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I'm just wondering, in a non tournament setting, would you allow your opponent to use custom made units, and rules for those units?

For example a guy at my flgs brought in a scratch built dark eldar wraithknight. It had basic wraithknight rules with some dark eldar themed rules and a points increase.
I allowed it in our game, and it didn't make his army op.

Would you allow the same in a non tournament setting?

I voted yes as long as it's

a) Not too powerful with a precedent set by other units. The example you used seems fair to me.

b) Actually looks like it could work. While it would be cool to attach 30 space marine jump packs to a Land Raider and call it a "Leapie Box," allowing it to jump all over the map or hover, I don't think I could stop laughing long enough to play a game.

It's also nice if it fits with a narrative. A Dark Eldar Wraithknight seems very plausible. I would want to hear a good story about the unit and where it came from. What's the history, why does it exist.

 Marmatag wrote:
I



b) Actually looks like it could work. While it would be cool to attach 30 space marine jump packs to a Land Raider and call it a "Leapie Box," allowing it to jump all over the map or hover, I don't think I could stop laughing long enough to play a game.

GW, get on that please.

I'm going to make one of those. I need it now.

It depends on the person, the unit, and the time spent on it.

Is the person an donkey-cave? No thanks.

Is the unit reasonable? Similar to something else? Why can't the something else be used?

Is it a Tonka Toy or did he do some heavy conversion work with a Bastion + Baneblade + Stompa bits!

 Madoch1 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I



b) Actually looks like it could work. While it would be cool to attach 30 space marine jump packs to a Land Raider and call it a "Leapie Box," allowing it to jump all over the map or hover, I don't think I could stop laughing long enough to play a game.

GW, get on that please.

I thought they did, and called it a Thunderhawk Gunship (I was actually surprised in the HH books when they described them as something that was meant to be short term to fill the shortages of proper transports (stormbirds).

icn1982 wrote:

 Madoch1 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I



b) Actually looks like it could work. While it would be cool to attach 30 space marine jump packs to a Land Raider and call it a "Leapie Box," allowing it to jump all over the map or hover, I don't think I could stop laughing long enough to play a game.

GW, get on that please.

I thought they did, and called it a Thunderhawk Gunship (I was actually surprised in the HH books when they described them as something that was meant to be short term to fill the shortages of proper transports (stormbirds).

Couldn't the BA deepstrike landraiders for a bit?

On a serious note, I would also like some good background to go with it.

Or though not quite the same, my IG army will have several things that use the rules for something from the book, but wont look anything like the real thing (The super heavies are the main culprits). The most obvious example would be the Baneblade - its most likely going to look more like the old Epic Ork Titans (what were they called, Gorkanaughts?), they were basically large metal boxes on treads with an Ork like head on top with stupid amounts of weapons. The reason being for my army is that they are not Baneblades at all, but converted Ash Waste Haulers. So I would be using a very custom model, but the rules and points value of something from the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NivlacSupreme wrote:

icn1982 wrote:

 Madoch1 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I



b) Actually looks like it could work. While it would be cool to attach 30 space marine jump packs to a Land Raider and call it a "Leapie Box," allowing it to jump all over the map or hover, I don't think I could stop laughing long enough to play a game.

GW, get on that please.

I thought they did, and called it a Thunderhawk Gunship (I was actually surprised in the HH books when they described them as something that was meant to be short term to fill the shortages of proper transports (stormbirds).

Couldn't the BA deepstrike landraiders for a bit?

I do remember many years ago that Forgeworld produced a Thunderhawk that had two land raiders carried under it (I think they were also the old style landraiders)

Thunderhawk Transporter. It sucks, by the way, unless you're playing on a board the size of a gym.


As for custom units... It depends entirely on circumstances, but generally, I don't mind unless they're blatantly written to be overpowered.

 Marmatag wrote:

It's also nice if it fits with a narrative. A Dark Eldar Wraithknight seems very plausible. I would want to hear a good story about the unit and where it came from. What's the history, why does it exist.

To my understanding, Vect's Castigators (is that what they're called?) are basically wraith constructs piloted by delusional and tortured souls (compared to the Craftworlders' version where they are piloted by the honored dead). It's not completely outside the realm of possibility that something similar could happen with a Wraithknight.

If you're a stranger, I'd be happier if it were just an allied WK painted up in a DE scheme, I'd go so far as to allow it to be a DE model as far as detachment goes (so it could count as a Dark Eldar Lord of War in a Dark Eldar CAD if you wish), but if you're going to give it special rules I would prefer the following:

1) I know you and trust you well enough to believe you're doing this thematically instead of just seeking to powerhouse. I play to win with my friends but I do it with the models I have and not the rules I make up to give me a crazy advantage.

2) Upon reading the rules you've written, it doesn't make it overpowered (as in the example given by the OP of this thread). For example, just because it becomes a DE unit doesn't mean it can equip a third scatter laser. However, for a points cost increase over a standard WK it could get Power From Pain or something similar thematically considering it already has fnp, I don't know. Totally custom rules would depend on what you made up, and hey there's always the chance to talk it out and tone it down, or even power it up based on the points you assigned to it, before the game. I don't want your sweet custom model to totally suck, either.

That's just using the WK example posted in the OP, but I'd hold similar views on any custom models/units. I'm really not a fan of the idea, but the above is what I'd try to figure out with my opponent first before just saying a flat and final no.

In casual I've let people field Coke Bottles as Drop Pods.
In a tournament I'd still let that fly as long as the Coke bottle is well painted.

So far in tournaments I've faced
Balrog as a Daemon Prince
Space Wolves riding My Little Pony dolls
$2 Army Men wearing Space Marine helmets and pauldrons
An Orkz Stompa made out of hotwheels cars
A Blood Crusher made out of Mechano and a Ken or Action Man doll
Bloodhounds made out of Fen Wolves and CSM bits

Only grouch I've ever had is that I can't come up with such funny stuff myself.

If it makes sense both fluff-wise and crunch-wise, and/or has a hilarious model. Dave Taylor once painted up a relic Land Raider with hull Assault Cannons and Hurricane Plasma Sponsors for example. I'd fight something like that if appropriately costed.

Would I allow it in a pick up game. Na no chance. Just use the regular stats or the thing closest to it, and go unbound if you can't field it. Arguing about the unit being fairly priced is a hassle and no fun.

In a game with guys I know for years, yeah sure if we both like the rules.

If its someone I'd be willing to play more than once then I think I'd probably be fine with attempts at home brew rules because I've already established they are an okay galgirl. Bonus points if the unit is something that should exist (but doesn't) or has convincing home-brew background to go with the rules.

Can't see myself agreeing to it with a stranger. Would let a friend do it as a challenge.

I've done that with characters before, or a space marine chapter once or twice

In a non-tournament setting and as long as the homemade unit was set up properly, absolutely. I try to hold other people to the same standards I hold myself to on homemade rules; there needs to be a good reason for them to exist, other possibilities (proxying, admitting that not every lore distinction has to come with a rule) need to have been exhausted, and there has to be acknowledgement that houserules are in perpetual beta and subject to review based on test data, on top of the obvious bar of 'the rules need to make a modicum of sense', but if the other guy is working off those foundations I'm happy to play against homemade rules.

(I also try to work off of the premise that OP things may be there because they haven't gotten tested out rather than any intent to build OP stuff and crush people, it keeps hard feelings/loud arguments to a minimum.)

 oldzoggy wrote:
Would I allow it in a pick up game. Na no chance. Just use the regular stats or the thing closest to it, and go unbound if you can't field it. Arguing about the unit being fairly priced is a hassle and no fun.

In a game with guys I know for years, yeah sure if we both like the rules.

Good point. But there are some units out there that are in the unfortunate position of being similar enough to current units but different enough to almost warrant there own rules.

Units like the Venenum Assassin, Vanus Assassin, Malal Demons, Demiurg. Or even units that have been retconned out of existence (saharduin, Squats, etc)

One pet project I've wanted to do is a Space Dwarves army that "counts as" Necrons. Reanimation Protocols as Dwarven toughness, Lychguard as Hammerers/Ironbreakers, Monolith Land Trains, and Resurrection Orbs being Bugman's Finest.

Custom model: yes, as long as the quality is at least as good as the official model (no cheap toys with 40k bits glued on) and it looks like a reasonable fit for the rules. And that includes LOS/footprint/etc, no custom transport vehicles with extra disembarking range or similar abuses.

Custom rules: no. I'm not interested in your awful fan codex or your special snowflake marine chapter. 40k is already enough of a bloated mess that there's probably something in the existing rules that will work well enough without having to invent your own rules. The exception would be if I know you and we've agreed to use a limited amount of custom rules in the context of a narrative game/campaign, for representing new characters/mission-specific units/etc.

(And of course I'm open to discussion of custom rules in the context of "fix this thing GW broke", like putting an OOP unit back into your codex so you can keep using your existing army, but these aren't really the same as coming up with entirely new stuff.)

 Madoch1 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Would I allow it in a pick up game. Na no chance. Just use the regular stats or the thing closest to it, and go unbound if you can't field it. Arguing about the unit being fairly priced is a hassle and no fun.

In a game with guys I know for years, yeah sure if we both like the rules.

Good point. But there are some units out there that are in the unfortunate position of being similar enough to current units but different enough to almost warrant there own rules.

Units like the Venenum Assassin, Vanus Assassin, Malal Demons, Demiurg. Or even units that have been retconned out of existence (saharduin, Squats, etc)

If I wanted to house rule Venenum Assassin I wouldn't need a model. I'd just play my second edition virus outbreak card .

 Madoch1 wrote:

Units like the Venenum Assassin, Vanus Assassin, Malal Demons, Demiurg. Or even units that have been retconned out of existence (saharduin, Squats, etc)

Just model them in a cool way and use the closest thing in the game for rules I do not see the issue really.

Squads -> Guard or SM rules with your squad models.
saharduin -> Tyranid warriors
Demiurg -> Tau
Malal demons -> Khorne daemons
Vanus assasins -> Librarian with technomancy + Divination and digital weapons.
Venenum assasin -> Use an xenos inquisitor with Rad grenades and venom weapons.

Or use whatever you deem to fit.

No need to argue about those extra +1 I or +1 attack etc. with your opponent those small bonuses aren't the reason why you play those cool converted mini's are they.

 Marmatag wrote:

It's also nice if it fits with a narrative. A Dark Eldar Wraithknight seems very plausible.

Yes, very plausible, from people who don't use spirit stones, don't have the infinity network etc.

Also, whatever you bring, if it looks like gak and it's not even GW official gak, please don't bring it

I'm all for creativity, but my little ponies, butterflies and 2-bit conversions really aren't cool.

morgoth wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

It's also nice if it fits with a narrative. A Dark Eldar Wraithknight seems very plausible.

Yes, very plausible, from people who don't use spirit stones, don't have the infinity network etc.

Also, whatever you bring, if it looks like gak and it's not even GW official gak, please don't bring it

I'm all for creativity, but my little ponies, butterflies and 2-bit conversions really aren't cool.

Because they don't use or have, due they not needing it don't means they can't or know how.

Wraithknight are twin piloted, one live one dead, the living one it's going mad/suffering some odd accident where his brother soul wasn't properly protected and Slaanesh it's devouring it and driving him mad, so he joined the Dark eldar since this way he can *power up/charge* his dead brother soul from others pain long enough to avoid it being devoured by Slaanesh.

We have custom units and even more so custom characters all the time so sure.

Albeit you would have to make them 2nd ed compatible to play on our games but that's no big deal

From exactly oposite POV: I would never even suggest using my homebrew Exodites to a complete stranger. Simply because proving again and again, before and during a game, that all those "pesky special rules" are there for a perfect mathematical and thematical reasons, and that everything is playtested and calculated to be inline with reasonable power-level-per-point units from multiple codices isn't really the best way to spend my weekend.

OTOH I might try to convince someone to play against refined underdog units, because no one is realy scared of Guardians and will probably feel quite happy not to play against just another batch of scatterbikes.

Back to the OP question - inventing your own unit or faction is so much hobby fun, that I won't simply deny someone this pleasure based on prejudice alone. If I'm presented with complete entry description and I find it reasonable, then why not? And personally, I have a lot more against a crappy soda bottle drop pod with official rules than a stunningly converted but homebrew model/unit, which just needs a bit more playtesting and finetuning to not be autotake/OP.

nou wrote:
From exactly oposite POV: I would never even suggest using my homebrew Exodites to a complete stranger. Simply because proving again and again, before and during a game, that all those "pesky special rules" are there for a perfect mathematical and thematical reasons, and that everything is playtested and calculated to be inline with reasonable power-level-per-point units from multiple codices isn't really the best way to spend my weekend.

OTOH I might try to convince someone to play against refined underdog units, because no one is realy scared of Guardians and will probably feel quite happy not to play against just another batch of scatterbikes.

Back to the OP question - inventing your own unit or faction is so much hobby fun, that I won't simply deny someone this pleasure based on prejudice alone. If I'm presented with complete entry description and I find it reasonable, then why not? And personally, I have a lot more against a crappy soda bottle drop pod with official rules than a stunningly converted but homebrew model/unit, which just needs a bit more playtesting and finetuning to not be autotake/OP.

Now that's interesting. I agree inventing your own faction is a massive part of the hobby (just see my post in my signature), but so far I haven't felt the need to create my own special rules. The Codex is more than flexible enough to cover how I imagine my army. I wont deny that giving my guardsmen heavies heavy stubbers would be cool, but that's not a major issue. I'd could do a model with say 2-3 heavy stubbers attached to each other and call it an auto cannon, or have two heavies on a heavy weapons base and call it a heavy bolter, if I really want, but no reason to add extra rules and points costs. Same for me with the few super heavies I have in the list, a good model that fits the same footprint etc as a baneblade and uses the baneblade rules works fine for me.

I suppose in a way it sometimes comes down to which is more important for your army - Sticking with your fluff or army effectiveness - there are enough special rules and options out there that you should be able to find something that fits, you just might have to take a hit and use an unbound army rather than a FoC with some special rules. I would suggest that if you cant find something similar you should be asking yourself, do I really need these special rules and/or does the unit REALLY fit in with the fluff of the 40k universe - I mean Ogryn Space Marines would look cool, but I would have to really consider if they fit with the universe (would the genetic material even be compatible, would the Ogryn lack of intelligence be an issue, why hasn't the chapter been wiped out by the Imperium, who the hell is making the power armour and bolters for them, are there not units from the chaos space marine lists that would be more appropriate (rules wise).

I take the view, converted models if they look good/make sense, sure - but leave the homebrew special rules at home.

It depends a lot.
Firstly, I am not against homebrewed custom units and conversions, in fact I enjoy them as they bring an extra touch of flavour to a casual game. However, there are some limitations.
-Firstly, the model has to look good, and at least look like what it is representing.
-Secondly, I must be able to see any custom rules BEFORE the model is placed o the table.
-Thirdly, the model cannot just be a mary sue wishlist/super powered cheese/furious fan [rhymes with hank] character, it must actually have some form of balance.
-Fourthly, all of the above apply to any and all custom units/models, not just characters.

It is not that I get anal about slightlypowerful characters, it is just that I have had too much in the way of bad experiences (read the Timmy threads) to easily allow homebrewed models and rules.

icn1982 wrote:

nou wrote:
From exactly oposite POV: I would never even suggest using my homebrew Exodites to a complete stranger. Simply because proving again and again, before and during a game, that all those "pesky special rules" are there for a perfect mathematical and thematical reasons, and that everything is playtested and calculated to be inline with reasonable power-level-per-point units from multiple codices isn't really the best way to spend my weekend.

OTOH I might try to convince someone to play against refined underdog units, because no one is realy scared of Guardians and will probably feel quite happy not to play against just another batch of scatterbikes.

Back to the OP question - inventing your own unit or faction is so much hobby fun, that I won't simply deny someone this pleasure based on prejudice alone. If I'm presented with complete entry description and I find it reasonable, then why not? And personally, I have a lot more against a crappy soda bottle drop pod with official rules than a stunningly converted but homebrew model/unit, which just needs a bit more playtesting and finetuning to not be autotake/OP.

Now that's interesting. I agree inventing your own faction is a massive part of the hobby (just see my post in my signature), but so far I haven't felt the need to create my own special rules. The Codex is more than flexible enough to cover how I imagine my army. I wont deny that giving my guardsmen heavies heavy stubbers would be cool, but that's not a major issue. I'd could do a model with say 2-3 heavy stubbers attached to each other and call it an auto cannon, or have two heavies on a heavy weapons base and call it a heavy bolter, if I really want, but no reason to add extra rules and points costs. Same for me with the few super heavies I have in the list, a good model that fits the same footprint etc as a baneblade and uses the baneblade rules works fine for me.

I suppose in a way it sometimes comes down to which is more important for your army - Sticking with your fluff or army effectiveness - there are enough special rules and options out there that you should be able to find something that fits, you just might have to take a hit and use an unbound army rather than a FoC with some special rules. I would suggest that if you cant find something similar you should be asking yourself, do I really need these special rules and/or does the unit REALLY fit in with the fluff of the 40k universe - I mean Ogryn Space Marines would look cool, but I would have to really consider if they fit with the universe (would the genetic material even be compatible, would the Ogryn lack of intelligence be an issue, why hasn't the chapter been wiped out by the Imperium, who the hell is making the power armour and bolters for them, are there not units from the chaos space marine lists that would be more appropriate (rules wise).

I take the view, converted models if they look good/make sense, sure - but leave the homebrew special rules at home.

This post is a fine example of exactly why I wouldn't try to just put my Exodites on a table in a pick-up game As far as my knowledge about 40K rules and codices go, GW has currently no FMC mounted cavalry rules (I might have missed something from Daemons or Chaos GW or Forge World books I don't have acces to) and treating my Exodite dragon lord as a single entitiy with his dragon simply doesn't feel right fluff or game mechanics wise.

One other thing to consider when clashing your and mine POVs is that Imperial Factions have plenty of different sources to choose official rules from (as "count as" basis for conversions or "puzzles" for homebrew units), as Imperium takes up more than half of entire volume of GW and Forge World products. As for Eldar players, we have Craftworld, DE, Harlequins and Corsairs as sources for such "stripping". Please show me how I can build a unit of Exodite Knights that isn't ridicule "jetbike dragon cavalry with turboboosting paws" and has different battle role than Skyweavers with Zephyr Glaves without homebrewing? At minimum I have to "steal" rules from non-battle-brothers factions and go unbound "count as", at which stage I can as well homebrew my own units from scratch and have more fun with them.

So in a way, both of you agree that, as long as you're just count-as and reusing existing units from compatible sources, it's fine to offer a game to a complete stranger.

Whereas, if there's some heavy home brewing involved, might as well keep that for people you know and have warned.