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So in 40k, Chaos is the big bad, ultimate evil and is extremely powerful. But, theres all these other factions and threats that still feels very important to the narrative and to the Imperium.

This isn't the case with AoS. Chaos controls and has conquered almost all of the realms. Every battle and every story in AoS centers around how the various factions deal with this problem. My issue is that this is such a predominant feature that it makes the setting very boring and predictable. For example, the realmgate books that I've read all revolve around battles where Chaos fight X. You might occasionally get Destruction fights Chaos but then also Order; but that's about as much variety as you get. Theres very little focus or attention paid to Destruction or Death or Order fighting eachother, even less on the internal fighting. They're all consumed by this "can we beat Archaon" question, who has to all intents and purposes already won, so theres no tension over Chaos succeeding because Chaos has already won and would end the setting if they did win.

This means that every time they try to spin out a threat about that rascal Nagash building a black pyramid or Gordrakk going on a Waagh, these come across as very small,. trivial and inconsequential parts of the story. How can anything they do matter when most of their own realms are ruled by Chaos, when everybody else is on the cusp of being wiped out by Chaos and when you're very aware that Archaon could just show up and kill either of them pretty handily. Its not like how the Hive Fleets, or the Tau, or various Ork Waagh feel like really big deals in 40k. This is because Chaos isn't such an intense and immediate threat that these things are irrelevant. For 40k to be like AoS would be like if Abaddon had Terra under siege, most of the galaxy had fallen to Chaos and oh we've got some aliens doing some stuff over there.

Chaos is simply far too central to the plot and it really overshadows anything GW tries to do with the secondary villains or to differentiate the various Order factions. You certainly don't get any Order factions fighting, unlike 40k where you have Tau, Eldar and Imperials fighting eachother even though they're all "kind of" good guys relative to everybody else.

Personally I think they should have Chaos driven back into the All Points and be a constant menace to each of the realms; but not this all encompassing empire that smothers the story. That way you can have more stuff like inter realm wars, let the plans of Gorkamorka and Nagash figure more heavily in the plot. But as long as you have Chaos be that powerful it just won't work.

All narratives have to start somewhere. This one started with Chaos being supreme. The narrative's only a year old, give it some time.

You are really hung up on this aren't you?

Chaos doesn't control most of the realms so much as it has a presence due to the fact that they had been broken through, there's been infighting between them, Archaon does what Archaon wants.

Chaos is not as united as it once was. Skaven, some Chaos Lords and Archaon all have different motives that will make things worse for itself.
I mean Slaanesh is no where to be seen. A Chaos god for crying out loud is missing!

For my part I'm really enjoying the setting, the theme of breaking the yoke of chaos rather than being doomed to succumb to it has been very refreshing.

I really like the new background story, Chaos being forced on the back foot makes a nice break from the mould. Yes I'd like some things to be expanded upon but after a year it could never have the depth of backstory that 40k has accumulated in thirty years

I have found for me personally the backstory is far and away the worst part of AoS, There really is nothing about it I find compelling or even interesting. BUT its also completely unnecessary to enjoying the game. I just use it as a new way to play my remaining warhammer armies until I get rid of them.

You didn't care much for Warhammer Fantasy, did you?

They're taking cues from a setting and world where Chaos really was powerful. If you were one of the Reiksguard and you saw a Chaos knight charging for you, you'd do what your mother trained you very patiently not to do while you were a toddler. These were centuries-old Bad Dudes wielding daemons bound into impossible weapons that might cut through your armor like it was butter, might scream insane prophecies at you, or might just grow a mouth and eat your arm when you tried to parry. They're wearing armor that never comes off because it fused with them. They're not even strictly mortal any more; they're Chaos space marines in a setting that does not have space marines.

In Age of Sigmar, of course, you have space marines to go toe to toe with them, and the threat of Chaos has suffered as a result. It used to be this creeping, malefic doom. You can fight off an incursion, but you'll be dealing with scattered raiders and monsters lurking in the woods for decades. The Wastes creep further south each time that happens. Children are sometimes born with horrific mutations, and there's always a parent or two who can't bear to give them over to a witch hunter and leave it for the beastmen to adopt instead - and ten or fifteen years later it comes back with a War-Herd and eats dear old Mom and Dad. Orc Waaaghs! are dangerous - hell, goblin Waaaghs! are dangerous, one of them nearly overran the Empire. Skaven are a constant, insidious threat that most people don't even believe in. Every now and then, a vampire wants to be Emperor and everyone has to worry about zombies...but all of that pales next to Chaos, because while none of these threats can ever really be defeated, Chaos is the overarching villain, the sword hanging over everyone's head. Sooner or later, it will fall.

In Age of Sigmar, they've had the Realms already conquered by it, and everything's got this whole weird magical flavor that used to be seen only in the Chaos Wastes. It's like a zombie movie, really - Chaos is the setting as much as the villain. If anything, I'd say they made Chaos feel less ominous and powerful because of that. You didn't see people smacking Chaos Warriors around in old-school Warhammer, and that's necessary to sell the strengths of the Stormcast, so Chaos Warriors get smacked around. It always feels weird looking at people's reports and seeing that these guys are the new cannon fodder .

I think most of us can recall the fantasy trope of a lost age where magic was more powerful, the gods walked the realms with their armies, and everything was generally more epic in scale. In AoS that isn't a lost age, that's the age they're living in. I will always love the WHFB setting for what it was, and to tell the truth I still like it better than the AoS setting, but that doesn't mean I can't like the latter as well.

I didn't mean that as a slam at the Age of Sigmar story - I have my own issues with it, but this isn't really the time or place - and I definitely agree that they went for the high-fantasy 'lost age' approach; I'm just amused that Chaos was, effectively, de-powered when comparing it between the settings and then there's a thread saying it's still too powerful

I mean, it's possible to have the Chaos corruption literally beaten out of you in Age of Sigmar; that would have been pretty unthinkable before!

 Spinner wrote:
I didn't mean that as a slam at the Age of Sigmar story - I have my own issues with it, but this isn't really the time or place - and I definitely agree that they went for the high-fantasy 'lost age' approach; I'm just amused that Chaos was, effectively, de-powered when comparing it between the settings and then there's a thread saying it's still too powerful

I mean, it's possible to have the Chaos corruption literally beaten out of you in Age of Sigmar; that would have been pretty unthinkable before!

Still loved that little short story with the Seraphon vs Nurgle troops, and the Slanns magic imbued within the troops that died managed to cure the plagues and diseases as they went against them. It's literally spitting in the Chaos Gods face right there and it would've been unthinkable in WHFB that's for sure.

Yeah - if there's a change from both Fantasy and 40k, it's that Chaos has finally met it's match. While the Realm of Chaos is indeed plentiful and more than willing to vomit horrors in your face, their victory is no longer inevitable because the Stormcast and Seraphon can both match the eternal, never dying demons with their own powers. This has been the major hinge of the grimdark setting, in that you can't actually fight against the end - Chaos will always have more horrors (and also there are always more Orks, Goblins, Tyranids, etc).

TBH they could have just had Sigmar return as the God-King in Fantasy and introduced the Stormcast that way without too much trouble, but if they had to advance the fluff, I'm at least glad to see that they did so in a way that doesn't just rehash the whole 'Chaos is inevitable, everyone is just fighting a losing battle to buy as much time as possible'. I expect Chaos will continue to be driven back, although Acharon will remain a constant threat - probably building his own kingdom and ruling it as a sort of dark counterpart to Sigmar.

In the end, I can't help but feel it's an improvement with Chaos being thrown back - although Chaos players might not enjoy getting smacked around for a few years in story.

Agh, however powerful chaos.

It gives you a strong reason as to why dwarves and men etc have had to fight together. Why elves might have to stand alongside men, even dwarves and such.

Nudges them to a counter aide, but also leaves room for internal conflict

 RuneGrey wrote:
Yeah - if there's a change from both Fantasy and 40k, it's that Chaos has finally met it's match. While the Realm of Chaos is indeed plentiful and more than willing to vomit horrors in your face, their victory is no longer inevitable because the Stormcast and Seraphon can both match the eternal, never dying demons with their own powers. This has been the major hinge of the grimdark setting, in that you can't actually fight against the end - Chaos will always have more horrors (and also there are always more Orks, Goblins, Tyranids, etc).

TBH they could have just had Sigmar return as the God-King in Fantasy and introduced the Stormcast that way without too much trouble, but if they had to advance the fluff, I'm at least glad to see that they did so in a way that doesn't just rehash the whole 'Chaos is inevitable, everyone is just fighting a losing battle to buy as much time as possible'. I expect Chaos will continue to be driven back, although Acharon will remain a constant threat - probably building his own kingdom and ruling it as a sort of dark counterpart to Sigmar.

In the end, I can't help but feel it's an improvement with Chaos being thrown back - although Chaos players might not enjoy getting smacked around for a few years in story.

Same that's why I prefer it as well and as Death player I am glad that they are actually doing something for once instead of being a side note of just sitting in the corner of the map making mean faces at the empire. Plus I am glad that the humans are actually fighting and pushing chaos back, they make the point in fluff that the reason why sigmar is doing well this time is that he learned from his previous defeats including what happened in whfb.

Plus there is possible "redemption" for chaos warriors if they come across a celestant prime.

The souls aspect is something I'm really enjoying in this new setting

 RuneGrey wrote:
Yeah - if there's a change from both Fantasy and 40k, it's that Chaos has finally met it's match. While the Realm of Chaos is indeed plentiful and more than willing to vomit horrors in your face, their victory is no longer inevitable because the Stormcast and Seraphon can both match the eternal, never dying demons with their own powers. This has been the major hinge of the grimdark setting, in that you can't actually fight against the end - Chaos will always have more horrors (and also there are always more Orks, Goblins, Tyranids, etc).

TBH they could have just had Sigmar return as the God-King in Fantasy and introduced the Stormcast that way without too much trouble, but if they had to advance the fluff, I'm at least glad to see that they did so in a way that doesn't just rehash the whole 'Chaos is inevitable, everyone is just fighting a losing battle to buy as much time as possible'. I expect Chaos will continue to be driven back, although Acharon will remain a constant threat - probably building his own kingdom and ruling it as a sort of dark counterpart to Sigmar.

In the end, I can't help but feel it's an improvement with Chaos being thrown back - although Chaos players might not enjoy getting smacked around for a few years in story.

I didnt even think chaos was in 40k any more. They came and lost to the imperalguard or something then went into the space hole to hide 13 times. Hell they are added just to make space marine sound cool.


40k story a chaos lord super powerful and who is thousands of years old has yet to meet his match. John marine shows up spanks him then wins, good book. Hell the daemon primarchs are litterally being held down and written on while they cry.... Chaos has not been a threat in warhammer for many many years the books read like fan fiction. No matter how bad ass someone is they lose to space marine, sigmarines.

They are such a non threat that the dark angles vs space wolves may end the galaxy they are almost litterally removing chaos. This is how to find out if something will be good or crap.

1: If it was real would it be worthless in a real fight?
2 Can young kids pretend to save everyone and everyone needs them?
3: Does it follow the social norm?
4: is it loyal to the goverment and royal family ect " british love this"

If the anwser is yes well congrats yes well then it shall be good.

Apart from the end times.

Oh, and laughed my ass off at "British love this".
If we're talking stereotypes, aren't you a bit rude for a Canuck?

RoperPG wrote:

If we're talking stereotypes, aren't you a bit rude for a Canuck?

Isn't it against the law for Canadians to mock the Queen?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
, so theres no tension over Chaos succeeding because Chaos has already won and would end the setting if they did win.

Well "lucky" us GW wrote it so that nobody by definition CAN win. So there's no worry about end of the setting therefore...

Chaos can't win, order can't win, death can't win, destruction can't win. Eternal stalemate.

MongooseMatt wrote:

RoperPG wrote:

If we're talking stereotypes, aren't you a bit rude for a Canuck?

Isn't it against the law for Canadians to mock the Queen?

No one under the age of 60ish showed up when the old lady showed up. i lived in halifax at the time it was basically a senior center that day.

tneva82 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
, so theres no tension over Chaos succeeding because Chaos has already won and would end the setting if they did win.

Well "lucky" us GW wrote it so that nobody by definition CAN win. So there's no worry about end of the setting therefore...

Chaos can't win, order can't win, death can't win, destruction can't win. Eternal stalemate.

I'm guessing you've only lightly skimmed the lore.

I'm trying to follow this conversation, even showing ignored list posts, but what the hell happened to the line of discussion here? Maybe I'm just not picking up on sarcasm? Is this about the Realmgate Wars books or the battle tomes or the campaign?

 VeteranNoob wrote:
I'm trying to follow this conversation, even showing ignored list posts, but what the hell happened to the line of discussion here? Maybe I'm just not picking up on sarcasm? Is this about the Realmgate Wars books or the battle tomes or the campaign?

I think it's about the setting and the story in Age of Sigmar overall.

 VeteranNoob wrote:
I'm trying to follow this conversation, even showing ignored list posts, but what the hell happened to the line of discussion here? Maybe I'm just not picking up on sarcasm? Is this about the Realmgate Wars books or the battle tomes or the campaign?

Chaos being the supreme enemy limits the story (no Order vs Order fights) and it makes the Death/Destruction threat seem irrelevant.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 VeteranNoob wrote:
I'm trying to follow this conversation, even showing ignored list posts, but what the hell happened to the line of discussion here? Maybe I'm just not picking up on sarcasm? Is this about the Realmgate Wars books or the battle tomes or the campaign?

Chaos being the supreme enemy limits the story (no Order vs Order fights) and it makes the Death/Destruction threat seem irrelevant.

No it doesn't. Order can still fight Order and the other factions can still do things.

It doesn't limit the story at all. It provides other stories. Right now death and destruction are not in the forefront. That doesn't mean that they won't be and that attention cannot shift.

Nagash seems like he wants to be hiding a bit to prepare some 'surprises' against the gods who take their followers souis.

Destruction doesn't have any major plans right now and are just enjoying the carnage and the fun it brings them.

Just because chaos is the supreme bad guy doesn't limit anything. It seems pretty clear that there will always be infighting with chaos, that order is only bound by the fact they share a common ally. Destruction will just destruct either others or themselves. Death is the only one that seems pretty unified but that can change

 namiel wrote:
Just because chaos is the supreme bad guy doesn't limit anything. It seems pretty clear that there will always be infighting with chaos, that order is only bound by the fact they share a common ally. Destruction will just destruct either others or themselves. Death is the only one that seems pretty unified but that can change

Actually death has some problems, such as the Flesh Eater Courts either serving Nagash, themselves, or their 'king', along with Mannfred being.. Mannfred.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Just because chaos is the supreme bad guy doesn't limit anything. It seems pretty clear that there will always be infighting with chaos, that order is only bound by the fact they share a common ally. Destruction will just destruct either others or themselves. Death is the only one that seems pretty unified but that can change

Actually death has some problems, such as the Flesh Eater Courts either serving Nagash, themselves, or their 'king', along with Mannfred being.. Mannfred.

Great! so now you have no excuse within the narrative as to why any army is fighting eachother. all you gotta do is forge a little narritive