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The visual profile of the flamer looks impressive enough that it's likely to be more than just a stock flamer/cognis flamer.

What I'm the happiest with though is that these models actually utilize and expand on the existing admech ranged technologies, instead of:

1. Yet another weapon tech completely unique to a single unit.
2. Heavy stubbers on everything.

Good to see GW remember phosphor and ad mechs unique ballistic weapon tech.

Given we get pictures of 3 unique guys per unit/assembly, pretty safe bet they'll come boxed that way, which means MSU of 3. Depending on their points they would definitely be a competitive slot filler for brigades.

 Kanluwen wrote:

2W would have them too fragile for a unit that comes in multiples of 3. How many Wounds are Thunderwolves?

It's an awful generous assumption to make: that GW would take such things into consideration when designing a kit. Remember that they design the kit first, then assign rules to them. They don't think about whether the kit fulfills a needed role for the army, unless it happily aligns with the early concepts that they feel good about.

I mean you don't expect, by your logic, for the pteraxii who also may be in sold in sets of 3 to be more than 2w apiece?

 Kanluwen wrote:

And the rules writers usually look at the kit when designing the rules...if you think that looks like a 2W model, you're kidding yourself.

Not especially? The trend is pretty well established, mounted units get +1 T and +1 W over their infantry equivalent, the only exceptions we've had are for mounts which are monstrously sized (which Thunderwolves certainly are). I can see them having other upgrades thanks to the nature of their mounts, maybe an upgraded save (normal or invuln), but a third wound seems inappropriate.

No, because they're more likely in sets of 5 if one watches the video GW put up. Check out 0:24 there. There's one of the Pteraxii variant units there, set up with 4x Flechette Carbines and an Alpha or something akin to it with a Blaster and Taser Goad.

While not definitive, I'll concede that's a distinct possibility. The dual build nature of the kit coupled with the community sites previous pattern of debuting models/kits with photos that reflect how they will be sold made me assume a box of 3 instead of digging deeper.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And what makes you think these aren't "monstrously sized"? Thunderwolf Cavalry are on 60mm round bases currently...these are seemingly on the 60x35mm ovals(comparing to the 40mm bases that the Pteraxii are on).

I've got a pretty reliable scale reference since the riders are skitarii infantry comparable to vanguard/rangers. So yeah they don't look to be of a size that would compare to something like a Thunderwolf.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/09/psychic-awakening-the-cleansing-light/

Sounds to me like there's at least one more unrevealed AM model, either a Metalica named Skitarii Vanguard character, or a generic Skitarii Vanguard character, or one that can be built as either.

Octovol wrote:

I'm kinda hoping it's not just a generic Skitarii HQ, not because I don't want one, but because the way that little story excerpt reads Radiant Wrath is a relic, a one of a kind arcanum something special. It could be a reference to a WT or Relic that allows us to upgrade a Vanguard or Skitarii amplifying their existing abilities...or maybe it's a full-on upgrade for our troops similar to what marines get: Spend a CP upgrade a unit/character. Though I'm still not sure whether an increased range or potency of Vanguard radiant aura would be all that useful, thematic as it would be. I'm definitely excited for what the implications of Radiant Wrath actually mean thats for sure, it's a bit more specific than some of the previous PA stories.

I was just being thorough, I'm personally assuming that if we're getting a generic Skitarius HQ then it'll be a dual kit for this named character. Yea, the possibility of it being a strat or relic upgrade (though to what? A vanguard alpha? Who would bother?) had crossed my mind but given that AM seemed to be lined up as the Imperial faction being focused over Knights on we are likely due a good number of toys even accounting for the ones we already know are on the way, so I feel that a new model is likely. Plus GW has been all about the character clampack models lately, particularly with the PA releases, so not getting one feels uncharacteristic.

Presumably ignoring cover because they're phosphor flamers? Sterilyzers seem to be the pick of the two so far, making the assumption of MSU 5, these guys would drop 25 S3 shots on BS3+. I can see Mars finding that attractive as they do any kind of high-volume fire unit but unless that variant is dirt cheap I can't see them filling a role that Infiltrators don't.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Sure, though presumably what we're all talking about is whether they're a 1W 3S 1A Skitarii profile or a 2W 4S 2+A Sicarian profile, with the cost implications of each.

Assuming they are on the Sicarian profile, that's a lot of points to pay for melee prowess and a second wound on a unit that really seems like you'd rather have be cheaper instead. I think they'd have had a real role in the army at 1W 3S 1A and say 13ish points for the flamer version, but with a Sicarian statline they're likely to be closer to 20ish, at which point the damage output from the guns starts to feel pretty anemic for the points.

I guess we'll know pretty soon, assuming re-opening the factory goes as planned.

I can see the Skystalkers coming in at 15-16 points, but the Sterilyzors will almost certainly be 20 minimum with not only a flamer weapon (which GW has historically been overcosting in 8e) but an actually decent flamer weapon.

Unsurprising for them to be cognis lascannons but it begs the question "how often will it actually be necessary to advance the thing?" since it is a flyer vehicle and if you advance not only are you taking a total -2 to hit penalty, but you are cutting out the heavy phosphor blasters entirely.

Nothing on there looking like a match for a datatether either, it does seem to have some sort of antennae but nothing like what we've seen for a datatether before.

Octovol wrote:
No chance, infiltrators are 15pts now and Fly and Flamers come with hefty price tags. I'd say 20 for the Skystalkers and more like 25 AT LEAST for a 2w unit with a 12" flamer that can probably also move 12-14", deep strike and has an invuln. Remember when Infiltrators were 24pts each? HA! those were the days lol

Infiltrators are a good point of comparison, since they have +deepstrike and +neurostatic aura over Ruststalkers, which = a 4 point difference (making the assumption that their default wargear are comparable, which I wouldn't in favor of the Infiltrators, meaning even more value packed into that 4 point difference). 15-16 might have been a bit generous even when you trade the powerswords and stubcarbines out for these flechette rifles, but I still can't see them being more than 18 points.

dadamowsky wrote:

Madjob wrote:

Octovol wrote:
No chance, infiltrators are 15pts now and Fly and Flamers come with hefty price tags. I'd say 20 for the Skystalkers and more like 25 AT LEAST for a 2w unit with a 12" flamer that can probably also move 12-14", deep strike and has an invuln. Remember when Infiltrators were 24pts each? HA! those were the days lol

Infiltrators are a good point of comparison, since they have +deepstrike and +neurostatic aura over Ruststalkers, which = a 4 point difference (making the assumption that their default wargear are comparable, which I wouldn't in favor of the Infiltrators, meaning even more value packed into that 4 point difference). 15-16 might have been a bit generous even when you trade the powerswords and stubcarbines out for these flechette rifles, but I still can't see them being more than 18 points.

I will be very surprised if flamer Pterax was below 20 pts, and I'm actually suspecting 10-12 range for the flamer alone. Cognis Flamer is 7pts, being worse than Sterylizors. Incendine Combustor is 15pts, having only +1S advantage but losing on the cover ignoring part. Flame Pteraxi, with DS and Fly, will easily break 25ppm IMO. I also remember seeing some sort of grenades as well, on the Carbine guy at least, so there's another thing to bump the price.

Yup, I would never expect the Sterilyzors to be less than 20, but am making the case for the Skystalkers to land there before any wargear upgrades.

punisher357 wrote:

Madjob wrote:
Unsurprising for them to be cognis lascannons but it begs the question "how often will it actually be necessary to advance the thing?" since it is a flyer vehicle and if you advance not only are you taking a total -2 to hit penalty, but you are cutting out the heavy phosphor blasters entirely.

Nothing on there looking like a match for a datatether either, it does seem to have some sort of antennae but nothing like what we've seen for a datatether before.

I'm getting into mechanicus this edition. What does cognis denote? Does it make it an assault weapon?

Most cognis weapons are Heavy (we have cognis Autocannons, Lascannons, Heavy Stubbers, and Flamers), which in 8e lets you fire the weapon even if the unit advanced, at a -2 to hit penalty. In addition there is a stratagem which allows a unit to fire cognis weapons on overwatch at full BS instead of only hitting on 6s. For the flamers, since they autohit, they instead roll 2D6 and select the higher result when determining their # of shots.

It's a good point about the stratagem allowing for a nasty overwatch surprise if it gets charged, especially if this thing has a hover mode. It would be fantastic if it did indeed have the option for a data-tether, as that opens the option for BS2+ twin lascannon backfield character sniping (before you ask, another stratagem targeting Skitarii units equipped with a Data-tether gives them +2 to hit).

Or sometimes the rest of your shooting leaves your opponent no choice but to expose them.

Not to sound ungrateful for their efforts to keep giving some kind of content, but this is even more of a non-article than the flyer one.

I totally misread the grenade rules on my first pass, thinking it was a per-target-model like most other bombing weapons.

One roll per Skystalker is actually quite nice. A (presumably) MSU of 5 would be dropping 3 mortal wounds on average to a vehicle target. Might be tough to find opportunities to fly a unit over a vehicle and have room to land all 5 on the other side. These guys would also be fun for going after Flyers, they could leapfrog the target to bomb it and then charge with the claws, S5 keeps them from wounding on worse than 5+ and if you happen to have Machine Might active you are probably wounding on 4+.

I'm a bit less enthusiastic about the Skystalkers when I took another look and realized the pteraxii talons, despite being named for the template of both units, are probably Sterilyzor exclusive. So Skystalkers are not as versatile as I thought - probably good as they would otherwise be marginalizing the ground sicarians quite a bit, but still a shame. It would have been nice to have an alternate threat to Flyers, and they were also looking to be very effective at cracking transports and blending the contents in the same turn. They can do that decently enough still, but getting a charge off with those talons made it look like they'd be hard pressed for a target that would survive everything they could throw at it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
That...would be a massive letdown. But would also be incredibly weird as theyre both modeled with talons. GW in this edition more than ever likes to slap rules on any noticable wargear they can, its why Killakanz have 3 different melee weapons for...reasons lol.

That's actually what sealed it for me: take a closer look at the Sterilyzors legs vs. the Skystalkers. Sterilyzors have that large bladed talon with the additional piston support on the back, Skystalkers lack it entirely. As you said, GW likes to slap rules on any noticeable wargear, so something like a nastier looking claw on otherwise identical units undoubtedly has unique rules.

Only melee option that seems to be confirmed for the Skystalkers is the taser goad on the alpha. Definitely feels like a bit of a waste for the whole unit to have 2A but no proper melee option. Even more so if the charge +1 A rule is not exclusive to the Sterilyzors.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Where did you get the info on what the new prices are going to be? I'm not seeing that on the page. Is it listed somewhere else?

There's a link in the article to the Games Workshop store with a filter turned on to show the items which are going to see a price hike. As far as how much they're going up, I think he's just making a guess - previous price hikes have usually fallen in the $2.50-$5.00 USD per box range. With Sicarians at $46 USD right now, $49 or $50 seems like a pretty safe guess. I would bet whatever they sell for, the Pteraxii will match.

Edit: Nevermind, found the thread. But yes I will still guess Pteraxii to match the Sicarians.

The fact that canticles are in there has me curious. Is it going to be an alternate table, expanded table, or a revised table?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
slightly annoyed that literally both my armies got no new relics.
Orks got Kustom Jobs at least, but our characters still suck lol.

I'm ok with it for Orks, besides Biggest Boss is probably better than any relic they would have added, and I have a hard time imagining a better relic for a warboss than da Killa Klaw.

For admech though, yea, we're a victim of early codex syndrome when it comes to the power of our relics. Like 4 or 5 different melee relics for our WS3+ Dominus who want nothing to do with CC...

yukishiro1 wrote:
Why couldn't you have prime hermeticon? Oh, are you reading it as joining a holy order is choosing a warlord trait, i.e. you either get a normal warlord trait or you join a holy order?

I wasn't reading it that way initially - I was reading it as you get the following benefits, AND there's also an associated warlord trait that you can pick if you want, but don't have to. But maybe you're right, and these are actually replacement warlord traits, not in addition to them.

That's how it reads to me, particularly since the Holy Order rule shown specifically refers to the Warlord, just the same as any Warlord trait.

And hah, I can just picture the behind the scenes on designing rules for the comm uplink, since it is a data-tether with a different name: it started as a data-tether, then playtesters were zipping these things into the backfield and character sniping with 2+ RR1s to hit lascannons like I suggested. So, the name was changed to avoid it being the target of PDI, but the playtesters really liked the dynamic of a disruptive flyer so they suggested writing a new ability to mess with enemy characters - so we get the new strat.

No wargear options besides comm uplink exchanging for chaff, just the three datasheet loadouts, no Skitarii (this is so bizarre as to make me think it was an oversight), moderate transport capacity (though no special case for Kataphrons, so funny mental image of six 60mm base servitors piling into and out of it clown car style).

Most exciting things are the strong maneuverability (which will be less of an issue for more rigid Flyers in 9th anyways) and the slightly better than expected bomb profile.

 Kanluwen wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Madjob wrote:
No wargear options besides comm uplink exchanging for chaff, just the three datasheet loadouts, no Skitarii (this is so bizarre as to make me think it was an oversight), moderate transport capacity (though no special case for Kataphrons, so funny mental image of six 60mm base servitors piling into and out of it clown car style).

Most exciting things are the strong maneuverability (which will be less of an issue for more rigid Flyers in 9th anyways) and the slightly better than expected bomb profile.

Kataphron aren't allowed in it. Electropriests( ), Skitarii, Secutarii, and Techpriests are the only things allowed in.

Ah right, glanced over it a bit too quickly, spotted "<Forge World> Skitarii Infantry" and my brain just ignored the Skitarii in the middle.

yukishiro1 wrote:
17 points for a 2W flyer with a 12 inch flamer? Doesn't pass the smell test.

That's because the phosphor torches are 15 (!!) points.

Edit: scratch that, misread the phosphor carbine as the torch (even more confusing why those are so expensive). "Chalumeau a phosphore" is undoubtedly the phosphor torch and is 0 points. That's nuts.

yukishiro1 wrote:
A normal flamer is 6 points. This has an extra point of AP, 12 inch range, and ignores cover. The extra ap is worth a point, the range is worth at least 2, probably 3, especially considering it allows you to fire the turn on DS in. The ignoring cover is a point. So you're looking at a 10 point weapon *minimum* by any normal pricing standard.

That prices a 2W flying model with 3 S5 -1 attacks on the charge at 7 points, which is ridiculous.

I had a good laugh comparing these to Ork Burna Boyz, currently 10 points for their D3 flamers that let them hit with -2 ap in CC, but who started the edition at 14 points.

The Holy Ordos traits are nuts, and we can have all of them if we want, plus any other traits so long as we have the characters and points to spend them on.

A more obvious explanation is that the book wasn't properly proofread, just like Saga of the Beast, and the 15 point tag on the phosphor blast carbine was meant to go on the heavy phosphor blasters.

I'd even say the same is probably true of the taser goad "nerf". Another case of a writer just rewriting rules from memory instead of taking the time to reference them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Lucius is super underrated with that Canticle for any Skitarii. A 7/8 point model with a 4+/5++ that ignores AP-1 is super good. On top of that, their Strat is basically just as good as Stygies.

Worth nothing that it backdoors a 2 CP discount on Rotate Ion Shields for a Dominus class knight that hasn't taken Ion Bulwark. Set the Lucius canticle, pop Knight of the Cog for 1 CP. If you're just bringing one knight it's probably better to just spend a CP at the start of the game for Ion Bulwark, but if you have multiple, it's something.

Feels kind of disingenuous to act as though the mount flamers are going to be so reliably in range. Both units have 12" movement and have no issues advancing however they like, but the Sulfur hounds suffer from 4" less range. Add to that the Sterilyzors move freely thanks to Fly, and the ideal condition of all models firing will be realized by the Sterilyzors far more frequently than the Sulfur hounds.