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Saw today on BOLS an article about how GW could include female primaris marines fluff wise. What amazed me was the response. Fluff wise it made sense. But the anger a anti female marine sentiment surprised me. A quick search on here showed it had been discussed before with the advent of the new era and primaris fluff changes it surely opens the door.

I think it’d be a good idea. Easy to change the implantation preocedures to allow female marines. Kits would be easy to make and nix in, like the new stormcast range. Not over sexualised just noticeably different. The reasons not to I can see is the die hard “fluff can’t change” crowd getting upset. But we all know fluff can and does change. All the time. Just ask squats or tyranids or even marines. It all changes. The space science that makes marines could easily work on women and change them into men. There was always more to marines than giving them bull shark testosterone.

I don’t think that they would detract from SOB either. They are a very different concept from marines and need to be to work, regardless of gender. New codex must do that otherwise they are another army of power armour and bolters.

So I say please explain why in the primaris age we couldn’t have female marines. I’m ready to be convinced.

I do agree with you. Femarines should come.

Fluff wise, Primaris Marines procedure is still the same as Old Marines, but with some new stuff addes to get better growth, strength and resiliance other than a couple of new organs.
So, it still only works on Males as opposed to females.

Now, non considering the fluff, if you want Female Space Marines, you should make Male Adepta Sororitas. Why? Enforcing equality, mean enforcing it everywhere, otherwise it's pointless and better be not equal. If one FORCES females into every army, then there should be males in every army as well. And I'm not talking about the token units or characters like priests for SOB, I mean in all the units.

I like the fact that in universe you have 2 armies that are monosex. Marines can't be female due to how their genetic enhancing stuff is made, and Sororitas cannot be male due to how the Imperial Law was written. You create 2 armies with a strong sexual identity in addition to their visual and weapon identity. And they also kind of overlap if you think about it. Both using Bolters, both being in power armor....

The rest of the armies? Eldar have sex equality, so does tau and actually so does the Imperial Guard. The latter just needs some heads and female sculpts. The rest are basically robots and aliens with no discernable sex.

So for me there is absolutely no need, because the game is already pretty varied and having 2 factions monosex is a nice change for the rest of the game.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I do agree with you. Femarines should come.

Like it. Femarines it is from now on. The bols thing got like 150 responses in minutes. Can’t believe in this day and age it could create controversy.

There is really no reason why this could not happen. However, If they do this, I hope there will be only different heads. Space marine style power armour is so bulky that there really is no need to have gender-specific variants.

BTW, Statuesque Miniatures makes excellent female marine heads:

1. It could not come around. Primaris Marines are simply Astartes with a few extra implants. THere is nothing radically different about that that would remove the requirement to be a male.

2. Why are people obsessed with FeMarines? Is it a waifu thing? Femarines can only be a bad thing. People complain about readically changing fluff and the flavour of armies. Why gak all over Marines and their identity by trying to push female version into the official lore purely for "inclusiveness" or diversity.

I'm fine with female primaris.

I do really enjoy how it causes some people so much angst. That is tasty.

Things that aren't broken don't need fixing. There's no reason to change the lore behind SOB recruitment just like there's no reason to change the lore behind BA aspirant selection.

Andykp wrote:
So I say please explain why in the primaris age we couldn’t have female marines.

Nothing stopping you from having female primaris marines.
It's not as if their rules or models would be any different unless you want to go down the road of boob-marines. Just call your HQ Susan and off you go.


As for the sisters - they really could do something new to not be another power armour and bolter dex, mainly because most of their old unique selling points have been pinched by marines over the years. Make of that what you will.

Primaris aren't really going to make a difference. The idea of female marines has exactly the same details as before. Like the lore Primaris just don't make a difference really.

It’s easy to retcon or new fluff the male thing. Fluff wise marines are really asexual. I don’t think of it as forcing it in. We would be introducing female marines to redress the imbalance in the hobby and the game. It could attract more diverse customers into the game. As marines are the poster “boys” then where better to start correcting the imbalance.

Equality doesn’t have to mean parity. Space nuns kind of need to be female, being space nuns. The whole if they can do this and we can do that argument has been used to try to undermine the feminist argument for generations. We are not starting from a level playing field. It’s not give and take. We need to add female role models to attract women to wargaming. They are under represented. I have a 7 year old daughter and I tell her all the time about strong positive women role models. More than I would to a son because she is still growing up in an unequal world where it will be tougher her than for the boys in her class. She needs to hear she can kick ass and be a girl whilst doing it. I bought her a starter set for 49k, the little one. All male models. Her engagement would’ve been better if she’d have had some female hero’s in that box to paint and play as.

Would people please quit saying stuff like female marines are against fluff? Lets not pretend that fluff has ever stopped GW from doing what they want.

If you list fluff as your reason against this, I really go right to wondering what your real agenda is.

A.T. wrote:

Andykp wrote:
So I say please explain why in the primaris age we couldn’t have female marines.

Nothing stopping you from having female primaris marines.
It's not as if their rules or models would be any different unless you want to go down the road of boob-marines. Just call your HQ Susan and off you go.


As for the sisters - they really could do something new to not be another power armour and bolter dex, mainly because most of their old unique selling points have been pinched by marines over the years. Make of that what you will.

I think GW should make them. Write fluff for them and make the women in 40k as kick as as possible. It’s the 21st century. I’ve no probs with making my own.

Reemule wrote:
Would people please quit saying stuff like female marines are against fluff? Lets not pretend that fluff has ever stopped GW from doing what they want.

If you list fluff as your reason against this, I really go right to wondering what your real agenda is.

Exactly this.

Let's be honest with ourselves. Marines aren't all male because of fluff and identity, not really. They're all male because they're boys toys and boys want to play with boy soldiers.

Frankly, I think it's time we get past that mindset.

Why can't the game just be taken at its facevalue? It's a game.

If it's boobs on a miniature that fancy your tickle, there are other games out there with overly sexualized female miniatures, not to mention your standard line of undress-me-down anime pvc figurines.

No need to be all political over a game.

Ahh, we have a early front runner in the I hate BOLS! Sure we only have a few actual sites that cover this esoteric hobby, but He is going to hate one of them! So Edgy!

Andykp wrote:
Why shouldn’t they have strong female characters in their main model line? Reasons would be nice.

There is. The epic space waifu that is shadowsun.

Andykp wrote:

I don’t think that they would detract from SOB either. They are a very different concept from marines and need to be to work...

Reemule wrote:

If you list fluff as your reason against this, I really go right to wondering what your real agenda is.

maybe there's more than one "real agenda" here

Andykp wrote:
It was the reaction on bols that surprised me. The article was meh. Why shouldn’t they have strong female characters in their main model line? Reasons would be nice.

There are plenty of places to ask for this.

Guard models SUCK right now, almost objectively. I've never met a sane person opposed to female guard (including special named characters). I would be pleased with ANY updated guard models. Inquisitors as well.

The Rogue Trader set is coming with TWO named female characters.

Sisters of Battle are coming. Already Celestine rocks.

One of the most badass Inquisitor models is a 'strong female character'.

If you don't think there are 'strong female characters' already, you're obviously not familiar with the model line.

"The reaction" shouldn't shock you at all. People are sick of this topic coming up, because all it is- bait. Bait so that someone can feign umbrage and pretend there's some massive conspiracy against women in gaming.

And take it from me, there's not. As of 2 weeks ago, every group of every game I play in (except one, becuase it's like 3 people) is 50/50 women and men. And I'm outspoken and a jerk. Seems women appreciate people being themselves and not coddling them more than they do tiddies and a ponytail on a model.

prastie wrote:

Andykp wrote:

I don’t think that they would detract from SOB either. They are a very different concept from marines and need to be to work...

Reemule wrote:

If you list fluff as your reason against this, I really go right to wondering what your real agenda is.

maybe there's more than one "real agenda" here

My agenda is clear. I think female marines make sense sales wise, fluff wise and most importantly as an example to women. Yes it’s political but why not. I don’t want sexualised women models I want strong female characters as an example to young kids like my daughter. I’m asking here for a reason not to.

The lore of space marines precludes females. Because females would not even be considered for entry.

This is fine. Space marine chapters are not politically correct - they just want the best soldiers to augment with space marine organs and augments. Those are going to be males and not most males - 1/1000 don't even survive the process.

Maybe there'll be 'Primaris' Sisters coming, or Terminator-lite Sisters. That'd do.

And totally in agreement that there should be some female guard models, but then there should really be newer guard models anyway.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Maybe there'll be 'Primaris' Sisters coming, or Terminator-lite Sisters. That'd do.

That is one thing I DO want. Some big, baroque power armor like Gravis or Terminator armor so that Sisters can basically be walking weapons platforms. Make it all knightly and saintly covered in church decorum and candles, too.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The lore of space marines precludes females. Because females would not even be considered for entry.

This is fine. Space marine chapters are not politically correct - they just want the best soldiers to augment with space marine organs and augments. Those are going to be males and not most males - 1/1000 don't even survive the process.

Lore changes. Original space marine lore did not preclude females. As I said primaris chapters could easily have fluff allowing women. I don’t think the dark angels would, for example, they have a whole monk thing going on, but space wolves having shield maiden type characters like the Norse legends could be great. They have fitted into the stormcast range great. Model wise they could be cool. No boob plate please.

I'm not sure teaching kids about strong female role models should start at 40k.

"This is the chapter mistress of the space killers chapter"

"Cool daddy, what are they famous for?"

"Well they brutally suppressed the uprising at planet x killing over a million civilians, then they virus bombed a planet killing billions more people before flying into the warp and fighting 9 armed chaos spawn to the last woman."

"I'll go and play the Airport stage on call of duty, it's less violent."

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
Maybe there'll be 'Primaris' Sisters coming, or Terminator-lite Sisters. That'd do.

That is one thing I DO want. Some big, baroque power armor like Gravis or Terminator armor so that Sisters can basically be walking weapons platforms. Make it all knightly and saintly covered in church decorum and candles, too.

Agree with you in the sisters side. Big baroque syptuff=good.

As for judging and labelling u. U kind of did that to me fisrt mate. If I had spoken to you and the first things out of your mouth were what you said on here I would of judged as quickly and harshly.

Role models come in a lot of shapes and sizes, when I’m playing a game of 40k with my daughter or painting models with her I don’t really go into the whole genocidal maniac stuff she just asks about goodies and baddies and I explain it’s very much a grey area. It’s called parenting, she asks about the Second World War, I don’t give her nightmares about the holocuast and total war, I tell her what she can handle and what she needs to know to undestand it from her perspective.

As for combatting sexism, I explained I’m proactive with her, films, tv, books and games are all changing to show more positive role models for women. I stand up to sexism when ever is come across it (and I do). It isn’t just a problem in my area it’s everywhere mate. If you can’t see that then you need to open your eyes. Wargaming is another facet of life that could improve, so why not. There was no argument in what you said just vitriol at my asking the question.

Basically the real question is what harm would it do to have female marines?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
There is really no reason why this could not happen. However, If they do this, I hope there will be only different heads. Space marine style power armour is so bulky that there really is no need to have gender-specific variants.

BTW, Statuesque Miniatures makes excellent female marine heads:

Very true. I agree head swaps and storied are all it would take.

Primaris Marines are enough of an annoying retcon, more changes are something I'm not a fan off. I would rather GW fully support the SOB's line, update the guard line to include female models, and update the craftworld line to full plastic.

Andykp wrote:

prastie wrote:

Andykp wrote:

I don’t think that they would detract from SOB either. They are a very different concept from marines and need to be to work...

Reemule wrote:

If you list fluff as your reason against this, I really go right to wondering what your real agenda is.

maybe there's more than one "real agenda" here

My agenda is clear. I think female marines make sense sales wise, fluff wise and most importantly as an example to women. Yes it’s political but why not. I don’t want sexualised women models I want strong female characters as an example to young kids like my daughter. I’m asking here for a reason not to.

Yes, there are no strong female characters in 40k...

Claiming that fluff can change and that SOB can't be anything other than female because the "concept" wouldn't work any other way while demeaning people who tell you that the SM "concept" wouldn't work any other way is... l'll just call it disingenuous. Politics don't change biology. Lore can, in a fantasy land. Right now, women are weaker than men. Space marines recruit the strongest because those are the ones that survive the trials. Deal with it.

Andykp wrote:
But the anger a anti female marine sentiment surprised me.

The anger comes from the fact that this topic has been a dead rotting horse for years already.

Andykp wrote:
So I say please explain why in the primaris age we couldn’t have female marines. I’m ready to be convinced.

That's not how this works. The burden is not on the rest of the community to invalidate your suggestion, the burden is on you validate it. So go ahead, convince us how female marines would add something to 40k.

Andykp wrote:
Role models come in a lot of shapes and sizes, when I’m playing a game of 40k with my daughter or painting models with her I don’t really go into the whole genocidal maniac stuff she just asks about goodies and baddies and I explain it’s very much a grey area. It’s called parenting, she asks about the Second World War, I don’t give her nightmares about the holocuast and total war, I tell her what she can handle and what she needs to know to undestand it from her perspective.

Well, she's eventually going to figure it out, dude. She's going to learn that this is a setting where the 'good guys' are willing to exterminate babies and puppies and grandmas to save other worlds or resources. Watering it down is just a delayed fuse.

Andykp wrote:
As for combatting sexism, I explained I’m proactive with her, films, tv, books and games are all changing to show more positive role models for women. I stand up to sexism when ever is come across it (and I do). It isn’t just a problem in my area it’s everywhere mate. If you can’t see that then you need to open your eyes. Wargaming is another facet of life that could improve, so why not. There was no argument in what you said just vitriol at my asking the question.

It's a problem everywhere? Really? Huh, well- I must live outside of 'everywhere' because there's quite a few happy and active women where I play. My eyes are wide open- what I see far more than 'sexism' is people trying to pretend that 'sexism' is the reason they want a change, when it just boils down to personal taste (or in some other cases, insecurity).

Here's a cool thought- 'role models' for children are usually better when they're real people in the real world. Your daughter is never going to grow up and become a power-armored murder-machine, but she could more likely become a politician or doctor. You should introduce her to those.

Andykp wrote:
Basically the real question is what harm would it do to have female marines?

It would do just as much harm as it would to have male Sisters of Battle and rewrite the established fluff behind the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. Whenever you ask for a change, ask why you want it. Because your reasons for wanting it require just rebooting the lore.

And I don't know how much attention you pay to other forms of gaming and media, but 'rebooting' lore tends to cause significant financial loss.

Find a better role model for your kid.

Andykp wrote:
It’s just impractical and very cliched now. The way the stormcast armour looks just has a better aesthetic to it. I’m a big fan of breasts and I’m sure your mrs is lovely.

This is a matter of 'personal taste', and I don't know how much you have looked at 40k's various things but 'impractical and cliche' is kind of part of the whole schtick.

Andykp wrote:
Very true. I agree head swaps and storied are all it would take.

Buy heads and do model swaps. Be a role model to your kid and say, "This is not part of the established lore, but I wanted them so I made them". That's the beauty about 40k as a hobby- make whatever you want, and you don't need GW's writers to validate it with a fluff-splat in the margins of some book. Make your own lore, your own chapter, and support third-party bits makers in the process.

It's YOUR PROPERTY. What you do with it is no one else's business, and literally no human being has any right to tell you what you can and cannot make with your own models that you own.