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They were elite in the last edition I played - and I think they were Limited, too. I don't remember.

Anyways, when and why are they troop choices, now? I can see wanting to have a bunch of them on the field at once (elite strike force after some key objective), but there's native support for having an army entirely out of Elite choices now. They have some pretty impressive profiles, even if the new models look a little...odd.

What's up with that?

M.

With the way detachments works its kinda irrelevant.

but yeah they really should not be troops.

They were troops in their own Codex.

GW wants you to be able to field an army of scions.

There have been options to make Stormtroopers (or close equivalents) Troops through most of 40k, this is just the first edition where it's been both handled smoothly and that Stormtroopers havent been total garbage.

In the 3E blackbook there were options for Stormtrooper companies, the 3.5E IG codex allowed for 3 units of ST's to be Troops as "Grenadiers" (this is what I built my first IG army around), that got rolled into 5E as a Hardened Veterans option, and then the tail end of 6E came up with their "Tempestus Scions" reboot that made them their own distinct army for whatever reason, and the 8E book rolled them back into the main IG codex as Troops.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They were troops in their own Codex.

Could of sworn they where elites.

Nope, troops.

 Infantryman wrote:
They were elite in the last edition I played - and I think they were Limited, too. I don't remember.

Anyways, when and why are they troop choices, now? I can see wanting to have a bunch of them on the field at once (elite strike force after some key objective), but there's native support for having an army entirely out of Elite choices now. They have some pretty impressive profiles, even if the new models look a little...odd.

What's up with that?

M.

The 6th edition codex with Scions as troops was recent enough that GW had a momentary lapse of callousness and thought about people that collected a full Scion Army.

Because Games Workshop abruptly remembered that Grenadiers regiments and other Heavy Infantry regiments existed, but couldn't be assed to give carapace armour to mere guardsmen or Veterans, so they slapped the troops symbol on Scions and called it a day.

Seriously, why no carapace regiments, GW? WHY?

B1okHead wrote:
GW wants you to be able to field an army of scions.

It's still impossible to field a Militarum Tempestus brigade, though.

I think scions should be elites, veterans should be troops, and if your army only uses the tempestus regiment rules for all detachments then they can be taken as troops.

Jory4001 wrote:
I think scions should be elites, veterans should be troops, and if your army only uses the tempestus regiment rules for all detachments then they can be taken as troops.

Or adjust keywords so they dont really fall into IG. because they ascetically and from what i recall lore wise dont actually fit with normal IG.

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They were troops in their own Codex.

Could of sworn they where elites.

Not in Militarum Tempestus, no.

The Platoons were Elites in C: IG for some weird reason. Never understood why they got platoons while the actual Tempestus got squads.

They're different from normal IG regiments, but aren't completely separate. They relationship is pretty close to that of modern special forces. Delta Force commandos for instance are still Army soldiers, but they're utilized, deployed, and commanded at different levels than say, tank companies or infantry grunts with their chains of command intersecting only at higher levels. Same thing with Stormtroopers and more typical IG regiments. The current keyword system and the way Doctrines works pretty much keeps them in their own detachments most of the time anyway.

 Desubot wrote:

Jory4001 wrote:
I think scions should be elites, veterans should be troops, and if your army only uses the tempestus regiment rules for all detachments then they can be taken as troops.

Or adjust keywords so they dont really fall into IG. because they ascetically and from what i recall lore wise dont actually fit with normal IG.

With the way regimental doctrines work, that already happens to an extent. Stormtroopers are often attached to guard regiments without officially being part of them, with the exception of all the regiments that have "stormtrooper training" like the Kasrkin and so on. And crunchwise, this works in the sense that you can buy a unit of Scions for your army, but that unit won't get regimental doctrines.

Effectively it means if you want to take advantage of doctrines, the Scions are going to be in their own detachment and the regular guardsmen will have a separate regimental detachment.

And in a historical sense, as mentioned, the old Guard codices have included option to make stormtroopers troops for a long time, and more specifically Inquisition used to have stormtroopers as troops back in 3rd edition, and in their own codex in 6/7 they were troops. By making Scions a troops choice now and Tempestor Prime an HQ, it allows the player to make their Inquisitorial Stormtrooper unit once again without having to explain why they needed to bum a ride off of twenty guardsmen and their lieutenant.

I think the bigger question is: Why aren't they included as troops for the Inquisition in Index Imperium 2?
Running an Inquisition army that isn't a couple of =I= accompanying another Imperial Faction is unfortunately impossible right now.

 Esmer wrote:
I think the bigger question is: Why aren't they included as troops for the Inquisition in Index Imperium 2?
Running an Inquisition army that isn't a couple of =I= accompanying another Imperial Faction is unfortunately impossible right now.

Not to mention their hilariously overpriced henchmen! At least in 6/7th =I= you could make them in to "stormtroopers" with crummy BS. Its a bit odd that they aren't part of that army, even their old fluff had them at the beck and call of Inquisitors, heck Greyfax had her own personal retinue of Kappic Eagles in stasis with her. I have a feeling they will eventually give us a Inquisitor + Henchmen plastic box with a tremendous amount of bits to go with it.

Just based on the art alone you would think that Scions are the elite of the elite since they are one of the few groups to survive the full trip to Macragge from Cadia.

B1okHead wrote:
GW wants you to be able to field an army of scions.

Then gw should give you ten guys In the box not 5.

Desubot wrote:With the way detachments works its kinda irrelevant.

but yeah they really should not be troops.

This is what I was getting at. Like, I feel like the idea was so you could have a "hard core" Guard force...but you basically can do that without them being Troops.

Vaktathi wrote:There have been options to make Stormtroopers (or close equivalents) Troops through most of 40k, this is just the first edition where it's been both handled smoothly and that Stormtroopers havent been total garbage.

In the 3E blackbook there were options for Stormtrooper companies, the 3.5E IG codex allowed for 3 units of ST's to be Troops as "Grenadiers" (this is what I built my first IG army around), that got rolled into 5E as a Hardened Veterans option, and then the tail end of 6E came up with their "Tempestus Scions" reboot that made them their own distinct army for whatever reason, and the 8E book rolled them back into the main IG codex as Troops.

See, I vaguely remember Grenadiers but I thought they were their own thing, not just repurposed Stormies.

So Scions have been A Thing for a while, it seems. I went from 4 to 8, so they were some newfangled thing as far as I could tell.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Because Games Workshop abruptly remembered that Grenadiers regiments and other Heavy Infantry regiments existed, but couldn't be assed to give carapace armour to mere guardsmen or Veterans, so they slapped the troops symbol on Scions and called it a day.

Seriously, why no carapace regiments, GW? WHY?

Yeah, Vets being Elites makes even LESS sense. The "Veteran" squad should be letting us represent literal long-service veterans, as well as advanced infantry.

(As I keep complaining, the "Guardsman" entry should really be allowing us to kit them up in all kinds of wild ways...)

Vaktathi wrote:They're different from normal IG regiments, but aren't completely separate. They relationship is pretty close to that of modern special forces. Delta Force commandos for instance are still Army soldiers, but they're utilized, deployed, and commanded at different levels than say, tank companies or infantry grunts with their chains of command intersecting only at higher levels. Same thing with Stormtroopers and more typical IG regiments. The current keyword system and the way Doctrines works pretty much keeps them in their own detachments most of the time anyway.

This I do know. That said, there's barely more than SFOD-D than there are Space Marines in a Chapter...but yeah. They do feel closer to "attachment" than "line Guard" due to the lack of <Regiment>.

It's all just kinda weird.

At the very least, Veterans should be Troops!

M.

 Infantryman wrote:

Desubot wrote:With the way detachments works its kinda irrelevant.

but yeah they really should not be troops.

This is what I was getting at. Like, I feel like the idea was so you could have a "hard core" Guard force...but you basically can do that without them being Troops.

Vaktathi wrote:There have been options to make Stormtroopers (or close equivalents) Troops through most of 40k, this is just the first edition where it's been both handled smoothly and that Stormtroopers havent been total garbage.

In the 3E blackbook there were options for Stormtrooper companies, the 3.5E IG codex allowed for 3 units of ST's to be Troops as "Grenadiers" (this is what I built my first IG army around), that got rolled into 5E as a Hardened Veterans option, and then the tail end of 6E came up with their "Tempestus Scions" reboot that made them their own distinct army for whatever reason, and the 8E book rolled them back into the main IG codex as Troops.

See, I vaguely remember Grenadiers but I thought they were their own thing, not just repurposed Stormies.

So Scions have been A Thing for a while, it seems. I went from 4 to 8, so they were some newfangled thing as far as I could tell.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Because Games Workshop abruptly remembered that Grenadiers regiments and other Heavy Infantry regiments existed, but couldn't be assed to give carapace armour to mere guardsmen or Veterans, so they slapped the troops symbol on Scions and called it a day.

Seriously, why no carapace regiments, GW? WHY?

Yeah, Vets being Elites makes even LESS sense. The "Veteran" squad should be letting us represent literal long-service veterans, as well as advanced infantry.

(As I keep complaining, the "Guardsman" entry should really be allowing us to kit them up in all kinds of wild ways...)

Vaktathi wrote:They're different from normal IG regiments, but aren't completely separate. They relationship is pretty close to that of modern special forces. Delta Force commandos for instance are still Army soldiers, but they're utilized, deployed, and commanded at different levels than say, tank companies or infantry grunts with their chains of command intersecting only at higher levels. Same thing with Stormtroopers and more typical IG regiments. The current keyword system and the way Doctrines works pretty much keeps them in their own detachments most of the time anyway.

This I do know. That said, there's barely more than SFOD-D than there are Space Marines in a Chapter...but yeah. They do feel closer to "attachment" than "line Guard" due to the lack of <Regiment>.

It's all just kinda weird.

At the very least, Veterans should be Troops!

M.

Stormtoopers as troops were a thing in 4th. One of the Doctrine options was "Grenadiers" which allowed 0-3 of your troops choices to be Storm Troopers, back when they had Hellguns that were Str 3, AP5 and they came with targeters.

Storm Troopers were also a troop choice in the Daemon Hunter codex. Usually ran those with Terminators and overall had a ball, even though that was a frickin hard codex to run games with...

kurhanik wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Jory4001 wrote:
I think scions should be elites, veterans should be troops, and if your army only uses the tempestus regiment rules for all detachments then they can be taken as troops.

Or adjust keywords so they dont really fall into IG. because they ascetically and from what i recall lore wise dont actually fit with normal IG.

With the way regimental doctrines work, that already happens to an extent. Stormtroopers are often attached to guard regiments without officially being part of them, with the exception of all the regiments that have "stormtrooper training" like the Kasrkin and so on. And crunchwise, this works in the sense that you can buy a unit of Scions for your army, but that unit won't get regimental doctrines.

Kasrkin have been described in two ways:
1) Part of the Regimental structure. They were effectively the headquarters security/"heavy infantry" of a Cadian Shock Trooper Regiment. When a Kasr had a Regiment founded, they also raised at least a Company of Kasrkin to be a part of it.
2) As a separate Regiment themselves. There did exist entire Kasrkin Regiments, from Heavy Weapon Teams to Sniper Teams and so forth.

Effectively it means if you want to take advantage of doctrines, the Scions are going to be in their own detachment and the regular guardsmen will have a separate regimental detachment.

And in a historical sense, as mentioned, the old Guard codices have included option to make stormtroopers troops for a long time, and more specifically Inquisition used to have stormtroopers as troops back in 3rd edition, and in their own codex in 6/7 they were troops. By making Scions a troops choice now and Tempestor Prime an HQ, it allows the player to make their Inquisitorial Stormtrooper unit once again without having to explain why they needed to bum a ride off of twenty guardsmen and their lieutenant.

Ehhhh...
Grenadiers was a totally different thing to how some people seem to be thinking of it.
Grenadiers allowed for you to field 0-3 units of Stormtroopers who could not have Deep Strike or Infiltrate as Troops. That was a very important distinction as the training for the Grenadiers was implied to be more of a "Heavy Infantry" training than a "Special Forces" training.

You can see that in the Krieg Grenadiers, same gear as the Scions, but no deepstrike, although in fluff they're used as the firepower when engineers do tunnel attack with breaching drills, thanks to their gear and veterancy.

The Doctrines! Now I remember.

M.

Yeah, doctrines were awesome.

The armoured company ones especially were fun and interesting!

 Infantryman wrote:
They were elite in the last edition I played - and I think they were Limited, too. I don't remember.

Anyways, when and why are they troop choices, now? I can see wanting to have a bunch of them on the field at once (elite strike force after some key objective), but there's native support for having an army entirely out of Elite choices now. They have some pretty impressive profiles, even if the new models look a little...odd.

What's up with that?

M.

6th gave them the ability to be fielded in platoons, so people were able to build whole armies of them. Then Stormtroopers got their own limited edition codex (yes you heard that right, only limited edition) that made them an actual army with their own force org. The main squads were troops, command squads were elites, Commissars and tempestors were HQ, etc.

When 8th edition came along, platoons were dead, so they couldn't shove all the options into elites, and the stormtrooper codex was dead, so they just shoved them into the IG codex but kept their force org spot from the stormtrooper codex. This way Scion players who bought the codex could keep their armies as is, but IG players could keep using stormtroopers in mostly the same way as they always had.

So yes, stormtroopers are apparently more plentiful and easy to access for your army than veterans from within the same regiment are.

One solution could be that scions are normally elites but can be taken as troops in <Militarum Tempestus> detachments.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Then Stormtroopers got their own limited edition codex (yes you heard that right, only limited edition) that made them an actual army with their own force org.

This is not true.

The initial print run was small but they also had Digital copies and then softback copies. When 8th edition dropped, it was still for sale.
It was not however a general stock item which led to people saying things like "it was limited edition".

Personally, I don't mind Storm Troopers being Troops.

However, I do mind Veterans and SWSs being moved to Elites.

It's not like you can't just grab a vanguard detatchment if you they where elits. Less command points is a small pay for the Storm tropper doctrine. I think they should be elites.