Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I think Abaddon is far more a slave than Horus. Yeah the gods called Horus a fool and weak, but I think that was because Horus genuinely thought that he was saving humanity. All through the HH he saw a vision of being the new Emperor, but also making all his brothers and sons masters of the galaxy, so in a way he stayed true, even though he was being manipulated. Horus still held brotherhood in high regards, Abaddon doesn't, he'll threaten Urkanthos or his other underlings death if they even contradict him, Abaddon once wanted brotherhood, but not really in the 41st, i think he's seen so many of his brothers die and now he's a bit of a dick, but Abaddon has spent 10,000 years interacting with Chaos, he must know what Chaos will do to the human race if Abaddon wins. They'll become slaves etc. to maintain all the suffering so that the gods can feed on those emotions. I don't think Abaddon cares, I think he thinks that his legion and fellow Astartes will reap the benefits in the face of what will happen to humanity. So Horus may have been a fool, but he wasn't as much a puppet in my opinion than Abaddon is. He has visited daemon worlds once or twice and we all know what happens on those lol
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/06 02:48:35
I take it more that Horus was a deluded fool, who thought that he could essentially replace the emperor's vision with his own (though deep down it's clear that some part of him has realized that is all BS). Abaddon has had not one but two visions of a better tomorrow torn from him in a relatively short period of time.
The Emperor went all in on the Imperial Truth and Horus went all in on become his father's replacement with chaos's help. So for vision three he picks option F it all and burn it all down, deep down I don't think he wants a future, his total victory ends with a dead empty universe which would also kill off the chaos gods. That in his mind would surpass both Horus and the Emperor. By his logic at that point he would have surpassed Horus in conquest and the Emperor in his end goal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/06 02:28:56
HoundsofDemos wrote: I take it more that Horus was a deluded fool, who thought that he could essentially replace the emperor's vision with his own (though deep down it's clear that some part of him has realized that is all BS). Abaddon has had not one but two visions of a better tomorrow torn from him in a relatively short period of time.
The Emperor went all in on the Imperial Truth and Horus went all in on become his father's replacement with chaos's help. So for vision three he picks option F it all and burn it all down, deep down I don't think he wants a future, his total victory ends with a dead empty universe which would also kill off the chaos gods. That in his mind would surpass both Horus and the Emperor. By his logic at that point he would have surpassed Horus in conquest and the Emperor in his end goal.
He doesn't want a dead empty universe, Chaos' goal is not a dead empty universe and if he wanted that he'd just stay in the eye of terra where Khayon found him. If humanity dies, so does the gods, well they probably wouldn't die but they'd be powerless and have to wait for another species to arise that were emotionally psychic enough to feed the gods. I think its more than revenge that Abaddon wants as well as he gave up on that after Horus died.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/06 02:52:14
I think of Abaddon a bit like the joker in batman. he knows its all a big game that can never possibly end, and he's just along for the ride, indulging in a bit of death and destruction, while playing the gods but never willing to surrender himself fully.
By the battle of Terra Horus was little more than a vessel of the Chaos Gods. I don't think you can get any more slave like than being a puppet. Horus started the Heresy with every intention of becoming the new Emperor for the benefit of humankind but as it progressed it became less about that and more about killing the Emperor.
Pretty good insight from John French, 6:24 onwards is most relevant to this discussion.
Abaddon might eventually go the same way, but currently we's still in control and got no intention of letting the Chaos Gods hollow him out.
Abaddon might have visited Daemon worlds but Horus left parts of himself behind.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/06 09:38:39
I think it’s clear horus was utterly duped and used and was right up to the end. Right up to that moment. I think the different view of abaddon now is just a matter of hindsight. With horus we can see where he was duped because it was all in the past. Very clear. It’s not with abaddon. But no mortal is ever engaging but a puppet to the chaos gods. Hebce the old phrase “slaves to darkness”.
Andykp wrote: I think it’s clear horus was utterly duped and used and was right up to the end. Right up to that moment. I think the different view of abaddon now is just a matter of hindsight. With horus we can see where he was duped because it was all in the past. Very clear. It’s not with abaddon. But no mortal is ever engaging but a puppet to the chaos gods. Hebce the old phrase “slaves to darkness”.
Not really, they are slaves to an extent, look at Magnus, he bargained with the gods and was able to resist them until Prospero burned. Before Molech I think Horus was in control. There is nothing in the lore that states that Abaddon is or is not a slave to varying degrees. He resists being a daemon prince, but that doesn't seem like resisting to me, Chaos would not want him to be a daemon prince, they need him in the material universe to lead the war. He seems more determined and wilful than Horus but there is no lore that states either or.
Chaos's whole thing is duplicity and trickery, at least as far as the most powerful of their champions is concerned. Horus thought he was at least somewhat in control, and no doubt many of the other Primarchs thought so too, just as the little cult on some backwater planet has no idea it's about to unleash a Daemonic invasion that wipes out all life on their world. Abaddon clearly thinks he's above that and more enlightened than Horus, but that's what everyone else thought about themselves too.
It's possible Abaddon isn't a puppet of the gods and is in control while still enjoying the power granted to him by being Chaos's champion. That doesn't seem all that likely, knowing everything we know about Chaos.
Andykp wrote: I think it’s clear horus was utterly duped and used and was right up to the end. Right up to that moment. I think the different view of abaddon now is just a matter of hindsight. With horus we can see where he was duped because it was all in the past. Very clear. It’s not with abaddon. But no mortal is ever engaging but a puppet to the chaos gods. Hebce the old phrase “slaves to darkness”.
Not really, they are slaves to an extent, look at Magnus, he bargained with the gods and was able to resist them until Prospero burned. Before Molech I think Horus was in control. There is nothing in the lore that states that Abaddon is or is not a slave to varying degrees. He resists being a daemon prince, but that doesn't seem like resisting to me, Chaos would not want him to be a daemon prince, they need him in the material universe to lead the war. He seems more determined and wilful than Horus but there is no lore that states either or.
That’s kind of my point. All the horus fluff shows his folly in thinking he could manipulate chaos, even if he’d won he would have been a loser. It’s all clear and in the past tense. With abaddon he seems in control and the outcome isn’t known, but there are no examples in the fluff of anyone manipulating chaos and controlling them. It always ends up you were doing whatever they wanted not the other way round. So though it doesn’t appear that abaddon is a slave, history shows he is really. He doesn’t realise it but it’s how it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: Chaos's whole thing is duplicity and trickery, at least as far as the most powerful of their champions is concerned. Horus thought he was at least somewhat in control, and no doubt many of the other Primarchs thought so too, just as the little cult on some backwater planet has no idea it's about to unleash a Daemonic invasion that wipes out all life on their world. Abaddon clearly thinks he's above that and more enlightened than Horus, but that's what everyone else thought about themselves too.
It's possible Abaddon isn't a puppet of the gods and is in control while still enjoying the power granted to him by being Chaos's champion. That doesn't seem all that likely, knowing everything we know about Chaos.
I think while abaddons plans and the chaos gods plans are the same it will continue to look like that. Soon as they want different things then it will change and as you say. Chaos will show what a puppet he’s been. It’s their thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/06 11:28:05
HoundsofDemos wrote: I take it more that Horus was a deluded fool, who thought that he could essentially replace the emperor's vision with his own (though deep down it's clear that some part of him has realized that is all BS). Abaddon has had not one but two visions of a better tomorrow torn from him in a relatively short period of time.
The Emperor went all in on the Imperial Truth and Horus went all in on become his father's replacement with chaos's help. So for vision three he picks option F it all and burn it all down, deep down I don't think he wants a future, his total victory ends with a dead empty universe which would also kill off the chaos gods. That in his mind would surpass both Horus and the Emperor. By his logic at that point he would have surpassed Horus in conquest and the Emperor in his end goal.
He doesn't want a dead empty universe, Chaos' goal is not a dead empty universe and if he wanted that he'd just stay in the eye of terra where Khayon found him. If humanity dies, so does the gods, well they probably wouldn't die but they'd be powerless and have to wait for another species to arise that were emotionally psychic enough to feed the gods. I think its more than revenge that Abaddon wants as well as he gave up on that after Horus died.
If Warhammer Fantasy is any indication, than Chaos's goal is just to consume the entire material universe and make it cease to exist at all. Not a dead empty universe, but no universe at all. Just the Warp. Ultimate chaos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/06 15:16:52
HoundsofDemos wrote: I take it more that Horus was a deluded fool, who thought that he could essentially replace the emperor's vision with his own (though deep down it's clear that some part of him has realized that is all BS). Abaddon has had not one but two visions of a better tomorrow torn from him in a relatively short period of time.
The Emperor went all in on the Imperial Truth and Horus went all in on become his father's replacement with chaos's help. So for vision three he picks option F it all and burn it all down, deep down I don't think he wants a future, his total victory ends with a dead empty universe which would also kill off the chaos gods. That in his mind would surpass both Horus and the Emperor. By his logic at that point he would have surpassed Horus in conquest and the Emperor in his end goal.
He doesn't want a dead empty universe, Chaos' goal is not a dead empty universe and if he wanted that he'd just stay in the eye of terra where Khayon found him. If humanity dies, so does the gods, well they probably wouldn't die but they'd be powerless and have to wait for another species to arise that were emotionally psychic enough to feed the gods. I think its more than revenge that Abaddon wants as well as he gave up on that after Horus died.
If Warhammer Fantasy is any indication, than Chaos's goal is just to consume the entire material universe and make it cease to exist at all. Not a dead empty universe, but no universe at all. Just the Warp. Ultimate chaos.
40k and WF have very different depictions of Chaos, Ín 40k Warp Gods are formed by, and continue to exist because of, thoughts and emotions of mortals, while in Fantasy they are an outside force that exist seperate of the Warhammer World and have done so long before they began to interact with it.
We have to accept that for all Tzeentch's scheming and the powers of the Gods of Chaos; they get it wrong sometimes. They're not eternally the secret puppetmasters, they don't know the outcome of every clash of champions, and they don't always win. We know the Emperor succeeded in getting one over them at least once with the Primarch project.
If you don't actively pledge your soul to Chaos and merge it with a portion of their power; they don't control you at the end of the day. It's why Nurgle took so long over Mortarion. Free will still directs the major players of galaxy, Abbadon included. Doubtless the Gods do what they can to rig things in his favour, but I've yet to read a piece of lore stating Abbadon relinquished his soul to become a vessel of a God.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/06 16:42:23
Chaos in whf doesn't want a dead world. They need humans and live emotions to exist the undead want a dead world. (with the exception of vamps) That's explained in the nagash novel.
Ketara wrote: Who says that Horus was a puppet of the Gods?
We have to accept that for all Tzeentch's scheming and the powers of the Gods of Chaos; they get it wrong sometimes. They're not eternally the secret puppetmasters, they don't know the outcome of every clash of champions, and they don't always win. We know the Emperor succeeded in getting one over them at least once with the Primarch project.
If you don't actively pledge your soul to Chaos and merge it with a portion of their power; they don't control you at the end of the day. It's why Nurgle took so long over Mortarion. Free will still directs the major players of galaxy, Abbadon included. Doubtless the Gods do what they can to rig things in his favour, but I've yet to read a piece of lore stating Abbadon relinquished his soul to become a vessel of a God.
I'm not sure how you can claim the Emperor "got one over" Chaos with the Primarch project when that deal ended up destroying his vision of the Imperium.
I'm not sure how you can claim the Emperor "got one over" Chaos with the Primarch project when that deal ended up destroying his vision of the Imperium.
It's stated multiple times that he conned them somehow. The fact that they got him back later on doesn't remove the fact it happened. Chaos has nobbled plenty of people who've then gone on to counteract their schemes; Sarpedon of the Soul Drinkers is a perfect example. You wouldn't say that the fact Sarpedon later booted a Lord of Change back to the Warp undoes the original accomplishment of Tzeentch getting him to murder his chapter master, would you now?
Abbadon (as far as we know) retains his soul and therefore freedom of will and agenda. Just because his goals and those of the Chaos Gods happen to coincide doesn't make him a slave (though doubtless they do their best to manipulate his available courses of action). He's still free to change his mind and decide that he really wants to set up a small bakery on Armageddon Prime if he wants. I doubt he would; but the fact that he 'could' remains.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 00:49:11
Wheres that amazing thread on Abaddon by ADB when you need it?
Basically, it comes down to this:
Horus = tool of the Chaos Gods
Chaos Gods = tool for Abaddons Revenge.
Abaddon has always been offered ascension but knows that it would weaken his true purpose. The complete destruction of mankind and humanity. He hates the chaos gods and only uses them because he has no choice at this point. He sees Horus as weak and a fool because he actually gave his soul to the gods for power. But in doing so forfeited his own will and inevitably his ultimate goal. We know this because the Gods abandoned him in his greatest moment right before he was going to kill the Emperor, and he himself was the one that died. They never wanted Horus to win, they only wanted humanity to be thrown into eternal conflict and the Emperor dead because he (like Abaddon) defied their will and was threatening to weaken them by creating a secular empire and using the webway for transportation instead of the warp.
The Chaos gods only want eternal war and chaos because it feeds them.
If Abaddon wins, he exterminates all life, and therefore exterminates the Chaos gods because they cannot exist without mortal suffering and emotion.
He is actually the opposite of a slave to the dark gods, he controls them in his own way by playing them off one another and understanding that not giving into them makes them desire his fealty even more.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Wheres that amazing thread on Abaddon by ADB when you need it?
Basically, it comes down to this:
Horus = tool of the Chaos Gods
Chaos Gods = tool for Abaddons Revenge.
Abaddon has always been offered ascension but knows that it would weaken his true purpose. The complete destruction of mankind and humanity. He hates the chaos gods and only uses them because he has no choice at this point. He sees Horus as weak and a fool because he actually gave his soul to the gods for power. But in doing so forfeited his own will and inevitably his ultimate goal. We know this because the Gods abandoned him in his greatest moment right before he was going to kill the Emperor, and he himself was the one that died. They never wanted Horus to win, they only wanted humanity to be thrown into eternal conflict and the Emperor dead because he (like Abaddon) defied their will and was threatening to weaken them by creating a secular empire and using the webway for transportation instead of the warp.
The Chaos gods only want eternal war and chaos because it feeds them.
If Abaddon wins, he exterminates all life, and therefore exterminates the Chaos gods because they cannot exist without mortal suffering and emotion.
He is actually the opposite of a slave to the dark gods, he controls them in his own way by playing them off one another and understanding that not giving into them makes them desire his fealty even more.
When was he offered daemonhood? I've already debunked the daemonhood thing, the chaos gods would not want him to have daemonhood, they want a general that can live and lead in the materium so if he was a puppet, he wouldn't be turning into a daemon prince.
Who says Abaddon wants to exterminate all life?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 02:23:52
When was he offered daemonhood? I've already debunked the daemonhood thing, the chaos gods would not want him to have daemonhood, they want a general that can live and lead in the materium so if he was a puppet, he wouldn't be turning into a daemon prince.
Who says Abaddon wants to exterminate all life?
Ok, maybe not exterminate all life, but It says in pretty much every single entry in any book somehow relating to Abaddon that the gods have offered him Daemonhood at every turn and he has rejected it.
did you read the ADB link?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 03:10:40
Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi
This entry is directly from GW headquarters. From the office of the loremaster:
So, here. These aren’t my words – they’re from The Archive to End All Archives. The crowning jewel of said archive, as it happens. It aligns with the general consensus on Abaddon, but how it was phrased just resonated with me like nothing else quite had before.
Hope you find it as intriguing and inspiring as I do
“Horus was weak. Horus was a fool.”
It sums up Abaddon. Horus allowed himself to be used by Chaos – Horus is the Chaos Powers’ dupe to get back at the Emperor. Abaddon will never let this happen. He will never allow himself to be a Pawn of Chaos. Simply surviving without choosing one as a patron is a massive achievement. Never succumbing to the temptation of becoming a daemon prince is a second. Seriously, Abaddon is so driven he’d rather battle and scrape and bite and claw his way up to achieve his goals on his own terms than achieve immortality and virtually limitless power, because the alternative is to open the slightest chink in his independence that the Chaos Gods will exploit.
If Horus was the vessel that all of the Gods poured their power into (right up until they abandoned him at the end), then Abbadon has become the vessel that the gods want to have for themselves but haven’t been able to claim. They’ve all offered him a chance to be their regent, to rule in their name, and he has turned them all down, playing them off each other. He is the New Emperor in a way that Horus never was or would have been. Abaddon has, through sheer force of will and dominance, made himself more than a pawn, he has made himself kingmaker. If he were to choose one god to serve, if he dedicated the Black Legion to a single power in his name, that God would crush his rivals almost to the point of victory.
Almost.
Because Chaos can never win against itself, of course, and Abaddon has seen the truth of this. He knows that Chaos is a process, a state, not a goal, and the moment anyone surrenders to the journey and forgets the destination is the moment their worldly ambitions are forgotten and their spirit becomes simply a part of the Chaos Powers. Abaddon is utterly relentless in his pursuit of what he wants – whatever that may actually be. Revenge on the Emperor? Too petty. Vengeance for Horus? Too sentimental. Power? Yes. What kind of power? Mortal power. He could have all the immortal power he can handle if he but asks for it, but that is not what drives him. He sees the Primarchs disappear, fade, die or simply not care anymore and he understands that only a man can really rule other men. Abaddon doesn’t want to destroy the Imperium, he wants to succeed where Horus failed. He wants to be Emperor and have Mankind bow beneath his rule.
His rule, not the rule of the Chaos gods.
Abaddon has not failed because he is wilful or incompetent. He has mustered the greatest armies since the Heresy and unleashed them upon the material universe. He has amassed power and influence within the Eye of Terror greater than any primarch. He has done this through feat of arms and personality, but the one thing he can never truly do, because it is anathema to Chaos, is truly unite the ruinous powers. They can only come together in dominance, not subservience. Whenever Abaddon has been on the brink of victory his backers break ranks, seeking to gain some last-minute short-term advantage.
Ultimately, a win for Abaddon is a loss for Chaos. If he becomes Emperor he has everything he desires and they can hold nothing over him. And so they continue to dangle the carrot, continue to be his patrons, giving him daemonic power and servants, ordering their mortal representatives to debase themselves and serve his will, all in the hope of snatching the final victory of Abaddon for themselves.
It is the Office Politics of Hell. Literally… One of the beliefs surrounding Satan in many Christian theologies is that his defiance of God was his refusal to bow to Man when they were created. In refusing to submit to the rule of mortals, Abaddon carries this analogy perfectly – the Legiones Astartes were created by a god and were never meant to be corralled and curtailed by purely mortal ambitions. As Angels they have a higher purpose – and once had a higher regard in the eyes of their creator, who shunned them.
Quite how much of this Abaddon realises when Horus fails and how much he learns over the next ten thousand years (or three days, depending on warp time) is narratively elastic…
Bearing in mind the warp/ real interface, being the bearer of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not just having a shiny star of Chaos imprinted in one’s forehead. It is, when the Chaos gods are bestowing their blessing/ energy, to be the centre of a blazing star, to be surrounded by a coil of ever-replenshing Chaos energy, heralded by choirs of daemons of all powers, suffused with the essence of the four great Chaos Gods. To each worshipper and follower he appears different (much like the Emperor…). He is a schemer, a warrior, a self-centred iconoclast and a survivor.
But there are the times, after the effort, the glory, of being the conduit of so much power, when he teeters on the precipice of doubt, madness and physical corruption. He stands between mortals and immortals, his ambitions far beyond the understanding of the first, yet incomprehensibly alien to the second; constantly he is failed by the inherent weaknesses of both.
His enemies circle, material and immaterial, sensing potential weakness. His allies start to disappear. For a while the Chaos Powers are disinterested, choosing to split, becoming self-serving once more, raising up their champions, sometimes alone, sometimes together, hoping that these mortals will rival Abaddon. Yet they never do.
And he wonders if it is vanity. He wonders if he is deserving. He wonders if what he wants is possible.
And then the Powers come back, trying once more to win him to their cause, taunting, threatening, cajoling and coercing Abaddon to become theirs and theirs alone. And he listens, and he wonders. And always, from somewhere deep in his soul, from the darkest yet strongest place in his mind, the answer comes back, hesitant but growing louder with every beat of his twin hearts.
Yes.
Yes, one day it will all be yours.
And he starts the struggle again. The Long War continues.
This is definitive proof that Abaddon is not, nor will ever be a slave to Chaos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 03:17:20
Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi
When was he offered daemonhood? I've already debunked the daemonhood thing, the chaos gods would not want him to have daemonhood, they want a general that can live and lead in the materium so if he was a puppet, he wouldn't be turning into a daemon prince.
Who says Abaddon wants to exterminate all life?
Ok, maybe not exterminate all life, but It says in pretty much every single entry in any book somehow relating to Abaddon that the gods have offered him Daemonhood at every turn and he has rejected it.
did you read the ADB link?
All it says in the lore about what Abaddon wants, is for him to leave change and leave his mark on the universe, not to destroy it.
Can you give me a source, I've check a good few codex's and can't see him being offered daemonhood?
All of your other stuff about not being a pawn ect. is all conjecture.
A win for Abaddon is a loss for chaos, again where does it every say this?
None of what you say is 'definite proof' literally everything you wrote is your opinion.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/11/07 03:39:27
Are you completely ignoring the entire piece I just posted about Abaddon directly from GW loremasters? That is the source. It is the definitive character piece on Abaddon.
This piece was written by GW writers.
None of this is my opinion. This is canon.
It sums up Abaddon. Horus allowed himself to be used by Chaos – Horus is the Chaos Powers’ dupe to get back at the Emperor. Abaddon will never let this happen. He will never allow himself to be a Pawn of Chaos. Simply surviving without choosing one as a patron is a massive achievement. Never succumbing to the temptation of becoming a daemon prince is a second.
Abbadon has become the vessel that the gods want to have for themselves but haven’t been able to claim. They’ve all offered him a chance to be their regent, to rule in their name, and he has turned them all down, playing them off each other.
The gods have offered him the chance to be their champion and ascend like the other primarchs but has turned them down.
Abaddon is so driven he’d rather battle and scrape and bite and claw his way up to achieve his goals on his own terms than achieve immortality and virtually limitless power, because the alternative is to open the slightest chink in his independence that the Chaos Gods will exploit.
This entire piece proves that he is not at all a slave to chaos.
I don't know what else you want. There is absolutely no evidence to prove that Abaddon is a slave to the chaos gods, let alone more of a slave than Horus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 04:18:37
Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi
Brutus_Apex wrote: Are you completely ignoring the entire piece I just posted about Abaddon directly from GW loremasters? That is the source. It is the definitive character piece on Abaddon.
This piece was written by GW writers.
None of this is my opinion. This is canon.
It sums up Abaddon. Horus allowed himself to be used by Chaos – Horus is the Chaos Powers’ dupe to get back at the Emperor. Abaddon will never let this happen. He will never allow himself to be a Pawn of Chaos. Simply surviving without choosing one as a patron is a massive achievement. Never succumbing to the temptation of becoming a daemon prince is a second.
Abbadon has become the vessel that the gods want to have for themselves but haven’t been able to claim. They’ve all offered him a chance to be their regent, to rule in their name, and he has turned them all down, playing them off each other.
The gods have offered him the chance to be their champion and ascend like the other primarchs but has turned them down.
Abaddon is so driven he’d rather battle and scrape and bite and claw his way up to achieve his goals on his own terms than achieve immortality and virtually limitless power, because the alternative is to open the slightest chink in his independence that the Chaos Gods will exploit.
This entire piece proves that he is not at all a slave to chaos.
I don't know what else you want. There is absolutely no evidence to prove that Abaddon is a slave to the chaos gods, let alone more of a slave than Horus.
I'm not reading a whole thread to look at your evidence, you need to post your evidence here, I'm not sifting through a whole thread for it.
Again no evidence, you are just stating your opinion as fact. I stated my argument as my opinion, but if you say this is 'definitive proof' you have to actually have proof. None of what you said is even convincing as an opinion rather than proof. Abaddon could be acting like he has free will, doesn't mean he has free will. Even if the God offered him daemonhood (still need to show evidence of that) it could be an empty gesture, they could know that he wouldn't take it, or they could be manipulating his actions so he doesn't take it but makes him think that he refused.
Same with 'never allowing himself to be a pawn' yeah he can still think that or act in that way and still be a pawn, not evidence at all.
Haven't been able to claim. You still need to give a source that he has been offered daemonhood.
Abaddon is determined not to be a slave, but that means nothing. To prove your argument definitively, you need to have a source in the lore which says 'the gods cannot control Abaddon and is independent of their will' or something to that effect. Just giving opinions isn't fact.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 04:47:23
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
I'm not reading a whole thread to look at your evidence, you need to post your evidence here, I'm not sifting through a whole thread for it.
Must be a pretty busy guy to not be able to scroll through a 1 page thread...
@Brutus_Apex if that information is froma GW source that’s pretty solid evidence, do you have a link perhaps or a book to refer to?
I didn't even click on the link, whats it got to do with you?
What’s the point in having the discussion here if you don’t read the responses of those who post? Just pointing it out. Brutus_Apex had good points in his post literally one or two posts above yours saying you can’t bother to scroll to it. Just common courtesy to read it I think.
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
I'm not reading a whole thread to look at your evidence, you need to post your evidence here, I'm not sifting through a whole thread for it.
Must be a pretty busy guy to not be able to scroll through a 1 page thread...
@Brutus_Apex if that information is froma GW source that’s pretty solid evidence, do you have a link perhaps or a book to refer to?
I didn't even click on the link, whats it got to do with you?
Given that you started the thread, and the link actually answers the question you posed, it would seem like a good idea to read it? It's changed my view of Abaddon, if that is indeed the "official" GW view of him, which it seems to be.
Again no evidence, you are just stating your opinion as fact.
He literally linked to a reasonably official piece of fluff. It's not in a codex, but it's the brief given to a BL author. Frankly, the only bit in there I'd query for conflicting with established canon is the depiction of Horus; and that's because that's currently in flux. The BL series has yet to turn Horus into an avatar of Chaos energy/daemon prince in the fashion the fluff implies. That said, a vast chunk of it is from Abbadon's perspective, and he might have misunderstood the nature of Horus' relationship with Chaos?
I guess we'll have to wait for the conclusion of the Siege of Terra to find out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/07 11:25:05
I'm not reading a whole thread to look at your evidence, you need to post your evidence here, I'm not sifting through a whole thread for it.
Again no evidence, you are just stating your opinion as fact. I stated my argument as my opinion, but if you say this is 'definitive proof' you have to actually have proof. None of what you said is even convincing as an opinion rather than proof. Abaddon could be acting like he has free will, doesn't mean he has free will. Even if the God offered him daemonhood (still need to show evidence of that) it could be an empty gesture, they could know that he wouldn't take it, or they could be manipulating his actions so he doesn't take it but makes him think that he refused.
Same with 'never allowing himself to be a pawn' yeah he can still think that or act in that way and still be a pawn, not evidence at all.
Haven't been able to claim. You still need to give a source that he has been offered daemonhood.
Abaddon is determined not to be a slave, but that means nothing. To prove your argument definitively, you need to have a source in the lore which says 'the gods cannot control Abaddon and is independent of their will' or something to that effect. Just giving opinions isn't fact.
Ok, this is going to be my last post on this thread since it is now frustrating the hell out of me and I am quickly losing my patience.
It would be wise in the future, that when you creating a post asking a question that you be open to other people’s anawers. Too bad you don’t have the time to simply read a few short excerpts from my actual proof that I posted in here like 3 times. I even cut out and quoted the major points that prove that your opinion of abaddon is 100% flawed and is in no way accurate to the character Gw is trying to represent.
The source I gave you is GW and yet somehow you are saying that this is not proof, and that your opinion (not GW I might add) is the actual correct interpretation of Abaddon. I fail to see how you could read that paragraph and with a straight face tell me I am wrong and I have no evidence. You don’t work for the Trump administration by any chance do you?
Sticking your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes when you don’t want to see the truth of something is what children do, being stubborn over a game of toy solidiers is unnecessary. Please don’t post if you are unwilling to engage in proper discussion.
Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
