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morgoth wrote:
So in a way, both of you agree that, as long as you're just count-as and reusing existing units from compatible sources, it's fine to offer a game to a complete stranger.

Whereas, if there's some heavy home brewing involved, might as well keep that for people you know and have warned.

Yes, you might say that But I like a bit different wording: that nobody should really be upset by facing a "count-as"/puzzle army of fine conversions. This is basically how playing against cherry-pick IoM armies feel like to Xenos players

morgoth wrote:
So in a way, both of you agree that, as long as you're just count-as and reusing existing units from compatible sources, it's fine to offer a game to a complete stranger.

Whereas, if there's some heavy home brewing involved, might as well keep that for people you know and have warned.

Damn you and your logic getting in the way of a perfectly good internet debate. We hadn't even gotten close to calling each other Nazi's or Hitler yet lol.

But yes, you are right, we do tend to agree.

icn1982 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
So in a way, both of you agree that, as long as you're just count-as and reusing existing units from compatible sources, it's fine to offer a game to a complete stranger.

Whereas, if there's some heavy home brewing involved, might as well keep that for people you know and have warned.

Damn you and your logic getting in the way of a perfectly good internet debate. We hadn't even gotten close to calling each other Nazi's or Hitler yet lol.

But yes, you are right, we do tend to agree.

So just to speed things up in the Nazi department here as we clearly run out of time: since it is I who make up houserules about xenophobic aristocrats riding dinosaurs to battle, I step forward to be a Hitler of this debate

To those blisfull, here is why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKPwtDjzJMI

nou wrote:

icn1982 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
So in a way, both of you agree that, as long as you're just count-as and reusing existing units from compatible sources, it's fine to offer a game to a complete stranger.

Whereas, if there's some heavy home brewing involved, might as well keep that for people you know and have warned.

Damn you and your logic getting in the way of a perfectly good internet debate. We hadn't even gotten close to calling each other Nazi's or Hitler yet lol.

But yes, you are right, we do tend to agree.

So just to speed things up in the Nazi department here as we clearly run out of time: since it is I who make up houserules about xenophobic aristocrats riding dinosaurs to battle, I step forward to be a Hitler of this debate

To those blisfull, here is why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKPwtDjzJMI

Aaah the goterdammerung, that's one true super heavy flyer.

nou wrote:

icn1982 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
So in a way, both of you agree that, as long as you're just count-as and reusing existing units from compatible sources, it's fine to offer a game to a complete stranger.

Whereas, if there's some heavy home brewing involved, might as well keep that for people you know and have warned.

Damn you and your logic getting in the way of a perfectly good internet debate. We hadn't even gotten close to calling each other Nazi's or Hitler yet lol.

But yes, you are right, we do tend to agree.

So just to speed things up in the Nazi department here as we clearly run out of time: since it is I who make up houserules about xenophobic aristocrats riding dinosaurs to battle, I step forward to be a Hitler of this debate

To those blisfull, here is why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKPwtDjzJMI

lol, For a group that likes games involving galaxy spanning conflicts, we can be a rather civilized bunch

icn1982 wrote:

nou wrote:

icn1982 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
So in a way, both of you agree that, as long as you're just count-as and reusing existing units from compatible sources, it's fine to offer a game to a complete stranger.

Whereas, if there's some heavy home brewing involved, might as well keep that for people you know and have warned.

Damn you and your logic getting in the way of a perfectly good internet debate. We hadn't even gotten close to calling each other Nazi's or Hitler yet lol.

But yes, you are right, we do tend to agree.

So just to speed things up in the Nazi department here as we clearly run out of time: since it is I who make up houserules about xenophobic aristocrats riding dinosaurs to battle, I step forward to be a Hitler of this debate

To those blisfull, here is why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKPwtDjzJMI

lol, For a group that likes games involving galaxy spanning conflicts, we can be a rather civilized bunch

Sorry for another YT spam, but this is too good oportunity not to quote this little marvel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0CdcCnLdtE

Lets say you make an incredibly valences unit with rules that allow for synergy and interesting tacticle options to your force, and while the unit it's self isn't op, it's effective application and proper use might make your opponent consider it op because it'a doing well. Also at what point is offering a codex a new option simply going too far? Each army should have some holes in them so they can be countered, and if you've new units made that can be lost. This begs the question, how good or unique can things really be?

@nou

That got a chuckle, had forgotten about that scene

Can you imagine what would have happened two years ago if someone went:
"Hey guys! Mind if my Jetbikes take Scatter Lasers?"

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Can you imagine what would have happened two years ago if someone went:
"Hey guys! Mind if my Jetbikes take Scatter Lasers?"

No problem, the guy suggesting it would've offered 20 points per bike and everyone would've thought: "hey, that's fair, even a bit overcosted".

20 pts is NOT overcosted for a scatterlaser.

Models yes, rules no.

morgoth wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Can you imagine what would have happened two years ago if someone went:
"Hey guys! Mind if my Jetbikes take Scatter Lasers?"

No problem, the guy suggesting it would've offered 20 points per bike and everyone would've thought: "hey, that's fair, even a bit overcosted".

And only 1 per 3!

flat out no. if it is a unit from another army go for it, you are using an unbound list and use it accordingly. if you are saying here are these rules I made up even if they seem reasonable I would prefer to not have to remember them and get confused with them later. happens enough about old codexes and versions of the game that adding more into the old thoughtbox just confuses me in my old age.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
In casual I've let people field Coke Bottles as Drop Pods.
In a tournament I'd still let that fly as long as the Coke bottle is well painted.

So far in tournaments I've faced
Balrog as a Daemon Prince
Space Wolves riding My Little Pony dolls
$2 Army Men wearing Space Marine helmets and pauldrons
An Orkz Stompa made out of hotwheels cars
A Blood Crusher made out of Mechano and a Ken or Action Man doll
Bloodhounds made out of Fen Wolves and CSM bits

Only grouch I've ever had is that I can't come up with such funny stuff myself.

2 of my drop pods are still plastic bottles. I replace them as I can. No one I've played has ever been bothered. At 30$ a pop and my needing 7 people understand.

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
In casual I've let people field Coke Bottles as Drop Pods.
In a tournament I'd still let that fly as long as the Coke bottle is well painted.

So far in tournaments I've faced
Balrog as a Daemon Prince
Space Wolves riding My Little Pony dolls
$2 Army Men wearing Space Marine helmets and pauldrons
An Orkz Stompa made out of hotwheels cars
A Blood Crusher made out of Mechano and a Ken or Action Man doll
Bloodhounds made out of Fen Wolves and CSM bits

Only grouch I've ever had is that I can't come up with such funny stuff myself.

2 of my drop pods are still plastic bottles. I replace them as I can. No one I've played has ever been bothered. At 30$ a pop and my needing 7 people understand.

Proxies are always fine with me as long as they mostly make sense and are not identical to other units that are different on the field. (like these 5 green army men are termies, these 5 identical ones posed and armed the same are devs, and those 5 exactly the same are scounts...) The OP seemed to my interpretation to mean like custom rules for a unit. like these guys are termies but with no inv save and cost x points less, keep relentless, cannot catch in a run attempt still, and have stealth

I wouldn't for tournament games.

In casual games sure. It's not like I care in that instance.

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
In casual I've let people field Coke Bottles as Drop Pods.
In a tournament I'd still let that fly as long as the Coke bottle is well painted.

So far in tournaments I've faced
Balrog as a Daemon Prince
Space Wolves riding My Little Pony dolls
$2 Army Men wearing Space Marine helmets and pauldrons
An Orkz Stompa made out of hotwheels cars
A Blood Crusher made out of Mechano and a Ken or Action Man doll
Bloodhounds made out of Fen Wolves and CSM bits

Only grouch I've ever had is that I can't come up with such funny stuff myself.

2 of my drop pods are still plastic bottles. I replace them as I can. No one I've played has ever been bothered. At 30$ a pop and my needing 7 people understand.

Honestly, you could've at least made a cardboard cutout of a drop pod x2 in a cross structure.

It doesn't cost anything and it's pretty quick to make.

When I was trying out 3WK builds near the end of 6th, I built 3 hardboard WK (black and white print, glue to hardboard, cut out, stand on hardboard base with harboard stand).

At least, they were the right size, obvious stand-ins, etc. - I still got flak for it because I supposedly was " a total WAAC who will not even buy the units he smashes others with " .... w/e.

Back in 3rd (or 4th?) White Dwarf released a rules set that allowed you to design your own official vehicle rules. Thing was when you tried to build an already existing vehicle in the game, it cost more than the original did by 5-30pts. This is how it should be done. You want to build a new unit? You pay slightly more for it. Without the actual official creation rules that everyone has access to (so its the same cost for everyone), I wouldnt allow a stranger to do it.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Back in 3rd (or 4th?) White Dwarf released a rules set that allowed you to design your own official vehicle rules. Thing was when you tried to build an already existing vehicle in the game, it cost more than the original did by 5-30pts. This is how it should be done. You want to build a new unit? You pay slightly more for it. Without the actual official creation rules that everyone has access to (so its the same cost for everyone), I wouldnt allow a stranger to do it.

It overcosted existing vehicles, but it also allowed things that completely broke the game. The old vehicle design rules are not something that should be held up as an example of how to make good rules.

Not so sure, if the rules were around now-a-days for 7th I think we'd find many of the vehicles GW have created are grossly underpriced in comparison to what anyone could make from the rules set, if they had a template to build from, it would stop so many variances in equality. The old wave serpent was a prime example. On the opposite end of the spectrum would be the Lord of Skulls. We all know it's 888pts because 'Khorne likes it', whereas if they had a template to build from it would most likely reflect a much fairer price.
A less obvious example is a Baal pred compared to a normal pred. A Baal does not gain fast from the LATF formation as it already has it whilst a normal pred does, therefore GW are effectively saying a tl assault cannon is worth 40pts more than an auto cannon (which is the equivalent of 2 lascannons on the exact same model). Outside the formation fast costs the pred 10pts so they are saying it's worth 30pts more in that case. Any sane person can see the ridiculousness of that. With a template for all to work from, things like that would not happen.

Proxy fine, new models/rules no.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Not so sure, if the rules were around now-a-days for 7th I think we'd find many of the vehicles GW have created are grossly underpriced in comparison to what anyone could make from the rules set, if they had a template to build from, it would stop so many variances in equality. The old wave serpent was a prime example. On the opposite end of the spectrum would be the Lord of Skulls. We all know it's 888pts because 'Khorne likes it', whereas if they had a template to build from it would most likely reflect a much fairer price.
A less obvious example is a Baal pred compared to a normal pred. A Baal does not gain fast from the LATF formation as it already has it whilst a normal pred does, therefore GW are effectively saying a tl assault cannon is worth 40pts more than an auto cannon (which is the equivalent of 2 lascannons on the exact same model). Outside the formation fast costs the pred 10pts so they are saying it's worth 30pts more in that case. Any sane person can see the ridiculousness of that. With a template for all to work from, things like that would not happen.

I think you just hit the nail on the head there. I've been trying to figure out why when I started out there wasn't (or at least didn't seem to be to my young eyes) any over powered or underpowered armies. I have a feeling that back then GW had a 'template' for creating units (so a baseline for stats, a set cost for increasing a stat, a set cost for increasing armour save etc. In dark millennium they included vehicle design rules, and I suspect they had something similar for the troops that the devs used). Also, I don't remember there being so many unique special rules.

I like how it's always so simple in the head of those who think only a few minutes about the problem.

Costing is very hard.

The illusion of balance can only exist due to ignorance of imbalance, and that's true for most games.

My answer can be summed up in my signature...

morgoth wrote:
I like how it's always so simple in the head of those who think only a few minutes about the problem.

Costing is very hard.

The illusion of balance can only exist due to ignorance of imbalance, and that's true for most games.

Yes, but if you start off with a baseline you have something to work with. You take the template, create the unit you want then playtest them then you make refinements. If anything, the template should be over-priced and then adjusted from there. Having created rules for all sorts of weapons, races and equipment in various RPG games, you will find most of them will have charts for creating you own items, but if you were to look at creating something from their main list using those rules you will find that you are usually having to pay slightly more for your crafted item (whether it be in gold, xp, in-game time, materials etc.)

This will usually prevent any game breaking items through min/maxing. Now, I realise that GW is in the business of selling miniatures, and so need to take a slightly different approach to tempt people to buy them. But I do wonder if special rules and discount points is the way to do this. Why not bring out the new shiny each month that is so rich in background and is such an awesome figure that everyone wants it. An alternative, if GW really wants to push selling miniatures (and I hope they don't go down this route), create characters, and even units that there are no specific models for, but if you buy this kit, this kit and maybe this kit, it is really easy to kit bash said character or unit.

But I think we are getting away from the main point of the thread.

Didn't there used to be a unit builder? was it ever invalidated by new rules? it was like 10pts. Per HP. Weapons costs? Rules like skimmer cost more but open top dropped cost. Used to be a old Super DE tank that gw had as an example. Also how do we even figure out points anymore. 888pt khorne dude vs 425pt IK makes GW points no sense these days.

Custom rules: not a chance, there are tons of armies, units and option available.

Scratch built/converted models: of course, that's the best part of the hobby to customize armies, i made a lot of conversions myself BUT they can respect the rule What You See Is What You Get, so an ork trukk made from plasticard or a toy would be acceptable, but not a can used as a drop pod.

I have seen some cheap whining and even a little agressive behaviour from people who A; made actually nice models, and B; wrote some new rules for them, instead of using some existing unit, at the time their opponents chose not to allow them to use their masterpieces. Sometimes this was even very surprising, as the people involved knew eachother well.

I had similar experiences over the years I have been playing WH40K. One time, I met a player who was very adamant about his new creation, practically needing to play it. I would allow his creation on one simple condition. He agreed before I could even explain said condition. So, basically, we set up, and after determining everything else, I simply reminded him of the deal. I told him to switch sides. Me playing his army, him playing mine. I then got a rather emotional rant about how my army would never stand a chance against his and the deal being unfair. I asked why it would be unfair, his custom models and rules were mentioned. I reminded him about the agreement on the extra condition, which turned out to be him playing against his own custom unit. That was his que to pack and leave, where some name-calling was aimed at me. Other people present were likely as surprised as me, or even more so as they wouldn't have allowed that custom unit in the first place.

Despite such, I still have the tendency to be somewhat open about it. If I know the player well, I might just sit down and discuss his or her new unit or rules a bit, offer to play two games to test it, with the first being a game with the new unit/rules under my control. The WH40K galaxy is too big a place to simply state "that couldn't exist". I am more reserved towards strangers, though. You just never know when a custom model and its custom rules sheet comes flying your way when you refuse to play against it, or offer to play it against their creator just to test it.

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:
I had similar experiences over the years I have been playing WH40K. One time, I met a player who was very adamant about his new creation, practically needing to play it. I would allow his creation on one simple condition. He agreed before I could even explain said condition. So, basically, we set up, and after determining everything else, I simply reminded him of the deal. I told him to switch sides. Me playing his army, him playing mine. I then got a rather emotional rant about how my army would never stand a chance against his and the deal being unfair. I asked why it would be unfair, his custom models and rules were mentioned. I reminded him about the agreement on the extra condition, which turned out to be him playing against his own custom unit. That was his que to pack and leave, where some name-calling was aimed at me. Other people present were likely as surprised as me, or even more so as they wouldn't have allowed that custom unit in the first place.

TBH, you were the one at fault here. A reasonable person would know that, in a game like 40k where personalizing your army is so important, being expected to switch sides and let your opponent use your army is a big deal. I would never agree to let someone handle the expensive and fragile models I've put so many hours into painting, and many people have similar feelings on the subject. You knew your opponent was likely to object, you had plenty of opportunities to inform your opponent of this detail before that point, and you decided to wait until the last minute to reveal the surprise. That's exceptionally poor behavior and I wouldn't be interested at all in playing a game against you in the future.