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Hey guys,

So as you know, I'm usually a tank guard army guy (Cadian armored company), and while it can be successful, it usually falls pretty quickly once infantry start getting too close. I already have an Imperial Knight Paladin with me but it's been sort of hit and miss. To be fair, it might work better with a Knight Gallant.

My question is how do people usually run an effective Guard army? Is Guard (on its own) considered effective? Would it be worth taking on allies of some kind?

Put some chaos bits on them and run them as traitor guard, it is much more effective.

I know it isn't the answer you want, but it is the most effective way to run a guard army.

There are some flexible options, but I am most successful when I run a core of 40 infantry blobbed with psyker and priest/commissar support and a conscript unit of 30-40. You will also want to use a CCS and wyverns. Orders are very good and can be considered psychic powers of a sort (the effects that the orders give like ignores cover) that only guard can get. Pask can get you by to a certain point, but once you get to a competitive level, he is a point sink as any good army can drop him easy. An allied knight and inquisitor are solid. The vulture is good and the vendetta is good.

This is what I have been successful with at least. Guard do not have a good answer for a wraithknight however.

Your tanks need to be supported by at least one blob of infantry. There's no way of getting around it. The blobs perform 3 vital functions. They keep deepstrikers out of melta range by way of taking up board space, they keep meelee combatants from smashing up your tanks, and they give your tanks cover by concealing 25% of the tank to most shooters.

Just grab a 50 man blob of conscripts and attach a priest. Even a wraithknight doesn't want to get stuck in melee with a 175 point fearless blob as they'll be stuck there all day even with stomps.

The inclusion of Wyverns in your army is almost a must as well, but don't get into the mindset of "kill them all before they get to me" because you simply cannot rely on that strategy to always work. The infantry are your backup plan for the all too common occurance of things getting close to your tanks.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
There are some flexible options, but I am most successful when I run a core of 40 infantry blobbed with psyker and priest/commissar support and a conscript unit of 30-40. You will also want to use a CCS and wyverns. Orders are very good and can be considered psychic powers of a sort (the effects that the orders give like ignores cover) that only guard can get. Pask can get you by to a certain point, but once you get to a competitive level, he is a point sink as any good army can drop him easy. An allied knight and inquisitor are solid. The vulture is good and the vendetta is good.

This is what I have been successful with at least. Guard do not have a good answer for a wraithknight however.

This is what I do as well and its pretty mean. The nerf to grenades just hurts. But there's nothing we can do about that I guess...

I've been using blobs with tanks, like I have around 50 or so dudes with a priest, but tbh, I guess I'm wondering if it's enough to be competitive? I haven't had the most wins tbh with this format.

Maybe I'm missing something in terms of tactics?

In general, is Guard considered really competitive?

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
I've been using blobs with tanks, like I have around 50 or so dudes with a priest, but tbh, I guess I'm wondering if it's enough to be competitive? I haven't had the most wins tbh with this format.

Maybe I'm missing something in terms of tactics?

In general, is Guard considered really competitive?

Guard is not CONSIDERED competitive but part of that is definitely due to the fact that the ITC super stars (top 2% or so) simply don't use that army (well i obviously would be one exception and there's a couple others). So its extremely hard to tell whether it ACTUALLY is, because there's just not enough good Generals playing them.

I did play Militarum Tempestus in 2 ITC events this year. I used the IG allies and the blob. I took 7th despite going undefeated at Obliteration 2016 (they have an odd scoring thing where its strictly based on what you kill, so even if you win, if you didnt kill as much as the guy playing next to you...) and then at Annihilation 4 where i legitimately came in 12th because I lost to Eldar/Tau combination of Riptide Wing + Drone Net + Eldar Forge World WraithKnights combo which seized on me (which was a shame since i got all the powers i was fishing for),. i absolutely annihilated the dual wolfstar at Annihilation 4 though. Tabled them.

This year i might play it more. i played Tau Empire, Eldar, orks, Militarum Tempestus, and Adepta Sororitas in these events this year and am thinking I might hit Night Lords, Militarum Tempestus and Adepta Sororitas more this year. i have always loved the Night Lords...

Anywho as far as IG goes, i think that a certain level of intestinal fortitude is required just because you lose stuff every round when you play them and you kind of have to have a plan going in. sometimes you have to even give up shooting altogether, something most guard players are loathe to do, but which, if they do not, will lerad to their demise. Blobs need to be moving constantly if they can, and threatening and hedging people into death boxes. Can't do that doing their best lump on a log imitation.

Maybe i will do a battle report next time i fight some kind of a mean list with them. there were only 311 people out of 5271 ITC ranked players who actually played games with them. Only 22, including me, that played Militarum Tempestus. So the sample size is so tiny that it is just impossble to really know how competitive they are other than anecdotally noting that few enough people wanted to test the theory. Lol.

It is worth noting that Wesley Pauley did indeed make the 400+ points club using them, so that is pretty good evidence that it CAN be done and he did it with only 8 Astra Militarum showings. Thats pretty significant. So a good general who commits to learnign it can and will be successful.

Yea on of the things I don't really do is move around much in my matches. I put my tanks hull down behind an Aegis line and shoot. It's worked sometimes but in at least the last two matches I played against re-rollable jink Raven wing bikers and speeders, it's been a bit tough. Maybe it's just who I played?

The only effective Astra Militarum armies I see are armored lists with lots of tanks. Most armies don't bring enough heavy weapons to bring down 9+ tanks, it's possible to exploit this against most opponents.

I have not read through the Codex in some time, but last I looked it was possible to field 14 tanks with blast weapons, AV 14 up front, and a 36 - 48 inch range. Please feel free to correct me, but this is devastating against most other armies.

Put your infantry in Stormlords? So Many overwatch shots!

 techsoldaten wrote:
The only effective Astra Militarum armies I see are armored lists with lots of tanks. Most armies don't bring enough heavy weapons to bring down 9+ tanks, it's possible to exploit this against most opponents.

I have not read through the Codex in some time, but last I looked it was possible to field 14 tanks with blast weapons, AV 14 up front, and a 36 - 48 inch range. Please feel free to correct me, but this is devastating against most other armies.

I think that only certain tanks are really strong. IG is a rather mediocre codex, so there's going to be a lot of controversy on this topic I think.

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Yea on of the things I don't really do is move around much in my matches. I put my tanks hull down behind an Aegis line and shoot. It's worked sometimes but in at least the last two matches I played against re-rollable jink Raven wing bikers and speeders, it's been a bit tough. Maybe it's just who I played?

stagnant guard are kind of a dangerous combo.

Best bet is to blob it up and use artillery. i am COMPLETELY unconvinced that the superior tank armor makes ENOUGH difference i nthe current game. Completely unconvinced.

I think as Guard you need to embrace the blob and the artillery, with some support units to gain the valuable first blood/Line Breaker and such for you. I think an Aeguis Line and Camo netting is an excellent alternative to the heavy armor of tanks.

It helps that the Emperor has provbided an Artillery formation that kicks serious butt. I would recommend anyone who likes a more stagnant approach use it in place of the tanks. the blob if pressed firmly and with enthusiasm up their nose will more than scare them. If they aren't the frist time they encounter it, they will be the second time they do.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
The only effective Astra Militarum armies I see are armored lists with lots of tanks. Most armies don't bring enough heavy weapons to bring down 9+ tanks, it's possible to exploit this against most opponents.

I have not read through the Codex in some time, but last I looked it was possible to field 14 tanks with blast weapons, AV 14 up front, and a 36 - 48 inch range. Please feel free to correct me, but this is devastating against most other armies.

Melee kills tanks just fine. I tabled my unfortunate opponent with a Dark Eldar melee list. Easy to fish for 5's and 6's when your volume of attacks is that high.

The toughest IG lists I play against are infantry/artillery, not tanks. The tanks are too fragile even for BA.

 carldooley wrote:
Put your infantry in Stormlords? So Many overwatch shots!

Until a Tau Stormsurge shows up. just its existence is enough for me to tell people to make damn sure there are no Tau around if you're going to use a Storm Lord. the Storm Lord is so good... But its still just armor.

In tournaments (specifically) I would definitely think about it before committing to that big boy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The toughest IG lists I play against are infantry/artillery, not tanks. The tanks are too fragile even for BA.

Did we just frigging agree? This is awesome! Martel! We agreed!

We agree on a lot of stuff. I just don't often have much to add. I've been pimping the Raptor talon in different threads, for example.

I think the Russ with the super autocannon turret is okay, and the ignore cover one, but that's about it.

I like the vanquishers, those things can really kill armor when they hit. I don't have a ton of artillery, I do have a manticore and a wyvern, but that's it really.

I do sometimes also run a vendetta and a Valkyrie for more firepower, instead of my knight.

So Guard tanks just aren't considered superb these days? Shame really, it's a great looking model, and pretty heavy armored. I guess there's just no superb way to keep them protected from melee guys beyond a point.

It's not melee. It's a lot of things. D-weapons for starters.

You really have to commit to tanks if your going to rely on them. I've had a baneblade die turn 1 from the amount of melta tau can carry on thier crisis suits not to mention marker lights. Trouble is guard units are big weak and can't carry that much special weapons or move that fast. It's an uphill battle for us but sometimes it is just the army your fighting. I tied flyrant spam before purely from mass S3 orders+psyker+conscripts. Seen commisars kill meganobz. We have our tricks but to really be competitive we need to list tailor which none of us really want to do.

Problem with guard is our options are super polarized. The perfect list is one that is prepared for horde or mass tank. Possible but hard to ballance.

You aren't playing an "Astra Militarum Army" though, you are using Guard as allies. The question posed by this thread, and probably on most IG player's minds, is "How do I run my Guard Army effectively" not "how do I run my X army with some IG allies effectively". It's very easy to make Guard good by relegating them to an allied slot. I realize that allies are a necessity for Guard in a competitive environment, but based on the thread title, the question posed is clearly, how do I run an AM army well.

What list did Wesley Pauley run? Was it Eldar with IG allied for 4 wyverns and a blob? This is a serious question because I do recall someone running a similar force and a select few held it up as an example of a competitive Guard army when it was in fact a competitive Eldar army with a few Gurad allies.

Let us try to answer the question what is the "Best way to run an Astra Militarum army" instead of what is the best way to run an Astra Militarum allied detachement. I'm being serious too, because I am constantly looking for ways to improve my pure AM army.

I understood the thrust of the thread. I also understand what you are saying in regards to Wesley Pauley and i cannot answer that.

I can convert almost my entire force to pure guard easily just by saying the Scions are part of it. Pretty much literally. Militarum Tempestus orders are very good. But you can play the army AS Astra Militarum without difficulty and with little change. I just happen to like the militarum Tempestus orders.

So nothing I have said is incorrect. I will post the list i used. I can post it in both the Militarum Tempestus + IG Allies version and the Astra Militarum version if you wish.

But ultimately the point is that since 6th Edition. "Pure" forces aren't going to be the ONLY option an IG player has so theres value in both discussions. If the majority of your force is IG then it is. Taking AN inquisitor to cut off scouts is a perfectly legitimate thing to want to do for example. It's the way of things. But when I get a cvhance I will post it to show you what I have done.

 Jancoran wrote:
I understood the thrust of the thread. I also understand what you are saying in regards to Wesley Pauley and i cannot answer that.

I can convert almost my entire force to pure guard easily just by saying the Scions are part of it. Pretty much literally. Militarum Tempestus orders are very good. But you can play the army AS Astra Militarum without difficulty and with little change. I just happen to like the militarum Tempestus orders.

So nothing I have said is incorrect. I will post the list i used. I can post it in both the Militarum Tempestus + IG Allies version and the Astra Militarum version if you wish.

But ultimately the point is that since 6th Edition. "Pure" forces aren't going to be the ONLY option an IG player has so theres value in both discussions. If the majority of your force is IG then it is. Taking AN inquisitor to cut off scouts is a perfectly legitimate thing to want to do for example. It's the way of things. But when I get a cvhance I will post it to show you what I have done.

Thanks, I for one would appreciate to see those lists to compare them to my own mediocre lists. You're right that Guard can improve their effectiveness exponentially with allies, but I think, and maybe I'm mistaken, that a lot of Guard players including myself like to be Guard purists. Or almost purists. At least a Guard majority. That's the impression I get from many of these discussions. Given the current Guard codex that purist stance necessarily entails sacrificing potential effectiveness, because allies can usually do any given job much better than the Guard equivalent unit, but making a really solid Guard list with just Guard can become an interesting challenge in and of itself.

Curious if my usual DoW shtick would actually be effective on the table, then;

Masses of Heavy Weapons teams, backed up by a load of turrets and Basilisks, in fortified positions that command most of the surrounding area, curcially including kill-zones that the enemy has to pass through to get anywhere.
I'm guessing it's not exactly what Artillery + Infantry entails. Not uncommon to hear bad things about Castling.

That aside, certainly the most effective display of the Guard I've seen is an Ogryn + Hellhound assault down the table. Much more "in your face" than any other list I've faced.

ExFideFortis wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I understood the thrust of the thread. I also understand what you are saying in regards to Wesley Pauley and i cannot answer that.

I can convert almost my entire force to pure guard easily just by saying the Scions are part of it. Pretty much literally. Militarum Tempestus orders are very good. But you can play the army AS Astra Militarum without difficulty and with little change. I just happen to like the militarum Tempestus orders.

So nothing I have said is incorrect. I will post the list i used. I can post it in both the Militarum Tempestus + IG Allies version and the Astra Militarum version if you wish.

But ultimately the point is that since 6th Edition. "Pure" forces aren't going to be the ONLY option an IG player has so theres value in both discussions. If the majority of your force is IG then it is. Taking AN inquisitor to cut off scouts is a perfectly legitimate thing to want to do for example. It's the way of things. But when I get a cvhance I will post it to show you what I have done.

Thanks, I for one would appreciate to see those lists to compare them to my own mediocre lists. You're right that Guard can improve their effectiveness exponentially with allies, but I think, and maybe I'm mistaken, that a lot of Guard players including myself like to be Guard purists. Or almost purists. At least a Guard majority. That's the impression I get from many of these discussions. Given the current Guard codex that purist stance necessarily entails sacrificing potential effectiveness, because allies can usually do any given job much better than the Guard equivalent unit, but making a really solid Guard list with just Guard can become an interesting challenge in and of itself.

To be fair...in this case...the allies just happen to be more of their own. So its not quite the same as wit hother allies you might discuss.

So I'm hearing mixed things. I hear more artillery and I heard a couple say more tanks. I have my infantry blob already, with a priest. And it works pretty well.

I'd be more than open to hearing good Guard allies as well, especially allies that would mix well with a tank list.

Right now, the strongest unit in the IG army is the Wyvern; twin-linked, shred, ignores cover, S4, AP6, Barrage, small blasts. Almost any IG army can benefit from having a few of these.

Here is the list I use (which as you can see can quickly and easily be switched to being purely Astra Militarum though it is stronger THIS way). Ill post my actual Astra Militarum list in a bit.

There is literally about 48 points separating the allied detachment from the main one and Astra Militarum can take the Storm Troopers as an elites choice.

• Militarum Tempestus Combined Arms Detachment

125pts 5 Tempestus Command (4 Volley Guns)
80pts Taurox Prime (Auto Cannons, Battle Cannon)

125pts 5 Tempestus Command (4 Volleyguns)
80pts Taurox Prime (Auto Cannons, Battle Cannon)

126pts 8 Scions (2 meltaguns)
80pts Taurox Prime (Auto Cannons, Battle Cannon)

126pts 8 Scions (2 meltaguns)
80pts Taurox Prime (Auto Cannons, Battle Cannon)

126pts 8 Scions (2 meltaguns)

948pts

Astra Militarum Allied Detachment
80pts Company Command Squad (4 Flamers)

75pts Primaris Psyker (Level 2, Force Staff)
75pts Primaris Psyker (Level 2, Force Staff)
50pts Primaris Psyker (Level 1, Force Staff)

25pts Ministorum Priest
25pts Ministorum Priest
25pts Ministorum Priest

160pts 2 Hydra Flakk batteries (both with Hunter Killer Missiles)

355pts 40 Imperial Guardsman (4x power Axes, 4 LasCannons, 3 Meltabombs)

30pts 5 man Platoon Command

900pts

Have you had a look in the imperial armour book. We can get manticore platforms for cheap. 2 squads of three platforms are giving you 6 7" blasts with lascannon stats a turn for four turns?

Jancoran wrote:Here is the list I use (which as you can see can quickly and easily be switched to being purely Astra Militarum though it is stronger THIS way). Ill post my actual Astra Militarum list in a bit.

There is literally about 48 points separating the allied detachment from the main one and Astra Militarum can take the Storm Troopers as an elites choice.

• Militarum Tempestus Combined Arms Detachment

125pts 5 Tempestus Command (4 Volley Guns)
80pts Taurox Prime (Auto Cannons, Battle Cannon)

125pts 5 Tempestus Command (4 Volleyguns)
80pts Taurox Prime (Auto Cannons, Battle Cannon)

126pts 8 Scions (2 meltaguns)
80pts Taurox Prime (Auto Cannons, Battle Cannon)

126pts 8 Scions (2 meltaguns)
80pts Taurox Prime (Auto Cannons, Battle Cannon)

126pts 8 Scions (2 meltaguns)

948pts

Astra Militarum Allied Detachment
80pts Company Command Squad (4 Flamers)

75pts Primaris Psyker (Level 2, Force Staff)
75pts Primaris Psyker (Level 2, Force Staff)
50pts Primaris Psyker (Level 1, Force Staff)

25pts Ministorum Priest
25pts Ministorum Priest
25pts Ministorum Priest

160pts 2 Hydra Flakk batteries (both with Hunter Killer Missiles)

355pts 40 Imperial Guardsman (4x power Axes, 4 LasCannons, 3 Meltabombs)

30pts 5 man Platoon Command

900pts

Interesting, so you're staying away from armor overall, opting instead to use transports, heavy weapons teams, and meltas. There's not even a ton of artillery in your list, which I find very surprising tbh.

Useless Sidekick wrote:Have you had a look in the imperial armour book. We can get manticore platforms for cheap. 2 squads of three platforms are giving you 6 7" blasts with lascannon stats a turn for four turns?

I've seen it, and I absolutely love my Manticore. That thing is really powerful when it hits a large blob of stuff. It can definitely really put a dent in things.

Are Wyverns really that good? Might pick a couple up if i start up my Tallarn project again. Guess they are best run in units of 3?

Bit of math in my head whats that 45 average hits? 34 wounded marines 11ish dead? seems pretty nasty.

Problem is i guess you have to spend loads of bodys around them to protect from deep strikers etc

Useless Sidekick wrote:
Have you had a look in the imperial armour book. We can get manticore platforms for cheap. 2 squads of three platforms are giving you 6 7" blasts with lascannon stats a turn for four turns?

I avoid Forgeworld like the plague to be honest. Those who like Forge world can kind of add or subtract accordingly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
Are Wyverns really that good? Might pick a couple up if i start up my Tallarn project again. Guess they are best run in units of 3?

Bit of math in my head whats that 45 average hits? 34 wounded marines 11ish dead? seems pretty nasty.

Problem is i guess you have to spend loads of bodys around them to protect from deep strikers etc

wyverns are ridiculously good.