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Martel732 wrote:
IA is never overcharged as it is. The basic profile is way too good.

Unless it's facing gladius where ordinance and +1 str becomes actually quite awesome. You will almost always be hitting 2 razors with a single direct hit - rerolling the pen. Each with the potential to 1 shot because ap2. However...unlike some dakkanuaghts here...I've basically figured I'm better off firing my broadsides into the razors and 1 shotting the unit inside with my IA. Tau doesn't lose to gladius...tau doesn't care about gladius. Tau loses to super-friends death-stars unless they get lucky with a SS stomp. Then again...what shooting army doesn't lose to super friends death-stars?

Also...I've basically figured if you want str 7 shooting it's everywhere in the tau codex. It's AP2 that the codex actually limits in an affordable way- and riptides with marker support are actually the cheapest way to deal with heavily armored units. EWO combo with it is game breaking as it hard counters deep strike marines...basically the only viable source of deep-strike in the game.

Martel732 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
balancing is simple -> Make them vehicles / walkers.
Give them 3HP AV 13/12/12 and you are done.

It's simple until the Tau players start in on the fluff reason why it shouldn't be that way.

Or, alternatively, everyone complains because you need S7 to hurt it now, while S3 can potentially hurt T6. In a lot of the threads where that idea's come up before, that complaint has come up.

But, on the gripping hand, AV13 does succeed quite handily in making it immune to light weapons but potentially insta-killed by heavy ones, so it mostly succeeds in the role of "draw lascannons and similar stuff away from the Crisis Suits". Would AV13/5++ be too much? (Oh, and there's the Stimulant Injector, too. Vehicles can't have FNP, so would that give IWND? Would you pay 35 points to have IWND on an Ironclad Dread?)

Scatbikes will get on it's side and HP it out through the AV 12. AV 13/12/12 walker is actually a huge, huge nerf.

Martel732 wrote:
Scatbikes will get on it's side and HP it out through the AV 12. AV 13/12/12 walker is actually a huge, huge nerf.

no kidding...and any penetrating hit means it's not shooting an ap2 pie plate. It would become practically unusable and you'd see a whole lot more farsite bombs...or SS spam. Not a great way yo deal with this. The best way to deal with this is a cost increase to around 275 points. Or a wound decrease. to 3 or 4.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

EWO combo with it is game breaking as it hard counters deep strike marines...basically the only viable source of deep-strike in the game.

Khorne forbid we should have some change going on, maybe make the space marine player use a couple other formations that don't rely on deep strike?

I like martel's idea of bring the Cyclic Ion Raker of sorts to the riptide. I personally think it needs to be natively stronger because of the nova engine than the ghost keel, but that can be 6 more inches in range, or 1 improved AP so it still drops basic marines well. But that would make its weapons more consistent with range. It doesn't make much sense to run plasma/fusion with 18" range, when you can be at 36" or 72" when SMS has ignores cover at 30" no LOS.

But with that, i'd like the Ion-head adjusted to make ranged fire compensated for somehow, but on a vehicle platform which people agree is the weaker place.


PS i don't know why the entire this is in the quote box..

What about this:

WS2 BS3 S5 T5 W3 I2 A3 Ld 9 Sv 3+/6++ (Nova 4++), Jet Pack Infantry, 210ppm
Weapons and options as mentioned in my initial post, except no stims anymore.

I think that's too much durability lost at the price, but my opinion seems to be in the minority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pumaman1 wrote:
<kersnippity>
I like martel's idea of bring the Cyclic Ion Raker of sorts to the riptide. I personally think it needs to be natively stronger because of the nova engine than the ghost keel, but that can be 6 more inches in range, or 1 improved AP so it still drops basic marines well. But that would make its weapons more consistent with range. It doesn't make much sense to run plasma/fusion with 18" range, when you can be at 36" or 72" when SMS has ignores cover at 30" no LOS.

But with that, i'd like the Ion-head adjusted to make ranged fire compensated for somehow, but on a vehicle platform which people agree is the weaker place.
<snip>

I did propose a slightly modified CIR, actually. Range chopped to 24" (use the HBC if you want a bit more range), Overcharge is AP3, nova-charge is AP2, but base is still AP4. (But Heavy 6 like the Ghostkeel).

jade_angel wrote:
What about this:

WS2 BS3 S5 T5 W3 I2 A3 Ld 9 Sv 3+/6++ (Nova 4++), Jet Pack Infantry, 210ppm
Weapons and options as mentioned in my initial post, except no stims anymore.

I think that's too much durability lost at the price, but my opinion seems to be in the minority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pumaman1 wrote:
<kersnippity>
I like martel's idea of bring the Cyclic Ion Raker of sorts to the riptide. I personally think it needs to be natively stronger because of the nova engine than the ghost keel, but that can be 6 more inches in range, or 1 improved AP so it still drops basic marines well. But that would make its weapons more consistent with range. It doesn't make much sense to run plasma/fusion with 18" range, when you can be at 36" or 72" when SMS has ignores cover at 30" no LOS.

But with that, i'd like the Ion-head adjusted to make ranged fire compensated for somehow, but on a vehicle platform which people agree is the weaker place.
<snip>

I did propose a slightly modified CIR, actually. Range chopped to 24" (use the HBC if you want a bit more range), Overcharge is AP3, nova-charge is AP2, but base is still AP4. (But Heavy 6 like the Ghostkeel).

To your question, I also think that is too much durability lost. likely 1 vindicator/demolisher shot and ID riptide 5/6 times at too many increased points. if its 3w 3+ 6++/4++ with nova (did you make it so nova doesn't remove wounds?), it just wont make it a turn, and would make it a never take unit to me. that many points, i'd rather run multiple stealth teams. same base save essentially. and 3 wounds for 90 points, and infiltrate.

jade_angel wrote:
What about this:

WS2 BS3 S5 T5 W3 I2 A3 Ld 9 Sv 3+/6++ (Nova 4++), Jet Pack Infantry, 210ppm
Weapons and options as mentioned in my initial post, except no stims anymore.

I think that's too much durability lost at the price, but my opinion seems to be in the minority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pumaman1 wrote:
<kersnippity>
I like martel's idea of bring the Cyclic Ion Raker of sorts to the riptide. I personally think it needs to be natively stronger because of the nova engine than the ghost keel, but that can be 6 more inches in range, or 1 improved AP so it still drops basic marines well. But that would make its weapons more consistent with range. It doesn't make much sense to run plasma/fusion with 18" range, when you can be at 36" or 72" when SMS has ignores cover at 30" no LOS.

But with that, i'd like the Ion-head adjusted to make ranged fire compensated for somehow, but on a vehicle platform which people agree is the weaker place.
<snip>

I did propose a slightly modified CIR, actually. Range chopped to 24" (use the HBC if you want a bit more range), Overcharge is AP3, nova-charge is AP2, but base is still AP4. (But Heavy 6 like the Ghostkeel).

Too much nerf. Right now it has elite range, elite durability, elite mobility for an artiliery peice, and good damage output. Anything with elite range and durability that is also mobile is broken. Reduce it's range on the IA and remove it's jetpack and I think thats a good place to start. IA 36"" and only moves 6 inch per turn witohut nova reactor thrust move -1 W and I think we have a balanced unit.

That's close to what I did in my original post, though not quite. I dropped the IA to 24", but left the jet pack: my thought it's that it's a giant Crisis Suit, not a giant Broadside. It's not meant to be an artillery piece by my reckoning. But then, maybe adjusting it to be one, while leaving the Ghostkeel as the close-support heavyweight makes more sense.

I didn't reduce it to W4, but that's possibly doable. The Ghostkeel is only W4, and I don't think it's too squishy to do its job, so that's probably fine. But, the consensus seems to be that T6/2+ is too much and 180ppm is too cheap, but I think T5/3+ at 180ppm isn't enough (the Ghostkeel is considerably cheaper, FWIW).

 Xenomancers wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

Too much nerf. Right now it has elite range, elite durability, elite mobility for an artiliery peice, and good damage output. Anything with elite range and durability that is also mobile is broken. Reduce it's range on the IA and remove it's jetpack and I think thats a good place to start. IA 36"" and only moves 6 inch per turn witohut nova reactor thrust move -1 W and I think we have a balanced unit.

It cannot thrust move without being a jetback/jetbike. So it would have to keep its jetpack to have a thrust move in the assault phase. Further, its entire deal is its a large as can be made "crisis suit" by virtue of its experimental reactor. If you take away the jetpack, then you have the stormsurge, at armor 3+.

Honestly, just remove stims, just-like vectored-retro-thrusters, can't take on such a big thing, and its 1/3rd or more vulnerable, and the nova will hurt/kill it because it cannot be mitigated. Or players won't risk it at 1 or 2 wounds left.

MAYBE make armorbane special rule weapons hurt monstrous creatures d3, but that goes and hurts other factions more than it hurts the riptide. But would match the fluff of pask in a vanquisher tank dropping riptides by shooting the pilots out.

I think, broadly, that I'm OK with Armourbane, and maybe Ordnance and Melta dealing extra damage to things with a T value. (Multi-wound infantry, cavalry, beasts in addition to MC/GC - no, your Chapter Master really does not want to be hit with a Demolisher Cannon.)

I'd kinda want Tyranids to have some slightly more reliable way to at least stun tanks from a distance, but 'nids need some buffs anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
IA is never overcharged as it is. The basic profile is way too good.

Yeah guys, watch out for this marginally-better plasmagun. It's wayyyyyy too good.

What if it just cost a lot more? Maybe took up a LoW slot? Make it a real choice to bring instead of an automatic pick every game.

jade_angel wrote:
I think, broadly, that I'm OK with Armourbane, and maybe Ordnance and Melta dealing extra damage to things with a T value. .

All models where this is true should be vehicles instead of monsters really.

I just read "would you pay 35 points for IWND on a ironclad dread?" phrased in a way to imply its so ridiculously bad that nobody would ever dream of it, let alone put it in a codex.

grot riggers. that is all.

"marginally-better plasmagun" its double the range, 2 more strength and large blast. That's pretty significant.

I think the bottom line is that it shouldn't be more durable than a land raider or gorkanaut if its going to be cheaper points wise. As it stands its so cost efficient that I haven't seen a tau list in the past year without one or 2. Its so good that nobody even remembers that tau have tanks.

Melta doing extra damage to GMCs at melta range sounds like a good thing. I mean, if I stood a few feet from a riptide and shot a beam of melta into its chest where the pilot is located, I don't see how that wouldn't have the same effect as if I shot said melta into the cockpit of a land raider. Pretty sure its less metal between the tau and the exterior than a land raider, and im positive the metal isn't as strong as armoured ceramite.

edit: actually now that I think about it all vehicles should be able to shoot their guns at different targets. that's a pretty big problem between them and GMCs

jade_angel wrote:
. Would AV13/5++ be too much? (Oh, and there's the Stimulant Injector, too. Vehicles can't have FNP, so would that give IWND? Would you pay 35 points to have IWND on an Ironclad Dread?)

O hell no. The whole idea was to nerf the beast and bring it back in line with all the other walkers as it should be in the first place. Not to make it one of best walkers in the game .

What do you count as "in line with other walkers"? AV11/3HP/open-topped/6++ like the Penitent Engine? AV12/3HP like the Dreadnought? AV13/3HP like the Ironclad Dread? I'll point out that all of those are cheaper.

AV10/2HP/open-topped/5++ like a War Walker? I'll point out that those are more in line with Crisis Suits (stronger/weaker, that's actually debatable).

Don Savik: I wasn't being sarcastic there. That was a serious question. Would 35 points for IWND on a 3HP walker be a fair price? It's certainly not too cheap - I'd argue it's probably too expensive. Why? Because IWND is simply not as strong as FNP, because you have to survive to use it, and can only regenerate 1 wound or HP, while FNP can, potentially, stop every single wound. (Yep, FNP is good. It's debatably too good, actually.) Are Ironclad Dreadnoughts broken? Are they broken when Iron Hands take them? (An Iron Hands ICDread has IWND, out of the box, after all.)

Also, to clarify, we're talking about the Riptide, not the Stormsurge, here. The Riptide is an MC, not a GC, and cannot fire its guns at multiple targets. If it takes a target lock and shielded missile drones, the drones can shoot one target while the suit shoots another, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that. It is a bit too good, which is the entire dang point of the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thought here might be to delete it entirely. After all, if you have the Stormsurge as the sit-back-and-shoot suit, and the Ghostkeel as close-range fire support and fire magnet, what purpose does the Riptide serve?

I think this is where the disconnect is coming from. Folks hate having a T6/W5/2+/3++/FNP model sitting back 72" away, puking pie plates. You can't kill it, you can't escape it, you can't easily get close because it dances away. Got it. That's frustrating as all hell, I fully agree.

Re-read my original proposal. It gets rid of the 3++, and it also - importantly - gets rid of the ability to sit 72" away. Now yes, it still has the jet pack, but with a maximum range of 30", that's almost certainly less of a problem. It's also now Infantry, so it does not have Smash, and does not have AP2 melee attacks. Also doesn't have Hammer of Wrath or Fear, if that ever matters.

So the question I posed is this: Given the loss of the 3++, and the reduction of maximum range (and a nerf that makes the overcharged ion pie plate AP3 vice AP2), is T6/W5/2+/5++ still too much at 180ppm?

 oldzoggy wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
I think, broadly, that I'm OK with Armourbane, and maybe Ordnance and Melta dealing extra damage to things with a T value. .

All models where this is true should be vehicles instead of monsters really.

So....you want all monsters to become vehicles?

 Don Savik wrote:

"marginally-better plasmagun" its double the range, 2 more strength and large blast. That's pretty significant.

We're talking about the primary profile, try to keep up.

How about we just nerf the range of the Ion and make it a 10 point upgrade?

The issue is that it has great damage output and range. Let's hit the latter part.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How about we just nerf the range of the Ion and make it a 10 point upgrade?

The issue is that it has great damage output and range. Let's hit the latter part.

jade_angel wrote:May replace the Heavy Burst Cannon with a Riptide Cyclic Ion Raker: 10 pts
May take up to two items from the Support Systems List: (Costs and restrictions as per Codex)

Heavy Burst Cannon: R30 S6 AP5, Heavy 10 --OR-- R30 S6 AP4, Heavy 15, Rending, Nova-Charge (EDIT: increase to S6, nova-charged profile always has AP4)
Riptide Cyclic Ion Raker: R24 S7 AP4, Heavy 6 (EDIT: slightly different from Ghostkeel version)
R24 S8 AP3, Heavy 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot (EDIT: gains AP3 when overcharged)
R24 S9 AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge, Long Cycle Time
Long Cycle Time: This fire mode may never be used with Interceptor.

Doing precisely that was in the original proposal, though I did modify it to have AP3 on the Overcharged version per general consensus. The Ghostkeel's ion weapon (which is what I based this on) is still AP4 when Overcharged.

I still don't think it should have AP2 without nova charge. Make them make some decisions with the nova charge, instead of perma-3++

Martel732 wrote:
I still don't think it should have AP2 without nova charge. Make them make some decisions with the nova charge, instead of perma-3++

That's also why I dropped the 3++ like a hot rock. The Riptide should be resistant to small arms in the extreme, but fairly vulnerable to anything with AP2. The nova-charged shield pretty much removes that weakness, thus, it needs to go.

I was being minimalist. Even if it had the 3++, still dropping the overcharge of the IA to AP 3 will force more decisions. Alternatively, you could make the NOVA charge shield 4++, like the Stormsurge.

All true. I think the combination of dropping to AP3, losing the 3++, dropping the range by a lot and changing MC to Infantry will make its high durability versus non-AP2 weaponry (and solid durability even against AP1/2) much more manageable.

pm713 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
I think, broadly, that I'm OK with Armourbane, and maybe Ordnance and Melta dealing extra damage to things with a T value. .

All models where this is true should be vehicles instead of monsters really.

So....you want all monsters to become vehicles?

No I just want those who give you the feel of "why doesn't haywire or melta work against these bastards" and " poisoning that seems to bee a bit odd" to be vehicles.

Try to keep up? Well I bet you're just a swell guy to play 40k with.

Seriously why discuss the non overcharged weapons at all? I have personally never seen a tau not overcharge all their riptides as its a 1 in 6 chance to potentially take a wound that they get 2 saves against. The risk/reward is nonexistant. Even if you take a single wound on a 5 wound model, the fire power you dish out more than enough makes up for it.

I don't think anyone would complain about a 72" in. range plasma cannon with skyfire/interceptor. You can't convince me that its a mediocre gun.

 Don Savik wrote:
Try to keep up? Well I bet you're just a swell guy to play 40k with.

Seriously why discuss the non overcharged weapons at all? I have personally never seen a tau not overcharge all their riptides as its a 1 in 6 chance to potentially take a wound that they get 2 saves against. The risk/reward is nonexistant. Even if you take a single wound on a 5 wound model, the fire power you dish out more than enough makes up for it.

I don't think anyone would complain about a 72" in. range plasma cannon with skyfire/interceptor. You can't convince me that its a mediocre gun.

Umm. Are you sure you know what you're talking about? The nova succeeds on a 3+, and only FNP can be taken against it.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
Try to keep up? Well I bet you're just a swell guy to play 40k with.

Seriously why discuss the non overcharged weapons at all? I have personally never seen a tau not overcharge all their riptides as its a 1 in 6 chance to potentially take a wound that they get 2 saves against. The risk/reward is nonexistant. Even if you take a single wound on a 5 wound model, the fire power you dish out more than enough makes up for it.

I don't think anyone would complain about a 72" in. range plasma cannon with skyfire/interceptor. You can't convince me that its a mediocre gun.

Umm. Are you sure you know what you're talking about? The nova succeeds on a 3+, and only FNP can be taken against it.

I think he is talking about using the overcharge and not the nova profile for the Ion Accelerator. The Overcharge is Str 8 with gets hot which frees up their nova charge for stuff like 3+ invuln or 4d6 thrust move.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
Try to keep up? Well I bet you're just a swell guy to play 40k with.

Seriously why discuss the non overcharged weapons at all? I have personally never seen a tau not overcharge all their riptides as its a 1 in 6 chance to potentially take a wound that they get 2 saves against. The risk/reward is nonexistant. Even if you take a single wound on a 5 wound model, the fire power you dish out more than enough makes up for it.

I don't think anyone would complain about a 72" in. range plasma cannon with skyfire/interceptor. You can't convince me that its a mediocre gun.

Umm. Are you sure you know what you're talking about? The nova succeeds on a 3+, and only FNP can be taken against it.

I think he is talking about using the overcharge and not the nova profile for the Ion Accelerator. The Overcharge is Str 8 with gets hot which frees up their nova charge for stuff like 3+ invuln or 4d6 thrust move.

That makes a lot more sense then. That's what I get for posting so late