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Hello,

So I have been working on a Chaos list for quite some time that is still always evolving and changing. This month I have three tournaments across consecutive weekends and I'm planning on bringing Chaos so I hope to get feedback on what I have.

Warning: This post will be very long as I have been through many revisions of this list and feel the need to explain my choices in order to receive more accurate feedback.

Chaos Undivided

Battalion Detachment

Abaddon (Warlord)
Sorcerer w/ Jump Pack, Force Sword, The Eye of Night, MoT [Death Hex, Prescience]

40 Cultists w/ MoS
40 Cultists w/ MoS
40 Cultists w/ MoS

3 Obliterators w/ MoS
3 Obliterators w/ MoS
3 Obliterators w/ MoS

Supreme Command Detachment

Malefic Lord [Creeping Terror & Warp Flux]
Malefic Lord [Creeping Terror & Warp Flux]
Malefic Lord [Creeping Terror & Warp Flux]
Malefic Lord [Creeping Terror & Warp Flux]
Malefic Lord [Creeping Terror & Warp Flux]

Battalion Detachment

The Changeling [Treason of Tzeentch]
Malefic Lord [Creeping Terror & Warp Flux]

10 Brimstone Horrors
9 Brimstone Horrors and 1 Blue Horror
9 Brimstone Horrors and 1 Blue Horror

3 Obliterators w/ MoS

2000/2000 Points | 12 Command Points



"Why Not Run X?"

Mortarion

I have tested Mortarion, watched a lot of games with him, and overall I find him severely wanting. Morty needs Warptime reliably but cannot provide it, he does nothing for his army other than kill models, and his non-melee offensive output is not the best. Nurgle has several good offensive Psychic Powers but Morty always has to use one of two casts on -1 to Hit. His Aura is unreliable and not too hard to play around, also it degrades with him. The gun was once a selling point but now with the nerf to Commissars it's not going to be one rounding any Characters and it's very difficult to get multiple shots to hit things like Primaris Psykers/Malefic Lords/etc. Also when Morty gets tied up his gun becomes not that great and he wants to be tied up as much as possible. Lastly the competitive meta is very alpha/beta strike focused and Smite heavy right now both of which are heavy threats to Mortarion. For these reasons he stays on the shelf.

Magnus

Big Red has been in every version of the list except this one. While he is significantly better than Mortarion the issue remains that he is a huge target like his brother for being hit Turn 1 and both are also huge Kingslayer targets. Also like Mortarion Magnus is extremely reliant on Psychic Buffs which are very dicey as people add more Psychic Defense to top end lists and a trend of Deny the Witch buffs is hitting with Eldar and soon to be Tyranids. Magnus is also very vulnerable to Smite which is a big part of many lists right now meaning he cannot do his work without risking this. Overall I rate Magnus very highly but with the ITC Missions making big targets a drawback and the game starting to curve back against Psyker spam these things hurt his production.

A Knight

This is the other entry I get asked a lot but it's the simplest one. Knights are not strong right now both in ITC Missions and in regular play. Chaos Knights, while having good guns, cannot be buffed or repaired which makes them a perfect target for big guns. Knights can work in an all big target army but that is not this list nor do I think extremely elite lists are good in ITC Missions which require holding Objectives.



List Breakdown
The goal of this army overall is resilience. My intent is to give only the Cultists as targets which "waste" shots from more powerful guns while also being immune to Morale from Abaddon and able to be recycled via Command Points. These then protect my many Characters who make up a lot of the offense, mostly via Smite, but also solid counter-punch with Abaddon. From an attrition perspective I hope to deny my opponent choices while giving myself choices on what to kill so that I can best remove threats. In that vein I've done with a lot of Obliterators as my anti-tank, these mesh well with Abaddon when needed but more importantly can all Deep Strike which means they get to do damage before retaliation. I've found Oblits to be one of the better Chaos big guns along with Plagueburst Crawlers although I don't want to have a static presence that can be hit first, as resilient as PBCs are.

Most of the army revolves around Abaddon, he makes the Cultists not run and also makes them very accurate which pairs well with Veterans of the Long War and Endless Cacophony, same for the Obliterators. While not the best combatant in the game he is good for bailing out the Cultists from Combat while more terrifying targets are left more to Smites. The Cultists themselves are my chaff killers which enables Smite to then start hitting meaningful targets as well as lets me shoot opposing Characters. For armies that don't have chaff their volume of fire still works well against MEQ and even Tanks when Strategems are used. This makes them useful in every game which is important since I am putting a lot of resources into them. I've also purposefully made my Battalion Chaos Space Marines only to get Objective Secured, this is something that might not be necessary since I already have so many models but going against opposing ObSec is worrying with how many points are up for grabs in the ITC Missions. Also the Sorcerer gives me access to the Chaos Lore which is probably Top 2 in the game but turning him into 3 Malefic Lords is likely the more powerful option.

Focusing on the Sorcerer he has a Jump Pack to get into range with Death Hex on Turn 1, this matters against AdMech (Robots) and some other niche situations but it justified the points to me. He has MoT to cast another Power if needed and since nothing else was really worth taking as far as Marks go. I also gave him The Eye of Night, which is trash, but this army has no good Relic holder at this time and I figured having d3 on demand wounds to a Vehicle is better than the alternatives. If/when Malefic Lords are nerfed they're likely to turn into a Lord with the Khorne Axe of the Slaanesh Vial.

Finally I have the other Battalion. This was taken for a few reasons, one is to get more Command Points. Chaos is very thirsty for Command Points with some of the best Strategems currently in the game so the upgrade from another +1 Detachment made sense. Also I need a way to hold my backfield, in playtesting I often had to leave one Cultist unit back to protect against Deep Strike and Fliers which meant they couldn't contribute right away. Having Horrors covers that and also gives me units that can hold out of the way Objectives at no cost to my offense. The Changeling is to keep them from getting shot up, however he adds very little extra power and I'm strongly considering turning him into 2 Malefic Lords and some upgrades. As is he runs Treason of Tzeentch, really all the Tzeentch Demon Powers are awful but this one at least can try to run a Primaris Psyker/Malefic Lord into a friendly unit to be clubbed to death.



Weaknesses

My primary fears for this list are armies that can scythe through about half the Cultists in one turn. That list is made up of IG/AdMech as other armies are unlikely to bring that much anti-Infantry especially in the face of a Commissar nerf. Other problems are anti-Psyker to either armies with a lot of Psykers themselves which just becomes a dice off but especially any Imperial army with 1-2 Culexus Assassins. Right now Imperial Soup armies that go heavy on Psykers with some Assassins seem like top dog on the power curve so I don't put too much mental energy into what I can do to beat those list variants. Another weakness is a Flier or Tank heavy army, the former because it'll be difficult to damage them and the latter because I don't have the resources to beat down a fully Mechanized list. In both Scenarios I'm likely to rely on my much better Scenario presence and try to tie things up if they're on the ground with Warptime, Deep Strike, Tide of Traitors, and so on.



Possible Revisions

Without changing the core of the army, which I'm not opposed to, the two more obvious changes are Changeling ---> Malefic Lords/Points and Sorcerer ---> Malefic Lords/Points/Chaos Lord/Demon Prince. I'm inclined to keep the Sorcerer for now, he's a solid toolbox with Death Hex countering a lot of the boogeymen right now (Celestine, Magnus, Mortarion, Guilliman), Prescience countering the never-ending tide of -1 to Hit (Eldar!) and Warptime opening up fun tricks. Keeping the Battalion Black Legion retains ObSec as I said and also gives me the ability to Advance and Shoot which in playtesting looked to be trash but is actually very powerful against gunlines. The Changeling is a much easier heave ho, he pairs well with Horrors AND Magnus but feels like a lot of points with only one of those selections. Also since I am packing so much Infantry my Horrors are unlikely to get shot until late game when they can probably survive off the 4++ and LoS. Overall swapping him out would net me one more Smite/Deny the Witch and leave 40pts to do...something.



So that's all I have for now, please feel free to question this list as it is meant to go against everything and anything. Obviously it's not possible to have every matchup covered but I'm trying to give myself as many tools as I can with a nod towards Scenario as the emergency button.

I really like it. I'm pretty new to 8th, but seems to cover a lot of the "common" things you see. Also, not relying on Magnus or Mort seems like a keen idea, because everyone preps for those two.

This list looks air tight to me. I don't think I would change a thing. Your identified weaknesses are quite accurate, but I don't think there is a whole lot you can do about it.

I would run with exactly what you have posted here.

Manfried wrote:
This list looks air tight to me. I don't think I would change a thing. Your identified weaknesses are quite accurate, but I don't think there is a whole lot you can do about it.

I would run with exactly what you have posted here.

I'm going to play a test game tonight w/o Changeling but up 3 Malefic Lords, a Blue Horror, and some random upgrades. After further consideration I wasn't feeling him and I think I can live without ObSec or Advance + Shoot. But we'll see. :]

The list looks good, and you’ve clearly thought it through. My only concern is you’re weak vs imperial Soup lists, which at tournaments is the most common strongest list at the moment. I don’t know what your meta is like, but going off the general meta, imperial Soup is very common. I might be wrong, but when writing your reasons for the choices in your list, you seem to be expecting to play against a mix of armies including armies like necrons, orks, and others. Again I might be wrong for your case, but typically at a tournament you’ll play against at least 2 imperial Soup lists, probably 3.

It’s always great to see a list that’s not a net list. If you want to build an anti-meta list, something to have in your mind, is what am I likely to be facing at this event, and the current answer is imperial and chaos Soup lists. Also please don’t ask me how I can improve the list or tailor it, cos I really don’t. But good luck nonetheless.

Looks like a strong list. Your explanation about Primarchs and IKs makes sense. I'd leave it as it is as you are already comfortable with it. Good luck!

Minimanj wrote:
The list looks good, and you’ve clearly thought it through. My only concern is you’re weak vs imperial Soup lists, which at tournaments is the most common strongest list at the moment. I don’t know what your meta is like, but going off the general meta, imperial Soup is very common. I might be wrong, but when writing your reasons for the choices in your list, you seem to be expecting to play against a mix of armies including armies like necrons, orks, and others. Again I might be wrong for your case, but typically at a tournament you’ll play against at least 2 imperial Soup lists, probably 3.

It’s always great to see a list that’s not a net list. If you want to build an anti-meta list, something to have in your mind, is what am I likely to be facing at this event, and the current answer is imperial and chaos Soup lists. Also please don’t ask me how I can improve the list or tailor it, cos I really don’t. But good luck nonetheless.

No you're 100% right, as I mentioned in the weaknesses Imperial Soup has all the tools to ruin me. The issue is I don't think Chaos can beat Imperial Soup, at least not a properly assembled one. Chaos is crutching hard on Malefic Lords right now, when those get fixed and Magnus gets a points bump I think Chaos is pretty back into the field with most other armies. Which would be a good thing! But Imperial Soup has zero weaknesses. They do Smite Spam almost as well but their Psychic Defense is the best in the game with Assassins and -2 to Deny the Witch also makes your powers very unreliable. They can do Tanks or Infantry and still have one of the best screens going. The list that won the San Diego Open is a strong template for that kind of army.

Would it be possible to beat Imperial Soup if you tailored for it? Probably. But honestly in my meta I don't think anyone plays it and I'm comfortable losing to the SS Tier army. Honestly my hope is Imperium wins every event until GW realizes you shouldn't be able to mix everything Imperium can take without any consequences but that's another discussion. :]

Really like the look of this list. Are the cultists armed with autoguns? I take it MoS on them is for the stratagem?

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Really like the look of this list. Are the cultists armed with autoguns? I take it MoS on them is for the stratagem?

Yes, that is their only weapon option. And yes, there's no other mark that does anything for them unfortunately although double tapping with them is rare.

The list managed to get First Place at the first event, off to a good start.

is this pretty much the list that came 5th at SoCal?

BlastaRasta wrote:
is this pretty much the list that came 5th at SoCal?

No idea, do you have a link? The only lists I know from SoCal are my local players, the Soup army that got first, and the guy who got DQ'd.

I don't but ive been looking for it - I thought you had found it

all I heard was that it was 5 squads of oblits (I note you have 4) so I imagine your not too far off a pretty solid list

BlastaRasta wrote:
I don't but ive been looking for it - I thought you had found it

all I heard was that it was 5 squads of oblits (I note you have 4) so I imagine your not too far off a pretty solid list

Ah gotcha. Yeah my plan for Malefic Lords being nerfed is another Obliterator unit and probably a Jump Pack Lord, or adding Magnus back in depending on how the Smite Meta and Chapter Approved shakes out. That with Demons coming out early next year should be a lot of fun options. :]

Magnus would be a good backup, and he's definitely better than Morty (agreeing with your synopsis).

If you think you can fit it, poxwalkers with the walking dead stratagem near your cultists would be ideal. You essentially end up with a ball of 100+ poxwalkers if they die.

This would be a strong list. My only advice is to make sure you triple check the points before using it in a tournament. Would not want to see it DQed for coming in at 2001. (I did not check your points myself, this is just a word of caution.)

Yeah I checked all the points, luckily most of it is very simple so little room for error. :]

The Poxwalker ball requires a full Death Guard Detachment to get access to the Strategem and also requires your opponent to just not shoot the Poxwalkers. You can of course me them not shot via the other Strategem but that's a biggish commitment for Poxwalkers, imho.

Well done on the first place. Simply having a good plan vs your weaker match ups is great, and it clearly worked. In most cases knowing your list inside and out including all of its little tricks and weaknesses is amazing, cos your opponent most probably doesn’t know your tricks, nor weaknesses.

how do you deploy the malefic lords? just inside a cultist mob so they cant be singled out?
also is it hard to get first move with this list? maybe its ok to get second turn?
i want to copy your list and beat people tell me how to play please

FuzzayD wrote:
how do you deploy the malefic lords? just inside a cultist mob so they cant be singled out?
also is it hard to get first move with this list? maybe its ok to get second turn?
i want to copy your list and beat people tell me how to play please

They go just behind the first rank, usually the Cultists deploy in a square/circular pattern with an emptier front and then more models on the back end. If I'm going against a melee army I announce my intent is to have the Lords just over 1" from the front lines. They can be Piled In on but I don't care about that.

I play ITC so I am at a +1 disadvantage to go first, it's not that bad. I went second in two of my thre tournament games, once by choice. Obviously it's always better to go first despite the ITC attempts but I think against anything but IG going second is fine.

Myraid of flies or a similar name is a psyker ability that makes the unit a character. So they won't get shot up.

 papaseven wrote:
Myraid of flies or a similar name is a psyker ability that makes the unit a character. So they won't get shot up.

Yes but as I said you need an entirely DG Detachment to unlock those. That would change the entire makeup of the list and probably make it much worse.

The list is solid but you give up secondary points from headhunter and (can't think of the name) the one for killing units of x size. 1 points for 10, 2 points for 2. Outside of that I don't really see the list struggling much outside of what you pointed out. I agree with your criticisms on Magnus and Morty in this list. They don't go in every list and require lists to be built around them.

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:
The list is solid but you give up secondary points from headhunter and (can't think of the name) the one for killing units of x size. 1 points for 10, 2 points for 2. Outside of that I don't really see the list struggling much outside of what you pointed out. I agree with your criticisms on Magnus and Morty in this list. They don't go in every list and require lists to be built around them.

This was/is my position as well but I found it's not as bad as it could be. Headhunter is hard, I pretty much plan on surrendering 4 to that one everytime. However The Reaper is deceptive, it's hard to kill 40 models even if they're weak ESPECIALLY once the Obliterators come down. Since Tide of Traitors makes it clear the unit is not destroyed you don't surrender points and I have not seen anything from the ITC that says otherwise. I surrendered The Reaper once over three rounds.

You're certainly not wrong, just with table time I don't think it's as bad as I originally put forth. Also the list is likely to get changed within a month and then I can work on not having Headhunter as a weak point which will make the list even more powerful on Scenario, although of course weaker overall.

 The Prince of Excess wrote:

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:
The list is solid but you give up secondary points from headhunter and (can't think of the name) the one for killing units of x size. 1 points for 10, 2 points for 2. Outside of that I don't really see the list struggling much outside of what you pointed out. I agree with your criticisms on Magnus and Morty in this list. They don't go in every list and require lists to be built around them.

This was/is my position as well but I found it's not as bad as it could be. Headhunter is hard, I pretty much plan on surrendering 4 to that one everytime. However The Reaper is deceptive, it's hard to kill 40 models even if they're weak ESPECIALLY once the Obliterators come down. Since Tide of Traitors makes it clear the unit is not destroyed you don't surrender points and I have not seen anything from the ITC that says otherwise. I surrendered The Reaper once over three rounds.

You're certainly not wrong, just with table time I don't think it's as bad as I originally put forth. Also the list is likely to get changed within a month and then I can work on not having Headhunter as a weak point which will make the list even more powerful on Scenario, although of course weaker overall.

Looked at the reaper again yeah, you don't give that up unless they kill the whole unit. So that is good. Have you looked into make them Alpha legion? The -1 is stupid good and then it would make the chnageling less necessary.

i tried to counter this list with world eaters relic and strategem to shut down psychic but obliterators are too op.

im running a very similar list (and i will bring it to a tournament), i will test it again this saturday.

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:

 The Prince of Excess wrote:

O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:
The list is solid but you give up secondary points from headhunter and (can't think of the name) the one for killing units of x size. 1 points for 10, 2 points for 2. Outside of that I don't really see the list struggling much outside of what you pointed out. I agree with your criticisms on Magnus and Morty in this list. They don't go in every list and require lists to be built around them.

This was/is my position as well but I found it's not as bad as it could be. Headhunter is hard, I pretty much plan on surrendering 4 to that one everytime. However The Reaper is deceptive, it's hard to kill 40 models even if they're weak ESPECIALLY once the Obliterators come down. Since Tide of Traitors makes it clear the unit is not destroyed you don't surrender points and I have not seen anything from the ITC that says otherwise. I surrendered The Reaper once over three rounds.

You're certainly not wrong, just with table time I don't think it's as bad as I originally put forth. Also the list is likely to get changed within a month and then I can work on not having Headhunter as a weak point which will make the list even more powerful on Scenario, although of course weaker overall.

Looked at the reaper again yeah, you don't give that up unless they kill the whole unit. So that is good. Have you looked into make them Alpha legion? The -1 is stupid good and then it would make the chnageling less necessary.

The Changeling doesn't impact Cultists, only Tzeentch Demons. Alpha Legion makes it so they cannot get re-rolls to hit from Abaddon which is actually quite important. Without that he's also not worth his points so I'd have to run Iron Warriors which would again change the makeup of the list. It might be a good way to go, I could save easily 100pts that way, however it makes the list overall weaker without really giving a return that I can see.

i will test this list sturday

BL spearheah detachment
Abbabon (first of traitors)
3x3 TZ Obly
3 Sl obly

alpha legion Battalion detachment
Exalted champion chain axe+chainshowrd mark of korne
sorcerer jump pack TZ
15 berserker chain axe+chain sword, champion, icon of wrath
29+19+19 cultists mark of SL

supreme command
The changeling
4x malefic lords
infiltrate 16 berzy+exalted champion, support it with sorcerer, large firebase with 12 oblys with -1 to hit them and rr for Abbadon, immune to battle shock, culist to grab obj and if within 12" of Abbadon they wont test morale, 10 CP for tricks with stratagems.

 blackmage wrote:
i will test this list sturday

BL spearheah detachment
Abbabon (first of traitors)
3x3 TZ Obly
3 Sl obly

alpha legion Battalion detachment
Exalted champion chain axe+chainshowrd mark of korne
sorcerer jump pack TZ
15 berserker chain axe+chain sword, champion, icon of wrath
29+19+19 cultists mark of SL

supreme command
The changeling
4x malefic lords
infiltrate 16 berzy+exalted champion, support it with sorcerer, large firebase with 12 oblys with -1 to hit them and rr for Abbadon, immune to battle shock, culist to grab obj and if within 12" of Abbadon they wont test morale, 10 CP for tricks with stratagems.

i dunno 3 squads of 40 cultists with like 14cp is pretty devistating, ive used a list similar to this with bloodletters. because demons dont count towards deployment when summoned you get a good shot at first turn but because of current summoning its hard to get them into use until Turn 3

i only have 10 CP the big cultist blob (30 models) can be the target of stratagem to make them shoot twice, maybe infiltrate them too.