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dadamowsky wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:
Gloria Mechanicus is a 2CP middle of the round switch, isn't it? You just can't reuse them - but singing to get reroll 1s to hit on your doctrina imperative dragoons and then chanting the remorseless fist to get them up to S8 for the next dice roll is fine.
Or as you say, a first turn reroll followed by a switch to shroud psalm?

I'd also say that for 4CP, with Gloria Mech and Divine Chorus, you can immediately switch back to a previously used one, once per game. Which is a lot, but can't think you'd want to do it more than once anyway.

You're going to burn through you playlist pretty quick with those two though, and end up on shuffle by turn 3 though. I think Divine Chorus probably doesn't need the one turn only requirement, the 4CP ideal situation is pricey enough and burning 2CP a turn for cover you can get via movement or rerolls you can get with a dominus doesn't warrant the fear of Canticles on repeat.

Gloria works in round 1 mostly, as you can't use the Gloria on the psalm that has been already in use. So the first time you switch between the cover and rerolling, the bag of tricks has been emptied. Divine Chorus, on the other hand, is basically "Shroudpsalm again in round 2", this time due to limitations of "being previously chanted". Plus it's once per battle. So we end with two stratagems that are usable in a combo once per game, for 4CPs. Somehow I don't really believe 4CPs to manipulate rerolling 1s and cover round 1 is worth it that much in most cases . If this combo costed 2CPs - well, ok, decent even if not game-changing. 2CPs to simply switch the Canticle at the end of any phase, without silly limitations? Well, that's something I can use to boost my list potential.

Gloria as a first turn 2CP for cross army reroll 1s ahead of Shroudpsalm? It's possible but I'm not sure it's really worth it - the area a single Dominus can cover is pretty good, and I'd have thought the big units (Kat Destroyers and Robots) would prefer to get the +1-2 from those CP instead even if you can't get them in the bubble. 2CP for a reroll 1 on a Onager is too much.

You'd probably be pushing to be in range of plasma calivers on turn 1, so maybe save that once units have moved out of the starting auras and just go pure Shroud on turn 1.

2 CP to get reroll 1s on the rest of the army, and then double the wounds on a 6-9A unit with exploding 4+s by making it S8 D2 -1sv rather than S7 D2 -1 sv is tempting. 5 Dead primaris on average, or 7 wounds on a pred rather than 5.

I could see forgeworld-specific canticle benefits, like the marine chapters benefit more in certain combat doctrines. Stygies might benefit more under shroud psalm as they're extra sneaky as an example.

They could add something like combat doctrines with canticles as a part of it, but I'm coming up blank atm as to how they could make a similar mechanic feel fresh after such a short time introducing it for marines.

More useful relics and WT is a minimum I would want, only 2 or 3 of ours are even worth taking.

One of the Pteraxii had goad and flechette pistol the same as infiltrators. I imagine the rifle version poetically just greater range, maybe some ap of we're lucky.

As to what the multi kit alternative model could be... I'm going with a melee only version. Seems like they're essentially flying sicarians, even the base sizes are the same.

I really hot they have some interesting rules, tied off coming up against other armies that have so many options available to them.

Octovol wrote:
I could see forgeworld-specific canticle benefits, like the marine chapters benefit more in certain combat doctrines. Stygies might benefit more under shroud psalm as they're extra sneaky as an example.

They could add something like combat doctrines with canticles as a part of it, but I'm coming up blank atm as to how they could make a similar mechanic feel fresh after such a short time introducing it for marines.

That's a bandaid fix and most people if being honest would tell you such. Canticles is, and will continue to be, trash. There's a reason that the time it was "strong"(War Convocation) last edition involved Skitarii boosting it up. Unless they go and add 'tiers' to Canticles again or wildly overpower them? They're trash. Gimme back my Doctrina Imperatives for my Skitarii, gimme my Alpha Primus and I'll forget this dark time.

More useful relics and WT is a minimum I would want, only 2 or 3 of ours are even worth taking.

Because a good chunk of the Relics were copy/pasted from the Skitarii book and were designed to go on Skitarii Alphas. They weren't meant to be on characters. A simple fix is to give us a stratagem allowing for Skitarii Alphas and Princeps to take gear as well as characters. Maybe allowing for them to take Warlord Traits as well.

One of the Pteraxii had goad and flechette pistol the same as infiltrators. I imagine the rifle version poetically just greater range, maybe some ap of we're lucky.

As to what the multi kit alternative model could be... I'm going with a melee only version. Seems like they're essentially flying sicarians, even the base sizes are the same.

I wouldn't put much stock into what the pictures are...I'd say look at the video. The Pteraxii with Goad and Flechette Pistol seems to be an Alpha and the unit has carbines, assuming 0:45 is correct showing off 4 carbines to one with pistol+goad.

I'd assume that the alternative model is the flamethrower one.

I really hot they have some interesting rules, tied off coming up against other armies that have so many options available to them.

Frankly, we just need the Skitarii to get their old rules back and weapons to get their old rules back as well.

Canticals as they presently are written are really good stop complaining

I have one a lot of games on low terrain tables through haveing my whole army in cover for 3 turns.

Not to mention reroll 1's for your whole army is really strong if your not in a circle around cawl.

So thats 3 turns there great and after that you still get lucky

U02dah4 wrote:
Canticals as they presently are written are really good stop complaining

I have one a lot of games on low terrain tables through haveing my whole army in cover for 3 turns.

Not to mention reroll 1's for your whole army is really strong if your not in a circle around cawl.

So thats 3 turns there great and after that you still get lucky

Thats the problem, also low terrain games are really boring imo.
Shroudpsalm is good, especially because it works on vehicles.
Rerolling in shooting is good in a vacuum, but most of the time not needed so its situational.
Rest is either a little bonus, outright bad, or uninteresting statboosts.

I wish there was some utility in there too, back when we could reroll charges with phosphor.

I'd just like us to get some kind of availability for buffing something other than hit rolls. My opponents are pulling out all sorts of shenanigans with wound rolls, saves denying saves, overwatch, charging after advancing making things untargetable, re positioning them. The y list goes on. Meanwhile we get a million ways to ensure we hit on a 3+ or better.

Anything we get will be bandaid to the bigger more intrinsic problems we have. It's not a new codex, or a supplement, though it could be the number of units we're getting. Just some more variety would be nice.

Shroudspalm is basically the canticles rule. Its always great as its insanely rare to never get shot at in a turn period.

Reroll shooting of 1. Uh, dominus aura? Yeah its nice to give it to the flankers too but in general its not really needed thanks to a dominus (or for that matter cawl)

Reroll melee of 1. We have 3 units that melee at all to any degree of threat (Dragoons, Infiltrators, Fulgurites) and 2 more that can melee but arent a major threat (Ruststalkers or Robots...robots because yeah they hit hard but they are inaccurate and laughably weak compared to the shooty variant). So again, nice, but in general not needed since so much of our army basically doesnt benefit from it.

Reroll morale. I have never once failed a morale test with Admech unless i was dumb enough to run 10man squads of rangers/vanguard, which case i virtually autofail anyway because i lost 6-7 dudes so D6-1 go away. 5man squads near a datatether never get to a dangerous threshold, they just get wiped before it matters.

+1str in melee. Really the only time this is gonna help is if Dragoons are hitting a T8 target, outside that yeah rangers wounding on 4s is nice but also pointless since extremely low RoA and no ap anyway, if they even get to swing at all.

And....litany...is so unlikely that even if my entire army is locked in melee i'd want something else.

1 amazing, 2 highly situational, 1 extremely situational, and 2 completely useless does not make canticles amazing. Thats why we want them buffed.

Also, low terrain? that really bugs me when people try to claim things are fine or broken (strong or weak side of that word) because their games usually have no true LoS blocking terrain and area terrain is scarce. The game is suppose to be rather dense in terrain, and there should always be 1-2 tall things in the center-ish of the board. Always.

I would be happy with these changes:

1) Give Cawl the Shadowsun treatment and let him lead any Forge World; only force Mars if he is selected as the Warlord, I guess.

2) Both of the specialist detachments buff Cult Mechanicus units. Give us a Skitarii specialist detachment! With a Skitarii scout move! Base it off Eldar Phantasm stratagem. 2 CP to redeploy. (That way, you can still Stygies infiltrate afterward.) And maybe a -1 BS and +1 WS or vice versa Doctrina to go with the other two Doctrinas.

3) Not useless relics. Our relics are atrociously bad. The dogmas and WLTs may be okay now that we're getting more variety in our units.

I recognise different tournaments have different standards of terrain not everywhere uses the same standards and there is a big difference between the NOVA/LGT L's and the terrain at the Scottish GT and majors I more regularly play at. Density of terrain has a big impact on how important cover is.

So Cover for whole army a solid buff i mean even on just 2 turns a game I would be counting it as rediculously strong - how many SM players pick stealthy.

RR1 to shoot not interesting but if you are not running a cawl star its really strong. Not every list is 6 bots. Im running 1 squad of mars infiltrators 1 squad of deepstriking curpuscarii and my hoplites and vanguard will often be out if my 1 dominous range.

RR1 in fight is a neich option but occasionally can be usefull omniscient mask is the biggest argument against

The others dont really matter its a free bonus on top of dogmas such as stygies -1 to hit that are good

Could it be better always but as mechanics go ts powerfull for atleast 2-3 turns and thats good enough would i swap one of the lesser ones for a 3" move buff absolutely but GW tend break things and its already good enough

We have some good relics

Eye of xi lexum agripinaa mandatory in agripinaa
Solar flare lucius great for that 3rd enginseer to grab that objective
Omniscient mask - Broken- try this one with hoplites/dragoons

So I haven't been in the loop with the Ad Mech meta in a while. Are Breachers really that good now and if so what should they be used for? Are Destroyers still worth taking in a non-Ryza detachment? Are the Belleros Energy Cannons really that much more better than the Ferrumite Cannon on the Disintegrators?

Breachers were good but the space marine meta has made it harder for them

Destroyers are optimised in ryza but with the reduction in knights are less essential I wouldnt personnally consider them without the ryza

Yes the energy cannons are better mostly because we have other tools such as neutronnagers to deal with vehicles

and especially if you play on high terrain boards you want some capability to shoot outside of LOS

While i havnt played any tournaments i still feel i can say ive been having oddly good luck with Grav-phrons, since i wanted them anyway for the Bot-Bro-Team stratagem +1 to hit for them and robots.
I took the gravs because theyre cheaper than plasma now and since i wasnt putting them in Ryza i didnt want them.

Grav cannons are slightly shorter range which is annoying but man they cut through marines....D3 damage has good chances to cut through primaris too. Also the fixed number of shots is nice. Technically even non-ryza plasmas would be better for this but the fixated 5shots each makes up for that imo (especially since it axes the self-nuke risks if they fire w/o any +1 to hit)

Anyone notice all of the robot horse dudes have swords, not just the leader looking one. Hope intensifies for proper assault troops!

Probably outflanking, T3 2A 2W models.
They might tie up a backfield unit, but unless those are power weapons which no skitarii so far wielded I dont see them doing anything significant damage wise. They might chop-chop a backfield hiding character thi

 Thairne wrote:
Probably outflanking, T3 2A 2W models.
They might tie up a backfield unit, but unless those are power weapons which no skitarii so far wielded I dont see them doing anything significant damage wise. They might chop-chop a backfield hiding character thi

Sicarian Infiltrators have Power Swords or Taser Goads as options.
It's amusing that people seem to forget Skitarii have melee units...people just don't like them.


There was a bit of talk(take with salt) that the Raiders(the non-flamethrower horse variants) are a harassment unit with deployable mines and/or a forward deployment blocker.

 Thairne wrote:
Probably outflanking, T3 2A 2W models.
They might tie up a backfield unit, but unless those are power weapons which no skitarii so far wielded I dont see them doing anything significant damage wise. They might chop-chop a backfield hiding character thi

Alphas and sicarians can take power swords....

Edit : sniped

I don't see why we think these are gonna be T3 and only 2w. An ironstrider is T6 with 6w with two autocannons for 60pts.it still has a regular skitarii riding it.

These come in what appears to be min squads of 3, same as kataphrons and most other army's T5 3W models. I mean if they're dead quick, like 14" quick, id see them at T4 but I reckon at least 3W regardless.

Surely they also have to have the vehicle keyword... Its a robotic mount that most definitely will not be AI controlled or have a will of its own. Though without the infantry keyword prime hermeticon won't work with them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So many things in our current rules could inadvertedly screw these new models up because of our lacking synergies.

They wouldnt be T3.
Even Eldar become T4 when riding those scrawny jetbikes.

Anything more than T4 is ambitious imo but theres no way theyre T3.

Striders/goons are T6 yeah but quite frankly i dont understand why. They look like they should be T5, and im actually wondering if/when we get a codex 2.0 they'll drop to T5.

ah god damnit, the taser goad is such a superior option that I totally forgot about the swords.... that's gonna sting for a bit

As for why T3 - the clostest thing I can think of are IG Rough Riders which are T3/2W models...
So far skitarii have GEQ stats with better BS, save and an invuln. So putting them on a mount feels the same and might well follow the same route.

Their Rough Riders, although recently delegated to Legends, cost 10 PPM with a minsize of 5.
So... lets say 12 ppm for a similar statline puts them at round about 40 points per unit. 120 pts to fill out Fast Attack puts our cheapest Brigade at 780 pts.

 Thairne wrote:
ah god damnit, the taser goad is such a superior option that I totally forgot about the swords.... that's gonna sting for a bit

As for why T3 - the clostest thing I can think of are IG Rough Riders which are T3/2W models...
So far skitarii have GEQ stats with better BS, save and an invuln. So putting them on a mount feels the same and might well follow the same route.

Their Rough Riders, although recently delegated to Legends, cost 10 PPM with a minsize of 5.
So... lets say 12 ppm for a similar statline puts them at round about 40 points per unit. 120 pts to fill out Fast Attack puts our cheapest Brigade at 780 pts.

The preview showcased units of 3, and I guess that's how boxes and min squad will be looking. I do actually agree it might become a T3 in the end, but I still hope for T4 and W2+

You're looking at T4 or 5, at least, for our stuff. They're riding cyborged mounts, unlike Rough Riders who are riding unaltered beasts...who additionally had no real update with their porting over into the Index.

If one looks over at the Death Korps of Krieg and their Death Riders(which are modified beasts)? You're looking at T4 with 2W each.

I'm guessing T4 with 4-5W, a 4+ save and our usual invulnerable.

All the cybernetics do for skitarii is giving them the 6++ via the Bionics ability.
5W is excessive, especially since chickens have 6... That would put them at the level of a mechanised walker or sentinel.

We MIGHT get T4, but I doubt it. So far +1T has only been used for bikes as I am aware?

 Thairne wrote:
All the cybernetics do for skitarii is giving them the 6++ via the Bionics ability.

Okay, and? The mount is what has been heavily enhanced--which is how it was reflected in the DKoK statline. DKoK guys aren't natively T4.

5W is excessive, especially since chickens have 6... That would put them at the level of a mechanised walker or sentinel.

And these aren't something that you could see coming similarly? They're not exactly tiny, seemingly coming on the 60x35mm oval bases GW's shifted cavalry in AoS to.

We MIGHT get T4, but I doubt it. So far +1T has only been used for bikes as I am aware?

Death Riders of Krieg literally have +1T.

I think the hounds will be T4 W3 minimum, coming from sizeand amount of bionics.
Regarding the ranger rider variant, they seem to have some additional backpack equipment and a galvanic rifle variation, perhaps they are 7th edition galvanic rifles with ap - 1and can snipe

More likely they'll be a carbine version that are Assault or don't get penalties for moving+firing or something.

I doubt they're giving us back our Galvanic Rifles, not unless Rangers see some kind of alteration.

I think T4 as well. And/or -1 to hit.

DKoK Deathriders rules were made by the FW guys though, different studio. They might have had different ideas and principles... They also had a FNP against S4 or lower due to their "augmented mounts" rule.
So we either get T4 and augmented mounts for consistency with FW models or T3 and nothing which would be consistent with GW rules.
I know where I'd place my bets
Anyway, it's guesswork and either way something good will come from it - it will be either cheap or durable.

My guess would be toughness 4, 2 wounds, 4+ 6++ save, BS 3, WS 4, movement 12", costing around 14-16pts when comparing them to similar bike models. They definitely won't be cheaper than Infiltrators, I know what GW is like with pointing new units......

 deffrekka wrote:
My guess would be toughness 4, 2 wounds, 4+ 6++ save, BS 3, WS 4, movement 12", costing around 14-16pts when comparing them to similar bike models. They definitely won't be cheaper than Infiltrators, I know what GW is like with pointing new units......

2W would have them too fragile for a unit that comes in multiples of 3. How many Wounds are Thunderwolves?

T5 @ 3W each with MEQ save

which also dismantles my mounted argument - cavalry that got a T bonus for being mounted.