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I have a game on Friday and due to time constraints, my friend and I decided to play at 1000 points, not 2000 or 1850 like we normally do. I feel like this hurts me as a Daemons player because any of the big guys I like to bring easily make up about 1/3 of my army and while they're more powerful at lower points due to the lower amount of enemies, I feel like not having as much support guys around them will hurt.

I'd think yes. Don'T quote me on it tho.

At 1000pts a grey knights player would have laughable low unit count of the table.

Meanwhile at 1000pts a guards player can have 100+ infantry behind an aegis with heavy and special weapons in the squads and tank support.

Last time I played a 1000pts game I got completely cromped by necrons. barely was able to kill any of them. First time I played agaisnt them so didnt help that I had no clue what to target.

Hard to say. I think in small pt games you need numbers in the first place.

GK and 30k armies have a tough time in general at low points totals, Deathwatch and 'normal' Space Marine armies don't have the flexibility/options and can be easily demolished by skew if the game is too small (my favourite example is a 500pt game where I put power-armoured bodies on the table and my opponent chose to put out a Destroyer Cult, I was tabled in two turns). Most other armies have low enough minimum requirements to play that they don't vary much by points level (Craftworlders are powerful however many of them there are, DE struggle whether it's a 500pt game or a 2,000pt game...).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With Daemons at 1k you should be fine; stick to one MC so you've got enough points to put into bodies, and you've got summoning to plug holes if your opponent puts down something you're not directly equipped to counter.

I think it certainly makes a difference. Played a 500pt game with my Orks against Blood Angels last night, and pretty much just swamped him in bodies. 46 greenskins, 14 marines (and a razorback which, unfortunately for my opponent, was packing a lascannon turret).

Modern IG shine at low points (750-1k) and crumble quickly the further up the scale you go until about the 5k mark where shear weight of multi-role fire has a happy habit of nullifying hard counters.

As pointed out above, the weight of numbers matters a lot more at low points, and with IG especially our best toys (Wyvern, Vulture, Mechanised Veterans in approximately that order) can be taken in significant multiples with plenty left over for troops, specialists or force multipliers @ 1k. Compared to SM who, for a 5 man grav dev squad in a cad are already paying nearly 500 pts factoring in taxes , and almost 600 for the same of centurions, and you start seeing how much certain armies rely on scale for their effectiveness.

I will be playing a 250 point game against a pure Legion of the Dammed detachment (local escalation league). 3++ on every marine and every shot they take ignores cover. Best I can do is a bucket of dice and hope for the best.

Oh yeah, some armies just rely on the big units, or formations to be worth any thing, while others are much better at lower points.

Case and point.

Deathwatch, on their on in games under 1000, amazing, over 1250 on their own, its getting dicey.

Necrons under 1000, gets dicey over 1250, now we are talking.

 Igenstilch wrote:
I will be playing a 250 point game against a pure Legion of the Dammed detachment (local escalation league). 3++ on every marine and every shot they take ignores cover. Best I can do is a bucket of dice and hope for the best.

Nah. They all have to start in Reserves. SInce they cannot come in until Turn 2, you win at the end of Game Turn 1.

Hurts you bad with daemons. You know from playing them that they only get better the more points you add. At 1000 points - Incursion becomes nearly impossible to use and 1 bad roll can cost you the game.

Daemons are actually better at lower points because summoning is so much more points efficient. Summoned units are usually around 100 points so if you are at 1000 points you are getting 10% more army per summon while at 2000 pts you only get 5% more army per summon. The same logic can be applied to buffs like Grimoire as it will apply to a larger ratio of your army.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Daemons are actually better at lower points because summoning is so much more points efficient. Summoned units are usually around 100 points so if you are at 1000 points you are getting 10% more army per summon while at 2000 pts you only get 5% more army per summon. The same logic can be applied to buffs like Grimoire as it will apply to a larger ratio of your army.

Also cheap HQ/Mastery levels from compulsory choices keeps you scaling really well with the game size.

I use to feel that DE were really hurt in higher point games. 500-1000 points I felt like the deck was stacked in my favor. 2500 I had absolutely no chance.

Then the latest DE codex came out and I quickly realized I didnt have a chance at any point value.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Daemons are actually better at lower points because summoning is so much more points efficient. Summoned units are usually around 100 points so if you are at 1000 points you are getting 10% more army per summon while at 2000 pts you only get 5% more army per summon. The same logic can be applied to buffs like Grimoire as it will apply to a larger ratio of your army.

Wouldn't say it's more point efficient if its much harder to get off with way less dice. Probably no fate-weaver at this points level ether. The army relies on redundancy to get the powers it needs to run like a power house. At low points it's a gamble - sometimes will work - sometimes not. At 2500-3000 points all your nasty combos are automatic.

Do you have nurgle daemons? At 1k you can fit in a daemonic incursion with Tallyband, a unit of Furies, and a Daemon Prince kitted out. That's a decent amount of support for the big guy, and most of it denies overwatch. Works well for me at least.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Daemons are actually better at lower points because summoning is so much more points efficient.

This is true, but I find trying to land it can be a pain unless your army is specifically built to cast it, and if that's the case your army is generally not very good at anything else because Pink Horrors are useless outside the Psychic Phase. Even if you go that way, you're still just adding a bunch of T3 infantry to the table every turn, which can annoy your opponent but isn't hugely difficult to deal with.

The Incursion formation is really powerful at lower point limits though, especially against armies with poor mobility.

Not sure how friendly you want your game to be, but I run Tzeentch and there is little to no change in how I run it based on point size(note your friend might hate you).

HQ:

Kairos - 300

Heralds -
Tzherald w/ disc, ml 3, paradox - 145
Tzherald w/ disc, ml 3, exalted reward(grimoire) - 150
Exalted flamer - 50

Troops:

Pink horrors x 11 - 99
Pink horrors x 11 - 99

Fast attack:

Screamers of Tzeentch x 6 - 150

Total - 993

Put the grimoire herald with the Screamers and go for CE for the annoying 2+ re roll. other herald chills with horrors or advances as needed or objectives. But mainly he is there for the guaranteed summon(paradox makes all fails succeses, and succeses fails so throwing 5 dice at a 3 wc spell is 100% guarantees summoning).

Kairos is there to control the warp storm and use his D shot on their high AV/toughness targets With left over die after summons and cursed earth(keep in mind all summoning you do in the CE bubble doesn't scatter). Horrors hold back line objectives, provides WC's, and fodder for possession of you rolled it.

Exalted flamer either chills with Screamers for advance position on its d3+1 s9 ap2 shots, or stayed with a horror squad to deter back line assault with is s5 ap3 wall of death.

Something to note is Kairos can summon Burning chariots more e flamers or just flamers If you feel those would be more helpful for the situation(both heads know all change spells).

This list is so easily taken up to 2k, or even down to 500 and still has the Screamerstar and paradox summons(the 500 pt list only has 4 WC's but with literally any roll for winds of the warp you can summon)

Anyway hope this helps.

I think some armies are definitely neutered in smaller games. Others can close the gap better in very large games. For example, at my FLGS, we do 3000 point games moderately often, and at that level, Tau fall behind a little (unit count issues), and Guard pull way closer to parity with everyone else. So do Tyranids. Space Marines don't gain all that much from going up - they just get to do more of what they were doing already. Eldar and Necrons stay strong for the same reasons they were strong already.

Some of that is idiosyncratic to our group, but a lot of armies have distinct knees in their power curves.

Any army that relies on their decurion is going to be CRAP compared to 1850 at 1000. Necrons, SM(mitigated by how good pods are), Warconvocation is impossible etc

Yes and no.

Yes as some armies kinda rely on over the top formations to gain advantages

no because its a dice game and gak happens.

Ecdain wrote:
Not sure how friendly you want your game to be, but I run Tzeentch and there is little to no change in how I run it based on point size(note your friend might hate you).

HQ:

Kairos - 300

Heralds -
Tzherald w/ disc, ml 3, paradox - 145
Tzherald w/ disc, ml 3, exalted reward(grimoire) - 150
Exalted flamer - 50

Troops:

Pink horrors x 11 - 99
Pink horrors x 11 - 99

Fast attack:

Screamers of Tzeentch x 6 - 150

Total - 993

Put the grimoire herald with the Screamers and go for CE for the annoying 2+ re roll. other herald chills with horrors or advances as needed or objectives. But mainly he is there for the guaranteed summon(paradox makes all fails succeses, and succeses fails so throwing 5 dice at a 3 wc spell is 100% guarantees summoning).

Kairos is there to control the warp storm and use his D shot on their high AV/toughness targets With left over die after summons and cursed earth(keep in mind all summoning you do in the CE bubble doesn't scatter). Horrors hold back line objectives, provides WC's, and fodder for possession of you rolled it.

Exalted flamer either chills with Screamers for advance position on its d3+1 s9 ap2 shots, or stayed with a horror squad to deter back line assault with is s5 ap3 wall of death.

Something to note is Kairos can summon Burning chariots more e flamers or just flamers If you feel those would be more helpful for the situation(both heads know all change spells).

This list is so easily taken up to 2k, or even down to 500 and still has the Screamerstar and paradox summons(the 500 pt list only has 4 WC's but with literally any roll for winds of the warp you can summon)

Anyway hope this helps.

Pretty brutal.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ecdain wrote:
Not sure how friendly you want your game to be, but I run Tzeentch and there is little to no change in how I run it based on point size(note your friend might hate you).

HQ:

Kairos - 300

Heralds -
Tzherald w/ disc, ml 3, paradox - 145
Tzherald w/ disc, ml 3, exalted reward(grimoire) - 150
Exalted flamer - 50

Troops:

Pink horrors x 11 - 99
Pink horrors x 11 - 99

Fast attack:

Screamers of Tzeentch x 6 - 150

Total - 993

Put the grimoire herald with the Screamers and go for CE for the annoying 2+ re roll. other herald chills with horrors or advances as needed or objectives. But mainly he is there for the guaranteed summon(paradox makes all fails succeses, and succeses fails so throwing 5 dice at a 3 wc spell is 100% guarantees summoning).

Kairos is there to control the warp storm and use his D shot on their high AV/toughness targets With left over die after summons and cursed earth(keep in mind all summoning you do in the CE bubble doesn't scatter). Horrors hold back line objectives, provides WC's, and fodder for possession of you rolled it.

Exalted flamer either chills with Screamers for advance position on its d3+1 s9 ap2 shots, or stayed with a horror squad to deter back line assault with is s5 ap3 wall of death.

Something to note is Kairos can summon Burning chariots more e flamers or just flamers If you feel those would be more helpful for the situation(both heads know all change spells).

This list is so easily taken up to 2k, or even down to 500 and still has the Screamerstar and paradox summons(the 500 pt list only has 4 WC's but with literally any roll for winds of the warp you can summon)

Anyway hope this helps.

Pretty brutal.

Thanks my local group doesn't let me bring my tourney lists unless there is a good prize(they just all go home if I bring my Tzeentch or eldar) so I don't get to use it much but it's a lot of fun.

Ecdain wrote:
(note your friend might hate you)

He will if he tries to kill the Screamer"star" - but why would he bother? With just 6 models it's not a threat to anything aside from vehicles or Guardsmen/ Horrors, and can be clogged effectively by 5 Tactical Marines for a couple of turns. Moreso if the Herald refuses challenges. That immobilises your mobile Summoning platform until you can get a close combat unit to come and deal with the blockage.

Paradox only works for the Herald holding it. That's important. That means if he's sitting in the backfield with the Horrors then you'll be summoning T3 Infantry into your backfield all day, which is... great? I dunno. Maybe having T3 5++ infantry running across the board is the new hotness or something.

Exalted flamer either chills with Screamers for advance position on its d3+1 s9 ap2 shots, or stayed with a horror squad to deter back line assault with is s5 ap3 wall of death.

I don't get this. How does this give him "advance position"? Where does the "+1" come from?

The Exalted Flamer is awesome, though. He's like a little turret that just sits in midfield and destroys everything that comes near him.

Or, y'know, gives it FNP.

Hooray for Tzeentch!

In all honesty I think you could probably build a scarier Incursion list at 1000pts. I'm not seeing the power here at all.

Armies that have good MSU options, and cheap fast tings, and cheap vehicles tend to do well in low point cost.

Orks with trukks and deffkopta's are great at low point cost while knights are kinda sucky.

 Exergy wrote:
I use to feel that DE were really hurt in higher point games. 500-1000 points I felt like the deck was stacked in my favor. 2500 I had absolutely no chance.

Then the latest DE codex came out and I quickly realized I didnt have a chance at any point value.

Or rmore likely you just needed to learn to play them better.

Seriously, whilst not a match for Craftworld Eldar, there are several codexes worse than DE's.

I think from my limited experience that the answer is a "sort-of". Armies tend to get better as you go up in points and new options such as cool equipment, units, and formations becomes more easily available. However there is a cut off point after which adding more points to an army stops adding any meaningful options and instead you are just taking redundancies for your units (unless you are playing apocalypse when there is a slight bump when people start bringing lots of superheavies). After this point the power level of an army starts to plateau. This point happens at different point levels for different armies. Some armies, such as orks, tends to be able to field all their things at a lower point level and reaches the cap quicker. Other armies with more options and combinations available take longer to reach this cap.

As a Necron player who has started a CSM army. I can tell you its far harder to make a good list at sub 1500 points as a CSM player. Esp with the traitors hate formations being so big. At times its hard to get more than a Warband and a formation in under 1750. While it was simple for me to make a necron list that works at almost any point level.

BBAP wrote:

Ecdain wrote:
(note your friend might hate you)

He will if he tries to kill the Screamer"star" - but why would he bother? With just 6 models it's not a threat to anything aside from vehicles or Guardsmen/ Horrors, and can be clogged effectively by 5 Tactical Marines for a couple of turns. Moreso if the Herald refuses challenges. That immobilises your mobile Summoning platform until you can get a close combat unit to come and deal with the blockage.

Paradox only works for the Herald holding it. That's important. That means if he's sitting in the backfield with the Horrors then you'll be summoning T3 Infantry into your backfield all day, which is... great? I dunno. Maybe having T3 5++ infantry running across the board is the new hotness or something.

Exalted flamer either chills with Screamers for advance position on its d3+1 s9 ap2 shots, or stayed with a horror squad to deter back line assault with is s5 ap3 wall of death.

I don't get this. How does this give him "advance position"? Where does the "+1" come from?

The Exalted Flamer is awesome, though. He's like a little turret that just sits in midfield and destroys everything that comes near him.

Or, y'know, gives it FNP.

Hooray for Tzeentch!

In all honesty I think you could probably build a scarier Incursion list at 1000pts. I'm not seeing the power here at all.

First off Screamers can trade all their attacks for a single s5 ap2 attack.each so tac marines will die pretty fast with prescience(herald), blue flame of Tzeentch weapon profile "s9 ap2 assault d3 + 1, 18" range" and advance position was because they can branch off for objectives while Screamers continue forward.

Yes, different armys have different thresholds for when they actually become functional. Tyranids fall apart in low point games because you just CANNOT bring enough synapse to support the other models.

Ecdain wrote:

BBAP wrote:

Ecdain wrote:
(note your friend might hate you)

He will if he tries to kill the Screamer"star" - but why would he bother? With just 6 models it's not a threat to anything aside from vehicles or Guardsmen/ Horrors, and can be clogged effectively by 5 Tactical Marines for a couple of turns. Moreso if the Herald refuses challenges. That immobilises your mobile Summoning platform until you can get a close combat unit to come and deal with the blockage.

Paradox only works for the Herald holding it. That's important. That means if he's sitting in the backfield with the Horrors then you'll be summoning T3 Infantry into your backfield all day, which is... great? I dunno. Maybe having T3 5++ infantry running across the board is the new hotness or something.

Exalted flamer either chills with Screamers for advance position on its d3+1 s9 ap2 shots, or stayed with a horror squad to deter back line assault with is s5 ap3 wall of death.

I don't get this. How does this give him "advance position"? Where does the "+1" come from?

The Exalted Flamer is awesome, though. He's like a little turret that just sits in midfield and destroys everything that comes near him.

Or, y'know, gives it FNP.

Hooray for Tzeentch!

In all honesty I think you could probably build a scarier Incursion list at 1000pts. I'm not seeing the power here at all.

First off Screamers can trade all their attacks for a single s5 ap2 attack.each so tac marines will die pretty fast with prescience(herald), blue flame of Tzeentch weapon profile "s9 ap2 assault d3 + 1, 18" range" and advance position was because they can branch off for objectives while Screamers continue forward.

Blue fire of tzeentch is only d3 shots