Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Although it's not directly described (apart from directly before the Fall in the Asurmen books), there are generally more hints dropped about pre-Fall Eldar than DAoT mankind so we should be able to piece together a reasonable amount through hints.

I've got a couple of references that i can think of, but i'd greatly appreciate anyone else weighing in as doubtless there's tons i've missed!

Apologies for the oncoming wall of text! Anyone who gets through it shall get a medal

First off, i think it's fairly clear that both CWE and DE eldar society is radically changed from what the Eldar were like pre-fall. In the Asurmen book, it shows that the Eldar Aspects and the Path system as a whole were created as a postfall coping mechanism. Secondly, the Dark Eldar are described as being closest to pre-Fall eldar of the two main factions (with Corsairs being described as closer still), but they're described as 'closest' rather than 'close' and so much has changed in Dark Eldar society post-Fall that i'd be willing to bet it's mostly unrecognisable (replacement of the noble houses with kabals etc.).


To map things, i'll fairly arbitrarily split pre-Fall history into early (during the War in Heaven), middle (after the War in Heaven but before the slip into hedonism) and late (during the hedonistic period).

Immediately pre-Fall and the Haemonculi
We know that during late pre-Fall eldar society there was rampant violence, pleasure cults and various other nasties running alongside more traditional aspects of the eldar culture.

From the old Dark Eldar codex we know that there were individuals known as Dark Muses, which subverted power in late Eldar society. Commorragh was also formed in the early days of this period as a refuge from the law for the earliest pleasure seekers. We're also told that the Haemonculi have their origins in the masters of pre-Fall eldar society. Are they the descendents of these Dark Muses?

Pre-Fall Eldar warfare and the nature of Khaine
We know that the Eldar themselves didn't really partake in warfare during the late period, their battles being fought by legions of psychomatons which i picture as sort of close to wraithguard, but powered by summoned daemons derived from their gods (probably the war god, Khaine). What if the eldar myth of Khaine declaring war on the Eldar is a racial memory of an uprising of these psychomatons?

In their early period during the War in Heaven, the eldar are described as fighting the Yngir (Necrons) alongside Khaine himself. Could that actually be mortal Eldar fighting alongside these psychomatons infused with the daemons of Khaine? Or, if the concept of Khaine originated as an Old One (or more likely an Old One race/faction), were they fighting alongside the warriors of the Old Ones in this battle?

Also, my vision of the very early War in Heaven eldar warhosts is based on the concept of the Old Ones 'weaponising the warp'. In my mind, eldar hosts were primarily very powerful psykers summoning vast numbers of daemonic beings to fight, alongside powerful roiling psychic storms and bokts of energy. As their technology progressed, they developed shells of psychoactive materials (wraithbone) to bind these summoned beings into to create the psychomatons.

The description of eldar characters fighting the Yngir, the Hresh-Selain and the Autochtinii (all described as ancient enemies of the Eldar) indicates that early Eldar warfare was actually conducted by the Eldar themselves, possibly meaning that the reliance on psychomatons for warfare was probably a later development.

Eldar vehicles, both civilian and military
We also know that they likely travelled around in skimmers. Dark Eldar Raiders are described as being derived from/reminiscent of the old pleasure yachts that Eldar used to cruise around in. It's also not a great leap to assume that Eldar Jetbikes were once civilian craft. If the eldar didn't really go to war themselves, then i doubt they'd have eldar-piloted armachines in ready supply. This probably means that all eldar vehicles are likely either converted civilian craft, or post-Fall inventions.

Eldar societal structure
Also, Saim-Hann's culture is described as being similar to pre-Fall eldar society, meaning that they were likely a clan-based society with strong family ties. Also, we're told of noble houses that ruled Commorragh before Vect came to power, so as a society the had a royal elite.

We also know that Vect was born a slave in Commorragh before the Fall, indicating that slavery was present, at least in the dark corners of the webway, beyond the jurisdiction of the eldar high council (another snippet into eldar society).

We know that there was a significant religious aspect to pre-Fall eldar society, with priests and temples to their gods being present.

Also, it may be that at some point in their history the eldar were divided into two factions. In myth and legend, two warring families or individuals or gods are often proxies for historical warfare between two ancient factions (see theories of greek myths as indicative of cultural and military invasion). The houses of Eldanesh and Ulthanash could be two such factions, which according to myth were at war with one another before uniting against common enemies on two separate occasions (the Hresh-Selain first, and Khaine second).

Lastly, we know that the craftworlds were once massive trading vessels that plied the breadth of the eldar empire and maintained a differing culture due to their time away from the core worlds of the empire (allowing them to see the extent to which the eldar had changed). These craftworlds picked up survivors/refugees bith before and after the Fall, so current craftworld cultures are likely fusions of the original craftworld's cultures and refugee populations from different eldar worlds.

Extent of the pleasure cults and the origins of the Dark Eldar
In the Asurmen books, i also gather that immediately prior to thee Fall, the core Eldar worlds were far more in the grips of the pleasure cults than the outer worlds. Furthermore, i gather that there are the first hints of what would become Dark Eldar raiding parties during the Fall indicating that either the practice of piracy originated then, or pre-dated the Fall.

Technology
One of these proto-dark eldar is described as having wings grafted to him like Scourges so Eldar body modification likely pre-dates the Fall.

An eldar ranger interrogated by the Inperium said that 'the stars once lived and died at our command', indicating the possible ability to create and destroy stars with ease, although given the source that may well be lies and deceit to try and intimidate the interrogator.

Someone also pointed out that the process of reincarnation that the eldar could do pre-fall could be technologically based rather than an innate biological ability. The technology the Dark Eldar have now for resurrecting slain eldar is close enough to reincarnation that it could realistically be based on the ancient tech used for reincarnation, with cloning a later derivative.

We can also safely assume that the vast majority of the eldar technology tree was psychically based. All craftworld technology is psychically based, amd it's only due to the psychic atrophy of the Dark Eldar that they are forced to expand into other technologies. This would also explain why the eldar don't use their most potent weapons, legions of psychomatons and other pre-fall superweapons: they can't without attracting the attention of She-Who-Thirsts.

Any other mentions of what society was like? I haven't read the Asurmen books myself so likely there's more detail there. Does anyone have any more detail on Corsairs as they are described as being similar to pre-fall eldar. Speculation as well as existing fluff is also welcome

Before the corruption, Eldar society was hinted at being enlightened, with a strong focus on arts, literature, and recreation (thanks to labor saving technologies). Their overall technology level, based on bits and pieces of fluff, wasn't much more advanced than what the Craftworlders and Kabalites possess in the 41st Millennium. For example, the Wraithguards, Wraithlords, and Revenants faced by Fulgrim, the Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors, and Legio Mortis on Iydris. There was no hint that they were any different than ones used in the time of 40k. It's possible that certain advanced technologies from the Pre-Fall era are banned, feared, or despised by the Craftworlds/Exodites, much in the same way psychic abilities are among the Kabalites, or AI is among Humanity in the Age of the Imperium. It's also logical to assume that the Eldar had a greater access to industrial capacity and greater resources in that age, with the lack of limiting what they can produce post-Fall.

Plus, it's been hinted that the technology levels of the Human federation (at it's height) and Eldar Empire were pretty close, despite the Eldar having been around since before the dinosaurs became extinct on Earth. With that in mind, it's possible that Eldar society may have had "dark ages" and societal collapse at various periods over 65 million years, only to pull themselves back up over time. It's never been said (to my knowledge) why the Eldar, who were created as a powerful race of psychic cannon-fodder by the Old Ones, hadn't evolved to a state similar to the Old One (no need of physical bodies) long before now.

We also know that the Eldar Empire engaged in diplomacy. They, like so many other xenos, had clashed, and later signed non-aggression pacts, with Mankind's ancient stellar federation. Odds are good that the two polities engaged in commerce with one another (based on common sense extrapolation). Human visitors and business interests could have been present in the old Empire, with both species influencing the other to some degree.

Like Mankind, the Eldar were enemies of the Orks, who were considered "trivial" by both races at that time. It's also possible that the hate the Stryxis xenos have for the Eldar (to the point of being pathological) could very well date from the time of the ancient empire.

Lemme just grab my copy of Asurmen...

Okay, so we see the several stages of decadence that the Pre-Fall Eldar fell into in this novel, over unspecified periods of time.

The first is when the decadence first begins to set in - nobody's chopping anyone up for sport or anything, but they spent all their time either chilling, thrillseeking (in a way we would recognise, we see one of their extreme sports where riders with personal shields go surfing on a coronal ejection). Everyone is relaxed all the time, there's no effort involved with anything. At this point, the only people who realise what's wrong are the ones who will become the Exodites, and are treated very much like a doom preacher on the street corner of any major city on modern earth - silly and to be ignored.

After this, we see the next 'stage' - the 'Doomsayers' have become much more common and also more politically powerful, and are able to use this political power to gain the resources required to seed the Maiden worlds. At this point, the rot is really starting to set in and we see reference to many types of sensationalist 'fanatics' - star-riders, war-thieves, void-chasers, bodyshifters, warpwalkers and turnskins amongst others. We can extrapolate from the names what many of these groups do fairly easily.

During this time-period, we also see an argument between Illiathin (one of the regular Eldar) and his brother Tethesis (one of the Exodites) that you may find interesting - in which the latter argues that they do not strive any longer and that their lives have no meaning, while the former believes that they live their pleasurable lives to honour the ones who came before and were not able to live in such a way. We see mention of 'generations who lived and died on starships to seed the world we inhabit', 'Forefathers that travelled the cold gulf between starts to harness the webway gates that stretch from one end of civilisation to the other', and 'millions that died fighting wars against countless mon-keigh species, dying to create peace for those who came after'. The suggestion is that times were certainly not so easy for the earliest generations of the Eldar.

We then, over another unspecified period of time, move up another notch - the situation when we next see it is becoming reminiscent of Commorragh. There's still a functioning society, but there are cults and gangs capturing and preying on people for pleasure and amusement. The Exodites are gone, the ones who will become the Craftworlders are in the process of leaving as well, but some of the Eldar who understand what is coming stay behind in the core worlds and form vigilante organisations called the 'True Guardians', doing what they can to stop the pleasure cults through violence.

Finally, we see Eldar society immediately before the Fall and as it happens - and there isn't one. It's just a wasteland of deranged wrecks desperately trying to get a fix of some kind of exhilaration or feeling - like what Commorragh would become if they were cut off from all sources of slaves for decades on end. Then the Fall happens, and we see how the few survivors eke out a living in the post-apocalyptic wasteland like a very futuristic Fallout game.

Ynneadwraith wrote:
Although it's not directly described (apart from directly before the Fall in the Asurmen books), there are generally more hints dropped about pre-Fall Eldar than DAoT mankind so we should be able to piece together a reasonable amount through hints.

I've got a couple of references that i can think of, but i'd greatly appreciate anyone else weighing in as doubtless there's tons i've missed!

Apologies for the oncoming wall of text! Anyone who gets through it shall get a medal

First off, i think it's fairly clear that both CWE and DE eldar society is radically changed from what the Eldar were like pre-fall. In the Asurmen book, it shows that the Eldar Aspects and the Path system as a whole were created as a postfall coping mechanism. Secondly, the Dark Eldar are described as being closest to pre-Fall eldar of the two main factions (with Corsairs being described as closer still), but they're described as 'closest' rather than 'close' and so much has changed in Dark Eldar society post-Fall that i'd be willing to bet it's mostly unrecognisable (replacement of the noble houses with kabals etc.).

Like most things in 40K, these same questions were asked years ago so I will re-use some of the answers. New reply and citations are at the bottom.

To quote myself from 4 years ago:

Iracundus wrote:

Ignatius wrote:The eldar created the Chaos God Slaanesh. General Knowledge.

The Dark Eldar are the "true Eldar" while Craftworld Eldar are more like the Amish of the Eldar Species.

Now here's my question:

Which of these two did the "origonal Eldar" more closely resemble? Did they look like Dark Eldar and the Craftworlds changed their ways? Or did they look like Craftworld eldar and later chose to change to something that looks more hellish (for lack of a better description)?

It seems to me they would more look like Dark Eldar, seeing as how their excesses are what birthed Slaanesh and they still seem to relish the pleasure of pain and torture.

Unless I missed something in the Eldar and Dark Eldar codecies.

The answer is both. The pre-Fall Eldar changed over time.

The Craftworld Eldar aesthetic models itself off of classical Eldar styles and virtues. The existence of so many Webway gates around the galaxy (built before the Fall) with wraithbone and Craftworld Eldar aesthetics shows it to be an ancient style.

The Dark Eldar styles are that of the corrupt and decadent Eldar immediately right before the Fall.

In that sense, you can see the Craftworld Eldar as neo-classical style.

To quote myself from 3 years ago:

Iracundus wrote:
The Dark Age of Technology humans were advanced but they were still outclassed by the pre-Fall Eldar (as the Eldar empire is explicitly stated to have had no fear of external enemies and to have prevailed in all wars against such enemies), and by the Necrons (who were mostly still slumbering). The whole point of the Fall of the Eldar is that they were so utterly secure from outside threats that their empire rotted from within because they were free to indulge in endless leisure without worries. The theme of the pre-Fall Eldar empire is the same as that of the Old Republic in Star Wars, of a society grown arrogant and complacent since it was strong against the external only to succumb to internal decay.

...

The Dark Age of Technology advanced humans and the pre-Fall Eldar empire could easily have co-existed alongside each other in the galaxy as the galaxy is a huge space and even now the Imperium only occupies a scattering of worlds with the rest being vast uncharted tracts of unknown space with sometimes minor alien or human empires in them. We see evidence of Dark Age of Technology terraforming attempts, successful, unsuccessful, and interrupted versions throughout the galaxy. Clearly humans were not supreme if they had to try and terraform marginal worlds when the Eldar were already sitting on paradise worlds (which are now the Crone Worlds). The matter of 2 advanced empires in the galaxy is far from irreconcilable. It is a simple matter to think that the Eldar Empire, secure against external threats, was introspective and preoccupied with its own internal pleasures and affairs leaving the Dark Age of Technology humans to expand and spread humanity across the galaxy. At the same time, the humans would have realized after any unsuccessful attempts to take major Eldar holdings that the Eldar were not to be trifled with and left the Eldar worlds alone in favor of other worlds. Again if one were to take another science fiction series as analogy to the Eldar, think of the Vorlons from Babylon 5. Highly advanced, and responding to any intrusions to their territory with devastating overwhelming force, but otherwise content to let everyone else run around freely outside their territory.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Odds are good that the two polities engaged in commerce with one another (based on common sense extrapolation). Human visitors and business interests could have been present in the old Empire, with both species influencing the other to some degree.

There is little suggestion of any such commerce. In fact there is evidence against it:

Each Craftworld originates from one of the ancient Eldar planets...Over the centuries the Craftworlds' occupants sought out other surviving Eldar amongst the far flung Exodite colonies, and even began to settle new worlds of their own. In this way the paths of the Eldar and mankind met for the first time and humans became acquainted with the most ancient and enigmatic of the galaxy's living races.

p. 5, 2nd edition Eldar Codex

This seems to support what I posted about the Eldar and humans co-existing in the galaxy but not really interacting prior to the Eldar Fall.

Ynneadwraith wrote:

Eldar societal structure
Also, Saim-Hann's culture is described as being similar to pre-Fall eldar society, meaning that they were likely a clan-based society with strong family ties. Also, we're told of noble houses that ruled Commorragh before Vect came to power, so as a society the had a royal elite.

...

Eldar vehicles, both civilian and military
We also know that they likely travelled around in skimmers. Dark Eldar Raiders are described as being derived from/reminiscent of the old pleasure yachts that Eldar used to cruise around in. It's also not a great leap to assume that Eldar Jetbikes were once civilian craft. If the eldar didn't really go to war themselves, then i doubt they'd have eldar-piloted armachines in ready supply. This probably means that all eldar vehicles are likely either converted civilian craft, or post-Fall inventions.

...

Does anyone have any more detail on Corsairs as they are described as being similar to pre-fall eldar.

Societal structure is not known with any detail, beyond the fact that there were Eldar councils that seemed to govern different areas or aspects of the Eldar empire, and that there was an aristocracy that had more wealth and time than others as they were the first to succumb to the societal rot.

Amongst the pleasure-seekers and the interminably curious were those whose pursuit of excess became ever more extreme. These included a great proportion of the aristocracy of ancient Eldar society; those with the wealth and the time to truly explore the fruits of decadence.

p.6, 5th edition Dark Eldar Codex

Because of the access it granted to the far-flung corners of realspace, Commorragh was reckoned to be the most important location in the entire webway. It was too valuable to the Eldar as a whole to belong to any single aspect of their empire. Precisely because of its autonomy, and the fact that it existed outside the jurisdiction of the great Eldar councils of that time, the city-port quickly became a magnet for those that wished their deeds to be hidden from prying eyes.

p. 8, 5th edition Dark Eldar Codex

The last two Eldar Codices have given the Vyper as being an innovation of Saim-hann Craftworld.

The 5th edition Dark Eldar Codex had this to say of the Venom:

So it is that the most devious Dark Eldar ride to war upon craft no larger than the Vypers of the Eldar Craftworlds, or the sky-chariots of the ancient Eldar empire that preceded them.
p. 43, 5th edition Dark Eldar Codex

The Harlequin Codex has this to say of the Starweaver:

Echoing the sky chariots of the ancient Eldar, these swift attack vehicles have a transport platform at their rear capable of bearing a Troupe of Harlequins into battle.

p.76, Harlequin Codex

From examining the aesthetics, we see also clear similarities from things like the cowling and platform railing between the Venom and the Starweaver. Given that the Harlequins are one of the post-Fall fragments of the Eldar, their technology thus either shares a common ancestor (i.e. the sky chariots of the pre-Fall Eldar) or they are an adaptation of the Dark Eldar Venom, which was descended from the sky chariots. Why not the Dark Eldar adapting from the Harlequins? Possible but less likely given that the timelines given in the Codices show the Harlequins to be a younger faction, appearing first in 641.M33 to other Eldar.


As for the Corsairs and how they are similar to pre-Fall Eldar:

As home and the Eldar path become increasingly remote, the naturally wild and amoral character of the Eldar re-surfaces. Eldar pirates are quick tempered and unpredictable, equally inclined to magnanimity and wanton slaughter.

p. 19, 2nd edition Eldar Codex

Think of the melodramatic heroes of myths and epic legends, who seem to be ruled by their passions for good or for ill.

What are the sources for the Hresh-sailed and the other ancient enemies of the Eldar? Is it all from the Asurmen novel?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What are the sources for the Hresh-sailed and the other ancient enemies of the Eldar? Is it all from the Asurmen novel?

No. The Hresh-selain are from the Path of the Warrior novel.

Maybe not the most constructive imput to this discussion, but I think it is a perfect place for this little old gem from 2002:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLnYPXTs9LY

It has always been so close to my imaging pre-fall Eldar decadence, that I really wonder if director behind this video knew about 40K. Especially the street psychic fight scene near the end, George's "Fire Dragon"-ish red suit and the whole freaks-on-leashes, which look so Dark Eldar/Slaaneshy...

Wall of text no.2 in 3...2...1

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Before the corruption, Eldar society was hinted at being enlightened, with a strong focus on arts, literature, and recreation (thanks to labor saving technologies). Their overall technology level, based on bits and pieces of fluff, wasn't much more advanced than what the Craftworlders and Kabalites possess in the 41st Millennium. For example, the Wraithguards, Wraithlords, and Revenants faced by Fulgrim, the Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors, and Legio Mortis on Iydris. There was no hint that they were any different than ones used in the time of 40k. It's possible that certain advanced technologies from the Pre-Fall era are banned, feared, or despised by the Craftworlds/Exodites, much in the same way psychic abilities are among the Kabalites, or AI is among Humanity in the Age of the Imperium. It's also logical to assume that the Eldar had a greater access to industrial capacity and greater resources in that age, with the lack of limiting what they can produce post-Fall.

Yeah the Torturers Tale involving Vect describing his history of the Fall tells of the Eldar race in pre-Fall society dedicated themselves to arts and literature and other such noble pursuits.

Where did you get that their technological level wasn't much higher than current craftworlders/commorites? I'm not necessarily disputing it, but it would be interesting to read the sources. Personally, it's my belief that a lot of pre-Fall eldar technologies require significant psychic input which current day eldar cannot use for fear of She-Who-Thirsts.

As for the portrayal of Eldar in the Horus Heresy novels I'm not sure how much knowledge the writers had on Eldar to be honest. The timelines don't add up. Eldrad is shoehorned in as the head seer of Ulthwe, despite the fact that that would make him older than Vect who has extended his lifespan through unnatural means and would mean that he's much older than the general accepted age limit for an Eldar seer (a couple of thousand years). Lastly, the Staff of Ulthamar (his main weapon) is described as being passed down from head seer of Ulthwe to head seer. If Eldrad was head seer of Ulthwe in M30 then there could not have been any head seers before him (Farseers being a post-Fall thing). Doesn't make sense, and I'm inclined to believe Codex over BL.

It's the same with Wraith constructs. I'd imagine that they were a more recent tactic as the Eldar became more desperate. I wouldn't have expected the practice to be around so soon after the Fall (although given that there isn't a specific date for the Fall having taken place, just 'cM31' there could be up to 1000 years between the two events).

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Plus, it's been hinted that the technology levels of the Human federation (at it's height) and Eldar Empire were pretty close, despite the Eldar having been around since before the dinosaurs became extinct on Earth. With that in mind, it's possible that Eldar society may have had "dark ages" and societal collapse at various periods over 65 million years, only to pull themselves back up over time. It's never been said (to my knowledge) why the Eldar, who were created as a powerful race of psychic cannon-fodder by the Old Ones, hadn't evolved to a state similar to the Old One (no need of physical bodies) long before now.

Well, every discussion I've seen so far about the technological superiority of pre-Fall Eldar and DAoT mankind has ended up as a bit of a pissing match given the lack of hard evidence, but I'm personally of the opinion that the pre-Fall Eldar were more advanced. All of the STC products hint at a lower level of technological mastery than the Eldar. It's only in places like BL novels with their Deus Ex Machina time-skipping starships that ludicrous technology is shown, which in my personal opinion is not much more than lazy novel writing...

At the height of the DAoT mankind's federation was large but not the dominant power in the galaxy, and was still in the colonisation phase. They were strong enough to lord over the other xenos in their federation, but they lagegd behind the eldar in several crucial areas (FTL travel being the primary dealbreaker, comparing warp travel to the webway).

TBH, Iracundus does a much better job of explaining that than I do!

I do agree that there are likely dozens and dozens of different epochs to Eldar pre-history though. That's very likely, and what I was trying to get at with dividing the Eldar Empire into Early, Middle and Late periods which would likely be very, very different societies. That's what I'm trying to piece together here actually, what the various epochs of the Eldar Empire might have been like.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

We also know that the Eldar Empire engaged in diplomacy. They, like so many other xenos, had clashed, and later signed non-aggression pacts, with Mankind's ancient stellar federation. Odds are good that the two polities engaged in commerce with one another (based on common sense extrapolation). Human visitors and business interests could have been present in the old Empire, with both species influencing the other to some degree.

It is true that that could have happened, but given the legendary arrogance of the Eldar and their deeply-ingrained xenophobia I doubt they'd have had much to do with DAoT mankind beyond a mutual non-aggression pact. However, that certainly doesn't rule out trade or politics at all.

Also, there is the possibility that they never even met. The geography of empires in 40k is only based very loosely around adjacent physical space. Its geography is actually dictated by the proximity of stable warp routes. Thus, you could theoretically have two empires that are based around adjacent star systems very close to each other physically, but never actually meet because there's no stable warp route between them.

That's borne out by the comment Iracundus posts about first contact between the Eldar and mankind.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Like Mankind, the Eldar were enemies of the Orks, who were considered "trivial" by both races at that time. It's also possible that the hate the Stryxis xenos have for the Eldar (to the point of being pathological) could very well date from the time of the ancient empire.

That's very interesting about the Stryxis. I've read before that they have a pathological hatred of the Eldar, and the likelihood is that's related to an event in Eldar history. Perhaps they're the descendants of the Hresh-Selain or Autochtinii, or a race that was so insignificant to the Eldar that they didn't get a mention in their history but was still a seminal event in the history of the Stryxis.

 Robin5t wrote:
Lemme just grab my copy of Asurmen...

Okay, so we see the several stages of decadence that the Pre-Fall Eldar fell into in this novel, over unspecified periods of time.

The first is when the decadence first begins to set in - nobody's chopping anyone up for sport or anything, but they spent all their time either chilling, thrillseeking (in a way we would recognise, we see one of their extreme sports where riders with personal shields go surfing on a coronal ejection). Everyone is relaxed all the time, there's no effort involved with anything. At this point, the only people who realise what's wrong are the ones who will become the Exodites, and are treated very much like a doom preacher on the street corner of any major city on modern earth - silly and to be ignored.

After this, we see the next 'stage' - the 'Doomsayers' have become much more common and also more politically powerful, and are able to use this political power to gain the resources required to seed the Maiden worlds. At this point, the rot is really starting to set in and we see reference to many types of sensationalist 'fanatics' - star-riders, war-thieves, void-chasers, bodyshifters, warpwalkers and turnskins amongst others. We can extrapolate from the names what many of these groups do fairly easily.

During this time-period, we also see an argument between Illiathin (one of the regular Eldar) and his brother Tethesis (one of the Exodites) that you may find interesting - in which the latter argues that they do not strive any longer and that their lives have no meaning, while the former believes that they live their pleasurable lives to honour the ones who came before and were not able to live in such a way. We see mention of 'generations who lived and died on starships to seed the world we inhabit', 'Forefathers that travelled the cold gulf between starts to harness the webway gates that stretch from one end of civilisation to the other', and 'millions that died fighting wars against countless mon-keigh species, dying to create peace for those who came after'. The suggestion is that times were certainly not so easy for the earliest generations of the Eldar.

We then, over another unspecified period of time, move up another notch - the situation when we next see it is becoming reminiscent of Commorragh. There's still a functioning society, but there are cults and gangs capturing and preying on people for pleasure and amusement. The Exodites are gone, the ones who will become the Craftworlders are in the process of leaving as well, but some of the Eldar who understand what is coming stay behind in the core worlds and form vigilante organisations called the 'True Guardians', doing what they can to stop the pleasure cults through violence.

Finally, we see Eldar society immediately before the Fall and as it happens - and there isn't one. It's just a wasteland of deranged wrecks desperately trying to get a fix of some kind of exhilaration or feeling - like what Commorragh would become if they were cut off from all sources of slaves for decades on end. Then the Fall happens, and we see how the few survivors eke out a living in the post-apocalyptic wasteland like a very futuristic Fallout game.

Fantastic! That's exactly what I was looking for, and gives a lot of hints and detail of what the Fall was actually like. The names of the various types of thrillseeker are particularly evocative. The 'war-thieves' strike me as the closest to proto-Dark Eldar. 'Turnskins' and 'bodyshifters' sound terrifying too, and I can imagine 'warpwalkers' being something like explorers of the warp (or junkies that duck into the warp unshielded for a rush). I'll try and incorporate some of these ideas into my Croneworld army that I'm coming up with

Iracundus wrote:


The answer is both. The pre-Fall Eldar changed over time.

The Craftworld Eldar aesthetic models itself off of classical Eldar styles and virtues. The existence of so many Webway gates around the galaxy (built before the Fall) with wraithbone and Craftworld Eldar aesthetics shows it to be an ancient style.

The Dark Eldar styles are that of the corrupt and decadent Eldar immediately right before the Fall.

In that sense, you can see the Craftworld Eldar as neo-classical style.

Absolutely agreed. Both e Craftworld Eldar cutlure and the Dark Eldar culture are products of the fall, and are likely much changed by that event. I do agree that likely the technology of the pre-Fall eldar was similar to craftworld eldar. As you've said, the pre-Fall artifacts you find around the galaxy match craftworld architecture and design.

I like the idea that the craftworld eldar are basically neo-classical eldar. In the 7th ed codex there's a quote which says 'the Eldar cling tenaciously to their folklore and traditions'. This suggests that the current craftworld culture is based heavily on that of the history of the Eldar Empire. Probably quite far removed from the Late period of the Eldar Empire, but likely bearing similarities to the Early or Middle periods. By teasing out which aspects of their culture are post-Fall (aspects, the path, farseers, wraith constructs etc.) we can piece together what their culture may have been like.

That's where I brought in Saim-Hann being close to pre-Fall (or probably pre-Late period) Eldar society. One of family clans, warrior chiefs and wild hosts.

Of course, the Eldar Empire was a big place. Plenty of scope for there to be markedly different cultures on different worlds at the same time period. For instance, there's an example of a matriarchal society in Iybraesil.

Iracundus wrote:
The Dark Age of Technology humans were advanced but they were still outclassed by the pre-Fall Eldar (as the Eldar empire is explicitly stated to have had no fear of external enemies and to have prevailed in all wars against such enemies), and by the Necrons (who were mostly still slumbering). The whole point of the Fall of the Eldar is that they were so utterly secure from outside threats that their empire rotted from within because they were free to indulge in endless leisure without worries. The theme of the pre-Fall Eldar empire is the same as that of the Old Republic in Star Wars, of a society grown arrogant and complacent since it was strong against the external only to succumb to internal decay.

...

The Dark Age of Technology advanced humans and the pre-Fall Eldar empire could easily have co-existed alongside each other in the galaxy as the galaxy is a huge space and even now the Imperium only occupies a scattering of worlds with the rest being vast uncharted tracts of unknown space with sometimes minor alien or human empires in them. We see evidence of Dark Age of Technology terraforming attempts, successful, unsuccessful, and interrupted versions throughout the galaxy. Clearly humans were not supreme if they had to try and terraform marginal worlds when the Eldar were already sitting on paradise worlds (which are now the Crone Worlds). The matter of 2 advanced empires in the galaxy is far from irreconcilable. It is a simple matter to think that the Eldar Empire, secure against external threats, was introspective and preoccupied with its own internal pleasures and affairs leaving the Dark Age of Technology humans to expand and spread humanity across the galaxy. At the same time, the humans would have realized after any unsuccessful attempts to take major Eldar holdings that the Eldar were not to be trifled with and left the Eldar worlds alone in favor of other worlds. Again if one were to take another science fiction series as analogy to the Eldar, think of the Vorlons from Babylon 5. Highly advanced, and responding to any intrusions to their territory with devastating overwhelming force, but otherwise content to let everyone else run around freely outside their territory.

I'll be copy-pasting that into discussions of DAoT humanity vs pre-Fall Eldar

Iracundus wrote:

The 5th edition Dark Eldar Codex had this to say of the Venom:

So it is that the most devious Dark Eldar ride to war upon craft no larger than the Vypers of the Eldar Craftworlds, or the sky-chariots of the ancient Eldar empire that preceded them.
p. 43, 5th edition Dark Eldar Codex

The Harlequin Codex has this to say of the Starweaver:

Echoing the sky chariots of the ancient Eldar, these swift attack vehicles have a transport platform at their rear capable of bearing a Troupe of Harlequins into battle.

p.76, Harlequin Codex

From examining the aesthetics, we see also clear similarities from things like the cowling and platform railing between the Venom and the Starweaver. Given that the Harlequins are one of the post-Fall fragments of the Eldar, their technology thus either shares a common ancestor (i.e. the sky chariots of the pre-Fall Eldar) or they are an adaptation of the Dark Eldar Venom, which was descended from the sky chariots. Why not the Dark Eldar adapting from the Harlequins? Possible but less likely given that the timelines given in the Codices show the Harlequins to be a younger faction, appearing first in 641.M33 to other Eldar.

Very interesting and again, supports the idea that most vehicles in use by the Eldar today (certainly the Dark Eldar and Harlequins) are likely repurposed civilian craft. I could see the Craftworlds having military vehicles however, given the extended and likely dangerous trade missions they went on.

Iracundus wrote:

As for the Corsairs and how they are similar to pre-Fall Eldar:

As home and the Eldar path become increasingly remote, the naturally wild and amoral character of the Eldar re-surfaces. Eldar pirates are quick tempered and unpredictable, equally inclined to magnanimity and wanton slaughter.

p. 19, 2nd edition Eldar Codex

Think of the melodramatic heroes of myths and epic legends, who seem to be ruled by their passions for good or for ill.

Yeah that's the quote I was thinking of. Like proper fickle pirate captains. I was wondering if anywhere went into further detail about similarities...

Iracundus wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What are the sources for the Hresh-sailed and the other ancient enemies of the Eldar? Is it all from the Asurmen novel?

No. The Hresh-selain are from the Path of the Warrior novel.

Interesting. What further detail's given if any? The series has arrived from Amazon today actually so I'll get to it myself in time

nou wrote:
Maybe not the most constructive imput to this discussion, but I think it is a perfect place for this little old gem from 2002:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLnYPXTs9LY

It has always been so close to my imaging pre-fall Eldar decadence, that I really wonder if director behind this video knew about 40K. Especially the street psychic fight scene near the end, George's "Fire Dragon"-ish red suit and the whole freaks-on-leashes, which look so Dark Eldar/Slaaneshy...

Huh, eerily reminiscent. Make the architecture look more elven and I could see that being exactly what it was like!

Also, just had an odd thought. The pre-fall eldar undertook extensive terraforming on the galaxy, taking the native fauna of their homeworlds with them. The vast majority of eldar aspects, culture and myth involves fauna that is recognisable to us (falcons, spiders, scorpions, dragons/dinosaurs, hawks etc.).

Is Holy Terra an Eldar maiden world?

More likely that the names of eldar aspects are either Imperial designations, or the closest human word for the Eldar translation.

Still, would make a fun twist (and explain why there's a large webway portal on Terra)...

also, I definitely have an Eldar 4th ed. codex and a 3rd ed codex lying around somewhere. I'll see if I can dig out any info from them when I find them...

Asurmen is the best book for this, by far, although Throneworld of Beast Arises has a little additional contributions.

The clearest thing the Asurmen book does indicate is that the Eldar did not believe in a policy of necessary xenocide, they only wiped out species which threatened them materially, otherwise they largely ignored other alien races. Asurmen does inform us, also, that many Eldar 'hippie' equivalents who were disgusted by the increasing decadence of the Eldar would move to the homes of other aliens and live with them in order to understand what mortality and struggle was like because it wasn't present in their own society.

Throneworld informs us a small nugget about Ork/Eldar relations at the time; in Throneworld a Shadowseer describes the Beast and his Waaagh!!! as being minor compared to the power the Orks had in the past, when the Eldar had to confront them. Said Shadowseer also states that the Eldar fought and defeated the old Human Hegemon (specifically mentioning defeating their robotic forces as well).

Thanks for the insights very interesting about the Eldar not being xenocidal, and even some living out with the other races to learn about adversity.

Like an Eldar gap year

Interesting about the Eldar defeating DAoT mankind in combat. Given that, I'd expect the 'Human Hegemon' to be expanding into Eldar space, there being a brief and bloody conflict before they're repelled and then left alone as they were no longer a direct threat.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Pre-Fall Eldar warfare and the nature of Khaine
We know that the Eldar themselves didn't really partake in warfare during the late period, their battles being fought by legions of psychomatons which i picture as sort of close to wraithguard, but powered by summoned daemons derived from their gods (probably the war god, Khaine). What if the eldar myth of Khaine declaring war on the Eldar is a racial memory of an uprising of these psychomatons?

In their early period during the War in Heaven, the eldar are described as fighting the Yngir (Necrons) alongside Khaine himself. Could that actually be mortal Eldar fighting alongside these psychomatons infused with the daemons of Khaine? Or, if the concept of Khaine originated as an Old One (or more likely an Old One race/faction), were they fighting alongside the warriors of the Old Ones in this battle?

Also, my vision of the very early War in Heaven eldar warhosts is based on the concept of the Old Ones 'weaponising the warp'. In my mind, eldar hosts were primarily very powerful psykers summoning vast numbers of daemonic beings to fight, alongside powerful roiling psychic storms and bokts of energy. As their technology progressed, they developed shells of psychoactive materials (wraithbone) to bind these summoned beings into to create the psychomatons.

The description of eldar characters fighting the Yngir, the Hresh-Selain and the Autochtinii (all described as ancient enemies of the Eldar) indicates that early Eldar warfare was actually conducted by the Eldar themselves, possibly meaning that the reliance on psychomatons for warfare was probably a later development.

I think they actually fought alongside Khaine. The Eldar gods are real after all, and given that the modern Craftworlds still fight alongside Avatars of Khaine, the Eldar might have very well actually had Khaine himself at their side in the past. Or against them, as the myth implies. Personally, I think that the Eldar Gods may indeed have very well been members of the Old Ones.

I also believe that the psychomatons would have been closer to the Wracks and other Dark Eldar constructions rather than to the Wraithguard. The Haemonculi predate the Fall, after all. I think the Haemonculi supplement even mentions that they were the masters of the Eldar in the period before the Fall. Modern Haemonculi constructs are probably lesser versions of the old psychomatons designed to work without the psychic powers that the Commorite Eldar can no longer use.
If the psychomatons are a construction of the Haemonculi, that'd also explain the fact that they seem to be a later development in Eldar warfare.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I think they actually fought alongside Khaine. The Eldar gods are real after all, and given that the modern Craftworlds still fight alongside Avatars of Khaine, the Eldar might have very well actually had Khaine himself at their side in the past. Or against them, as the myth implies. Personally, I think that the Eldar Gods may indeed have very well been members of the Old Ones.

I also believe that the psychomatons would have been closer to the Wracks and other Dark Eldar constructions rather than to the Wraithguard. The Haemonculi predate the Fall, after all. I think the Haemonculi supplement even mentions that they were the masters of the Eldar in the period before the Fall. Modern Haemonculi constructs are probably lesser versions of the old psychomatons designed to work without the psychic powers that the Commorite Eldar can no longer use.
If the psychomatons are a construction of the Haemonculi, that'd also explain the fact that they seem to be a later development in Eldar warfare.

Huh, very interesting theory. Especially about the Eldar psychomatons being biological like the Haemonculi's creations in the present day. Could very well be that, although equally that could have been a post-fall development (or a development of techniques the pleasure cults used to create playthings).

The Eldar could also very well have fought directly alongside Khaine-incarnate given the nature of the 40k universe. However, personally I don't take the myths of the Eldar at face value. Myths in the real world developed from oral storytelling to capture the history of a people, and use a fantastic amount of metaphor.

For instance, the Greeks believed that their gods were real and had direct dealings with mortals. However, the advent of the worship of Ares is thought to coincide/result from with the invasion of warlike tribes from the north, and an adoption of some of their pantheon.

By looking at Eldar myths through this lens (which is probably far finer of a lens than the original fluff writers ever intended :S) we might be able to glean an idea about what the War in Heaven could have been like.

Looking at it like that, I can imagine a potential past where the old ones were a federation of advanced alien races (or different factions of the same race). The Eldar were either uplifted/created by the Isha and Kurnous races/factions. Lileath, being cast as the sister of the Eldar was likely another created/uplifted race lost to history. Khaine, which the early Eldar fought alongside, could have been a warrior race/faction which at one point declared war on the eldar, and also fought in conflicts against the Vaul race/faction.

After the first War in Heaven (the Necrontyr/Necron one), and the Old Ones were destroyed, the racial memories of the early eldar developed into distinct beings in the warp, each representing a part of the eldar psyche. It could be, at this stage, that the eldar fought alongside/against Avatars which are essentially Greater Daemons of Khaine. Either of those, as well as physically fighting alongside the War God Khaine in the physical plane (or in the warp) could be true.

Hell, for all we know the Old Ones could actually be the Eldar themselves. Asuryan, Khaine, Vaul, Morai-Heg, Isha, Kurnous, Lileath, Hoec, Cegorach, the Houses of Eldanesh and Ulthanash. All could have been different factions of a pre-historic eldar empire, or entirely separate eldar empires. The War in Heaven could have been inter-eldar conflict on a large scale, which eventually wiped out all but the citizens of the empire (remembered as Asuryan cutting off contact between mortals and the gods). Also, the gods could have been deified representatives/ancestors of these factions, which due to the nature of belief in the 40k universe became warp entities in their own right.

Bringing it back down from that woolly line of thought...

I wonder if calling the 'War in Heaven' where the Old Ones fought the Necrons, and the 'War in Heaven' where the Eldar Gods fought each other the same thing was an oversight or intentional. What if they're actually the same series of events, viewed from two different perspectives?

I wonder if we can tease out the timelines of the two, and see if there are any commonalities we can use to date things.

So in the eldar telling of the War in Heaven, we have a couple of events:

1. Isha and Kurnous create the mortal Eldar
2. Lileath prophesises of Khaine's death at the hand of the Eldar
3. Khaine goes on a murderous rampage, killing as many eldar as possible
4. Asuryan cuts off the gods from the mortal Eldar
5. Isha and Kurnous break this by speaking to their children, the Eldar
6. Khaine discovers this and imprisons Isha and Kurnous
7. Vaul bargains with Khaine to make him 100 blades for their release
8. Vaul can only make 99 blades and tricks Khaine, causing warfare between the gods
9. After Khaine defeats Vaul, Faolchu takes Anaris to Eldanesh who fights Khaine but is killed
10. After 'an eternity of warfare', Asuryan gets off his backside and calls it even on both sides

In the Necron War in Heaven, we have:

1. The Necrontyr declare war on the Old Ones, either because they won't cure them of their mortality (Oldcrons, better), or because they're a petty warring race that needed a common enemy (Newcrons, worse)
2. The Necrontyr are beaten in a bloody and fairly one-sided conflict with the Old Ones
3. The Necrontyr make contact with the C'Tan, who fashion them new metallic bodies and the Necrontyr become the Necrons
4. The C'Tan and the Necrons turn the tide of the war with the Old Ones, eventually driving them to extinction
5. The Necrons rebel against the C'Tan, sharding them (optional as far as I'm concerned, depending on how much you dislike the Newcron fluff)
6. The Necrons go to sleep, either because of the Enslaver plague, the remaining Eldar are a threat, or because reasons(tm)

If they are the same event, I can see a point of consistency: the Necrons wipe out the Old Ones, and the Eldar Gods are cut off from their mortal children. So, a combined timeline could be like this:

1. The Necrontyr declare war on the Old Ones, either because they won't cure them of their mortality (Oldcrons, better), or because they're a petty warring race that needed a common enemy (Newcrons, worse)
2. The Necrontyr are beaten in a bloody and fairly one-sided conflict with the Old Ones
3. The Necrontyr make contact with the C'Tan, who fashion them new metallic bodies and the Necrontyr become the Necrons
4. The C'Tan and the Necrons turn the tide of the war with the Old Ones
5. Isha and Kurnous create the mortal Eldar (Lexicanum states that the Eldar were created to combat the Necrons, although that's a secondary source)
6. The C'Tan and the Necrons drive the Old Ones to extinction/Asuryan cuts off the gods from the mortal Eldar
7. The Necrons rebel against the C'Tan, sharding them (optional as far as I'm concerned, depending on how much you dislike the Newcron fluff)
8. The Necrons go to sleep, either because of the Enslaver plague, the remaining Eldar are a threat, or because reasons(tm)
9. Isha and Kurnous break this by speaking to their children, the Eldar (the Eldar Gods begin to form in the warp from the racial memories of the dead Old Ones)
10. The rest of the story happens exactly as it's told

However, I remember reading a story somewhere (2nd ed Eldar codex?) that the way that Khaine found out that there was a mortal blade mixed in with the rest of Vaul's weapons was that one of his warriors was tiring during a battle with the Yngir (C'Tan). That could place the extinction of the Old Ones after the events of the Eldar War in Heaven.

Either that, or there are three stages to the conflict.

Stage 1: Necrontyr fight Old Ones. Old Ones win.
Stage 2: C'Tan and Necrons fight Old Ones and Eldar. Necrons wipe out Old Ones.
Stage 3: Eldar continue to fight Necrons (possibly after C'Tan sharding, explaining how the Eldar could match the Necrons), alongside the daemonic manifestations of their gods. Necrons avoid this conflict by going into stasis.

That neatly explains why the Necrons went to sleep in the Newcron fluff always struggled with that...

Good lord, I do like my walls of text don't I? Here's medals for anyone who got through that semi-coherent rambling

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


However, I remember reading a story somewhere (2nd ed Eldar codex?) that the way that Khaine found out that there was a mortal blade mixed in with the rest of Vaul's weapons was that one of his warriors was tiring during a battle with the Yngir (C'Tan). That could place the extinction of the Old Ones after the events of the Eldar War in Heaven.

I can't see any reference to such "exhausting batlle" in 2nd ed codex. And the entire Eldar War in Heaven in 2nd ed is described as a conflict between Khaine and Vaul, with sword forgery being the reason for it, and the end and result being chaining Vaul to his anvil. There is only one sentence about Yngir being demi-god giants (p.83) and various gods changing sides and alliances during this war (but it is not clear, if those "uncertain alliances" were connected to Yngir anyhow - this is just one, poorly written sentence...)

Eh, I'm personally not a fan of the conception of the Eldar Gods being Old Ones. Considering their existence in the Warp, Isha, Cegorach and Khaine's very much Warp and Eldar nature I prefer the conception of them as purely being Warp Gods.

The Eldar 'Gap Year' idea is what I also though to be honest, it is interesting. Then again I feel Tau and Eldar have a great potential for fluff which is largely untapped at all.

As for the combat, the implication appears to be that the Eldar generally reacted defensively only and, once satisfied they were no longer in danger, simply ceased. Part of this mindset is probably meant to be with regards to their slovenly nature, their feeling of invincibility meant that they felt no drive to continue a war beyond initial victory.

Still I would love more expansion of the Phoenix Lords, its tragic to me how unimportant and weak they are in fluff.

nou wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


However, I remember reading a story somewhere (2nd ed Eldar codex?) that the way that Khaine found out that there was a mortal blade mixed in with the rest of Vaul's weapons was that one of his warriors was tiring during a battle with the Yngir (C'Tan). That could place the extinction of the Old Ones after the events of the Eldar War in Heaven.

I can't see any reference to such "exhausting batlle" in 2nd ed codex. And the entire Eldar War in Heaven in 2nd ed is described as a conflict between Khaine and Vaul, with sword forgery being the reason for it, and the end and result being chaining Vaul to his anvil. There is only one sentence about Yngir being demi-god giants (p.83) and various gods changing sides and alliances during this war (but it is not clear, if those "uncertain alliances" were connected to Yngir anyhow - this is just one, poorly written sentence...)

Hmmm, that was the source from Lexicanum for it. I'll see if I can dig out my copy and find it.

 Anemone wrote:
Eh, I'm personally not a fan of the conception of the Eldar Gods being Old Ones. Considering their existence in the Warp, Isha, Cegorach and Khaine's very much Warp and Eldar nature I prefer the conception of them as purely being Warp Gods.

The Eldar 'Gap Year' idea is what I also though to be honest, it is interesting. Then again I feel Tau and Eldar have a great potential for fluff which is largely untapped at all.

As for the combat, the implication appears to be that the Eldar generally reacted defensively only and, once satisfied they were no longer in danger, simply ceased. Part of this mindset is probably meant to be with regards to their slovenly nature, their feeling of invincibility meant that they felt no drive to continue a war beyond initial victory.

Still I would love more expansion of the Phoenix Lords, its tragic to me how unimportant and weak they are in fluff.

It's definitely possible that they're all purely manifestations of the various parts of the Eldar psyche.

My personal favourite interpretation is that they began as Old Ones, and then after they were wiped out the Eldar deified them. As the Eldar are a uniquely psychic race, this deification manifested the pantheon of warp gods we know. They could resemble the Old Ones, or they could be vastly different based on how the myths of the Eldar evolved. In this, the Eldar Gods are and always were manifested warp entities. However, they're entities based on the racial memories of their creators, the Old Ones. Similar to how God is pictured as a white-haired bearded man in a robe, and the pagan gods before him are based on the natural world around them. Both of which are a reflection upon our cultural history.

Regards the Tau and Eldar, I feel it's best if that mystery is left very much alone. Exposing too much could hurt the Tau's credibility somewhat, which they've fought to improve with the newer Orwellian-flavour fluff they've built for them. Making them explicit pawns of the Eldar would devalue them I think. Best keep it a sinister mystery in the background, where we have no idea of the motivations or who (if anyone) was involved.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

nou wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


However, I remember reading a story somewhere (2nd ed Eldar codex?) that the way that Khaine found out that there was a mortal blade mixed in with the rest of Vaul's weapons was that one of his warriors was tiring during a battle with the Yngir (C'Tan). That could place the extinction of the Old Ones after the events of the Eldar War in Heaven.

I can't see any reference to such "exhausting batlle" in 2nd ed codex. And the entire Eldar War in Heaven in 2nd ed is described as a conflict between Khaine and Vaul, with sword forgery being the reason for it, and the end and result being chaining Vaul to his anvil. There is only one sentence about Yngir being demi-god giants (p.83) and various gods changing sides and alliances during this war (but it is not clear, if those "uncertain alliances" were connected to Yngir anyhow - this is just one, poorly written sentence...)

Hmmm, that was the source from Lexicanum for it. I'll see if I can dig out my copy and find it.

It is the WD article about the myths of the Eldar and how Khaine fought the Nightbringer and got a bit of necrodermis embedded into his burning body. The earlier part of the myth claimed Khaine equipped a band of Eldar heroes with the 100 blades of Vaul, and how these heroes formed a defensive circle against the Necrons, only for the circle to be broken because there was a weak point (i.e. the one hero who got the mortal blade). That was supposedly how Khaine discovered the forgery.

As for warp entities, the problem is they are shaped by the beliefs and desires of the population feeding them. If the Eldar believe a goddess Isha created them, a warp entity identifying itself as Isha could form in the warp, and believe it really had created the Eldar (and tell the Eldar this), even though it was the Eldar that created Isha. What the Eldar believed and what really happened may therefore be different.

Iracundus wrote:


It is the WD article about the myths of the Eldar and how Khaine fought the Nightbringer and got a bit of necrodermis embedded into his burning body. The earlier part of the myth claimed Khaine equipped a band of Eldar heroes with the 100 blades of Vaul, and how these heroes formed a defensive circle against the Necrons, only for the circle to be broken because there was a weak point (i.e. the one hero who got the mortal blade). That was supposedly how Khaine discovered the forgery.

As for warp entities, the problem is they are shaped by the beliefs and desires of the population feeding them. If the Eldar believe a goddess Isha created them, a warp entity identifying itself as Isha could form in the warp, and believe it really had created the Eldar (and tell the Eldar this), even though it was the Eldar that created Isha. What the Eldar believed and what really happened may therefore be different.

Thankyou! I've been looking everywhere for that

That could also be true regarding the Eldar gods. The issue is that there's no way to rule out any interpretation so far based on the information we have, so (as ever with the 40k universe), it's up to you to decide which you believe is true.

Also, when reading through the 3rd ed. Craftworld Eldar expansion I've struck upon a couple of interesting things.

First off, it states that 'It was Khaine who started the War in Heaven, defying even Asuryan, the greatest of the Eldar gods. Khaine defeated and bound the god Vaul to his anvil for helping Isha and Kurnous escape the war god, and he fought alongside the demi-gods of the Yngir to cast the children of Isha from Heaven'.

It predates the Necron fluff I think, but by later connecting the Yngir with the Necrons it makes it very interesting. It would appear that the Eldar War in Heaven occurred during the Necron/Old One war, and that Khaine began the conflict on the side of the C'Tan against the Eldar and the other gods.

Whatsmore, Khaine started it! Does that mean Khaine could be a racial memory of the Silent King? (jokes, of course, although it adds to my general dislike of the Newcron fluff still further). Either that, or did the Old Ones actually shoot first?

In the Oldcron fluff, who was it that initiated the conflict with the Old Ones? Is there a named C'Tan, or is it just 'they declared war'.

An eldar ranger interrogated by the Inperium said that 'the stars once lived and died at our command', indicating the possible ability to create and destroy stars with ease, although given the source that may well be lies and deceit to try and intimidate the interrogator.

This comment/question above i can answer. The answer we get comes from the book Valedor and the 7th edition Eldar Codex.

* in the book Valedor by Guy Haley, great read by the way with great insights into Eldar politics in the 41st millennium, after Biel-tan is repulsed on the books name sake by the tyranids the Craftworlders look for additional last second assistance in stopping the Tyranids and discover through a vision that the help will come form the Dark Eldar. The dark eldar arrive with a fleet, piss a bunch of people off, but most interestingly at the insistence of Asdrubael Vect they deliver a bit of ancient Eldar empire tech called the Fireheart with was used back then to destroy planets and potentially collapse stars. They deploy the tech and it successfully destroy the planet.

* It is later noted in the book in dismay by a main character, Aloec Sunspear, that the eldar once again had the power to destroy worlds but not build them as they had the maiden worlds. It is revealed in the 7th edition codex that sunspear and the combine dmight of Iyanden and Biel-tan deploy the fireheart multiple times to destroy planets in the wake of the Tyranids to halt their advance and starve them to death.

Also of note for this thread i fear many hear are confusing Eldar myth with known fact. What we know fluff wise is that the Eldar fought the necrons in the conflict known as the war in heaven. And that confusingly the eldar had a mythological war in heaven as well but the two instances were separate occurrences if the latter even occurred at all. I do believe i read somewhere that the new eldar gods where a part of the reason the C'tan were weakened before being betrayed by the necrons but i'm not sure this entire period of fluff is hazy and contradictory at best.

Also on a final note the Eldar were created by the old ones but seem to have either forgotten this or intentionally repressed it which leads me to theorize that the Eldar old one relationship wasn't a happy one and the war in heaven may have pushed them further apart.

Not going to add much to your guys highly interesting conversation but here are some links that you might find helpful for your discussions as you are referring to the War in Heaven both accounts.

1st Edition Eldar including the Fall and the Tears or Isha
http://web.archive.org/web/20120504210049/http://www.gamehobby.net/subject_indexes/subject_wh40k_eldar.html

Dawn of the C'tan - The Necron War in Heaven
http://web.archive.org/web/20080406181835/http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/

Birth of the Eldar Knights and life shared with mankind
http://web.archive.org/web/20120826151238/http://www.gamehobby.net/subject_indexes/subject_epic_40k.html

 husker98 wrote:
An eldar ranger interrogated by the Inperium said that 'the stars once lived and died at our command', indicating the possible ability to create and destroy stars with ease, although given the source that may well be lies and deceit to try and intimidate the interrogator.

This comment/question above i can answer. The answer we get comes from the book Valedor and the 7th edition Eldar Codex.

* in the book Valedor by Guy Haley, great read by the way with great insights into Eldar politics in the 41st millennium, after Biel-tan is repulsed on the books name sake by the tyranids the Craftworlders look for additional last second assistance in stopping the Tyranids and discover through a vision that the help will come form the Dark Eldar. The dark eldar arrive with a fleet, piss a bunch of people off, but most interestingly at the insistence of Asdrubael Vect they deliver a bit of ancient Eldar empire tech called the Fireheart with was used back then to destroy planets and potentially collapse stars. They deploy the tech and it successfully destroy the planet.

* It is later noted in the book in dismay by a main character, Aloec Sunspear, that the eldar once again had the power to destroy worlds but not build them as they had the maiden worlds. It is revealed in the 7th edition codex that sunspear and the combine dmight of Iyanden and Biel-tan deploy the fireheart multiple times to destroy planets in the wake of the Tyranids to halt their advance and starve them to death.

Also of note for this thread i fear many hear are confusing Eldar myth with known fact. What we know fluff wise is that the Eldar fought the necrons in the conflict known as the war in heaven. And that confusingly the eldar had a mythological war in heaven as well but the two instances were separate occurrences if the latter even occurred at all. I do believe i read somewhere that the new eldar gods where a part of the reason the C'tan were weakened before being betrayed by the necrons but i'm not sure this entire period of fluff is hazy and contradictory at best.

Also on a final note the Eldar were created by the old ones but seem to have either forgotten this or intentionally repressed it which leads me to theorize that the Eldar old one relationship wasn't a happy one and the war in heaven may have pushed them further apart.

Ah, good to know that the 'creating and destroying planets and suns' was a solid fact.

On the myth vs reality perspective, I absolutely get the difference between the primary source of what we're told from an out-of-universe perspective about the Necron War in Heaven and the secondary (or tertiary) source in-universe about the Eldar War in Heaven, but there are too many parallels to not draw the conclusion that they're likely the same event (or parts of the same event at least) remembered from two different perspectives. That's even discounting the fact that they're called the same thing! I know you could put that down to GW incompetence, but the first Necron codex was certainly not written by an incompetent writer, and the level of tie-in with the Eldar fluff would have necessitated a degree of familiarity that would make calling them the same thing an accident a highly unlikely possibility.

The only real conclusion we can draw from that is that parallels were intentionally drawn between the two to try and get people to think a little deeper about it.

The other major point in the favour of the Eldar myths being based in (40k) reality is the nature of 'myths' themselves. In the real world, myths evolve from the continual evolution of a culture's oral history, where key things such as the origin of a culture, major conflicts and other such events are recorded in an often metaphorical state.

Think of myths as history told in the form of chinese whispers, where things will be skewed over time, but often you can pick out key things if you have a perspective from multiple points along the line.

The people who write the background of 40k are on the whole (I'm sure contrary to a lot of popular belief), very smart and imaginative people. Things like this will not be lost on them, and there is an intentional suggestion through the nature of belief in the 40k universe that many of the events in the myth and legend of many 40k cultures are based in real events, if not outright true.

Ultimately, it's up to each individual reader to make what he wants of the 40k fluff, which I think is the real enduring draw that 40k (and many tabletop games thinking about it) have to them. It's not just that the battles we fight now are about your dudes, through the purposeful ambiguity implied in every aspect of 40k fluff you can apply the 'your dudes' philosophy to the whole universe. It's really very clever

Saying that, it's my opinion that if you look a little closer at a lot of things said and implied in the 40k fluff, that you can build a much greater and more nuanced fictional universe than is apparent on the surface. Plus, it's fun

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Not going to add much to your guys highly interesting conversation but here are some links that you might find helpful for your discussions as you are referring to the War in Heaven both accounts.

1st Edition Eldar including the Fall and the Tears or Isha
http://web.archive.org/web/20120504210049/http://www.gamehobby.net/subject_indexes/subject_wh40k_eldar.html

Dawn of the C'tan - The Necron War in Heaven
http://web.archive.org/web/20080406181835/http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/

Birth of the Eldar Knights and life shared with mankind
http://web.archive.org/web/20120826151238/http://www.gamehobby.net/subject_indexes/subject_epic_40k.html

Thanks for the background on the Knights. I'd read about them before, but it's good to read a direct quote. I've been coming up with some fluff of my own on Exodite worlds, and possible different cultures for them, trying to embed them in the existing fluff there is for exodites. Have a read if anyone's interested, it's in the link in my sig (there's a post with a load of spoilers, that's the one). Would love to get some feedback

I've had an idea for how to represent the 'eldar knight world' aspect of exodite culture, separate to my 'technobarbarian eldar' aspect which is my favourite.

My idea for Eldar knight worlds is to use converted Guardians/Dire Avengers as serfs, clansmen and bondsmen. Above them are 'Lancers' which will be War Walkers (likely with Bright Lances or Scatterlasers), which will be the light cavalry. Above them will be 'Paladins' which will be Wraithlords (there's a kickass conversion out there using a War Walker cockpit and Wraithlord parts that would be ideal), which will be the heavy cavalry. Then, above that is a 'Towering Destroyer' which would be a converted Wraithknight. Would make a cool fluffy army based on Eldar techno-cavalry

Little bit of info i just found on my 2nd ed codex i never paid attention before.

Asurmen lead a bunch of exiliates away from the crone worlds and their decadence to an *inhospitable* world his people colonized.

He built there the Temple of Asur and the 1st Asurya trained there before spread across the Galaxy. The planet was Destroyed during the Fall and the real 1st personality of Asurmen died there figthing the hordes of Slaanesh.


This mean the *Exarchs* abilty to merge souls was already a known effect among them or just evolved after the fall.

Very interesting...

That would suggest that they knew about that ability to merge souls pre-Fall, and likely it could have been intentional that they made suits of armour designed to do this.

Perhaps the Asuryata knew that the Eldar would need strong military leadership if they were to survive, and made the first exarch suits to ensure they would always be able to lead the Eldar even if they fell in battle.

Either that, or after they died and their souls were captured in soul stones the Eldar decided to try and resurrect them with exarch suits.

Either way is interesting I wonder what the Asurmen book has to say on that...

We know that Asurmen was still living on one of the Crone Worlds after the Fall for a span of time at least long enough for an Eldar infant to make it to adulthood (Jain Zar was too young to remember the Fall itself but was a young adult when he met her)

He also underwent some kind of metamorphosis when he met her, too, turning from a fairly average Eldar into some kind of super-warrior with enhanced speed, strength and skill, so it's quite possible that the whole 'Exarch' concept of multiple souls inhabiting armour was new as well and started with him.

Ah yes, I'd read that about Jain Zar. From what's hinted at about Eldar maturation rates that could be quite a long period of time they were there.

I don't know how much detail they go into in the book, but could it be that the Phoenix Lords actually pre-date the Fall, and are relics from the Eldar's ancient warlike past?

It's just struck me that if Asurmen was a normal person who suddenly became a super-warrior, donning an ancient warsuit containing the personality of a hero who fought in the War in Heaven would explain that perfectly.

The evidence is against that being true, but it would be an interesting tack to take with them...

He didn't put on a suit to gain the powers, no. After meeting the girl who would become Jain Zar and pondering whether he should go and save her, he had some kind of apotheosis in the temple of the Gods where he was residing (apparently the lingering essence of the Eldar Gods was enough to keep the Daemons away) which turned him into the Phoenix Lord.

Ah, so it was a sort of 'imbued with the lingering essence of a dead god to save his people' style thing.

I'm cool with that

The exact method or how he went from Iliathin, an Eldar of no remarkable great talents, to Asurmen is not exactly given in the book. It could have been a spiritual awakening, like the Buddha, or maybe it was a bit of Asuryan, but that is all speculation.
I did give this exact feedback to Gav Thorpe about how that all important transition was kind of flubbed. His response was to say it was a word count limit. I say it was a lost opportunity instead of wasting space on the other arc in the book. The awakening of Asurmen could have been a whole metaphysical journey or meditation taking up a whole chapter, or even more, by itself.

Yeah I've heard that criticism before actually, that the story of Illiathin/Asurmen was the most compelling part of the book and could have done with some more air time.

Still, from my first few starts of reading Gav Thorpe's Path series, I feel like he really gets the Eldar and what they're about. Makes a great change compared to stuff like Fulgrim strangling an Avatar (it's a daemon made of steel and fire, what part of that implies that it needs to breathe air...).

I know he certainly did the earlier Eldar codices which are brilliant too

Meh. I thought Path of the Eldar was a decent series let down by unlikable main characters and re-hashing the same event over and over again. I can't help but compare it to the Dark Eldar trilogy, which was stuffed full of amazing characters who you couldn't help but root for despite them all being absolutely awful people.

It's a strange thing, really, because Gav's supporting characters tend to be pretty good. Stormlance in Asurmen was great and Lecthennian and the Kami in Outcast were both cool as well.

It's the Dark Eldar ones that I've started actually I've heard great things about Path of the Incubus, and the relationship between Morr and Motley especially...