Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition

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**vaklor4**

Trancefate wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
The CSM princes don't get the daemon defensive abilities (ie ephemeral form).

AHAH! Thank you, knew I was missing something. Guess it wouldn't matter for me anyway since weaver is an autocast for Magnus.

They also have a severe downside in theit statline.

At the moment, a CSM DP has 8 wounds and a Daemon DP has 10. On paper this means better survivability. In practice, this makes it open season.

At 9 or less wounds, a Character can hide behind a screen of virtually any other unit. But since the Daemon DP is at 10, it just falls into the mark where the opponent can gleefully shred it without care.

**vaklor4**

Stuxseth wrote:
How can daemons deal with flyers ?
eldars craftworld hemlocks seems devastating to me...

If you need to deal with Flyers, you got the following solutions.

Plague Drones for Nurgle.
Bloodthristers and Skull cannons for Khorne.
Smite and Screechers for Tzeech
And Slaanesh?...Furies and Daemon Princes can be taken with them I guess? (And with all other of the 4 factions at that)

**vaklor4**

I like Bloodthirsters! Sure, only two of the three are useful, but they can absolutely shred heavy infantry/tanks. Heck, they can rip super heavys to shreds, which is more than most units can say.

**vaklor4**

rvd1ofakind wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
I like Bloodthirsters! Sure, only two of the three are useful, but they can absolutely shred heavy infantry/tanks. Heck, they can rip super heavys to shreds, which is more than most units can say.

They are one of the worst units in the game. Stop spreading missinformation.

This is a tactics thread. Not a single major tournament list that does even OK has a bloodthirster. The entire SoCal had no khorne units period.

Tactics don't just apply to major tournaments, you salty cheese monger

Play what you wanna play, enjoy what you wanna play.

Out of the games i've brought Khorne Daemons to my local area, they've never not pulled weight.

**vaklor4**

rvd1ofakind wrote:
I play against my five year old son. My Khorne is crushing. Best army. GW should nerf it /s

**vaklor4**

Cephalobeard wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
rvd1ofakind wrote:
I play against my five year old son. My Khorne is crushing. Best army. GW should nerf it /s

I'm happy to point out when RVD is being salty, this isn't one of those moments. He's being realistic. If the argument is, "I play casually and--" then it isn't an argument. The value of any model, from a casual perspective, is not based on tactic but purely upon ones personal opinion of them.

Which is totally fine.

However, as it stands, Greater Daemons are some of the worst models probably in the game right now.

Isnt Lord ot Change used in Tzeetch Daemon lists? I understand the point youre making, but im fairly certain LoC is an exception to the other 3.

**vaklor4**

Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm sure someone, somewhere has used them. Competitively? Absolutely not.

Early on in 8th I saw LoC used in Daemon lists, but I havent had the time to look into the newer stuff post-AM codex

**vaklor4**

Does anyone have experience with the Skull Cannon from Khorne Daemons? I want to know just how playable it is. Not how great or good or even ok it is, I just want to know if there is ANY viable reason to /ever/ take this thing.

**vaklor4**

Discodoggy wrote:
I'm gonna play my third game with my Slaanesh/EC army and I will be facing Tyranids for the first time. I'll be using these units:

30 Demonettes (3x10 with 1 herald)
10ish seekers with herald
KoS (my first time!)

DP with wings
noise marines
vindicator

I also have a forge/maulerfiend

My opponent will have:
a tryant
swarmlord
tervigon and gaunts
genestealers
exocrine

Out of all that I'm most worried about the swarmlord. How will the KoS and DP fare against it? I can get rid of the KoS to proxy some oblits or a predator, but I'm trying for this to be my fun/casual army and don't want to over do it with all the best units, yet at the same time don't want to get totally crushed. I would also like to keep the KoS for the Slaanesh flavor.

Ideas on how I should play? We're doing 1500 points.

In my peronsal opinion, chop those seekers down to 5 and add in either Marines, or Cultists. You will find yourself lacking anything to help protect your HQ choices against sudden attacks, which genestealers can easily do. Even so much as 20 cultists or 5 marines and a heavy bolter can go a long way in protecting your back line.

**vaklor4**

Cephalobeard wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
The biggest problem with Brimstones becoming t2 is that there are no rules to handle multi-toughness units.

I would rather see another points increase rather than a 5/6++ as Tzeentches thing is having 4++.

The funny thing about Brimstones is that even if they were costed at 5ppm, they would still have better utility than Blue Horrors. And still also better utility than 7ppm Pinks.

IMO they need to improve split to make it more attractive. At the moment you are likely to lose half of your models due to moral after splitting. I wouldn't mind if when splitting that it negates the penalty for the lost model. This would make me consider taking Pinks / Blues just for the resilient hoard factor. It may however be too powerful of an ability.

Increasing the price makes split less viable. They've dropped the print of pinks twice now, but also increased the price of Brims. They're useless, arbitrary changes.

You either need moderately price (12 or so) ppm pinks that have free split and bad saves, or very cheap versions of all the models otherwise no one will ever use them.

There is a monetary argument, as well, as each series of splits for 10 Pinks is $100 US for the price. It's an absolute atrocious troops choice because you have no other option, and they've shoehorned it into the ground.

Don't the Tzaangors or whatever they're called have the Daemon keyword? They're Tzeetch Daemons, just from a different side of the Chaos Books

**vaklor4**

I'm getting a little bit of an eye roll at this point with how heavily they've been pushing Nurgle. It seems like they just want Khorne to stay in AoS, and Slaanesh to die off.

**vaklor4**

When playing CSM/Khorne, is having a few units of Letters and a couple units of Zerkers redundent? Or do they each have their own respective uses in CC?

**vaklor4**

I also run a Khorne Daemonkin army (Daemons/CSM soup) and it is a fantastic and fun army. Often times I find although on paper it's redundent to bring Bezerkers AND Bloodletters, the bloodletters will always get more fire directed on them, while your party vans can roll up the battlefield unharmed.

Also, take Skull Cannons. They're legit great now.

**vaklor4**

Dew wrote:
Do people even still really save the points for splitting now? Doesn't seem like anyone I play with really bothers with blue or brims much since the new book. Maybe a few brims for obj holders but not as a Pink split

Brims are all but useless at this point, aside from ovjectice holders as you said. But even then, deepstriking pinks to hold it is still better, since they can fight off contestents.

**vaklor4**

So I have a question that is more for opinions than anything else. What is your opinion on Bloodthirsters? Is it better to just run Skarbrand now that he is a mere 20 points higher than a standard BT, or do BTs still have a place with their different weapon loadouts?

**vaklor4**

mrhappyface wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
So I have a question that is more for opinions than anything else. What is your opinion on Bloodthirsters? Is it better to just run Skarbrand now that he is a mere 20 points higher than a standard BT, or do BTs still have a place with their different weapon loadouts?

The biggest thing was always the 12" movement over the 8" movement, though with Deep Strike Strats that's not such a problem.

I've only run Skarbrand once this edition, in a semi-friendly game where he charged Guilliman, did no damage and then had Guilliman kick his arse. It wasn't Skarbrand's finest moment.

I primarily have used Skarbrand as a buffer and a fire magnet, instead of an actual huge threat. People tend to focus the Bloodthirster special instead of focusing on the 10 Berzerkers getting auto-morale and 2+ attacks (due to two fight phases).

**vaklor4**

luke1705 wrote:
Skarbrand is better than a normal BT, but the best is a daemon prince with the skullreaver relic.

Untargetability OP

Why not have both?

BT gives a huge morale boost. Argueably not as good as rerolling, but as I said, take both!

**vaklor4**

Thenord wrote:
Quick question. Which mono god army works best in all comers, casual setting?

I'd actually say Khorne, personally. Despite being all about hard melee, their heavy support option is one of the better artillery pieces in Chaos in my opinion. Cheap, suprisingly tough for the points, doens't degrade, and shoots far.

**vaklor4**

Boss Salvage wrote:
What Greywolf said.

Your list did get me thinking about what a Khorne Brigade might look like ...

Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster - Armor of Skorne
Daemon Prince of Khorne - Skullreaver, wings
Skullmaster

10 Bloodletters
10 Bloodletters
10 Bloodletters
10 Bloodletters
10 Bloodletters
10 Bloodletters

3 Bloodcrushers - instrument
3 Bloodcrushers
3 Bloodcrushers

5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds

Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon
----------------------------------------------
1998 || 15 CP (-1 for extra relic)

That's a lot of CP! To help MSU Kr0n do whatever it does! (Play for objectives + burn CP protecting the thirster?)

- Salvage

I'd skip the Crushers, and either add more HQs, Flesh hounds if they're bringing psykers, or just plain more Letters.

*EDIT* Sorry, I didn't see it was a brigade, I posted that reply on VERY little energy

**vaklor4**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Hey guys!

I'm considering refining my Slaanesh army by adding in some Defilers and whatnot in a CSM detachment, but am struggling to keep CP up.

I want to make Zarakynel work, but to be worth it she desperately needs a 3++ in the enemy shooting phase, which is the 2CP stratagem.

Is 9CP enough to make Zarakynel function plus having CP for neato stuff for the Defilers e.g. Daemonforge? I otherwise can't seem to squeeze in 2 battalions, a couple of defiliers, and Zarakynel with the premises I want.

My "Core" that I really enjoy running is Zarakynel, a Winged Daemon Prince with the Souleater relic (morathi model), a Herald of Slaanesh, and 60 Daemonettes in 3 units of 20 with instruments and icons. That comes out to 1407 points and 5CP (one BN and one Super Heavy Auxiliary).

I'm trying to fit in 2 Defilers and a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant at least - to add 30 cultists and another HQ puts me over 2k but keeps me at 13 CP. I am looking at just adding a 3rd tank/Daemon Engine (e.g. a cheapo autocannon pred or something as the 3rd heavy support), but I go down to 9 CP and I'm not certain 9 is enough...

...any other creative solutions beyond answering 'is 9cp enough' are welcome, but I really would like to continue to use Zarakynel because while she's overpriced, she's also awesome.

Well, just take a look at how much CP you want to spend on other stuff, and then look at what you're burning per turn.

On average, you're gonna be burning at least 3 CP a turn on +1 invuln, alongside the daemonforge stratagem on the defiler, as it's pretty much a must on it. That's 9 CP over the course of 3 turns, and that's ONLY if you use it for literally nothing else.

In my opinion, you're better off just either not running Zara, or deepstriking them so that your opponent doens't have a chance to really deal with them as they run up the board, saving you at least 2 CP.

**vaklor4**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Hey guys!

I'm considering refining my Slaanesh army by adding in some Defilers and whatnot in a CSM detachment, but am struggling to keep CP up.

I want to make Zarakynel work, but to be worth it she desperately needs a 3++ in the enemy shooting phase, which is the 2CP stratagem.

Is 9CP enough to make Zarakynel function plus having CP for neato stuff for the Defilers e.g. Daemonforge? I otherwise can't seem to squeeze in 2 battalions, a couple of defiliers, and Zarakynel with the premises I want.

My "Core" that I really enjoy running is Zarakynel, a Winged Daemon Prince with the Souleater relic (morathi model), a Herald of Slaanesh, and 60 Daemonettes in 3 units of 20 with instruments and icons. That comes out to 1407 points and 5CP (one BN and one Super Heavy Auxiliary).

I'm trying to fit in 2 Defilers and a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant at least - to add 30 cultists and another HQ puts me over 2k but keeps me at 13 CP. I am looking at just adding a 3rd tank/Daemon Engine (e.g. a cheapo autocannon pred or something as the 3rd heavy support), but I go down to 9 CP and I'm not certain 9 is enough...

...any other creative solutions beyond answering 'is 9cp enough' are welcome, but I really would like to continue to use Zarakynel because while she's overpriced, she's also awesome.

Well, just take a look at how much CP you want to spend on other stuff, and then look at what you're burning per turn.

On average, you're gonna be burning at least 3 CP a turn on +1 invuln, alongside the daemonforge stratagem on the defiler, as it's pretty much a must on it. That's 9 CP over the course of 3 turns, and that's ONLY if you use it for literally nothing else.

In my opinion, you're better off just either not running Zara, or deepstriking them so that your opponent doens't have a chance to really deal with them as they run up the board, saving you at least 2 CP.

It's good to see that you agree that 9CP just isn't enough.

The problems with your solutions are:

Solution 1: I want to run Zarakynel. I know she's bad, and 206 points worse after Chapter Approved (460->666) but I love her.

Solution 2: Deep striking Zarakynel means I just spend the 2CP during deployment instead of Turn 1, and she has a /very/ high chance of getting into combat Turn 1, with a 15" move plus advance plus charge, if I just deploy her. It also means she can't arrive till turn 2, at least outside of my DZ. At that point I might as well summon her, it feels like.

Have you considered using her gorgeous model as just a standard keeper of secrets? And I do see your point about my solution being flawed. In general though, most Daemon armies or armies with daemons are VERY CP hungry. Their power improves durastically as you give them more CP to work with, so I do think it is highly worth it to try to fit in some more CP, even one more battalion would put you up to 14, which is pretty great.

**vaklor4**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
The 2 Battalions gets me to 13, not 14. The 9 comes from one of the detachments being a Spearhead of Defilers, which would become a Battalion with defiliers ... if I could fit it in 2k.

And I have considered using her model as a KoS, but I'm actually even less impressed with Zarakynel then. She may be bad at 666 points, but at least on the table when the chits are down she's got some really good stats and weapons. The only thing the KoS brings to the table is the -1 to hit caused by bashin enemies in the face with the sword... everything else is just worse than the other Greater Daemons.

Worse? Yeah, if you just put a bloodthirster, Lord of Change, Great Unclean One and Keeper of Secrets on the board. But the Keeper is pretty much a clear 100 points cheaper than the others. Sure, it doesn't bring a booming force to the table...But it costs as much as your defiler.

**vaklor4**

In my opinion you may as well just run 2 detachments of battalion khorne daemons, and lose out on that 2 extra CP from the brigade. 9 Bloodcrushers is a HILARIOUS investment for 2 CP.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

arhurt wrote:
How do I better deal with Knights on a Tzeench pink horror list?

I've been trying to surround them with pinks but since they can simply fall back and still shoot it gets really tricky and they just pummel my LoC to death.

I'm using around 50 to 70 pinks with Exalted Flamers, Demon Prince, Herald and LoC with Impossible Robe.

Daemon Princes with axes are pretty great anti-heavy, alternatively just getting MORE exalted flamers works too.

**vaklor4**

Tazberry wrote:
Someone know how to bring Astra Militarum down with daemons? I play Tzeentch but got some khorne too. Allies in CSM oblits but even with reroll 1 to hit and to wound I got obliterated... 30pinks T1 with maybe 5 from another unit. Failed a charge 5” with Khorne DP my T1 so in his T2 my DP second unit pinks,my fluxmaster and an Eflamer got killed.

Dropping in 3 units of oblits, charge guards, bullgryns and a commander but only wounding 2 of 5 tanks and killing of the bullgryns... His T3 killing my 2DP all oblits so I gave up.

Fun game but all that firepower got me thinking. Am i playing with wrong units in total or, are the Astra this crazy strong?

Someone know Daemons and how to counter astras brutally firepower. Deep strike to kill screen seems like a no no. And I don’t play nurgel or Slaanesh..

Pink horrors can deal with guardsmen pretty easily, and exalted flamers can hide behind pink blobs to be your anti tank

**vaklor4**

Defilers are always better, even deepstriking a soul grinder isnt fantastic, because if youre getting something THAT big that close, you may as well deepstrike a BT instead.

**vaklor4**

rvd1ofakind wrote:
elodingens wrote:
TS DP cant take Warpbolter afaik.

Yay illegal lists

Warp bolters are an index option I believe.

**vaklor4**

operkoi wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
It physically hurts me that Soul Grinders are SO much worse than Defilers.

Send help.

To be fair they are quite a bit better in melee then defilers and locuses and alignment can make them suprisingly effective (i.e turn 1 slaanesh soul grinder charges and cripples enemy knight, or 4+ invuln tzeentch grinder with locus to negate hit rolls of x creating great rage from enemy leman russes) but i'd rather have the shooting, strategems, and -1 to hit legion trait on the defiler 4/5 times.

In my opinion (because im too lazy to do the math like I usually do), the Defiler is still stronger in melee, just for the simple fact that for 1 CP you can reroll all your crap. I think that's far stronger than any bonus you get from being daemon faction keyword. Additionally, Defilers can get healed by Warpsmiths, for a potential 2-4 wounds a turn...Which can get fairly out of hand.

**vaklor4**

blackmage wrote:
defiler is strong... if you play garagehammer.

The fact we're even comparing Soul Grinder vs Defiler means we're talking kitchen top. Nowhere on planet earth would you bring a Soul Grinder or Defiler to a tournament and think you are giving yourself an edge.

**vaklor4**

blackmage wrote:
yes that's why i can say both fit to garagehammer play.

The arguement isn't that they are both garagehammer, we all know that. But stat by stat basis, the Soul Grinder is not even close to as good as the Defiler. Both aren't tournament level, but the difference is a B+ unit and a C- unit.

**vaklor4**

blackmage wrote:
if Gw cant make proper rules/units cost...after a zillion years they developing wh40k.. should be a big hint

I give them a pass when it comes to this, because this is a whole new edition with whole new weight of what is good and what isn't. You really can't go off the metric of cost from 7th, because that's what they did with flamers and now look at how bad flamers are. New system ,new points. They're still working out the kinks, just like we are.