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I have found slaanesh works incredibly well in the right list. Monon slaanesh in 1 detachment, mono emporers children in next, and finish with tzeentch patrol detachment. Make tzeentch a lord of change with his robe and the strat for 2++ save, run forward with noise marines laying down support fire, dp of slaanesh getting a good chance at a t1 assault if you do it right. But just flat mono slaanesh at the moment is a fluffy army, but not really competitive.

So, horrors.

Recently I found myself running a few minimal squads as minimal size to fill tzeentch battalions for my TS.

I found myself running a mix of pink squads and brime squads at minimal numbers and a thought occurred.

Should I run them in mixed 5pink/5brime squads instead?

How do people like spined choas beasts from the forgeworld index? They seem to be a really good for the point cost.

 BoomWolf wrote:
So, horrors.

Recently I found myself running a few minimal squads as minimal size to fill tzeentch battalions for my TS.

I found myself running a mix of pink squads and brime squads at minimal numbers and a thought occurred.

Should I run them in mixed 5pink/5brime squads instead?

horrors are made to shoot, so maximize unit size, if you want run minimal squads to fill troop requirement use brimstone only.

Apologies if this has been covered earlier in the thread. I'm looking at entering a tournament which uses Power Levels rather then Points and was hoping to use this to my advantage following the points nerf of various Daemon units.

Current list on which I'd appreciate your thoughts. (I realise this is cheese but it is a tournament):

Super Heavy Detachment-

Aetaos'rau'keres (35 PL)
Magnus (23 PL)
Mortarion (24 PL)

Battalion Detachment-
DP (Tzeentch), wings, talons (9 PL)
Changling (5 PL)

10 Pink Horrors x 3 (4x3 PL= 12 PL)

Burning Chariot x 2 (2x6 PL= 12 PL)

Total- 120 PL

I do have a number of khorne units I could put in (maybe 30 Bloodletters rather than the chariots), or could cut down on the LoW and take 2 Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachments instead? I suppose the main question is: has anyone had much experience of running Magnus, Morty and Big Bird in the same list?

Also as a side question- this comes out as 3155 points for 120 power level. As points are probably a better guide what's the most points you can see squeezed into 120 PL?

3155pts is just for narrative play no one would play a matched with all those points.

That sort of goes to the point I'm making about PL vs points. In this instance 120 power equals 3155 points, mainly due to the ridiculous points increase to Aetaos in chapter approved. So on the current list I will be playing matched play with all those points at an official GW tournament at warhammer world.

I'm Sparticus wrote:
Apologies if this has been covered earlier in the thread. I'm looking at entering a tournament which uses Power Levels rather then Points and was hoping to use this to my advantage following the points nerf of various Daemon units.

Current list on which I'd appreciate your thoughts. (I realise this is cheese but it is a tournament):

Super Heavy Detachment-

Aetaos'rau'keres (35 PL)
Magnus (23 PL)
Mortarion (24 PL)

Battalion Detachment-
DP (Tzeentch), wings, talons (9 PL)
Changling (5 PL)

10 Pink Horrors x 3 (4x3 PL= 12 PL)

Burning Chariot x 2 (2x6 PL= 12 PL)

Total- 120 PL

I do have a number of khorne units I could put in (maybe 30 Bloodletters rather than the chariots), or could cut down on the LoW and take 2 Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachments instead? I suppose the main question is: has anyone had much experience of running Magnus, Morty and Big Bird in the same list?

Also as a side question- this comes out as 3155 points for 120 power level. As points are probably a better guide what's the most points you can see squeezed into 120 PL?

Sorry to burst the bubble here, but Magnus, Mort, and ARK can’t go in the same battle-forged detachment. They don’t have a common keyword that’s not CHAOS, IMPERIUM, TYRANID, AELDARI or YNNARI.

A perfect example of why no one should ever play with PL. Just play narrative at that point.

Anyways, going to be building up my Tzeentch demons and I'm curious if anyone can provide strong reasoning for take a burning chariot over an exalted flamer? Losing the character status just seems so risky m

As for squeezing points into power levels: not easy, with a Daemons army. This usually comes from equipment options (for instance, always a twin Lascannon over a budget peashooter), and rounding errors. In the Slaanesh Daemonkin list I’m working on now, I noticed that my Herald on Steed and three Fiends came out modestly above the rough 1:20 upper ratio, but then Fiends are overpriced for what they do so that’s not really helpful.

Really, when you make a high points low power list, you’re taking the upmarket options - like the aforementioned Lascannons - that your power level pays for anyway. With largely option-less Daemons, there’s little creative accountancy to be done save for taking as many banners and instruments as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
...going to be building up my Tzeentch demons and I'm curious if anyone can provide strong reasoning for take a burning chariot over an exalted flamer? Losing the character status just seems so risky m

- the reach on your blue fire goes from 28” to 32”, which isn’t bad - makes it harder for opponent to protect a key target on turn one
- the reach on your pink fire goes from 22” to 26”, which on a Pistol (that can’t Advance and shoot) means a turn one poke at an infantry unit, not that this is any use beyond giving it a participation medal when your opponent successfully bubble wraps their big stuff away from it
- it can bite things in melee - not that this is worth 30pts on a gun platform, but it’s got such a short range you’re certainly going to receive a charge now and then
- it can help fill out a Spearhead - not that you’ll likely want two Soulgrinders, but with a fixed S a couple of Skull Cannons could be barracked with it. Or some Mutaliths or Tzeentch CSM tanks/daemon engines that don’t want a LEGION perk anyway
- there’s a Sigmar formation that uses it
- erm...
- that’s it

lindsay40k wrote:

I'm Sparticus wrote:
Apologies if this has been covered earlier in the thread. I'm looking at entering a tournament which uses Power Levels rather then Points and was hoping to use this to my advantage following the points nerf of various Daemon units.

Current list on which I'd appreciate your thoughts. (I realise this is cheese but it is a tournament):

Super Heavy Detachment-

Aetaos'rau'keres (35 PL)
Magnus (23 PL)
Mortarion (24 PL)

Battalion Detachment-
DP (Tzeentch), wings, talons (9 PL)
Changling (5 PL)

10 Pink Horrors x 3 (4x3 PL= 12 PL)

Burning Chariot x 2 (2x6 PL= 12 PL)

Total- 120 PL

I do have a number of khorne units I could put in (maybe 30 Bloodletters rather than the chariots), or could cut down on the LoW and take 2 Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachments instead? I suppose the main question is: has anyone had much experience of running Magnus, Morty and Big Bird in the same list?

Also as a side question- this comes out as 3155 points for 120 power level. As points are probably a better guide what's the most points you can see squeezed into 120 PL?

Sorry to burst the bubble here, but Magnus, Mort, and ARK can’t go in the same battle-forged detachment. They don’t have a common keyword that’s not CHAOS, IMPERIUM, TYRANID, AELDARI or YNNARI.

They all share the Chaos keyword so can go in the same battle-forged detachment unless I'm missing something?

lindsay40k wrote:As for squeezing points into power levels: not easy, with a Daemons army. This usually comes from equipment options (for instance, always a twin Lascannon over a budget peashooter), and rounding errors. In the Slaanesh Daemonkin list I’m working on now, I noticed that my Herald on Steed and three Fiends came out modestly above the rough 1:20 upper ratio, but then Fiends are overpriced for what they do so that’s not really helpful.

Really, when you make a high points low power list, you’re taking the upmarket options - like the aforementioned Lascannons - that your power level pays for anyway. With largely option-less Daemons, there’s little creative accountancy to be done save for taking as many banners and instruments as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
...going to be building up my Tzeentch demons and I'm curious if anyone can provide strong reasoning for take a burning chariot over an exalted flamer? Losing the character status just seems so risky m

- the reach on your blue fire goes from 28” to 32”, which isn’t bad - makes it harder for opponent to protect a key target on turn one
- the reach on your pink fire goes from 22” to 26”, which on a Pistol (that can’t Advance and shoot) means a turn one poke at an infantry unit, not that this is any use beyond giving it a participation medal when your opponent successfully bubble wraps their big stuff away from it
- it can bite things in melee - not that this is worth 30pts on a gun platform, but it’s got such a short range you’re certainly going to receive a charge now and then
- it can help fill out a Spearhead - not that you’ll likely want two Soulgrinders, but with a fixed S a couple of Skull Cannons could be barracked with it. Or some Mutaliths or Tzeentch CSM tanks/daemon engines that don’t want a LEGION perk anyway
- there’s a Sigmar formation that uses it
- erm...
- that’s it

I would normally very much agree but with this specific list I don't have much of a shield (30 horrors), don't have much to shield in that all the big guys can be hit anyway and suspect my big problem will be mobility and support for the big guys, and claiming objectives which I'll have to use the horrors for so any shield I had will disappear pretty quickly.

The additional mobility and durability of the chariot over the exalted flamer is why I put them in this list.

Re keywords and battle forged: in the early 2018 big FAQ, CHAOS was amongst the ‘broad alliance’ faction keywords that was disallowed as a detachment keyword. So, you can have a TZEENTCH detachment of Magnus, ARK and, say, a Black Legion Spartan with a MoT, or a HERETIC ASTARTES detachment of Magnus, Mortarion, and a World Eaters Lord of Skulls, or a DAEMON detachment containing all four giant FW Greater Daemons (note also that the FAQs have edited whether DAEMON is a Faction or general keyword for a lot of stuff - no cheeky Obliterators in a DAEMON Detachment any more), but not a CHAOS soup detachment.

Similarly, you won’t face a detachment containing Marneus Calgar, Commissar Yarrick, and Inquisitor Greyfax. Or Eldrad Ulthuan, Asdrubael Vecht, and the Avatar of Saim-Hann.

There’s also a recommendation to TO’s on restricting the number of times you can take each datasheet, and the number of detachments, but that doesn’t affect your list.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/warhammer_40000_The_Big_FAQ_1_2018_en.pdf

Clearly missed that. Thanks. That's put that list to bed then

Obliterators can still be in the same detachment as Daemons as long as they share the same God keyword.

Ie they all have to be Khorne or Nurgle, etc.

but you lost all detachment bonus+stratagems cause it is not a DEMON detachment

With IK disrupting the meta, most agree Tau and D/Eldar stocks raise since they are good counters. However, I think demons may be a dark horse in anti-IK woith some good combos and choices. Plus, the amount of MWs that can be put out is a great counter. I'm also liking a few exalted flamers.

They have two good DP options with relics. Those being the Skullreaver Khorne DP and the corruption equipped nurgle DP with virulent blessing.

They also have some neat tricks since most knights will be made characters to access their own sweet relics. The forbidden gem will flull stop a knight which is crazy powerful. Kharnak, oddly, can do some work against a caharacter knight as well.

Any others I'm missing?

forbidden gem really? once per game and roll against D9 works 25% ot times only and last only 1 single phase? Karanak 4 attacks which wounds on 4+ (average 4 wounds if he didn't save any), seriously you need to read better codex demons, the only real counter they have is mortal wounds and Dp's spam one with Skullreaver and one with corruption the rest with double talons great with virulent blessing+nurgle locus, or plaguebearers spam 60-90 of them and hardly IK's can deal with all those 5++/5+++ -1 to hit bodies.

 blackmage wrote:
forbidden gem really? once per game and roll against D9 works 25% ot times only and last only 1 single phase? Karanak 4 attacks which wounds on 4+ (average 4 wounds if he didn't save any), seriously you need to read better codex demons, the only real counter they have is mortal wounds and Dp's spam one with Skullreaver and one with corruption the rest with double talons great with virulent blessing+nurgle locus, or plaguebearers spam 60-90 of them and hardly IK's can deal with all those 5++/5+++ -1 to hit bodies.

I've been crushing Knights with my Slaanesh Daemons, actually, provided I don't die before I get to grips with them.

1) The Forbidden Gem rolls a 3d6, on which the average is 10.5, so it stops a knight in its tracks well over 50% of the time, not 25% of the time. This can have ripple effects as well; Knights cannot fire while locked in combat (they must Fall Back first), and so shutting one down during the Movement Phase while it is in combat also indirectly shuts it down in the Shooting Phase as well. If it is in combat with Slaanesh Daemons, this means Quicksilver Swiftness kicks in and they get to attack it first even in the enemy's turn, meaning it could likely die before it even gets to swing, shutting it out of the Fight Phase. This is amazingly powerful and I've used it more than once.

2) Zarakynel is hilarious at murdering Knights. She's not amazing at it for her points, but since she can't be shot while they're locked with her, and they can be locked in combat for a whole variety of reasons (everything from Fiends that snuck by without getting killed to the aforementioned Forbidden Gem) then she's guaranteed to get 3 rounds of combat in on a Knight, doing 9 wounds a round on average, before being released to charge again. Usually, this is the round where she charges, then the enemy's next turn since they're locked up, then my Psychic Phase (since I have enough heralds to throw Hysterical Frenzy) on one, leaving the enemy with a slain Knight and Zarakynel free to charge in my next Charge Phase.

3) Daemonettes are actually surprisingly good against Knights. Knights lack an invuln in combat, meaning the wounding-on-6s' Daemonettes outright ignore their saves. 20 Daemonettes usually make it in after one of my characters (Daemon Prince or Zarakynel) and get a whopping 61 attacks - if the Masque is there, they hit on 2s re-rolling 1s, missing likely 1-2 of the attacks, and then the Daemonettes wound on 6s, doing something like 10 wounds to the Knight.

are you talking of competitive lists? I never seen 1 single slaanesh list around
Pretty better bloodletters than demonettes, they have ap -3 and str 5 in charge so they wound basically at 5+ and at 6+ they deal 2 wounds, 61 attacks at 2+ re rolling 1's wounding on 5+ put out lot of wounds if you have 3 cp's to spend they fight another round they are pretty killy, Korne Dp's with skullreaver and legendary fighter can almost single kill an Ik, alreday tested for incoming ETC event.
Btw speaking about competitive i would never use an artefact who work more or less 50% times and only in 1 phase, btw a pure Slaanesh list might do well against Ik's

 blackmage wrote:
are you talking of competitive lists? I never seen 1 single slaanesh list around
Pretty better bloodletters than demonettes, they have ap -3 and str 5 in charge so they wound basically at 5+ and at 6+ they deal 2 wounds, 61 attacks at 2+ re rolling 1's wounding on 5+ put out lot of wounds if you have 3 cp's to spend they fight another round they are pretty killy, Korne Dp's with skullreaver and legendary fighter can almost single kill an Ik, alreday tested for incoming ETC event.
Btw speaking about competitive i would never use an artefact who work more or less 50% times and only in 1 phase, btw a pure Slaanesh list might do well against Ik's

Yes, I am talking about NOVA Practice lists.

Problem with Khorne isn't that they can't kill the knights, but rather that they can't keep them locked up to save their skins from shooting. Knights aren't exactly "durable" but they hit like a truck, and being able to lock them in combat (and therefore shut down their Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases) is absolutely critical.

Secondly, without Quicksilver Swiftness, even if they did lock the knights up, it's not helpful. Death Grip stratagem gets played after a Knight swings, so if you are still in combat with a Knight with a Str 6 or 7 or less character/monster on his turn, expect that character to die a horrible, agonizing death as he is slowly crushed. Quicksilver Swiftness means that the knight doesn't get a chance to swing - I've not been death-gripped once with Str 7 (without melee weapons) Zarakynel despite being locked in combat for multiple rounds, simply because she can blenderize a knight so easily before it swings, regardless of whose turn it is, unless it charges her (which, considering she moves 16" minimum, means it's my fault if that happens).

if you go at NOVA with a monoslaanesh im very curious to know how you do, im unsure how you can be competitive against other armies, btw im not playtesting slaanesh so i cant get the whole picture, what i know right now unless i m building a list for team tournament i will not play slaanesh, it's too fragile against most of top armies.
Testing bl+skullreaver Dp i can take care of 2 knights maybe i dont kill both but i degrade them enough to make them almost harmless, hitting on 5+ is not much threating for my list, next turn they MUST take care of both Dp and 30 Bl and with 1 less knight and another one heavily degraded is not that easy, if they kill them, the rest of army (3 more Dp's 60 Pb )are ready to strike or have most objectives in their hands, 3 Dp's usually take down another Knight, is not an easy game but you have the tools to win.

What do we reckon to Be’lakor, these days? Some nice melee output, access to Death Hex sans Heretic Astartes, must be in a Daemons detachment - that doesn’t get Loci.

Be'lakor still stinks, just doesnt mesh well in a pure deamon list. Nothing has changed there.

I am slowly working on a Slaanesh force for local tournament play because of some of the points brought out lately plus my own findings a few pages ago when i crushed a "competitive list" wholesale with a pure random deamon list. I found deamonettes do well when you are moving at break neck paces at an opponent getting t1 assaults off even after the rule changes. I plan on allying in emporers children to get full support for slaanesh. I like the idea of the gem getting use, i will have to try that.

Azuza001 wrote:
Be'lakor still stinks, just doesnt mesh well in a pure deamon list. Nothing has changed there.

I am slowly working on a Slaanesh force for local tournament play because of some of the points brought out lately plus my own findings a few pages ago when i crushed a "competitive list" wholesale with a pure random deamon list. I found deamonettes do well when you are moving at break neck paces at an opponent getting t1 assaults off even after the rule changes. I plan on allying in emporers children to get full support for slaanesh. I like the idea of the gem getting use, i will have to try that.

Slaanesh is a great God, pity it is the weakest i have lot of slaanesh in my collection but absolutely unplayable in competitive, and im intersted ONLY in competitive.

Here is my tactical theory, if anyone has better ideas i am open to them.

Use deamons of slaansesh like this

Herald on steed for speed and ability to get the bonus to other fast units. Masque because its freaking awsome. 3 squads of 10 demmonettes because they are small enough to not be a huge threat and can put out some decent wounds and fast enough to be a part of the 2nd wave. 5 seekers for hopeful t1 charge.

Chaos marines - 2 deamon princes of slaanesh with wings and talons, one with elixer. A biker sorcerer with warp time and prescience for help. 3 squads of 10 noise marines, each squad with 2 blastmasters and 8 sonic blasters. Fast moving fire support.

Thousand sons - patrol detachment with deamon prince of tzeentch, dark matter crystal, aetherstride, and talons. Large blob of tzaangors.

This gives 13 cp before artifacts or other things, should be enough to get what we want. Turn 1 everything moves up and advances into range. Dark matter crystal moves tzaangors into range for charge, then warp time to get deamon prince of tzeentch into range of charge. Dp tzeentch casts gaze of fate. Now they charge, between the gaze of fate and the cp reroll they should get in, hopefully seekers get in as well. 2nd turn that should leave 2 dp of slaanesh, the masque, and anything else left alive charging in and making life difficult for the enemy. Thoughts welcomed before i go and get more noise marines to try this, i already have the rest.

problem is... against a decent list you risk to charge chaffs with your 1st wave, then get obliterated, dont count you rely on 9" charges you could not get, 30 noise are a good fire base, i just think about some common lists around and not sure if can work, in particular if you dont get 1st turn. 1st turn charge isn't always a great option most depend what you are facing, if you cant clean up enough chaffs a 1st turn charge brings nothing to you, for example a common demon list play 90 Pb, you have no way to clear a path to valuable targets and when he retaliate you lost tons of model and probably the game, if you delay charge trying to win with obiective slaanesh is so weak (low T and just a 5++ save), this is just an example, btw all imho i never faced a mono slaanesh in 8th edition so i might be wrong of course, btw 30 noise marines rocks

A load of Noise Marines and Sorcerers is about as much of a Daemons of Slaanesh list and Yvraine and the Yncarne are a Drukhari list

Don’t get me wrong, I’ll play that - I’m a Word Bearer fluff player, I’m still trying to make Summoning work - but it’s not moving things forwards for Daemon purists :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: how are Daemonettes reliably getting T1 charges? 7” move, 2” from banner, that leaves 15” to cover with 3D6? Unless you go second and your opponent chooses to move closer to a horde of trainee genestealers? I’m experimenting with a Fiends list that stops people falling back from a Warptimed beatstick, and I need to throw a lot of units out there to make contact

I've found in my experience that Flesh Hounds are pretty fun against Knights. They aren't infantry so Knights can't do diddly once locked in with them, and their biker base means that they can easily surround a knight, especially positioned correctly with their high movement.

Another good option is oddly enough, the great axe bloodthirster. Give it the +1 invuln and spend 2 CP to pump it to 3++ save, and you'd be suprised how much fire power they'll load into that thing just to take it down, ignoring all your other threats.

 vaklor4 wrote:
I've found in my experience that Flesh Hounds are pretty fun against Knights. They aren't infantry so Knights can't do diddly once locked in with them, and their biker base means that they can easily surround a knight, especially positioned correctly with their high movement.

Another good option is oddly enough, the great axe bloodthirster. Give it the +1 invuln and spend 2 CP to pump it to 3++ save, and you'd be suprised how much fire power they'll load into that thing just to take it down, ignoring all your other threats.

yes IF you think to face lot of IK's they are decent choice, just bothering keep BT in AiP and spend two extra cp's and then hope in a 9" charge, keep it on table against IK is hazardous regardless of 3++.I still prefer skullreave dp with legendary fighter warlord trait it cant be targeted and damage output is identical if not better, considering the mortal wounds it can deliver

 lindsay40k wrote:
A load of Noise Marines and Sorcerers is about as much of a Daemons of Slaanesh list and Yvraine and the Yncarne are a Drukhari list

Don’t get me wrong, I’ll play that - I’m a Word Bearer fluff player, I’m still trying to make Summoning work - but it’s not moving things forwards for Daemon purists :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: how are Daemonettes reliably getting T1 charges? 7” move, 2” from banner, that leaves 15” to cover with 3D6? Unless you go second and your opponent chooses to move closer to a horde of trainee genestealers? I’m experimenting with a Fiends list that stops people falling back from a Warptimed beatstick, and I need to throw a lot of units out there to make contact

The t1 charge is done by the tzeentch units and the seekers. Seekers move 14"+d6 and get 2d6 charge, if your lucky they will be in t1, if not t2 unless they take fire, at which point they are decently cheap so eh. Tzaangors get an 8" charge with bryhorn and the dark matter move them t1 outside 9", 8" charge with access to rerolls is pretty easy to do. The deamon prince of tzeentch as well has an amazingly easy chance to get t1 charge. Moves 12"+d6, warptime x2 that, aetherstride allows charge after advance and reroll failed charge. Thats minimum move of 26", maximum 32", with reroll 2d6 after, he is getting in.

Its t2 that the slaanesh deamons come into play. Assuming the tzaangors and dp of t get in and kill their target they have a great chance to get blown away, it probably will happen. But after the opponent waists shots on them how many shots will be left for the deamonettes and dp of slaanesh? Not enough is the key idea.