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Hi all,

So after a little more than 10 years away from the tables, I'm seriously considering playing again! I have no army left at this point as I scattered it a while ago, and I am considering a few options with main contenders being AdMech and Chaos Daemons.

The thing is, I don't want to invest in an army to find out six months later it's been severely downgraded. I know 8E is coming, I know GW's tendency to take drastic decisions, and I'm a little scared... I've heard here and there that rules don't matter, codices do; what's the informed opinion around here? Would you go for it anyway or would you wait until June (?) to see what happens?

 The Cyclop Owl wrote:

The thing is, I don't want to invest in an army to find out six months later it's been severely downgraded

I would recommend a different game, then.

The one constant with 40K is that your army may be hit with the nerf bat (either directly or through other armies leapfrogging ahead) with no notice.

I understand that logic. Have mostly sat out 7th edition due to dissatisfaction with the rules.

If it makes it any easier - one of the best lists for 6th and 7th edition is a Chaos Daemons list called Flying Circus. Take Fateweaver, Be'Lakor and several daemon princes along with some troops.

Unless there's a serious nerf for Fateweaver, I would expect this list to stay competitive in 8th edition.

Do you have any interest in fantasy? One nice thing about Chaos Daemons is that the models are mostly the same as in Age of Sigmar. If for some reason you didn't want to play Daemons in 8th you could still probably play them in AoS.

There's also a lot of potential for allying different IoM factions with each other currently, and there's a decent chance they'll all be one big faction next edition, so as long as you don't collect a ton of Adeptus Mechanicus really fast you could proibably ally in another Imperial army to make up for whatever potential deficiencies AdMech has in the next edition.

I'm also getting back in after about ten years of absence and I'm kind of waiting to see what happens. I'm more cautious due to changing sculpts and books than worrying about effectiveness of different units. I've been buying ork stuff, because I figure orks come in all different sizes and their vehicles look wildly different so unless they change things drastically it won't be a big deal. I'm also going to start collecting Tyranids as it makes sense (to me at least) that there would be some variety in a constantly mutating and adapting race of bug monsters. I'm holding off on collecting any more Guard or CSM as I'm hoping they'll come out with new and better models.

More than the miniatures, I don't want to buy hundreds of dollars in books and then see them be invalidated, especially since all my favorite armies seem to have pretty old codexes.

I would read a bunch of fluff. Maybe the 1d4 chan tactica pages for any armies you are interested in. Watch some batreps. Wait for 8th.

I would be surprised if 8th wasn't out by November. But you can build a lot of ideas just watching and waiting. If you have the Painting and Modeling itch it's a good bet to get 2 units of basic troops and a generic HQ at the very least. No reason those wont be at least mildly viable regardless of changes from one edition to the next.

8E might not even drop this year. I would not get the rules if your that worried. Start the painting of your army and the stuff you want and then when the newer rules hit you should be all set assuming the rule gods favor the units you have chosen.

I do love how people have been saying 8th Ed coming soon.. for the past few years nows

Do you have any interest in fantasy? One nice thing about Chaos Daemons is that the models are mostly the same as in Age of Sigmar. If for some reason you didn't want to play Daemons in 8th you could still probably play them in AoS.

I have no interest in AoS, and I've never played Fantasy before, but that consideration did cross my mind.

There's also a lot of potential for allying different IoM factions with each other currently, and there's a decent chance they'll all be one big faction next edition, so as long as you don't collect a ton of Adeptus Mechanicus really fast you could proibably ally in another Imperial army to make up for whatever potential deficiencies AdMech has in the next edition.

Similarly, I thought about it. Plus, knights. I have to admit I'm quite smitten by both the figs and their capacities...

I would read a bunch of fluff. Maybe the 1d4 chan tactica pages for any armies you are interested in. Watch some batreps. Wait for 8th.

Yeah this is what I've been doing. The problem is that, since I haven't picked an army yet, I have no codices, meaning it's sometimes a little tricky to make sense of what's happening on the field. But it is a good strategy, and I'm learning quite a few tips and tricks without even playing.
I've mostly been watching Miniwar Gaming, Tabletop Tactics and Winter SEO though, the latter being seemingly the only one with an insight into competitive meta. Any advice on that?

I do love how people have been saying 8th Ed coming soon.. for the past few years nows

I don't know what you're referring to as I wasn't around and I obviously can't pretend my opinion is informed on whether or not 8E is arriving, but from my perspective how would you react to the omnipresent rumors?

GodDamUser wrote:
I do love how people have been saying 8th Ed coming soon.. for the past few years nows

We have persons more reliable than WD saying it's coming. Pretending it's not coming is like behaving like an ostrich.

If you're stuck on playing competitively I have no advice for you. If you enjoy casual games and the painting and modeling side of the hobby than I have tons of advice mainly just being to buy and build/paint up the models you enjoy and want to field.
I just got back in after 2 years of not playing or painting anything and only played 6th for like 6 months after a 3 year hiatus before that and can honestly say I still have a ton of fun playing as well as being able to hobby again is truly soothing and meditative to me! I used to play deathwing so I have a ton of terminators and I know they are terrible now but being as I play death guard and have 30 something terminators, I am running a terminator annihilation force formation in my army and they are super fun even if I am the literal worst at making terminator saves! Also I run 70-100 zombies in my average lists and though they are pretty terrible, they are quite possibly the most fun oil pits ever!
Basically I'm just saying that if you wanna get back in and play, than DO IT. If you want to play competitively than wait for 8th and then jump in, or just play casually til 8th comes out and then jump into the competitive meta. Also, most codexes are available in PDF form online(except the newest book) so just download them and use them off th interwebs for now until either a new book or 8th comes out.

It's probably going to be Warhammer 40k AGE OF PRIMARCHS, HURR!!! With that likelihood in mind, any space marines faction is likely to be safe.

CplPunishment wrote:
...any space marines faction is likely to be safe.

I'd add Imperial Knights armies to that as well, but to me, running an army purely comprised of Knights isn't that exciting haha. Also - as Dakka Flakka Flame said - there is a lot of value in allying an army that falls under the Forces of the Imperium umbrella. I'm consistently 'proxying' my models as units from different Space Marine Chapters in order to take advantage of different Chapter Tactics and strategies.

With all that said: If you're buying into this hobby based on whether or not the army that you choose to collect will be competitive in however many months or years time, then maybe you need to rethink why you're joining this hobby. I for one starting by collecting Black Templars with no understanding of list building, how to use Black Templars on the Tabletop, or the fact that they are - relatively speaking - a not very competitive Chapter to use. I starting collecting Black Templars because I wanted to play the 40K Tabletop game and I love Black Templars. In short: If playing the game with an army you love isn't enough motivation to collect and play that army, then you may want to seriously think why you want to play the game.

Everything I've heard (from Internet rumour sources, GW staff, etc.) (I'm being secondhand, please don't quote me as a primary source with access to important GW staff) is that 8e is going to be a relatively minor edition change through which all the Codexes will remain the same rather than a full-on reboot the way AoS was. So you don't need to panic about the game exploding anytime soon.

If you want to buy stuff that isn't going to be dramatically nerfed by the edition change Daemons and the 40k Mechanicum aren't that safe; when edition changes happen core rule elements tend to flip in power/effectiveness (e.g. 4th->5th transports came back in a big way, but 5th->6th they almost disappeared if they weren't Wave Serpents). Daemons are quite heavily reliant on certain abuseable elements of the Psyker/MC core rules, if those take a hit what's useful and not useful in their book could be completely changed overnight. The issue with the Mechanicum is simply that it's a small book, so you don't have that much space to dodge if a rules change hits an element of your army.

Older/larger/more central books (Space Marines, Eldar, Guard, CSM...) are more resilient when edition changes come around simply because they're less reliant on a small set of unit types; if the MC type takes a hit it's going to have a drastic effect on the power level of the entire Daemons or Tyranid books, if the Psyker rules take a hit the GK are going to be utterly squished, but if the Bike type takes a hit the Eldar/Marines can shrug and transition into a different build within their Codex that doesn't rely on them as much.

So if you want to start now instead of waiting for 8th you're going to want an army with a variety of units/unit types that isn't reliant on a lynchpin element of the core rulebook remaining the same to function. Marines/CSM, Eldar, and to a lesser extend Tau and Necrons are probably the safest places to go right now.

(Alternately if you have an immense budget and/or a fondness for Space Marines being cool instead of smackable mary-sues you could go for a 30k list, because Forge World has a tendency to correct for/compensate for core rules changes to preserve both external and internal balance more frequently and more effectively than GW's Codex teams do.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IllumiNini wrote:
...With all that said: If you're buying into this hobby based on whether or not the army that you choose to collect will be competitive in however many months or years time, then maybe you need to rethink why you're joining this hobby...

Addendum: I will back up this consideration, however. Unless you're dealing with a tournament scene or a highly competitive FLGS on a regular basis the absolute power level of your Codex means very little; most playgroups will be willing and able to adapt to a player with a weaker army.

And "but it's powerful!" should never be an excuse to buy miniatures you don't like. You're the one who has to see them on your shelf, spend time painting them, work through the Codex figuring out how the army works, etc.; if you don't like the army fluffwise, art-wise, thematically, etc. you're going to be battering through endless tedious chores just to win games, if you do then it's going to be easier to learn, adapt, commit to figuring out how to play a more difficult force, etc.

In short: It's easier to compensate for a weak Codex than one that you don't like building/painting/looking at/living with.

Power levels change. Don't buy based on power level. Buy based on aesthetics and playstyle. You'll be much happier with your army.

That is a very good point.
With all of the Eldar factions in the recent campaign book, they'll all be in the same mega-codex when 8th hits. Isn't that what happened with AoS hit?

GodDamUser wrote:
I do love how people have been saying 8th Ed coming soon.. for the past few years nows

That happened with Fantasy. 31 years after it was released, some "rumour" site posted it was the 30th anniversary and 9th ed was due out.

So people who are bad at math ran with it.

At least this time around they knew how to add up to 30 even if the edition is out or not.


As to the OP: if you like Chaos Daemons and want to play them, maybe start with one of the $100 getting started boxes? It isn't a huge outlay and they are a great discounted starter. Just dip your toe in. Try to find a local friend who can start you back into the hobby. You can also try AoS this way so it is like a 2 for 1.

Cheers

To bring a little more detail to my approach: I'm obviously not playing just to get into the competitive scene. If that was the case, I would stick with IRL sports or highly-fluid-high-reward games like Hearthstone.
That being said, there are several armies I'm attracted to, daemons, Grey Knights, AdMech, Thousand Sons and their power is a factor in my choice, quite simply because even hough I do love painting (I'm a professional visual artist), I also intend to play a lot and I don't want to feel restricted when it comes to bringing an army to a tournament if I want to (pretty much the reason why I won't buy into Thousand Sons). I take an investment approach to the game, because the amounts of money required for the hobby are high enough that I do have to take it into account.

During my first tabletop period, I bought too many armies or figurines that I loved only to be felt cheated when they were not supported anymore, or were highly inefficient in the context of their army. And this is why I now pay a lot more attention to the power of armies and units before I invest my money and my painting time in them.

But if I wanted to just have a powerful army, I'd go Eldar, which I will not because I have absolutely no affinity to their minis.

If you want to buy stuff that isn't going to be dramatically nerfed by the edition change Daemons and the 40k Mechanicum aren't that safe; when edition changes happen core rule elements tend to flip in power/effectiveness (e.g. 4th->5th transports came back in a big way, but 5th->6th they almost disappeared if they weren't Wave Serpents). Daemons are quite heavily reliant on certain abuseable elements of the Psyker/MC core rules, if those take a hit what's useful and not useful in their book could be completely changed overnight. The issue with the Mechanicum is simply that it's a small book, so you don't have that much space to dodge if a rules change hits an element of your army.

Older/larger/more central books (Space Marines, Eldar, Guard, CSM...) are more resilient when edition changes come around simply because they're less reliant on a small set of unit types; if the MC type takes a hit it's going to have a drastic effect on the power level of the entire Daemons or Tyranid books, if the Psyker rules take a hit the GK are going to be utterly squished, but if the Bike type takes a hit the Eldar/Marines can shrug and transition into a different build within their Codex that doesn't rely on them as much.

This is exactly what I'm scared about. Of the three armies I'm most attracted to (GN, daemons & AdMech), two rely heavily on psykers and one relies heavily on shooting. If any of those mechanics is being nerfed, my entire army could potentially go down and I know I'd get a huge frustration out of it, which I prefer to avoid.


There's obviously no consensus here, but I think I'll wait until 8E is out and just study the game in the meantime. Worst case I'll just buy a skitarii/tzeentch starter set if I really really feel the urge to paint.

I have not played since the earliest of 4th edition came out. Even if I wait for 8th edition I fear that so many rules and terminologies will make the game almost unrecognizable.

We have played about a dozen 2nd edition games this year and eventually I will want to try the newer stuff.

Just wish my Jes Goodwin designed WaveSerpents (6 of them) could be used somehow in 3rd +

How I miss an organic elder look instead of the high tech look that they went with. NOT one of the elder vehicles (even as cool as they are) look like they were 'grown' or shaped in an organic way. More like they were bolted together on some Mech world ....a shame

 The Cyclop Owl wrote:
During my first tabletop period, I bought too many armies or figurines that I loved only to be felt cheated when they were not supported anymore, or were highly inefficient in the context of their army.

That is 40k in a nutshell. There are plenty of tabletop games out there with non-gak rules, play those for a good game and treat GW minis like collectable minis.

CplPunishment wrote:
It's probably going to be Warhammer 40k AGE OF PRIMARCHS, HURR!!! With that likelihood in mind, any space marines faction is likely to be safe.

...And They Shall Know No Unfavourable Rules Changes.

tneva82 wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
I do love how people have been saying 8th Ed coming soon.. for the past few years nows

We have persons more reliable than WD saying it's coming. Pretending it's not coming is like behaving like an ostrich.

Such as who? The only place I see people saying it's coming soon is random people on Dakka in general or tactics, and no one can provide any sources upon questioning. So hopefully you can.

I say start collecting what you like the look/sound off..

If it turns out to be noncompetitive latters, then you still have a fun army to play, and at worst you drop a little bit of money and buy the FoM from eBay

I can't imagine going to a 40k forum and spending time actively trying to convince people not to play, while I also don't play. I don't get it.

Join in the fun of Kill Team until 8th decides to present itself.

Make your priority something else than powerlevel of the army.

Or make a safe bet and play Eldar, Space Marines or Tau. They are unlikely to start sucking (possible, but unlikely).

 The Cyclop Owl wrote:
So after a little more than 10 years away from the tables, I'm seriously considering playing again!

Would you go for it anyway or would you wait until June (?) to see what happens?

You've waited 10 years, you can wait another few months to see what 40k 8E is like. If you restart, better to restart without 7E to confuse things.

 troa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
I do love how people have been saying 8th Ed coming soon.. for the past few years nows

We have persons more reliable than WD saying it's coming. Pretending it's not coming is like behaving like an ostrich.

Such as who? The only place I see people saying it's coming soon is random people on Dakka in general or tactics, and no one can provide any sources upon questioning. So hopefully you can.

Yeah, all I've seen is a bunch of "it's totally coming out in June, guyz!!!"

Downside of 40K... regardless of the rule set edition, there will always be a new codex or supplement that will make one army better than the one that used to be the best.

Back when I got into this hobby (June/July 2015), the new Dark Angels codex had just dropped. And, the Dark Angels were one of the top armies in the game. Now, less than two years later, very, very few people even play Dark Angels anymore.

New codices for Tau, supplements for SM, and more have caused the DA to be pushed to the back burner.

So, regardless of the rule set edition, armies will constantly be in flux. Honestly, my $0.02... pick an army you like (whether it be the models, the fluff, or just some good memories) and start collecting. Just enjoy playing.

If you want to play competitively (even though there are no competitive rules from GW for 40K), then just be ready to invest in multiple armies over the months/years regardless of the rule set edition.

SG

While the individual armies change in power, the ruleset is something you're stuck with for years. If you think that Challenges are stupid, that Closest First is stupid ticky-tack gak, that cross-references to cross-references in the rules are stupid, then there's not much you can do about that if you're not pushing for a lot of House Rules to fix things. WFB 8E broke Fantasy for us, far more than the 7E army imbalances did. If 40k 8E is gak, then he shouldn't play it.

 The Cyclop Owl wrote:

During my first tabletop period, I bought too many armies or figurines that I loved only to be felt cheated when they were not supported anymore, or were highly inefficient in the context of their army. And this is why I now pay a lot more attention to the power of armies and units before I invest my money and my painting time in them.

Was that in 40K? I ask only because I think a lot of the older models have remained usable throughout the ages. 40K seems to be pretty good at that. Usually the models that get phased out are weird conversions and wargear combinations that you sorta knew weren't going to last.