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Armor has definitely seen a decline. It's a shame. My Sisters of Battle were more or less forced to mechanize, ironically, due to the sheer volume of devastating firepower and more importantly Psyker powers that buffet our chances. Almost all of my other armies make cursory use, at most, of armor.

Astra militarum artillery is worth it just because it tends to be cheaper and no less likely to die than Leman Russ's despite the armor difference, so that is why people have moved that way. Given no serious difference in survivability, why pay more, right?

Artillery can do so much in so little time that it's kind of the trade off you need.

I'm going to agree with FatBoyNoSlim here- Commissars are great. You get the option to Go To Ground, LD 9 with Stubborn, and you will be passing nearly every order on your blob in conjunction with either a Vox or the Cadian detachment from Mont'Ka (which is tought to scrape together model-wise but is really good if you can!). You also get pseudo-Fearless and have a whole bunch of extra Characters in the unit to refuse, or fight in, a challenge. Not bad in a fight if it comes down to it, but obviously not beastly. I've been running Commissars in my blobs and Priests in Conscript units and both work wonders. Psykers can definitely help blobs as well, although my recent return to Commissar use has made me rarely take them.

Tanks are weird- they occasionally win big but usually they seem to die in droves once you lose one or two. The Formation with the Leman Russ and Enginseers makes them surprisingly tough to normal, Strength- based shooting though.

I've had mixed success with Wyverns, but that's really because I most often fight Iron Hands these days, and motorized at that- just an extremely tough nut to crack when built to last.

Well its interesting. I am not certain I would want to go to ground like that. Reason: Although there is an order that can pop you back up agasin, an order you are likely to follow, it means that order is used for THAT and you lose a whole ton of movement. Like an average of 9.5 inches of potential order driven movement so it's actually pretty significant in that way.

Whereas if you just slap a 4+ invul and all the benefits of having a level 2 Psyker in the unit yields onto your 40 guys, you're never going to need to go to ground and are unlikely to want to. Just saying, that's how it seems to me.

I definitely see why the psyker is good- I have seen so many psychic phases amount to nothing at all though that I would default to the Commissar over one any day. When psykers work they are fantastic for sure. The Commissar is key to several very solid, if subtle buffs that can't really be easily countered though, and is a significantly cheaper character. It's not so much that you'll be going to ground all the time, more that if you do you want to get back up with ease, something no army other than perhaps Tyranids does at all like Guard can. I've found that being able to go to ground without having a serious cost/benefit analysis debate with myself is invaluable. I'd seriously encourage anyone to try one or two in a blob and see how solid they are, I have been very pleasantly surprised. The problem here is of course you don't really want to put more than one of the unit buff characters for Guard in a unit for the most part. I also find Psykers usually end up being tank buffers in the games I do play them in, rather than infantry support. It occurs to me that Commissars are in many ways pretty darn close to giving your blobs ATSKNF, which as far as I'm concerned is one of the most powerful rules in the game- except you also never fall back. Also I will put out there that a huge Conscript squad could also benefit from a Commisar if you use them as a First Rank Fire/Second Rank Fire unit rather than a straight tarpit. While it's not the conventional wisdom it's actually quite good, especially if you also benefit from the rerolls on lasguns that you get from Mont'Ka. That's an obscene number of shooting dice on dirt cheap models. It's actually a pretty hilarious thing watching the opponent become apoplectic with rage over your garbage flashlight mob killing something useful and throwing a ton of firepower at them after an obvious internal conflict over how stupid having to do so feels. You can laugh off the first Terminator or whatnot, but after that every other one, and every tactical they kill is just a slap in the face.

You're not wrong about sacrificed movement, but I run foot-heavy lists anyway so if I need to get there I can with something else often as not, often Scout Sentinels. Even if you never do go to ground though, that Commissar means that you'll have to lose him in order for the opponent to peel you off an Objective.

75 points to get a FORCE staff, bouncing powers on a 5+ or sometimes even 4+ and having the extra wound? Seeeeeeems worrh it once you add powers in. I dont dislike commissars but the only advantage IS going to ground. Im a Ben Franklin kind of guy.

You're not wrong that it's good, it just has been a crap shoot for me personally. The 75 points gets me three Commissars though which are incredibly reliable. Psykers are either MVP's or a waste of points every game I use them in. I think the Stubborn and pseudo-fearless are where it's at really, not so much just the GTG. I might see if the Astra Telepathica detachment does better heavy lifting. If Primaris came with a psychic hood I'd probably always take one. I think it's a YMMV though- they just haven't performed for me as well as I would like. I pretty much run the Commissars to effectively give me a shooting phase that's power wise similar to a decent psychic phase that's maybe less of a blowout but super reliable. Heck, I've seen Eldar, Dark Angels and Tyranids have completely useless Psychic phases about a third of the time, and they bring a fair bit of psychic might to the table in comparison to AM. I guess the Commissar synergies are stronger to me because they are so reliable and are automatic, no counter. We've all seen an opponent get boxcars on an important Deny roll. In a vaccuum Psykers are inarguably better for the points. I'm not sure about Force weapons, you still have to roll meaning denial or having not enough dice for other things you need is common. I've seen them be good, I've seen them have no impact.

Has anyone tried running the IA Enginseer detachment with blob squads? Gaining Canticles isn't terrible, having the usual Enginseer benefits plus sinking them into a blob for Stealth seems pretty good.

I think core for gard should be 2 50 man blobs with platoon command squads in chimerias and a librarius conclave with Tiggy. The rest of your points should be put into russes and IK's. Plama russ I think is the best (no sponson with hull las cannon) and the obligatory wyvern unit.

It has been said a few times, but I'll add my own small spin to it...

I typically run the infantry part of my army as follows:

Platoon Command Squad set up as you see fit, I usually run it bare minimum and move it up behind the conscripts for FRFSRF.
20 man blob of guardsmen with heavy bolter/autocannons (purely anti-infantry support)
30+ man conscript blob with priest or commissar, depending on your preference (Commissars help so much with getting orders past.) In the optimal situation I like 40-50 man conscript blobs.
CCS with Regimental Standard
Astropath or ML2 Primaris Psyker depending on my mood.

Last but not least... I've fallen in love with the Aegis Defense Line, typically setting up the 20 man blob and CCS up behind it. The big thing with the above set up is that it quite simply gives you A LOT of bodies for a fairly low price. It serves well drawing fire away from your more important units, and when buffed with orders/psychic support can put out a surprising amount of damage. As stated above, I typically focus my guard infantry assets on enemy infantry/creatures, so that I can get the most out of their weapons. I leave it to my tanks/flyers to actually fight enemy armor.



One other thing that I have seen that is worth mentioning (though I lack the model count to try it) is to use sentinels instead of infantry. Massed Armored Sentinels, especially when used in the formation (can't remember what it's called...) can put out a substantial amount of damage with just their multilasers. Strength 6 is nothing to sneeze at, and the massed AV12 hulls can be difficult for enemy forces to deal with. As an added bonus, if your army needs a little more AT, you can always equip one squadron with lascannons.


That's one thing that is fun about guard, more than one effective way to play.

Alrighty guys, so it seems that this discussion continued quite a bit.

I'll add in some points:

I've never personally liked Commissars, as I generally prefer using the Ministorum Priests, but then again, I mostly use my infantry to absorb deep strikers.

Interestingly enough, while I had previously loved my Aegis Line with camo netting on my tanks, these days I don't use it as much. It did do its job well but it really limited my maneuverability and as a result I was losing out on objectives.

I played a tournament yesterday at the local club, and didn't do too badly (won two games out of three), although my total score probably wasn't amazing. Here's my list:

Astra Militarum (1750/1850pt.) 1750 tank division with multiple detachments
http://hq-builder.com/shared/156815


@Primary Detachment [ 1 ]

'Emperor's Fist' Armoured Company
Astra Militarum;

Knight Commander Pask (425pt.)
> 1x - Command Leman Russ Punisher (175pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Punisher gatling cannon; Heavy bolter (x3); Camo netting;
> 1x - Leman Russ Vanquisher (180pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Vanquisher battle cannon; Lascannon; Multimelta (x2); Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (185pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Demolisher (185pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Demolisher siege cannon; Heavy bolter; Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (135pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Eradicator (135pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Eradicator nova cannon; Heavy flamer; Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (180pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Vanquisher (180pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Vanquisher battle cannon; Lascannon; Multimelta (x2); Camo netting;
Enginseer (45pt.) Power armour; Laspistol; Power axe; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Servo-arm; Melta bombs;
@Secondary Detachment [ 2 ]

Astra Militarum (Combined arms detachment)
Astra Militarum;

@HQ [ 2 ]

5x - Company Command Squad (60pt.)
> 1x - Company Commander ; Refractor field; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol; Flak armour;
> 4x - Veteran ; Frag grenades; Lasgun; Flak armour;


Ministorum Priest (25pt.) Flak armour; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Rosarius; Laspistol;

@Troops [ 2 ]

Infantry Platoon (220pt.)
# Platoon Command Squad (30pt.)
> 1x - Platoon Commander ; Flak armour; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol;
> 4x - Guardsman ; Flak armour; Frag grenades; Lasgun;
# 2x - Infantry Squad (50pt.)
> 1x - Sergeant ; Flak armour; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol;
> 9x - Guardsman ; Frag grenades; Flak armour; Lasgun;
# Conscripts (90pt.)
> 30x - Conscript ; Frag grenades; Flak armour; Lasgun;


10x - Veterans (125pt.)
> 1x - Veteran Sergeant ; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol; Flak armour;
> 9x - Veteran ; Frag grenades; Lasgun; Flak armour;
> 1x - Chimera (65pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Heavy bolter; Multi-laser;


Oathsworn detachment

@Lords of War [ 1 ]

Knight Paladin (375pt.) Heavy stubber (x2); Rapid-fire battle cannon; Ion shield; Reaper chainsword;

Statistics:
* Models: 79
* Units: 14

@Created by Head Quarters - online roster builder

After I got murdered in my first game, I decided to play a bit differently. First, I decided to play a more aggressive game. I kept my Vanquishers in the backfield while I pushed aggressively with my Knight and other three tanks. I also used my infantry more aggressively too, cause 30 lasguns (the conscripts), with the order First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire, and rapid fire, I can get easily a total of 90 shots. It's still not a super competitive list, but it can run against some things. I won the last two matches, with small objective point margins and larger margins in terms of things killed. I didn't use my usual Aegis Line, for the same reason I said before. I ended up going for mobility instead of a static gunline.

The Knight, in my first match, died before I could use it. This was my own fault to be fair. I could've easily pushed a bit more aggressively. The second match I ended up decimating things with it, but didn't lose it. I was playing Tyranids. The last match, I was playing Chaos, and ended up losing the Knight only after it destroyed lots of things.

Opinions from people on this?

I'm thinking of replacing the Knight with more tanks, but I do like the capabilities of the Knight.

Anyone check out this guy? He's got some pretty solid tactica, with reasoning behind it all. He explains what works well for him, and what doesn't. He also gives battle reports. I've listened to him as I've built up my AM army (too bad I bought 7 russes up front). He is infantry pure, for the most part.

Mordian Glory

 deltaKshatriya wrote:



@Primary Detachment [ 1 ]

'Emperor's Fist' Armoured Company
Astra Militarum;

Knight Commander Pask (425pt.)
> 1x - Command Leman Russ Punisher (175pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Punisher gatling cannon; Heavy bolter (x3); Camo netting;
> 1x - Leman Russ Vanquisher (180pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Vanquisher battle cannon; Lascannon; Multimelta (x2); Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (185pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Demolisher (185pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Demolisher siege cannon; Heavy bolter; Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (135pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Eradicator (135pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Eradicator nova cannon; Heavy flamer; Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (180pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Vanquisher (180pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Vanquisher battle cannon; Lascannon; Multimelta (x2); Camo netting;
Enginseer (45pt.) Power armour; Laspistol; Power axe; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Servo-arm; Melta bombs;

I hate to point out that you can't take Pask in the Emperor's Fist since the FAQ. You can't take special characters in formations unless the formation specifically mentions them as an option according to the new rules. It makes my Armored Company sad too...

Pask isnt a character. He's a unit uograde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tcwalker0311 wrote:
Anyone check out this guy? He's got some pretty solid tactica, with reasoning behind it all. He explains what works well for him, and what doesn't. He also gives battle reports. I've listened to him as I've built up my AM army (too bad I bought 7 russes up front). He is infantry pure, for the most part.

Mordian Glory

Scoping it out,

I find it great to listen to as I slowly balance college life and building an AM infantry pure army. College usually takes over though. Haha.

 tcwalker0311 wrote:
Anyone check out this guy? He's got some pretty solid tactica, with reasoning behind it all. He explains what works well for him, and what doesn't. He also gives battle reports. I've listened to him as I've built up my AM army (too bad I bought 7 russes up front). He is infantry pure, for the most part.

Mordian Glory

I just found his channel and it is great. He has some good things to say about certain vehicles too. Emperor's Fist + Emperor's Blade is a great combo. Those Russes you bought aren't wasted.

ExFideFortis wrote:

 tcwalker0311 wrote:
Anyone check out this guy? He's got some pretty solid tactica, with reasoning behind it all. He explains what works well for him, and what doesn't. He also gives battle reports. I've listened to him as I've built up my AM army (too bad I bought 7 russes up front). He is infantry pure, for the most part.

Mordian Glory

I just found his channel and it is great. He has some good things to say about certain vehicles too. Emperor's Fist + Emperor's Blade is a great combo. Those Russes you bought aren't wasted.

Absolutely true, but it lacks in versatility if your opponent spreads out (especially against Tau and Eldar). The vets might as well be conscripts if you separate them. Haha. Also, if you're drop podded to death, and if you want your tanks to live, your vets will have to come back.

I need to get more Siege variants to make this combo work. I currently run 2 punishers (1 pask, 1 TC), 2 demolishers, 2 battle tanks, and 1 vanquisher. I can mix my aux option with Wyverns, a blade company, a baneblade, or a shield platoon. I just don't have enough versatility in tanks at the moment.

 Jancoran wrote:
Pask isnt a character. He's a unit uograde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tcwalker0311 wrote:
Anyone check out this guy? He's got some pretty solid tactica, with reasoning behind it all. He explains what works well for him, and what doesn't. He also gives battle reports. I've listened to him as I've built up my AM army (too bad I bought 7 russes up front). He is infantry pure, for the most part.

Mordian Glory

Scoping it out,

From the FAQ

"Q: Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in
a specific Formation? For example, The ‘Emperor’s Fist’
Armoured Company Formation mentions you must take a Tank
Commander; can that Tank Commander be upgraded to Knight
Commander Pask?
A: No."

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Pask isnt a character. He's a unit uograde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tcwalker0311 wrote:
Anyone check out this guy? He's got some pretty solid tactica, with reasoning behind it all. He explains what works well for him, and what doesn't. He also gives battle reports. I've listened to him as I've built up my AM army (too bad I bought 7 russes up front). He is infantry pure, for the most part.

Mordian Glory

Scoping it out,

From the FAQ

"Q: Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in
a specific Formation? For example, The ‘Emperor’s Fist’
Armoured Company Formation mentions you must take a Tank
Commander; can that Tank Commander be upgraded to Knight
Commander Pask?
A: No."

Correct, Pask is not a legal upgrade for the formation.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Pask isnt a character. He's a unit uograde.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tcwalker0311 wrote:
Anyone check out this guy? He's got some pretty solid tactica, with reasoning behind it all. He explains what works well for him, and what doesn't. He also gives battle reports. I've listened to him as I've built up my AM army (too bad I bought 7 russes up front). He is infantry pure, for the most part.

Mordian Glory

Scoping it out,

From the FAQ

"Q: Can I upgrade an HQ choice to a Unique character in
a specific Formation? For example, The ‘Emperor’s Fist’
Armoured Company Formation mentions you must take a Tank
Commander; can that Tank Commander be upgraded to Knight
Commander Pask?
A: No."

thats bizarre.

It affects all formations though, so you also shouldn't see chapter masters in a battle company, for example. Like I said though, it makes me sad because I liked running Pask in the Emperor's Fist.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
It affects all formations though, so you also shouldn't see chapter masters in a battle company, for example. Like I said though, it makes me sad because I liked running Pask in the Emperor's Fist.

yeah but its bizarre becasue he should just be an upgrade, like a heavy Bolter. Doesn't make sense to me. i get why they IN GENERAL rule that way. Totally makes sense. But Pask? That one is a head scratcher. Oh well. I dont use Leman Russ's much, as I've said so it doesnt affect ME, but I feel for those using the Formation.

That is one of the more stupid things I've seen, cause it really guts the formation. Punisher Pask is what adds the punch to the formation.

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
That is one of the more stupid things I've seen, cause it really guts the formation. Punisher Pask is what adds the punch to the formation.

That, and he's also pictured in the Mont'Ka book as a model in the formation. Granted, this was all before FAQ, but still...

What do you mean fall apart when infantry get to close?

How many heavy flamers are you toting on your tanks?

How is your army utilizing mobility?

How are you using blocker units?

I carry 6 free heavy flamers on my tanks in a 1000 point list plus a hellhound spewing nape

this is a great link for you:
http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2010/01/you-brought-what.html

When it boils down to whether to choose a Priest or a Commissar for your big blobs, the answer is pretty simple in my opinion.

Neither. A barebones BP/CCW Inquisitor costs exactly the same, is the hardest to kill, and with LD10 gives you a 90% chance of passing orders, potentially saving you the trouble of paying for a vox network.

As far as the Mont'ka formations go, I feel the strongest by far is the Artillery Company. Used it at a semi-competitive level tournament recently and won 2 games and had a draw on the last one. I ran it as Techpriest, 2 Basilisks, Manticore, CCS in Chimera with Volkov's Cane. I use it in conjunction with an Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon (50 guys, 5 missile launchers, 3 vox casters) and so far I think its pretty effective. Because of Volkov's Cane you're basically guaranteed ignores cover on your Manticore and a Basilisk every turn, with the option to pass ignores cover/tank hunter/monster hunter onto your blob instead, and a huge vox caster twinlink threat range. Most of the time I've found that I'm targeting vehicles with the artillery, because taking multiple S10/S9 ordnance hits that ignore cover is really going to ruin someone's day. The Tech Priest is more useful than you'd think purely because of the ability to confer POTMS, letting you move one of your artillery pieces and fire directly at someone despite being ordnance.

The Emperor's Shield platoon I find useful because at times being able to move and shoot your heavy weapons is invaluable, as is Move Through Cover when you're constantly adjusting the shape of your blob to avoid getting charged and to spread out your troops in ruins and cover. I think that Armoured Sentinels are very underrated, especially if taken bog standard with a multi-laser. They're decent at scraping off an extra hull point from a light vehicle here and there, harassing backfield heavy weapons teams i.e Devastators and Lootas, making it inconvenient to charge your blobs by blocking the way, and in general just being a fire magnet. Also, few things are more priceless than locking a group of Scarab Terminators into a melee they can't escape from with a 40 point walker, I had that happen once.

The Cadian Battle Group is sadly useless. The killer is the fact that you need to take 170 Guardsmen or 5 Leman Russes at least to run it. That many Guardsmen is just too cumbersome, and you really start seeing diminishing returns in investing in Russes after about the fourth one.

My problem with Russes right now, why I've basically abandoned them is that in my opinion, there's only 1 outstanding variant and that's the Pask Executioner with PC sponsons with a Executioner squadron buddy. It costs a lot, but its a lot of reliable firepower that's flexible against infantry and MC's. If I ever run mech again, I'll take Russes because I make a wall of AV14 to protect the Chimeras and use 4-6 vehicles in this fashion in a block. The Ordnance Russes are just awful without lumbering behemoth, one BS3 pie plate isn't that great. Eradicator, Exterminator and Vanquisher are just meh, none of them are reliable at their intended roles, but if I need to squeeze in an extra Russ to pull off the AV14 wall I take one begrudginly. The Punisher sucks without Pask and even with Pask 24'' range is awful as you really don't want the ideal targets within that range.

glad to hear you did well. I also encourage people to use that artillery Formation. it's just excellent.

 tcwalker0311 wrote:
Anyone check out this guy? He's got some pretty solid tactica, with reasoning behind it all. He explains what works well for him, and what doesn't. He also gives battle reports. I've listened to him as I've built up my AM army (too bad I bought 7 russes up front). He is infantry pure, for the most part.

Mordian Glory

Mordian Glory IS fatboynoslim....