27 shots with a toe in ruins. This bloats up to an incredible 40 shots with the 3++ shield up.

Biker squads by default can have two grav guns with a total of SIX shots. You need FIVE combi-gravs in the squad to make up the other 14 shots.

Are you opponents perhaps cheating?

You know you can have more then one squad of bikes right? I don't claim to know every facet of the C:SM but I do know I've been tabled playing tau lists with riptide wings and stormsurges against what scar's biker lists.

They were probably using the inferior riptide option. The HBC. The ion accelerator just kites the bikes with 4d6 thrust move LOL. In gerneral - I'd consider losing to space marines with tau a great disgrace to the codex. The codex is literally designed to destroy space marines.

 Xenomancers wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

How are the Riptides dying? Because conventional Imperial heavy weapons are basically useless, as is melta.

Lets see..

1. Psychic shriek spam.
2. CSM cabal controlling my own units.
3. Deathstars, screamer/TWC/bikes, take your pick.
4. Grav spam
5. WK's, wraith guard, really anything with D
6. Anything with a lot of vehicles, especially IK.

YOU DO UNDERSTAND THIS THIS HAS AN AP2 BATTLE CANNON.... right ? it should never be close to anything that can hurt it unless it wants to be? It also has 5 point access to EWO. I've never actually lost a riptide in game...Never. It is a indestructible mobile artillery piece with counter charge potential. Just this Saturday my solo riptide was the MVP of my game. Flying circus flew into my lines - long story short - it was my riptide vs fatey. Riptide shot him out of the sky - charged and 1 shot him with a smash attack. Hitting on a 3+ with ws2 is rare but seriously...I could punk a greater daemon in CC every turn if i got lucky - with very little chance of dying.

you do understand how lucky you got, right? 1/6 chance to hit, 5/6 chance to wound 8/36 to get through the invuln (3++ reroll 1's) with only 3 shots for a total of 9% to hit once and thats assuming he didnt have any psychic powers buffing that durability. Then on top of all that 1/3 to fail the grounding test.

Yes a firewarrior can kill a termie per round in cc too, that dosnt make them op.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"A single grav gun will do on average 1 wound so yes, a big squad of grav bikers scares me. "

The real math is this:

It takes 20 BS 4 grav gun shots to kill a Stimtide. This goes to 27 shots with a toe in ruins. This bloats up to an incredible 40 shots with the 3++ shield up.

Biker squads by default can have two grav guns with a total of SIX shots. You need FIVE combi-gravs in the squad to make up the other 14 shots.

Are you opponents perhaps cheating?

You know you can have more then one squad of bikes right? I don't claim to know every facet of the C:SM but I do know I've been tabled playing tau lists with riptide wings and stormsurges against what scar's biker lists.

They were probably using the inferior riptide option. The HBC. The ion accelerator just kites the bikes with 4d6 thrust move LOL. In gerneral - I'd consider losing to space marines with tau a great disgrace to the codex. The codex is literally designed to destroy space marines.

Either you are trolling you you just dont have much experiance playing high tier lists because tau does not not win against space marines on average at a tournament competitive level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless your opponent has no idea what they are doing and bunches up their units the HBC does better then the IA against almost every target.

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"A single grav gun will do on average 1 wound so yes, a big squad of grav bikers scares me. "

The real math is this:

It takes 20 BS 4 grav gun shots to kill a Stimtide. This goes to 27 shots with a toe in ruins. This bloats up to an incredible 40 shots with the 3++ shield up.

Biker squads by default can have two grav guns with a total of SIX shots. You need FIVE combi-gravs in the squad to make up the other 14 shots.

Are you opponents perhaps cheating?

You know you can have more then one squad of bikes right? I don't claim to know every facet of the C:SM but I do know I've been tabled playing tau lists with riptide wings and stormsurges against what scar's biker lists.

Learn more about your opponent's codex. You'll do better.

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"A single grav gun will do on average 1 wound so yes, a big squad of grav bikers scares me. "

The real math is this:

It takes 20 BS 4 grav gun shots to kill a Stimtide. This goes to 27 shots with a toe in ruins. This bloats up to an incredible 40 shots with the 3++ shield up.

Biker squads by default can have two grav guns with a total of SIX shots. You need FIVE combi-gravs in the squad to make up the other 14 shots.

Are you opponents perhaps cheating?

You know you can have more then one squad of bikes right? I don't claim to know every facet of the C:SM but I do know I've been tabled playing tau lists with riptide wings and stormsurges against what scar's biker lists.

Learn more about your opponent's codex. You'll do better.

Are you really going to claim that tau is a higher tier codex then SM right now?

No, but you shouldn't be getting pushed around so easily, either. WS bikers are definitely a top tier build, but ignore cover IA should be able to do a tremendous amount of damage. If you are using the burst cannon, maybe mix it up. Personally, I don't fear the burst cannon at all, as you have vastly inferior firepower to a scatterbike squad. I'm used to be tabled by turn 3-4, but that's by Tau and Eldar going with balls-out builds.

How to test your build. Find a BA or CSM player. With your Tau, there should be no enemy models left by turn 4. If there are, you are killy enough.

Martel732 wrote:
No, but you shouldn't be getting pushed around so easily, either. WS bikers are definitely a top tier build, but ignore cover IA should be able to do a tremendous amount of damage. If you are using the burst cannon, maybe mix it up. Personally, I don't fear the burst cannon at all, as you have vastly inferior firepower to a scatterbike squad. I'm used to be tabled by turn 3-4, but that's by Tau and Eldar going with balls-out builds.

If you go IA you get destroyed by demons, eldar, FMC, flyers and vehicles which accounts for most of the meta in my area. Literally the only thing you do better against is MEQ/TEQ spam and only if they chose to group up more then they should. But the gladius lists will still win by holding on to objectives with all of their ob-sec vehicles.

Im not saying tau is a lost cause or on the same tier as BA/orks, most of the tau players I have seen in tournaments including me when I chose to play tau end up in the middle of the field, I have yet to see a tau in the top 5.

I never said that tau does badly against BA, again I think BA could use some love

"If you go IA you get destroyed by demons, eldar, FMC, flyers and vehicles"

You know, you do have other units in your list. Better and cheaper options than conventional marines, even.You could go EWO with the IA and then go skyfire on the broadsides. You wouldn't crush pods as hard, but you delete one flyer a turn, even if they jink. I think the IA is so good at what it does, you have to use at least two. I don't see the burst cannon saving you from the other things you listed. I see HYMP and crisis suit weapons doing that.

The IA is even better vs the Gladius, because you can follow the wreck vehicle -> pie plate squad protocol. It's still uphill, because gladius is the best horde list EVAR.

That's a rock-paper-scissors problem. Gladius is exactly the kind of list that the IA sucks against, BTW. So is Nidzilla, but you don't see Nidzilla at very many tournaments, either.

I've found that Crisiswing lists shut down Gladius reasonably well, most of the time - but they kinda bite against scatbikes and Spiders, or against TWC.

That said, the problem with the IA is not that it dominates the tournament scene, but that in a great many non-tournament environments, it's the obviously ultimate choice.

EDIT: The HBC is a pretty good AA weapon, though.

jade_angel wrote:
That's a rock-paper-scissors problem. Gladius is exactly the kind of list that the IA sucks against, BTW. So is Nidzilla, but you don't see Nidzilla at very many tournaments, either.

I've found that Crisiswing lists shut down Gladius reasonably well, most of the time - but they kinda bite against scatbikes and Spiders, or against TWC.

That said, the problem with the IA is not that it dominates the tournament scene, but that in a great many non-tournament environments, it's the obviously ultimate choice.

EDIT: The HBC is a pretty good AA weapon, though.

IA is decent vs gladius, but only decent. Which doesn't cut it. The main failing is that when you crack the AV 11 crackerbox with missile pods, you are nuking cheapo tac marines who maybe have a grav cannon. Not a very good money shot.

Not super-efficient, no, but critical all the same: they hold objectives, and do it well, and that one grav cannon, multiplied by six squads, starts to get scary.

That's the trick with Gladius - no one shot, no matter how deadly, takes very much out of its overall capability. Compare that to BA: scratch that squad of 10 Death Company, or that Libby Dread, and there goes a lot of oomph, in one fell swoop. Tau kinda have that problem too, or at least stompy-robot-fest does, but that's greatly mitigated by the fact that the stompy robots take a crapload of killing.

Eldar mix it up: the WK hangs around forever. The Scatbikes and Warp Spiders crumple, being no more resilient than Marines mostly - if you can ever get a clean shot at them, and if anything's left alive to shoot back. Different problems, and they all screw things up for everything but the nastiest tournament lists.

To bring things full circle, this thread was not an attempt to balance the entire game; it was an attempt to fix the most egregious abuses associated with a unit that I really like, but that pisses off my opponents every time I even imply that I might have considered bringing more than one. Obviously, other nerfs and other buffs are desperately needed.

For example, there are units for CWE that need a buff - yes, really, despite how good their codex is overall, a few units are weaksauce. They shouldn't be. Tau have some weaksauce, too. BA and GK need some reworking. Orks, CSM and DE need some major-league rethinking that may involve goring a few sacred cows. So yeah, this is one rework among many that are needed.

Martel732 wrote:
"If you go IA you get destroyed by demons, eldar, FMC, flyers and vehicles"

You know, you do have other units in your list. Better and cheaper options than conventional marines, even.You could go EWO with the IA and then go skyfire on the broadsides. You wouldn't crush pods as hard, but you delete one flyer a turn, even if they jink.

Thats all well and good but it doesn't change the fact that the math supports the HBC being better against most targets.

Assuming BS4 and they are both nova charged, we can even assume the IA will never scatter.

Against AV14
HBC - .88HP
IA - .45HP

Against AV12
HBC - 1.33HP
IA - .74HP

Against AV10
HBC - 4HP
IA - .883HP

Against WK
HBC - .88W
IA - .37W

Against Demon Prince (t5, 4++)
HBC - 2.66W
IA - .833W


for units just assume the IA hits 4 models on average

Against TWC
HBC - 1.77W
IA - .92W

Against TEQ (T4 2+/5++)
HBC - 1.77W
IA - 1.85W

Against MEQ (T4 3+)
HBC - 2.66W
IA - 2.77W

Against GEQ (T3 4+)
HBC - 6.67W
IA -2.77W

The IA is only slightly ahead on MEQ/TEQ and like i said, this is assuming the blast never scatters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
Not super-efficient, no, but critical all the same: they hold objectives, and do it well, and that one grav cannon, multiplied by six squads, starts to get scary.

That's the trick with Gladius - no one shot, no matter how deadly, takes very much out of its overall capability. Compare that to BA: scratch that squad of 10 Death Company, or that Libby Dread, and there goes a lot of oomph, in one fell swoop. Tau kinda have that problem too, or at least stompy-robot-fest does, but that's greatly mitigated by the fact that the stompy robots take a crapload of killing.

Eldar mix it up: the WK hangs around forever. The Scatbikes and Warp Spiders crumple, being no more resilient than Marines mostly - if you can ever get a clean shot at them, and if anything's left alive to shoot back. Different problems, and they all screw things up for everything but the nastiest tournament lists.

To bring things full circle, this thread was not an attempt to balance the entire game; it was an attempt to fix the most egregious abuses associated with a unit that I really like, but that pisses off my opponents every time I even imply that I might have considered bringing more than one. Obviously, other nerfs and other buffs are desperately needed.

For example, there are units for CWE that need a buff - yes, really, despite how good their codex is overall, a few units are weaksauce. They shouldn't be. Tau have some weaksauce, too. BA and GK need some reworking. Orks, CSM and DE need some major-league rethinking that may involve goring a few sacred cows. So yeah, this is one rework among many that are needed.

I understand what you are saying but I would rather GW address what I see as the real issue. The formations that put the riptide over the top. without the riptide wing. you are failing a nova charge on average every turn and you cant put out the alpha strike to end all alpha strikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If theres a stanalone ( sans formations) unit that needs a nerf in the tau codex I would say its the stormsurge, not the riptide

It's interesting how you were able to produce the IA vs HBC math, but had no clue how many grav shots it actually took to bring one of these things down. From that, I can see why you would want the HBC. However, it makes this thing no less unkillable.

Martel732 wrote:
It's interesting how you were able to produce the IA vs HBC math, but had no clue how many grav shots it actually took to bring one of these things down. From that, I can see why you would want the HBC. However, it makes this thing no less unkillable.

White scars can reroll to hit/wound their primary target with the Hunting Force formation which is what my friend plays.

1Grav cannon = 3 shots * 8/9 (chance to hit) * 35/36 (chance to wound) * 4/6 (chance to save) * 4/6 (fnp) = 1.15 wounds

13 or 4-5 bikes worth of shots to kill a non nova-shielded riptide.

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's interesting how you were able to produce the IA vs HBC math, but had no clue how many grav shots it actually took to bring one of these things down. From that, I can see why you would want the HBC. However, it makes this thing no less unkillable.

White scars can reroll to hit/wound their primary target with the Hunting Force formation which is what my friend plays.

1Grav cannon = 3 shots * 8/9 (chance to hit) * 35/36 (chance to wound) * 4/6 (chance to save) * 4/6 (fnp) = 1.15 wounds

13 or 4-5 bikes worth of shots to kill a non nova-shielded riptide.

That's still a LOT of grav that has to get within 18". I suppose he's using minimum squads, though, right?

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's interesting how you were able to produce the IA vs HBC math, but had no clue how many grav shots it actually took to bring one of these things down. From that, I can see why you would want the HBC. However, it makes this thing no less unkillable.

White scars can reroll to hit/wound their primary target with the Hunting Force formation which is what my friend plays.

1Grav cannon = 3 shots * 8/9 (chance to hit) * 35/36 (chance to wound) * 4/6 (chance to save) * 4/6 (fnp) = 1.15 wounds

13 or 4-5 bikes worth of shots to kill a non nova-shielded riptide.

That's still a LOT of grav that has to get within 18". I suppose he's using minimum squads, though, right?

A few min squads and then his death-star with a lib conclave to deny a large chunk of the field. (Turns out that force weapons + hammerhand kill riptides pretty well).

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's interesting how you were able to produce the IA vs HBC math, but had no clue how many grav shots it actually took to bring one of these things down. From that, I can see why you would want the HBC. However, it makes this thing no less unkillable.

White scars can reroll to hit/wound their primary target with the Hunting Force formation which is what my friend plays.

1Grav cannon = 3 shots * 8/9 (chance to hit) * 35/36 (chance to wound) * 4/6 (chance to save) * 4/6 (fnp) = 1.15 wounds

13 or 4-5 bikes worth of shots to kill a non nova-shielded riptide.

That's still a LOT of grav that has to get within 18". I suppose he's using minimum squads, though, right?

A few min squads and then his death-star with a lib conclave to deny a large chunk of the field. (Turns out that force weapons + hammerhand kill riptides pretty well).

Libby conclave took a nerfbat to the face, but invisibility is still really good to get basically auto-casted. Sounds like he's allying GK as well. Or is he just picking daemonology?

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's interesting how you were able to produce the IA vs HBC math, but had no clue how many grav shots it actually took to bring one of these things down. From that, I can see why you would want the HBC. However, it makes this thing no less unkillable.

White scars can reroll to hit/wound their primary target with the Hunting Force formation which is what my friend plays.

1Grav cannon = 3 shots * 8/9 (chance to hit) * 35/36 (chance to wound) * 4/6 (chance to save) * 4/6 (fnp) = 1.15 wounds

13 or 4-5 bikes worth of shots to kill a non nova-shielded riptide.

That's still a LOT of grav that has to get within 18". I suppose he's using minimum squads, though, right?

A few min squads and then his death-star with a lib conclave to deny a large chunk of the field. (Turns out that force weapons + hammerhand kill riptides pretty well).

Libby conclave took a nerfbat to the face, but invisibility is still really good to get basically auto-casted.

If ITC and nova decide to use the GW faq this is true. However there's quite a bit of pushback.

Of course there is.

Why isn't the Tyrannofex broken?