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operkoi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It physically hurts me that Soul Grinders are SO much worse than Defilers.

Send help.

To be fair they are quite a bit better in melee then defilers and locuses and alignment can make them suprisingly effective (i.e turn 1 slaanesh soul grinder charges and cripples enemy knight, or 4+ invuln tzeentch grinder with locus to negate hit rolls of x creating great rage from enemy leman russes) but i'd rather have the shooting, strategems, and -1 to hit legion trait on the defiler 4/5 times.

In my opinion (because im too lazy to do the math like I usually do), the Defiler is still stronger in melee, just for the simple fact that for 1 CP you can reroll all your crap. I think that's far stronger than any bonus you get from being daemon faction keyword. Additionally, Defilers can get healed by Warpsmiths, for a potential 2-4 wounds a turn...Which can get fairly out of hand.

defiler is strong... if you play garagehammer.

 blackmage wrote:
defiler is strong... if you play garagehammer.

The fact we're even comparing Soul Grinder vs Defiler means we're talking kitchen top. Nowhere on planet earth would you bring a Soul Grinder or Defiler to a tournament and think you are giving yourself an edge.

yes that's why i can say both fit to garagehammer play.

 blackmage wrote:
yes that's why i can say both fit to garagehammer play.

The arguement isn't that they are both garagehammer, we all know that. But stat by stat basis, the Soul Grinder is not even close to as good as the Defiler. Both aren't tournament level, but the difference is a B+ unit and a C- unit.

if Gw cant make proper rules/units cost...after a zillion years they developing wh40k.. should be a big hint

 blackmage wrote:
if Gw cant make proper rules/units cost...after a zillion years they developing wh40k.. should be a big hint

I give them a pass when it comes to this, because this is a whole new edition with whole new weight of what is good and what isn't. You really can't go off the metric of cost from 7th, because that's what they did with flamers and now look at how bad flamers are. New system ,new points. They're still working out the kinks, just like we are.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
if Gw cant make proper rules/units cost...after a zillion years they developing wh40k.. should be a big hint

I give them a pass when it comes to this, because this is a whole new edition with whole new weight of what is good and what isn't. You really can't go off the metric of cost from 7th, because that's what they did with flamers and now look at how bad flamers are. New system ,new points. They're still working out the kinks, just like we are.

And they won't get anywhere with 8th ed anyway. It will remaing unbalanced and eventually edition gets replaced shaking balance again starting them again. And hell even within 8th ed new codex will not be just fine tuning. GW's style has been seen so often in past 30 years.

tneva82 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
if Gw cant make proper rules/units cost...after a zillion years they developing wh40k.. should be a big hint

I give them a pass when it comes to this, because this is a whole new edition with whole new weight of what is good and what isn't. You really can't go off the metric of cost from 7th, because that's what they did with flamers and now look at how bad flamers are. New system ,new points. They're still working out the kinks, just like we are.

And they won't get anywhere with 8th ed anyway. It will remaing unbalanced and eventually edition gets replaced shaking balance again starting them again. And hell even within 8th ed new codex will not be just fine tuning. GW's style has been seen so often in past 30 years.

maybe a day will come when players will realize that , the fact is we cant stop playing this and say... gw sucks making the rules, cause there are no alternatives and most of us got lot of miniatures (and money spent), so we MUST convince ourselves that Gw will make a good job and say ok... anyway the game will be good, this leave some hope, then 8th edition will finish and another one will come, rinse and repeat, there is nothing to do, impossible to admit Gw will NEVER do a balanced game.

To be fair, I think 8th ed is alot better than 7th ed already.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
To be fair, I think 8th ed is alot better than 7th ed already.

lol wow what a gain.... 7th was total crap compare 8th to it and say oh Lord that's better is silly.

Problem with 7th was codexes. Replace those ala HH and you get edition that beats the crap out of any edition of 40k. Still not perfect but far beyond anything so far in terms of logic, balance and fun.

codex make the edtion not just the rules so 7th----> pure crap.
PS: dont forget things like invisibility or D weapons removing at 6 anything on the table or summoning , that'was not into codex those was BB rules/powers, and sure nothing fun to play against. Did you ever play against a demon with screamers at 2++ rerollable a blob of invisible hard hitters like korne hounds+herald and tons of flying chaarcters summing anything everywhere? that's not inside demon codex (beside screamers at 2++), but was basic book rules, so yes 7th was basically a crap, codex just got thing worse and worse.

setting aside the argument about GW in the Daemons Tactica thread...

So as I mentioned, I've been using defilers for (yes garagehammer) knight crumping with my Slaanesh list - not sure how Slaanesh kills big things. But every time I take a look at the list, more and more Slaanesh daemons get cut, and I want to not do that.

So in your guys's opinions, what's the best "T8 3+" killer available to Slaanesh Daemons, because I've tried Zarakynel + Gribblies and it's a resounding phrrrbt.

 blackmage wrote:
codex make the edtion not just the rules so 7th----> pure crap.
PS: dont forget things like invisibility or D weapons removing at 6 anything on the table or summoning , that'was not into codex those was BB rules/powers, and sure nothing fun to play against. Did you ever play against a demon with screamers at 2++ rerollable a blob of invisible hard hitters like korne hounds+herald and tons of flying chaarcters summing anything everywhere? that's not inside demon codex (beside screamers at 2++), but was basic book rules, so yes 7th was basically a crap, codex just got thing worse and worse.

Yes. Funny thing you complain about codex specific things like 2++ rerollable screamer star when that's codex issue...

And yes invisibility was problem. Of course that's just one spell FW already fixed.

Core rules while not perfect were still light years ahead of 8th ed basic rules. Codex were source of 99% problems. HH proved it already. Replace codexes, 99% goes away, you end up with rules that beat the crap out of 8th in terms of logic, fun and balance. 8th ed can do nothing but weep in comparison.

What is it you guys dislike about the Soul Grinder? Just the points costs? Because I found it okay with disgustingly resilient, also better than the FW Plague Hulk (so much so that I took my Hulk as Soul Grinder).
Just was one game though, but at least it brought down a Riptide nearly on its own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
codex make the edtion not just the rules so 7th----> pure crap.
PS: dont forget things like invisibility or D weapons removing at 6 anything on the table or summoning , that'was not into codex those was BB rules/powers, and sure nothing fun to play against. Did you ever play against a demon with screamers at 2++ rerollable a blob of invisible hard hitters like korne hounds+herald and tons of flying chaarcters summing anything everywhere? that's not inside demon codex (beside screamers at 2++), but was basic book rules, so yes 7th was basically a crap, codex just got thing worse and worse.

Yes. Funny thing you complain about codex specific things like 2++ rerollable screamer star when that's codex issue...

And yes invisibility was problem. Of course that's just one spell FW already fixed.

Core rules while not perfect were still light years ahead of 8th ed basic rules. Codex were source of 99% problems. HH proved it already. Replace codexes, 99% goes away, you end up with rules that beat the crap out of 8th in terms of logic, fun and balance. 8th ed can do nothing but weep in comparison.

With the advent of 8th edition HH basically broke down. At least that's what I see here on Dakka and ebay and seeing the last chance to buy on FW. HH is an okay system despite 7th ed rules, not because of it. Ap system, vehicle rules, movement rules, psychic rules, removing of casualties, CC-phase - these have all been aweful in 7th edition core rules (and have vastly been improved in 8th) and are also in HH, but HH works around some of them with lots of upgrades for vehicles to make them durable, hardly any psykers in the game and 80% of the factions having the same armour.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
What is it you guys dislike about the Soul Grinder? Just the points costs? Because I found it okay with disgustingly resilient, also better than the FW Plague Hulk (so much so that I took my Hulk as Soul Grinder).
Just was one game though, but at least it brought down a Riptide nearly on its own.

I run Slaanesh Daemons, so let's compare:

My Soul Grinder has:
Weapons: Harvester Cannon (kinda meh whatever), Phlegm Cannon (more reliable battlecannon), and essentially identical CC weapons to a defiler with a defiler scourge
Statline: +1 attack over Defiler
Rules: Quicksilver Swiftness, can advance and charge if next to a Slaanesh Daemon character, can be buffed by the medicore Slaanesh psychic powers
Stratagems: Deep strike and Warp Surge (both 2CP for it)

My Defiler has:
Weapons: Reaper Autocannon (kinda meh watever), Battlecannon (phlegm cannon with slightly less reliability but more range) and essentially identical CC weapons if given a scourge
Statline: 1 less attack than a Soul Grinder
Rules: can advance and charge if next to a Slaanesh Daemon character, can be buffed by the amazing CSM psychic powers, including warptime to move and advance twice before charging, and the not-gakky Delightful Agonies (which makes it match Nurgle's Disgustingly Resilient), can be repaired by a Warpsmith/Hellwright, has infernal regeneration, has smoke launchers.
Stratagems: Daemonforge (re-roll everything EVER!), Blasphemous machines (can move and fire if it needs to).

My Soul Grinder is 235, my Defiler is 167. So in other words, I am saving 65 points and losing exactly one attack and Quicksilver Swiftness, while gaining smoke launchers, better buffs from stratagems and psychic powers, and regeneration.

And dont forget you also get HQ buffs like more reroll sources and warpsmith heals.

Plop down Diabolic Strength and it’s out-punching the Soul Grinder, to boot. Comparing Grapefruit and Oranges, sure, but it’s still there. I’m working on a Defiler now - like, glue drying as I type - that’s been in my bits box for like fifteen years for some shophammer.

As for what Slaanesh Daemons, sans kin, have to bring down a Knight... tough call. Can’t even glue a Fiend to it without getting easily stomped. Daemon Prince and seeker horde enveloping them? They can’t step over CAVALRY, and Masque can stand nearby and make them very difficult to stomp away (long as three are left, you can keep it entangled).

If you’re facing a whole army of Knights and can synchronise things well enough, maybe drop in a KoS or two as they get entangled. Not facing shooting or overwatch could make the difference.

If you’re bringing kin, a load of Warp Talons can drop around that Knight with the horrific flame weapon. One unit tags it, you’ve killed overwatch without having to navigate LOS blocking.

I’m not saying these are great solutions... ‘maybe viable’ would be more appropriate.

Yeah, not the best but it does eliminate overwatch. Warp Talons can only drop at 9.1 inches away and so they need to roll a 9 inch charge. Not the best thing you want to rely on.

The more I think about it, the more horrifying the huge Knight with the mega Flamer and harpoon becomes for Daemon armies in general. Even Bloodthirsters are going to be crossing their fingers :/

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
setting aside the argument about GW in the Daemons Tactica thread...

So as I mentioned, I've been using defilers for (yes garagehammer) knight crumping with my Slaanesh list - not sure how Slaanesh kills big things. But every time I take a look at the list, more and more Slaanesh daemons get cut, and I want to not do that.

So in your guys's opinions, what's the best "T8 3+" killer available to Slaanesh Daemons, because I've tried Zarakynel + Gribblies and it's a resounding phrrrbt.

slaanesh daemon princes? Honestly they are my heavy lifters in most lists. They are cheap, characters, and have some decent damage.

I think since the codex, and especially since the most recent FAQ, we are all just hoping for a lot of across the board points reductions in the next balancing update. Not to mention maybe changes to the deep strike beta rules and to the lack of being able to assault on to higher levels of terrain.

I dunno guys.

It's depressing. Every time I relook at my "slaanesh Daemons" list, the fewer and fewer daemon related things are in it.

Soon enough, it'll be a minimum Daemons BN tacked on to a CSM army with a renegade knight or something.

Should I just accept being bad? Lol.

Daemons are a codex without transports, without any real long range shooting, and after the faq, with no real mobility or ability to alpha strike. Thousand sons do smite spam and daemon princes better, and death guard can make much more durable armies, all they need from daemons are nurglings and some flies. When was the last time you saw any of the greater daemons on the table? A footslogging melee army with no mobility or fly is kinda bad, no matter how you look at it.

Yeaaaah, prolly better just accept that they aren't very good at the moment, khorne and slaanesh are both just kinda meh, they don't offer anything to the table csm don't do a lot better.

Damn.I guess now the question is "how bad should the army be"?

Should I just accept it's bad and run what I find fun, or should I throw together a real list and attempt to make it function?

Postulent wrote:
Daemons are a codex without transports, without any real long range shooting, and after the faq, with no real mobility or ability to alpha strike. Thousand sons do smite spam and daemon princes better, and death guard can make much more durable armies, all they need from daemons are nurglings and some flies. When was the last time you saw any of the greater daemons on the table? A footslogging melee army with no mobility or fly is kinda bad, no matter how you look at it.

Yeaaaah, prolly better just accept that they aren't very good at the moment, khorne and slaanesh are both just kinda meh, they don't offer anything to the table csm don't do a lot better.

so explain me why so many Nurgle demons (with average 60-90 pb) doing so well at tournaments, ok they mix with Dg but the core is nurgle demon battalion, demons need to be played a lot to master them. Personally i play Dg+N demons+Ts and last tournament i got 2nd winning all the matches (necrons, tyr, Dg), slaanesh and Korne are crap not whole demon codex


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
setting aside the argument about GW in the Daemons Tactica thread...

So as I mentioned, I've been using defilers for (yes garagehammer) knight crumping with my Slaanesh list - not sure how Slaanesh kills big things. But every time I take a look at the list, more and more Slaanesh daemons get cut, and I want to not do that.

So in your guys's opinions, what's the best "T8 3+" killer available to Slaanesh Daemons, because I've tried Zarakynel + Gribblies and it's a resounding phrrrbt.

slaanesh daemon princes? Honestly they are my heavy lifters in most lists. They are cheap, characters, and have some decent damage.

why play a Sl Dp when you can play a N Dp with locus, he has lot of damage potential, every six to wound mean at least 3 wounds, with virulent blessing means 5 wounds, last tournament my Nurgle Dp got 10 wounds on Hive Tyrant.

 blackmage wrote:

Postulent wrote:
Daemons are a codex without transports, without any real long range shooting, and after the faq, with no real mobility or ability to alpha strike. Thousand sons do smite spam and daemon princes better, and death guard can make much more durable armies, all they need from daemons are nurglings and some flies. When was the last time you saw any of the greater daemons on the table? A footslogging melee army with no mobility or fly is kinda bad, no matter how you look at it.

Yeaaaah, prolly better just accept that they aren't very good at the moment, khorne and slaanesh are both just kinda meh, they don't offer anything to the table csm don't do a lot better.

so explain me why so many Nurgle demons (with average 60-90 pb) doing so well at tournaments, ok they mix with Dg but the core is nurgle demon battalion, demons need to be played a lot to master them. Personally i play Dg+N demons+Ts and last tournament i got 2nd winning all the matches (necrons, tyr, Dg), slaanesh and Korne are crap not whole demon codex


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
setting aside the argument about GW in the Daemons Tactica thread...

So as I mentioned, I've been using defilers for (yes garagehammer) knight crumping with my Slaanesh list - not sure how Slaanesh kills big things. But every time I take a look at the list, more and more Slaanesh daemons get cut, and I want to not do that.

So in your guys's opinions, what's the best "T8 3+" killer available to Slaanesh Daemons, because I've tried Zarakynel + Gribblies and it's a resounding phrrrbt.

slaanesh daemon princes? Honestly they are my heavy lifters in most lists. They are cheap, characters, and have some decent damage.

why play a Sl Dp when you can play a N Dp with locus, he has lot of damage potential, every six to wound mean at least 3 wounds, with virulent blessing means 5 wounds, last tournament my Nurgle Dp got 10 wounds on Hive Tyrant.

Oh, good point, I forgot that nurgle daemon princes were available in mono slaanesh armies.

if you play monoSl you cant complain why you lost, slaanesh is the worst Demon God, that's why i said that

 blackmage wrote:

Postulent wrote:
Daemons are a codex without transports, without any real long range shooting, and after the faq, with no real mobility or ability to alpha strike. Thousand sons do smite spam and daemon princes better, and death guard can make much more durable armies, all they need from daemons are nurglings and some flies. When was the last time you saw any of the greater daemons on the table? A footslogging melee army with no mobility or fly is kinda bad, no matter how you look at it.

Yeaaaah, prolly better just accept that they aren't very good at the moment, khorne and slaanesh are both just kinda meh, they don't offer anything to the table csm don't do a lot better.

so explain me why so many Nurgle demons (with average 60-90 pb) doing so well at tournaments, ok they mix with Dg but the core is nurgle demon battalion, demons need to be played a lot to master them. Personally i play Dg+N demons+Ts and last tournament i got 2nd winning all the matches (necrons, tyr, Dg), slaanesh and Korne are crap not whole demon codex


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
setting aside the argument about GW in the Daemons Tactica thread...

So as I mentioned, I've been using defilers for (yes garagehammer) knight crumping with my Slaanesh list - not sure how Slaanesh kills big things. But every time I take a look at the list, more and more Slaanesh daemons get cut, and I want to not do that.

So in your guys's opinions, what's the best "T8 3+" killer available to Slaanesh Daemons, because I've tried Zarakynel + Gribblies and it's a resounding phrrrbt.

slaanesh daemon princes? Honestly they are my heavy lifters in most lists. They are cheap, characters, and have some decent damage.

why play a Sl Dp when you can play a N Dp with locus, he has lot of damage potential, every six to wound mean at least 3 wounds, with virulent blessing means 5 wounds, last tournament my Nurgle Dp got 10 wounds on Hive Tyrant.

I think the issue is a few units are very good (Nurglings, Plague Bearers, Bloodletter bomb , Daemon Princes, Heralds of Nurgle) some are ok (most of Tzeentch) but the rest are really not. As someone said above, when was the last time you saw a greater daemon? most things Slannesh?

I personally dislike playing the same units all the time and have most outside Slannesh, but frequently I find it difficult to find synergy between many of the units. Just revewing our stratagems last night and there really bland outside of the obvious ones. Definitely a missed opportunity there imho.