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2017/07/16 23:38:21
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Traceoftoxin wrote: One of the best melee options is Company Veteran spam. Minimum squads are 2 bodies, 1 of which is a 3A sgt. Easy to get elite slots.
Wouldn't honor guard fill this role better? 1 extra wound, 2+ save, relic blades, though I guess a lot of weapons invalidate the usefulness of 2 wounds
Honor Guard are way better defensively, only 12.5 pts a wound with a 2+ is great. But only 2A each hurts. Definitely a strong choice, and better against armored targets, but, weight of attacks is a very real thing.
If you are playing with 2xchainswords = +2 attacks, you can have 9 attacks for 32 pts per pair. It's not orks, but, it's some of the most chop per point we can get.
Alternatively, you can take chainsword+stormbolter, and get 8 shots and 7 attacks per pair for only a smidgen more. 40 shots and 35 attacks on the charge is pretty solid for less than 200 pts.
2017/07/19 00:19:03
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
They can deepstrike with 2 meltas or 2 plasma [EDIT: No they can't], but as stated, VV get +1A, +1LD, and better weapon options for 2 more points a head.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 03:19:40
2017/07/19 01:42:51
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
GreatGranpapy wrote: Ok but are they not-bad enough that using them isn't detrimental? I've got a box of them and would rather see them get some use than not. Would probably do the triple plasma pistol load-out.
Every tool has its use, some tools are just better at their job than others. Assault marines are probably better at delivering some special weapons where you need them, when you need them. In this capacity, they're not bad at all. Just seems contrary to what you would think they're for. [Edit: They can't take Melta/Plasma, so they're really not useful for much]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 03:20:12
2017/07/19 01:59:08
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
They can deepstrike with 2 meltas or 2 plasma, but as stated, VV get +1A, +1LD, and better weapon options for 2 more points a head.
They can only take more than flamers and plasma pistols if you're a blood angel
Nah, the FAQ gave all SM [Edit: Nope, you're right, just BA] AM access to meltas and plasma.
Page 89 – Wargear
Add the following before the final paragraph:
‘Models in Assault Squads that have the option for a
flamer may take a meltagun or plasma gun instead
(replacing their bolt pistol and chainsword).’
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/19 03:20:40
2017/07/19 03:19:08
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
They can deepstrike with 2 meltas or 2 plasma, but as stated, VV get +1A, +1LD, and better weapon options for 2 more points a head.
They can only take more than flamers and plasma pistols if you're a blood angel
Nah, the FAQ gave all SMAM access to meltas and plasma.
Page 89 – Wargear
Add the following before the final paragraph:
‘Models in Assault Squads that have the option for a
flamer may take a meltagun or plasma gun instead
(replacing their bolt pistol and chainsword).’
Page 89 is the blood angels wargear section, it is NOT for all SM chapters
Well feth me, I'm dumb. Thanks.
[Edit] That being clarified, no, I don't think there's any real use for assault marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/19 03:21:52
2017/08/13 00:47:48
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Tried adding a BT chapter master with storm of fire and the BT helm last night. Makes a good mini-guilleman. Having PF/SS (Would take TH but model is PF) and being on a bike means he can move quickly to cover any area within his fire support bubble, and can deal with most threats.
Played a ven dread, wasn't impressed. Think you need 2+, and they need to be gundreads or melee dreads. Gundreads seem mostly overshadowed by preds, though there are advantages to dreads (No diminishing stats, chapter tactics, etc). Pairs of white scars contemptors could be pretty scary, if you have enough target saturation to keep them safe.
10x Van Vets with JP and 1x relic blade have been pretty solid. Been keeping them out of LOS and using them as a counter assault unit. They're not particularly expensive, and throw out a pretty solid amount of attacks, especially when supported by a JP captain.
LRC puts out a lot of shooting, is durable as hell, but becomes an expensive mobile wall once it gets charged. Not sold on it, but has potential.
Had 2x5 company vets in the aforementioned LRC, with the captain and a chaplain. The ability to eat wounds for the chars helps with snipers, they have 4 attacks (Either from 2 chainswords or the bolt pistol shot, depending on kit) for 16 ppm, which is pretty efficient for SM. Considered giving a bunch storm bolters, 3A each and 4 shots at 12" for 18ppm seems pretty fair.
Thoughts right now on a possible 2k list;
Captain on bike, PF, SS (Storm of Fire, Chapter Master, Black Templar helm relic)
Captain with JP, TH, SS Emperor's Champion
Battalion means I have 12 CP to start, 3 for the chapter master, and I can spend 1 CP to throw the Shield Eternal or Armor Indom on the JP captain. Points are tight for upgrades, I stripped everything off the melee crusader squad to fit all the elites and HKM on all my fire support vehicles. I could cut the 6x HKM and get 36 pts, which would let me upgrade the company vet sgts to thunderhammers, maybe throw a flamer in the crusader squad or some storm bolters in the vets?
Thoughts?
2017/08/13 15:05:32
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Waaaghpower wrote: Minor question: Why aren't you putting a Thunder Hammer on your Chapter Master? You have one on the Captain - If nothing else, why not swap them out for each other, so the Captain is better armed?
Model has pfatm, and with CM sitting back to babysit, finding the 4 pts for TH is not a major concern.
2017/08/18 19:14:50
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
quick question, on a whirlwind, would you take the castellan or vengeance launcher?
Cheers
Been trying vengeance. Considering swapping to the hyperios. Seems like a decent weapon, not as powerful as the asscan razorback, but much more flexible. Pretty decent for picking on artillery units, hiding vehicles, etc.
2017/08/21 17:54:16
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What do people think of Command Squads with Storm Bolters and Chainswords? 18 points a pop gets you three attacks and four shots at 12". They outshoot Sternguard against anything with 4+ or worse armour and do the same damage to MEQ (but are 2 PPM more expensive than Sternguard) and get as many attacks as Vanguard Veterans. They seem like one of the better anti-horde choices in the book, particularly when in range of various auras.
They're not 2ppm than sternguard. Both are 18 with their wargear.
Special issue boltgun and storm bolters do equal damage to 3+ saves, SIB does better vs 2+, and SB do better against 4+ or worse.
Vets with SB and chainsword are one of our most cost efficient horde clearing unit, though they're not very durable for their cost. Aggressors and asscan razorbacks are both better in shooting, though the vets get the 3 attacks each (4 on the sgt) in combat.
Sternguard with bolters are decent at putting some wounds on higher T if you use the strategem. 20 shots averages about 4.5 wounds vs T7 3+.
I brought them up a few pages back. I think they are viable. You could easily run 5 squads of 2 in a rhino, gives you extra attacks from all the sgts you get, and flexibility in movement. Though you would give up a lot more KP. Vets are a really solid unit in general with their extreme flexibility. The ability to eat wounds for chars is also fantastic.
2017/08/21 23:08:12
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What do people think of Command Squads with Storm Bolters and Chainswords? 18 points a pop gets you three attacks and four shots at 12". They outshoot Sternguard against anything with 4+ or worse armour and do the same damage to MEQ (but are 2 PPM more expensive than Sternguard) and get as many attacks as Vanguard Veterans. They seem like one of the better anti-horde choices in the book, particularly when in range of various auras.
The issue for me is Vanguard will already have the natural mobility and the threat range for Sternguard is greater.
You're trying to accomplish both with one unit and it doesn't work out too well because of that limited mobility.
Unless you give them JP, VV and CV are almost identical. If you give the VVJP, you can give the CVSB, and that quadrouples their shooting output compared to the VV while retaining the same melee damage. You can put them in a razorback, which is easily top 3 units in the codex atm, and use them for horde control. Considering hordes are one of our bigger weaknesses and the strongest builds atm, I think it's a viable build. Either way, you give up marginal mobility for the ability to embark in razorbacks, which you should be taking anyways.
2017/08/27 15:54:40
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Power Sword
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Melta
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Power Sword
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Melta
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Multi Melta
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Plasma
Crusader Squad -Initiates x2
-Initiate w/ Multi Melta
-Initiate w/ Melta
-Sword Brother w/ Power Sword Combi Plasma
With this set up I would end up with 4 initiates 2 Meltas 1 Multi Melta 1 Power Sword and 2 Sword Brothers with a Power Sword 1 with Combi Melta and 1 with Combi Plasma inside of reach LRC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also side question. I noticed that Tac squads don't actually come with heavy weapon components. Do people just insert devestators into Tac/crusader squads?
I've been running plasma, plas can, and combi plas in asscan razorbacks to good effect. Though I'm leaning towards changing the plas can out for a heavy bolter, it's a very cost efficient gun. I think its better than standard PC d3 shots, but overcharging is extremely strong with rerolls so not sure yet. Power swords are a good investment on sgts for their cost.
2017/09/26 15:25:41
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.
ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.
Brigade
HQ Captain on bike - PF, SS (Becomes chap master. Storm of fire trait. BT helm relic. Currently has PF because painted, and no points to go to TH)
Captain with JP - TH, SS Emperor's Champion (Goes in Rhino)
Elites
Company Vet x2 - Power sword on sgt (Goes in Rhino)
Company Vet x2 - Power sword on sgt (Goes in Rhino)
Cenobyte servitors x3 (6 pt elite choice FTW)
Fast
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter
Experience so far is that having the 9" aura with storm of fire makes the bike Chap Master a solid mini-guilleman. I lose 3" and 3 free CP, but I save enough points to go brigade, so I think I end up with a similar number of CP in game. It's been a game changer every time.
Predators and the TH/SS jump captain have been MVPs, every game. The 3 flat damage is so amazing and consistent. Occasionally the Lascannons will erase something or chip armor, but the pred autocannon almost always puts 3-6 wounds on whatever it shoots at.
Asscanbacks are amazing. With the rerolls and storm of fire they just pour out so much hate. Their overwatch is potent too.
HKM are a little pricey but the alpha potential they give you is something you can't really afford to give up. I can't think of a better place for the 36 points, unless there was a bigger overall shifting of the list.
Things I'm not sold on
1) EC vs LT
Not wed to EC and melee squad in Rhino, could swap him out for a primaris LT, though I need to keep the 2x2 vets as they are the cheapest elite choice (aside from the unique cenobyte servitors). They've worked well as a repelling force vs assault armies. Scouts absorb initial charge, EC and a rhino of marines counter charge in my turn and finish off whatever shooting leaves standing. EC is dirt cheap for the melee power he has, but an LT would up my firepower a lot. I could shift some points and do LT with JP and a PF or something, maybe.
2) Plasma squads
Experience has shown plasma squads do very well within range of rerolls. The overcharge with 4+d3 shots can help finish off vehicles or pick up characters in my lines very reliably. Could swap cannon to a heavy bolter, it is statistically very similar for half the cost unless the cannon overcharges. Since I generally am using them when overcharging, seems like I should keep it all plasma to be specialized in that role. Other option is to remove all their weapons, which would save me 49 pts per squad, so 147 for my list. I could get another razorback with that, though the overcharged plasma fills a high S, multi-damage role the assault cannons do not.
3) Whirlwind
The whirlwind is pretty consistent. It's damage output is always less than a pred, but it gives me a tool to fight out of LOS targets. It isn't likely to win a fight against IG artillery, but it can do some damage if it goes first or they whiff. Have considered swapping to a hyperios for anti-air and increased S. For the cost I don't have a lot of other heavy slot choices that I'm in love with. I could take a Hunter, but I'm not a fan of single-shot weapon systems.
Overall
I'm pretty happy with how the army has been playing, just looking for inputs on fine-tuning it.
2017/09/26 15:39:20
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
stratigo wrote: You want a lieutenant. And not a primeris one. With a gunline rerolling those 1s to wound is a game maker.
Also, yeah, your army is awful for BTs, and salamanders would be much better . But, is what it is.
Why standard over Primaris? Yes I can put him in a vehicle, but then I get no aura. Primaris gives me 5 wounds at 14 ppw, versus 4 wounds at 15ppw. Considering the number one threat to my buff characters are snipers (And those that ignore invulns, to boot), is there a pro to the standard LT I'm missing?
Pros for BT - Relic helm which is probably the strongest relic, IMO. Access to cenobyte servitors - critical for getting a brigade. BT denial strategem, allows a more likely denial of one power per turn. I never fail a short range charge, haha.
Cons - I don't get Girlyman. I don't get RG -1 to hit. I don't get 1 reroll per infantry squad.
Girlyman is huge, mostly because he's one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game. I think the RG/Sally loss is offset by the BT buffs, considering my vehicles would get no use from their CT, and I gain a large reroll bubble that does affect vehicles.
2017/09/26 16:04:28
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Traceoftoxin wrote: Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.
ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.
Brigade
/snip.
Wow, a brigade. Cool.
Couple of thoughts:
Throw those scouts away and replace with intercessors. Intercessors, unlike bolter scouts, are good. More wounds, more attacks, better armour, better (though fewer) guns.
You have two predators and a whirlwind. Take 3 predators instead, sit your general near them with storm of fire, and activate the kill shot stratagem. Many things will die. I realise that you need a lot of spare points to do this, so if it's not possible then never mind. Or drop a razorback to do it, maybe swapping the guys inside for more intercessors. Did I mention that I like intercessors?
You're (inevitably) a bit character-heavy. Personally I'd ditch one of your captains and get a lieutenant, as has already been suggested. Sit him with your captain and predators for even more fun times.
Thanks for the input. Not trying to argue, just doing a back and forth.
Scouts are there solely to deny first turn assault via deepstrike. Something intercessors cannot do effectively without forcing me back into a corner and giving up the ability to maneuver. Critical in games now because of heavy LOS blocking terrain. I'd get 1 intercessor for every 2 scouts. I don't think 20 scouts or 10 intercessors firepower is going to really do much damage to anything. Neither is going to live to the end of the game if they're being used as bubble wrap. Intercessors are like 10% more wounds/attacks/shots per point, since you get 2 scouts per intercessor, though the armor is notable. They just lack the footprint I need/want for stopping heavy assault style units.
I've considered the 3rd predator, though not sure where I'd find 80 pts. Kill shot is amazing, and with a brigade I can definitely afford to use it a lot - if I don't lose a predator. I think this is a legit suggestion, but I'm not sure I can adjust the list adequately to fit it, or if it'll actually play out well. I rarely keep my predators within 6" of each other, generally they're each on the opposite side of 9" of my chapter master for better LOS coverage.
3 characters is character heavy? I have 279 pts in my HQ - less than girlyman alone. Why replace the captain over the EC? I'm definitely leaning towards an LT, but it seems like the EC would be the more obvious choice to replace. The EC is better vs chars than TH/SS, but TH/SS decimates walkers, heavy infantry and is perfectly adequate vs chars. He's also very mobile. EC seems very situational, and the LT would be a strong army-wide buff.
A slightly silly way to effectively take one less HQ is the rhino primaris. In a razorback army you could potentially take one of them as an HQ, rather than taking a razorback for one of your troops. In effect you get a free HQ - though at the obvious cost of the twin AC on the razorback. The RP's buffs and orbital bombardment are pretty fun though.
The primaris adds almost nothing to this list, I think. It costs a ton, gives a single unit a very minor buff (3+ reroll to hit is already nearly 90% success) or barely heals a tank. The orbital bombardment might be decent against a vehicle. The plasma guns are not particularly useful when I can't risk overcharging without losing the whole tank.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/26 16:08:02
2017/09/26 16:24:13
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
stratigo wrote: You want a lieutenant. And not a primeris one. With a gunline rerolling those 1s to wound is a game maker.
Also, yeah, your army is awful for BTs, and salamanders would be much better . But, is what it is.
Why standard over Primaris? Yes I can put him in a vehicle, but then I get no aura. Primaris gives me 5 wounds at 14 ppw, versus 4 wounds at 15ppw. Considering the number one threat to my buff characters are snipers (And those that ignore invulns, to boot), is there a pro to the standard LT I'm missing?
Pros for BT - Relic helm which is probably the strongest relic, IMO. Access to cenobyte servitors - critical for getting a brigade. BT denial strategem, allows a more likely denial of one power per turn. I never fail a short range charge, haha.
Cons - I don't get Girlyman. I don't get RG -1 to hit. I don't get 1 reroll per infantry squad.
Girlyman is huge, mostly because he's one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game. I think the RG/Sally loss is offset by the BT buffs, considering my vehicles would get no use from their CT, and I gain a large reroll bubble that does affect vehicles.
the normal lieutenant is significantly cheaper. Give him chainswords and nothing else and he is his base 60. The primeris lieutenant has to buy gak. Also deploying in a vehicle is useful for limiting drops, and your entire army is mobile.
I think the ultramarine relic, the sanctic halo, is probably the best. I've never had an issue keeping guys within 6 of calgar, but you do has more units than my calgar list usually runs (a strictly casual list verse my G man list).
Salymanders would drastically increase the efficiency of your MSU plasma troops. It's mini guilliman for free. It's the best chapter tactic. Better than even the RG.
Your LT should never be shot at by the by, you have vehicles, he can hide.
14 pts cheaper if I give him no special weapon. That could either give my chapter master a thunderhammer, or I could give the LT a combi, or pistols or something. Good point, I didn't remember the cost of their guns. As for drops, I'm already at 14. I'm not going to finish deploying first. ITC uses first player gets +1 to go first, so it's not crippling to have this many drops.
The halo is definitely legit, but I get 3" ontop of my 6" for not just my full rerolls, but also storm of fire. Agree to disagree, but there's no denying both are strong, I think.
How? I get one reroll to wound on each squad. I already get full rerolls to hit. It's a very minor statistical increase for my army, at the cost of gaining a very large amount of bubble range (The more inches in a bubble, the more area each inch covers. 6" is a 113" bubble, 9" is a 254" bubble. The extra 3" more than doubles effective area) for two strong buffs which affect every unit I run. Nevermind the fact that the RG and BT stratagems are both stronger than sallys. The sally CT relies entirely on MSU infantry squads, which certainly have a place in the current meta. However, in an army which has rerolls widely available (and used), I think it's overrated. UM have the best stuff, all together, as Girlyman is OP, their CT negates a core mechanic of the game, their relic (as you pointed out) is very strong, and their stratagem is decent. I digress, to return to the point, I don't see serious advantage in any CT over BT with my army list aside from UM, and it's a moot point anyways as that's not something I'm changing.
If he's hiding he's not buffing. I can't put him in a vehicle after the shooting phase, so if I'm not buffing with him there's no point to having him. The only counter argument to this is leaving him in a vehicle during deployment, which is a valid advantage for standard LT. I'm reasonably sure I can keep him out of LOS, particularly if I go with the (well) suggested standard LT. Which I think I will, over the EC.
2017/09/26 16:50:38
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Honestly Plasma Cannons require too much saturation and have too few shots most of the time. Why not spring for the Grav Cannon? It'll overall be 2 shots landing compared to 1, and will gain a wound bonus vs the more important targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I feel we need to start discussing how to deal with Guard. If they got no point adjustments for their regular infantry, they're going to be brutal to face.
Grav cannons are something I've thought about. 7 more points adds up, but, like you said, the higher base shots is very good. Counter argument to this is the average damage. Figuring a 2 for D3 in both the PC shots and the GC damage;
Hitting on a .75 (Because both will have moved, but assuming reroll), and overcharing plasma (As I mentioned, it's the primary manner in which I use them).
Vs T4, 3+
Grav, 3.33
Plas, 2.08
Vs T5, 3+
Grav 2.5
Plas 1.6
Vs T6-7, 3+
Both average 1.66 wounds
Vs T8, 3+
Grav 1.66
Plas 1.24
Against anything 4+ or worse, the Plas is better, every time. Vs 3+, grav averages ~50% more efficiency against (almost) every target, for 33% more cost. Without the (~2% per shot) chance of frying yourself. The number of 4+, multi-wound targets that you will need to be disembarking to kill is pretty limited, basically just some Daemons, Harlequin characters, a handful of Ork/Nids/DE, and Eldar light vehicles? I think you're right and the gravs might be the better choice. The problem is going to be finding the points. Is the efficiency difference worth cutting HKM?
I think we're pretty limited in what we can use to handle guard, beyond our current choices. SR with hurricane bolters, TAC and THB, tarantula spam, razorbacks all have solid shots per cost, but unless commissars are nerfed then we simply lack the tools to eat up a conscript wall, I think. Maybe vets with SB+chainsword, will get 7 S4 attacks each, but that's contingent on getting a reliable charge range.
Post 2017/09/26 16:23:12 Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Traceoftoxin wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Traceoftoxin wrote:
Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.
ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.
Brigade
/snip.
Wow, a brigade. Cool.
Couple of thoughts:
Throw those scouts away and replace with intercessors. Intercessors, unlike bolter scouts, are good. More wounds, more attacks, better armour, better (though fewer) guns.
You have two predators and a whirlwind. Take 3 predators instead, sit your general near them with storm of fire, and activate the kill shot stratagem. Many things will die. I realise that you need a lot of spare points to do this, so if it's not possible then never mind. Or drop a razorback to do it, maybe swapping the guys inside for more intercessors. Did I mention that I like intercessors?
You're (inevitably) a bit character-heavy. Personally I'd ditch one of your captains and get a lieutenant, as has already been suggested. Sit him with your captain and predators for even more fun times.
Thanks for the input. Not trying to argue, just doing a back and forth.
Scouts are there solely to deny first turn assault via deepstrike. Something intercessors cannot do effectively without forcing me back into a corner and giving up the ability to maneuver. Critical in games now because of heavy LOS blocking terrain. I'd get 1 intercessor for every 2 scouts. I don't think 20 scouts or 10 intercessors firepower is going to really do much damage to anything. Neither is going to live to the end of the game if they're being used as bubble wrap. Intercessors are like 10% more wounds/attacks/shots per point, since you get 2 scouts per intercessor, though the armor is notable. They just lack the footprint I need/want for stopping heavy assault style units.
I've considered the 3rd predator, though not sure where I'd find 80 pts. Kill shot is amazing, and with a brigade I can definitely afford to use it a lot - if I don't lose a predator. I think this is a legit suggestion, but I'm not sure I can adjust the list adequately to fit it, or if it'll actually play out well. I rarely keep my predators within 6" of each other, generally they're each on the opposite side of 9" of my chapter master for better LOS coverage.
3 characters is character heavy? I have 279 pts in my HQ - less than girlyman alone. Why replace the captain over the EC? I'm definitely leaning towards an LT, but it seems like the EC would be the more obvious choice to replace. The EC is better vs chars than TH/SS, but TH/SS decimates walkers, heavy infantry and is perfectly adequate vs chars. He's also very mobile. EC seems very situational, and the LT would be a strong army-wide buff.
Valid points on the scouts as bubble wrap. I use flyers for this and my army is pretty quick, so I don't care about being pushed back. In that case I'd take them in 5-man units though. It strikes me that fielding 3x5 scouts, and potentially losing a whole razorback full of crusaders, might be a good way for you to free up points for that predator.
Having to put all your predators in one place is indeed a problem of the kill shot approach. On the other hand you aren't forced to do it if you don't want to - but it's a nice option to have. Predators are good so having 3 remains a good thing even if you aren't always using kill shot. Meanwhile the whirlwind really does not look very good at all to me.
I have to say, I'm not sold on the idea of using a brigade at 2k - at least as marines. I just run a battalion and I find it's ok. CPs are good, but not good enough to justify spending hundreds of points on units you don't really want. I just threw together a brigade list using intercessors for all the troops and at realised I had far too few big guns. I think you're in the same boat. If I was lined up against you I think I'd look to pop your predators asap (I'd probably go first) and after that you'd probably struggle to get rid of my storm raven, repulsor and xiphon. Please don't take this as one-upmanship - I just find that the best way to analyse a list is to imagine fighting against it.
Instead, I'd take a battalion and a spearhead. Drop your tarantulas and elites - or get some that are actually useful. A couple of contemptors would give you something that could fight in cc (really really well) for example - and they'd even benefit from your CTs. You wouldn't be swimming in CPs but you'd have an ok number still. You'd also unlock access to planes, which you can't really afford to ever bring in a brigade.
I could do 3x5, saves me 33 pts, then drop a crusader squad all together and that will give me enough for a pred. I can keep the razorback as a DT for scouts. Good idea.
I think the whirlwind is better than it looks at first glance, but I agree a predator is more likely the stronger choice.
I don't spend hundreds on units I don't want, actually the only units I have I don't want are cenobyte servitors, and they're 6 pts. The tarantulas are very cost efficient, they have not failed to kill their points or more every game. The vets work great as counter-assault units for relatively cheap coming out of the Rhino. I am happy with my heavy and troops and HQ slots, although the EC being changed to an LT seems like a smart change. Even assuming I drop them, they're only a combined 71 points, and the 4 company vets are 84 (92 with the swords). So I have 161 pts of units that you say I should drop. If I wanted something to fight well in CC to replace them I'd take another Jump captain with TH/SS - they're extremely cost efficient and effective, but the battalion allows me to use the 3CP on a chapter master and still have 9 CP. Which is about how many I use in 3 turns, my average game length (after turn 3, the game is generally decided).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/26 16:50:54
2017/09/26 17:26:48
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
jcd386 wrote: Your LT is unlikely to ever see combat, so cheaper is better, period. He's just there for the aura. You don't have to worry about him being shot because he is a character.
You have a lot of points in your characters. Sobe they are mostly just there for rerolls, i typically take mine on foot, start them in a tank, and then disembark and advance in the first turn if my fire base is moving up. To me, the bike and jump pack seem unneeded.
I also wonder if 1 capt and 2 LTs is better than 2 capts, since the 9" might be enough to keep your whole army inside of, and for a lot of weapons rerolling wounds of 1 is better or the same as rerolling hits of 1 if you do happen to be out of range of the CM, but not a LT.
Scouts are great, but I've found 15 to be enough to deny most enemies.
I'd at least think about taking 3 preds instead of 2 and the ww.
Seems good to me other than that.
Oh and yes, grav is the way to go for sure, i think.
I agree on the LT, cheaper is better. I was thinking primaris for the extra wound vs snipers (I face them regularly in my meta), but if I go standard he'll be able to hide behind tanks.
The TH/SS jump captain has been an MVP in every single game of mine. The movement allows him to jump across LOS blocking pieces of terrain, and the flat 3 damage per wound allows him to obliterate anything multi-wound. His aura rarely affects anything but himself, since I either keep him back with the captain as a counter-assault element, or move him up jumping from terrain to terrain before hammering something that needs to be hammered.
The bike is there because the larger base give me a better aura range, the movement means I can get him to cover any area I need to if I'm moving my forces, the T cuts sniper wounds by 16%, the W is obviously nice. I've not played a game where he wasn't in combat, and in several games he's survived the game with 1W remaining.
However, I agree with you on the two LT idea. Maybe swap the TH/SS captain to a LT. I keep the 2+ WS, I give up 1W and 1A. I will likely not have rerolls to hit with him in combat, but instead I can reroll to wound. This is a 15 pt difference. Something definitely to consider.
Taking all this talk into consideration, here's my new idea;
1994 pts (6 to spare)
HQ Captain on bike, PF/SS Captain with JP, TH/SS LT Stormbolter
I could do 3x5, saves me 33 pts, then drop a crusader squad all together and that will give me enough for a pred. I can keep the razorback as a DT for scouts. Good idea.
I think the whirlwind is better than it looks at first glance, but I agree a predator is more likely the stronger choice.
I don't spend hundreds on units I don't want, actually the only units I have I don't want are cenobyte servitors, and they're 6 pts. The tarantulas are very cost efficient, they have not failed to kill their points or more every game. The vets work great as counter-assault units for relatively cheap coming out of the Rhino. I am happy with my heavy and troops and HQ slots, although the EC being changed to an LT seems like a smart change. Even assuming I drop them, they're only a combined 71 points, and the 4 company vets are 84 (92 with the swords). So I have 161 pts of units that you say I should drop. If I wanted something to fight well in CC to replace them I'd take another Jump captain with TH/SS - they're extremely cost efficient and effective, but the battalion allows me to use the 3CP on a chapter master and still have 9 CP. Which is about how many I use in 3 turns, my average game length (after turn 3, the game is generally decided).
Cool. It sounds like you know your list. Between all of us I think we've made some improvements to it. Dropping the crusader squad but keeping the RB is getting the best of both.
Good luck.
I'm putting a list together for a tournament myself. I'd be interested in comments. My guys are crimson fists. It's 2k, with just a single battalion so 6CPs.
I tried it out last night against GKs in the relic. I won heavily but was helped a lot by seizing the initiative. I realised that I've got nothing that deep strikes, which could be an issue. I'm now thinking about swapping my aggressors for 5 cataphractii with fists, storm bolters and maybe a grenade harness. I could trim a bit off the repulsor to save the points. To be honest I think that would probably be the right call.
Primaris Captain (Warlord)
Plasma Pistol
Power Fist (Upgraded to Fist of Vengeance relic)
Warlord Trait: +1A on charge and reroll charges
Primaris Librarian
Force Sword
Smite
Null Zone
Might of Heroes
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
3 Assault Centurions
Three Hurricane Bolters
Four Flamers
Two Melta Guns
Omniscope
5 Aggressors
Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
5 Hellblasters
Plasma Incinerators
Storm Raven Gunship
Twin Plasma Cannon
Twin Multi-melta
Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers
Two Hurricane Bolters
Xiphon Interceptor
Two Twin Lascannon
Xiphon Missile Battery
Repulsor
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Three Storm Bolters
Two Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Two Krakstorm Grenade Launchers
Ironhail Heavy Stubber
What are you putting in each transport? Have you had any issues with having 2 big transports with lots of stuff in them? The xiphon seems like a very strong unit, how has its performance been vs ground targets?
Why plas cannon on SR over TAC? I'm pretty sure the TAC averages more wounds against almost every target, though I could be wrong without checking the math. Assuming the MM is for a reliable AT on a mobile platform?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/26 17:38:00
2017/09/26 19:11:01
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Without the (~2% per shot) chance of frying yourself. The number of 4+, multi-wound targets that you will need to be disembarking to kill is pretty limited, basically just some Daemons, Harlequin characters, a handful of Ork/Nids/DE, and Eldar light vehicles? I think you're right and the gravs might be the better choice. The problem is going to be finding the points. Is the efficiency difference worth cutting HKM?
Remember, by moving and overcharging the PCs, you're sitting at about an 11% chance of frying yourself.
Rolling a 1 modifies it to a 0. There is no rule that says you cannot modify a roll to below 1 or over 6 (The previous designer's commentary that said you couldn't modify below a 1 is no longer published, feel free to check here, it has been superseded by the official FAQ). Plasma only triggers on a 1. If it said it triggered on an unmodified roll of 1, then rolling a 2 wouldn't matter. Though rerolling your 2s to hit and getting a 1 is still an option, so it's about an 5% chance to fry yourself with a 4+. A 3 always misses, since "re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied."
Thanks for pointing it out though, I didn't even think about how the -1 to hit modifier affected the plasma, we've all been playing just on natural 1s, rather than modified 1s. The designer commentary not being current is notable, either they changed their minds or forgot, either way we won't know till they update it again.
As it stands, black templars don't really give you anything while Sallys net you free rerolls. But it will not change and that is okay
Ultras do have the best characters of course, but that's independent of CT, which o think sallies and raven guard have the better options
Black templars more than double the effective range of my chapter master and warlord trait aura, they give me a relatively reliable deny from any of my units (75% if I use 2 CP), and they ensure I very rarely fail short/medium (4-7") charges. Salamanders would get me maybe 8 reroll to wounds per game, as I don't get it on vehicles. BT gives me easily dozens of rerolls to hit by having my CM range extended so far. Like I said, I was examining the chapter as a whole, and again, it's irrelevant because my army is painted and that's all there is to it.
2017/09/26 22:01:00
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Total: 2000/2000
The Hellblasters and Aggressors can SftS forwards with Shrike and the VVs and the rest form a firebase with the reroll auras.
I'm still not sold on the Scout armament, 20pts in rifles is a lot when I'm avging 1 wound from the unit at best, but I realized I do own 5 painted sniper models and half my bolter/shotguns are unassembled, so maybe I'll give it a try?...For those who saw my prior list revision, I did swap the 5 grav Devs for 7 Hellblasters. I still think the firepower is mostly a wash, but I do like 14W instead of 5W. If I kept the Devs, I thought I'd add 2 HB Tarantulas with the spare 60ish points. That'd give some super cheap DS protection without having to hold Scouts back.
The money from scouts is on the mortal wounds, so if they've got any sort of rerolls that helps fish for that. Seems like your StfS could do a good job controlling the enemy's movement, and gives you a ton of flexibility in deployment. My biggest concern is the fragility of devs, though with the -1 to hit and all those up front targets, theoretically they should be alright, I think. I've used bolter and shotgun squads for scouts, I'm not really seeing much difference. The shotguns put a few more wounds when you manage to infiltrate and get right on top of stuff, and the bolters get more targets to choose. Neither is killing its weight in points and the scouts generally just work to keep gak off my lines. Might find the sniper scouts would be better used as screening units, though the sniper rule can end up really paying off, I think. Hard to know.
2017/09/26 22:52:59
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
The money from scouts is on the mortal wounds, so if they've got any sort of rerolls that helps fish for that. Seems like your StfS could do a good job controlling the enemy's movement, and gives you a ton of flexibility in deployment. My biggest concern is the fragility of devs, though with the -1 to hit and all those up front targets, theoretically they should be alright, I think. I've used bolter and shotgun squads for scouts, I'm not really seeing much difference. The shotguns put a few more wounds when you manage to infiltrate and get right on top of stuff, and the bolters get more targets to choose. Neither is killing its weight in points and the scouts generally just work to keep gak off my lines. Might find the sniper scouts would be better used as screening units, though the sniper rule can end up really paying off, I think. Hard to know.
I doubt the sniper rule is going to pay off with only 5 shots, I'm not threatening anything that isn't already near dead, but they were talked up in the RG thread and I didn't have a burning need for those 20pts. I could reshuffle some wargear and get another Hellblaster or Tarantula maybe. Oh, or drop a Hellblaster to get 5 more sniper rifles, but then they aren't as sacrificial bubble wrap now that they're armed.
I regularly play against someone who uses 5 pathfinders, and they put out about a mortal wound a turn on chars. Sometimes none, sometimes two. Just having them does make the opponent change their tactics though.
2017/09/27 03:10:41
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
The money from scouts is on the mortal wounds, so if they've got any sort of rerolls that helps fish for that. Seems like your StfS could do a good job controlling the enemy's movement, and gives you a ton of flexibility in deployment. My biggest concern is the fragility of devs, though with the -1 to hit and all those up front targets, theoretically they should be alright, I think. I've used bolter and shotgun squads for scouts, I'm not really seeing much difference. The shotguns put a few more wounds when you manage to infiltrate and get right on top of stuff, and the bolters get more targets to choose. Neither is killing its weight in points and the scouts generally just work to keep gak off my lines. Might find the sniper scouts would be better used as screening units, though the sniper rule can end up really paying off, I think. Hard to know.
I doubt the sniper rule is going to pay off with only 5 shots, I'm not threatening anything that isn't already near dead, but they were talked up in the RG thread and I didn't have a burning need for those 20pts. I could reshuffle some wargear and get another Hellblaster or Tarantula maybe. Oh, or drop a Hellblaster to get 5 more sniper rifles, but then they aren't as sacrificial bubble wrap now that they're armed.
I regularly play against someone who uses 5 pathfinders, and they put out about a mortal wound a turn on chars. Sometimes none, sometimes two. Just having them does make the opponent change their tactics though.
I'm not gonna shift my tactics because I might get 2 mortal wounds. I might if I get 4 though.
Sniper Scouts do good, but only in redundancy.
Just having the ability to pick out characters makes people change how they position them. Even though I know 5 pathfinders should never kill a bike captain, I've taken 3 mortal wounds from them in one round. I do my best to minimize their ability to get shots off. That's not saying they're great, or that they're going to kill a character or completely change someone's gameplan, but if you have snipers with LOS down an avenue of approach, your opponent may consider placing their character there. Games are not played with unlimited time, people are forced to make decisions under pressure and sometimes they overestimate or underestimate the danger of situations. I'm not sure it's worth the 20 points, but it is a factor to keep in mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jcd386 wrote: Seems more likely to me they just have a terrible website than they decided to change how the rules work. They also mentioned as recently as the chaos book previews that negative modifiers make plasma kill you on 1s and 2s, so it's safer to assume it does that it does not imo.
Considering there is no written rule saying that's how it works, and GW regularly misplays their own game, I don't think there's a solid argument for that to be RAW. RAI, I agree, but RAW all you have is an article written by someone on the web team.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/27 03:12:29
2017/10/10 09:32:04
Subject: Re:Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Went second, improperly screened my gunline and he missed his DS charge by 1". I lost a razorback, scouts and a tarantula to shooting. In return I picked up the knight and all the terminators+JP captain. From there it was me slowly grinding forward and wiping him out. Tabled him bottom of four or five.
Spoiler:
Round 2 vs Thousand Sons
KP based on PL
Spoiler:
Roughly;
Magnus
Ahriman
10 tzaangors
8 1k sons with flamers
5 1k sons
2x sorcerers
2x rhinos
2x heldrakes
1x maulerfiend
I deployed all my crusader squads, scouts and razorbacks as best as I could to screen my predators and make it difficult for him to consolidate into my gunline after his first turn charges inevitably wrecked my screen. I used BT stratagem to shut down Magnus invuln buff. He did exactly what I expected. I lost some squads and I think 2 razorbacks, but managed to keep 1 heldrake locked with scouts. My turn I killshot and took down Magnus and a heldrake. JP captain used his BT tactic to make a 8" charge into his locked heldrake and smash it down to half. From there on I adjusted my screen to stop the maulerfiend, and turn 3 or so I dropped vets out to start pounding the rubrics. Moving CM up to support my infantry, the extra 3" was clutch for rerolls on preds. He managed to get a rhino into my backfield but, again, I was able to keep 2 preds shooting almost all the way to the end. Game ended on bottom of 5 with just 3 tzaangors left on the field, hiding behind a building with my CM about to wipe them. Cost me a major victory, unfortunately.
Spoiler:
Third Round vs Chaos soup
6 objectivess with 1x 4pt, 1x 1pt, and 4x 2pt
Board had lots of large LOS blocking terrain. I actually got first turn but magnus was far corner (Vanguard deploy) so I couldn't reach with tanks. Used scouts to deny DS, killed most of 2 horror units, but not much. Changeling and some good saves on his part meant I did not much. He kept berserkers off, but brought in oblits. Used VOTLW and Slaanesh power to double tap one of my preds. I rolled amazingly and survived with 2 wounds. Shut down warptime on the cultists, since Magnus was still out of LOS, though in range. Lost most of my screening units to smite spam. In return I finished two horror squads, got a malefic lord and the oblits. His turn berserkers land, he makes 4/5 charges on 10+ and is just outside my pred flank. Shut down warptime again, since cultists were about 11" from my lines. My turn magnus is front and center, but can't afford to shoot him. Despite killshot, I barely manage to take out kharbydiss. I put two razorbacks, half a pred, all 6 vets, the chapter master into berserkers and kill 4. His saves were on fire. I picked up about 15~20 cultists. I charge berserkers, fail to do anything with first vet squad, he counter attacks and I fail 80% of my saves and lose every single vet. Dice have totally given up on me. I concede since I have no real chance of winning, and am too tired to try to drag another hour and a half into a possible minor loss. Even if the berserkers hand't been blessed by khorne himself, I probably would have lost still. Board had perfect LOS blocking coverage at distances that fit magnus movement and were just at smite range. In hindsight I could have used the auspex scan on a crusader squad vs the oblits, overcharged plasma may have picked one up. Alpha legion on a bunch of his stuff combined with changeling is really rough, even with rerolls. Having 3s just flat miss with no chance to reroll was extremely painful. If he had put berserkers down turn 2 on the far flank I intentionally left open, I may have had a chance. However, he played well, had a favorable matchup, had the 4 pt objective on his side, and the dice put an exclamation point on the match. I think I lose that one 80% of the time. Maybe if it had been 12" deployment with me having first turn I could've dumpstered Magnus out the gate and had a good shot, but, no such luck.
Interesting to think about, an UM player using Guilleman, 3 preds, a fire raptor and a terminus ultra got wiped out by the same list in half the time. I think having the 6 infantry squads as screens and the large number of units in general is very useful, despite giving up the +1 to go first.
Spoiler:
Overall I think this list is very strong. The only army I wasn't confident I could beat was the one I lost to, and the overall winner. Every unit performed as expected. I could see getting to the upper tables at a larger GT, but the list has a massive weakness to smite spam. Hordes could be a problem, depending on the army and what else is with the horde. The strongest things in the list were absolutely the bike chapter master and the preds. I would upgrade chapter master to thunder hammer, and maybe drop bike for JP. The mobility was a factor in every game, and the larger base helps with aura size. Company vets put out lots of dice and ate a 3 damage smite for him as well. The only thing I wished I had more of was scouts, though idk how I'd fit them. The crusaders were used to screen in 2 games, though when they actually got to shoot they were doing good damage. I was considering going heavier on the tarantulas, as enemies who charge them but dont wipe them can still be shot, but have to fall back to move away. The BT helm and strat were pivotal in both of my wins, and key to me staying alive in my last fight. I rerolled something like 3 or 4 charges with the chapter tactic, as well. I used all of my CP in every match.
I ended up in 3rd, the person I beat in round 2 was 2nd place because he had 2 major victories. That stung a bit, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles, I suppose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/10 21:39:15
2017/10/10 21:38:38
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
ultimentra wrote: That's an awesome list Traceoftoxin, I think I'm going to try and build towards something similar. Chapter approved is right around the corner though, so I may wait on buying 2 razorbacks and a bunch of tarantulas because you never know what's going to get nerfed and buffed. I really like the idea behind the list though.
A couple questions, where did you typically deploy your tarantulas? On objectives? Also what weapons did you give your scouts? Bolters? Shotguns?
Here's something I'm thinking about trying out in the near future:
Spoiler:
2k points, Black Templar Double Battalion + Spearhead:
Scouts sit on objectives, one pair of Captain/Lieutenant babysit the artillery, and the other go in the LRC with the plasma and melta squads. Emperor's Champion goes in the Storm Raven with the flamer squad to drop into the enemy deployment zone and say "hey look at me! I'm scary!"
I generally do 2 tarantulas near my predators/chapter master, and 1 on the far side of the deployment zone. Without the CM buffs, the tarantulas dont do much damage, but people still like to go after them so it serves as 27 pts of force splitting. I like to put them on the front line of deployment to help screen. As I mentioned, you can shoot anything within 1" of them, but if the enemy charges them, they can't just walk away without falling back. So, they make great screening units for very little cost.
I had 1 scout squad of each type. Overall I think the shotguns were the best, but, almost all the scouts did was control boardspace and die. Which is what I wanted them to do. So, that was fine. If you wanted them for objectives I'd take bolters or sniper rifles, though I think scout snipers are far too expensive (15 pts vs 7 pts for ratlings or elysian snipers, both are BS3+!!!).
Crusaders are not good at melee and never will be. Double flamer is decent. I use Emp Champ in a rhino with a double flamer squad for casual games, and it's a decent counter-assault unit, but there's so many better options. EC does do serious work vs characters though, I've had him 1 shot demon princes. Something you should keep in mind with your list.
I think if you want to do gunline style play you should drop the stormraven/LRC and move points around for 3x preds. If you want to play aggressive you should invest in company vets over melee crusaders. Either way, LRC are super vulnerable to being tied up, and you just don't have the means to stop it. I've used them 3-4 times in 8th, and while their firepower is pretty good, their best strength is being able to safely deliver assault units where you need them.
2017/10/18 00:10:31
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Bremon wrote: Black Templars is especially mediocre considering that’s their answer to “deny the witch”.
I disagree completely. It is statistically superior to DTW for critical abilities such as Warptime on Magnus, who is a chaos mainstay.
Plus in all honestly having the ability to drop in and charge is pretty clutch if you need to stop Conscripts from firing at you in mass amounts. It's almost a 50% chance. So basically if you drop in 4 units of Vanguard or Assault Marines, odds are that 2 of them make the charge most of the time. Also helps with Scouts as well. That said, everyone is about shooting is the issue.
Agreed. RG and UM are definitely the best chapters atm, but I think BT overall are third. even if Sallys have a really strong CT, their strat and relic are much weaker, imo.
I'm surprised White Scars spamming assault/vanguard vets aren't more common.
2017/10/18 03:50:32
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Bremon wrote: Black Templars is especially mediocre considering that’s their answer to “deny the witch”.
I disagree completely. It is statistically superior to DTW for critical abilities such as Warptime on Magnus, who is a chaos mainstay.
Am I missing something, or do BT not run out of DTW as soon as they run out of CP, and, by denying, neuter things like their ability to reroll damage on a mediocre damage roll, etc.? Different approaches I suppose. BT seem quite good though, overall, a nice balance of CT, warlord trait, relic, etc. Their anti-psyker ability in a meta of smite spam is a bit underwhelming to say the least.
I never said it was good for stopping smite spam, in fact I said earlier that was a major weakness. However, SM in general have a weakness to smite spam. What BT do have that no one else does is the highest % to stop key psychic abilities. DTW is basically 50% chance if you have a libby within 12, and less for anyone else. Far less when dealing with Magnus. How many librarians are you running in your list? Because if you don't have two librarians, you have exactly the same number of deny attempts as the BT player.
Really the only answer to smite spam, is smite spam. Which you can do with an AM detachment besides BT and get the best of both worlds.
As for CP - Because of the BT relic helm you can take a CM and get a mini Guilleman for 1/3 the cost, opening up the ability to take a brigade. With 9 CP, I have enough CP to deny (with chance for reroll) and use killshot for 3 turns. I don't generally use CP for much other than that.
2017/10/18 17:12:05
Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
bobsmith7777 wrote: Is there any good reason to taking a 4x Lascannon Predator over two Twin-lascannon Razorbacks? You are paying roughly 40 more points, but you get 10 more wounds and an extra Stormbolter/HK. Not to mention damaging one Razorback won't affect the stats of the other.
. But, is what it is.
