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I've heard some negative things about them, but can someone break it down for me why they are "bad"?

They have two cardinal sins against them. One they are in a slot that is packed with better units and two even in a vacuum they don't do their intended job all that well.

They're essentially assault marines 2.0, not bad at ripping up light infantry/ things that don't want to get tied up in melee, but no were near good enough to be a main line assault unit for what your paying for price wise. In a game that generally speaking doesn't reward generalist units they land on the weaker side.

Depends on the situation. They're pretty awesome in kill-team...

Essentially, they're a primarily melee-armed squad, but:

1] they lack speed (they have the ability to appear by surprise, and kitted out with climbing gear can basically ignore terrain, but they don't actually move that fast)

2] they have 2 attacks, combat blades and their leadership tricks - meaning they're great at chopping up low-leadership mobs. However they have no melee weapon options like power swords or power fists so they're really going to struggle if they hit a heavily armoured opponent or, god forbid, a walker like a knight or dreadnought.

In kill team, 90% of your opponents are light-to-medium infantry, and the game is played on a small, often highly vertical board with restricted lines of sight. Unsurprisingly rievers kick arse.

 Psionara wrote:
I've heard some negative things about them, but can someone break it down for me why they are "bad"?

They have two weapon options. A bolt carbine that isn't rapid fire (and thus doesn't get Beta Bolter) nor does it have an armor save mod. Or a pistol/combat knife. They can't do Bolter/Knife. They don't have Eviscerator type upgrades, or heavies, or specials. They have two "movement" options/upgrades that both cost as much as an Assault Marine jump pack, but only provide part about 1/3 of the rule/utility. i.e. Ignoring height, or deep strike, or faster movement. For the same points an ASM can do all three at once, while the Reaver can only do one of the first two. For double the points they can do both of the first do, but still not the last one. Their special ability Terror Troops isn't universally useful, and has a laughably small range all but necessitating the combat knife loadout.

But they're not quite bad. They're definitely not good. And they're going to get squeezed out fast in the Elite slot.

Other people have addressed their big issues (Spd, lack of a real melee weapon), so I'm not going to hold forth on those, although they're practically identical to Suppressors so there's hope onnthe Spd front. Having said that...

For the price point it's hard to fathom why they don't come with the Bolt Carbide, Heavy Pistol, and the Combat Knife instead of having to choose the rifle or the melee weapons.

It's also a little hard to figure why they don't have a Grenade Launcher option to make better use of the Shock Grenades. Inflicting a -1 to hit and denying Overwatch from even 24" out might be enough to put them on the table even without fixing their Spd stat, especially with the new Shock Attack rules. (Doubly so if they got their full weapon package instead of having to choose half of it.)

Has anyone run the math if Reivers are still better with their carbines than knives with the new Shock Assault rule?

 Apple Peel wrote:
Has anyone run the math if Reivers are still better with their carbines than knives with the new Shock Assault rule?

Table top is messier, but on pure math Reivers should always have been better with the Knife/Pistol combo.

My biggest peeve with the Reivers is that the Sergeant cannot have a proper melee weapon, he is stuck with his useless knife. Meanwhile the Intercessor Sergeant, a leader of a shooty squad can have a power sword or a fist, making him massively better in melee than his poor Reiver counterpart. And no, this is not even due 'no model, no rules' nonsense. Neither kit comes with those weapons and upgrade sprue bits fit either kit just fine. And when a Veteran Intercessors exist (sure it costs a CP, but they're troops, so they also generate CPs, unlike the Reivers) the Reivers are just completely outclassed by the intercessors at laughable degree.

I don't know about other chapters but turning them into Space Wolf Infiltrators makes them so much better.

Reivers are subpar at almost everything they can do. Their overwatch- negation ability has a laughable 6" range and their melee ability is underwhelming as well for a squad that has to get in close to use it's signature ability. The only time I could see them having any use is on a table with an obscene amount of buildings with multiple floors.

Because Suppressors already provide long-range overwatch negation my proposal for Reivers would be to turn them into infantry blenders and support character assassins: Give their combat knives AP-2 and +1 to wound vs. infantry and increase their movement stat by an inch or 2 (adjust points cost accordingly) and boom, we have a unit with an actual niche. Their 6" overwatch negation would also get a use because now they'll actually want to charge stuff.

I really like Reivers to the point they have replaced Terminators as my favorite 40k unit. That said, they do have a few issues in game.

At the moment, they aren't really taking up my Elites slots in my in my own personal Primaris only army. However, I am sure as the Primaris line expanses this will be more and more of an issue as Elites has historically been where 40k likes to stick most of the really fun stuff. At the same time, Reivers lacking Objective Secured has made their job as bullies even tougher if I use them to shift enemy infantry of an objective since I have to kill them all and Reivers don't really have the ability to do that all in one go.

Even if Reivers were made into a Troop option, I don't think at their current price point they are worth it compared to the far more versatile Intercessors. Either Reiver loadout just can't quite compete with Intercessors with Bolt Rifles especially when you have to pay more points for Reivers. The Carbine is just the Auto Bolt Rifle (which is already situational in use and not worth the extra point cost) and the knife pretty much requires buying mobility options be chutes, grapplers and/or vehicular transport. And all of these options are realistically are throwing good points after bad points.

I personally think at a minimum for Reivers to work, they should be moved to the Troop slot making them much easier to fit in an army and giving them Objective Secured. Additionally, I think Reivers should reduce their point price equal to Intercessors so it is more a matter of what you want out of your Troops rather than a points saving. This would also probably require the Auto Bolt Rifle (remember I think it isn't worth the extra 1 point) to be altered since it creates a situation players would have the same weapon loadout on two different units in the same Slot type. I personally think increasing the Range of the Auto Bolt Rifle to 30" while keeping the 1 point increase is fine (I really do feel like it is a 40k Browning Automatic Rifle), but I am sure that still would make the weapon a substandard choice compared to the Bolt Rifle. Conversely, the Auto Bolt Rifle could have AP -1 with everything else remaining the same which I think would make it more than worth 1 point since it still has assault. I seriously doubt GW is going to go that direction with Reivers if they bother doing anything at all with them. At least with Shock Troops they have a better chance of clearing chaff.

Nothing wrong with them, if you know how to use them.

If you are an inexperienced and naive player you might look at math hammer and think they are worthless. Units have great utility beyond simply rolling dice.

 Ishagu wrote:
Nothing wrong with them, if you know how to use them.

If you are an inexperienced and naive player you might look at math hammer and think they are worthless. Units have great utility beyond simply rolling dice.

Reivers have no utility though. Eldar can do literally the same LD shenanigans and with greater ease, and they still choose not to do it. Wonder why that is?

They're inferior to Intercessors in an almost fascinating manner.

 Ishagu wrote:
Nothing wrong with them, if you know how to use them.

If you are an inexperienced and naive player you might look at math hammer and think they are worthless. Units have great utility beyond simply rolling dice.

Nice straw man.

Experienced, veteran players agree they area very poor unit competitively.

If you like models, fine. There's more to the hobby than winning games. But they are extremely poor performance wise.

 Ishagu wrote:
Nothing wrong with them, if you know how to use them.

If you are an inexperienced and naive player you might look at math hammer and think they are worthless. Units have great utility beyond simply rolling dice.

So what utility do they bring to your list? I want specific examples of what kind of tactics you have used for them. Throwing out canned statements like that isn't helpful.

As others have pointed out, they are a melee unit that isn't all that good at fighting, can't take any weapons worth a dam in close combat, pay for abilities that marginally useful and suffer the same durability issues that most marine infantry have. Over all they are assault marines 2.0.

At least Assault Marines can catch a unit.

Reivers are really good at going obnoxious places, but once they get there your opponent can safely ignore them as they don't have the volume or the power to meaningfully contribute to the game besides being extra Primaris bodies. They also suffer because most of the time playing Space Marines involves leveraging your auras and the only thing they do that Intercessors don't do cheaper and better is pop up a long ways away from your auras.

I find Deathwatch Reivers actually worth using, since Mission Tactics reduces their aura-reliance and SIA carbines can actually kill things; they may still get casually swatted without accomplishing much but they're better at pulling attention and fire away from your main thrust than normal Reivers.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Nothing wrong with them, if you know how to use them.

If you are an inexperienced and naive player you might look at math hammer and think they are worthless. Units have great utility beyond simply rolling dice.

So what utility do they bring to your list? I want specific examples of what kind of tactics you have used for them. Throwing out canned statements like that isn't helpful.

As others have pointed out, they are a melee unit that isn't all that good at fighting, can't take any weapons worth a dam in close combat, pay for abilities that marginally useful and suffer the same durability issues that most marine infantry have. Over all they are assault marines 2.0.

I won't say they are worthless. Like I said, they are my current favorite 40k unit and I will deployment them regardless if I can make them work or not. I have had some success with them being a roadblock (not exactly a tar pit but close) unit but that is about it.

Just the same, I haven't found them to have all that great having a slightly specialized purpose compared to the flexibility Intercessors offer. As mentioned, if you don't take chutes or grapplers with Carbine Reivers they are pretty much Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors in an Elite slot. Maybe I am not making full use of Shock Grenades or Terror Troops though. I also don't feel the impact of the extra melee attack as much if I go knife compared to Intercessors. I will admit that could be due to me running only a couple minimum man squads of Reivers. I also haven't really given them all that much in they way of HQ support which could be the bigger problem I am having with them, but I don't know if a lieutenant, Chaplain or Apothecary is going to help or just make things worst for my army overall.

I want to pick up another box of Reivers to have the option to run full squads, but as of yet, I haven't figured a way to make Reivers work well enough that I think smaller squads are the big issue I am having. I will freely admit I am a pretty bad 40k player so I wouldn't mind tips and tactics to get Reivers to work better. So far, I have just found that Intercessors have been working out better for me since I don't have much in the way of solid strategies since they adapt situations far better than Reivers do while being Troops and cheaper points.

So, I would appreciate some ideas on how to make Reivers work. As long as it is for a Primaris only army, I am even willing to build the rest of the army around getting them to work. I just haven't seen anything that will noticeably improve their performance in my games.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Nothing wrong with them, if you know how to use them.

If you are an inexperienced and naive player you might look at math hammer and think they are worthless. Units have great utility beyond simply rolling dice.

So what utility do they bring to your list? I want specific examples of what kind of tactics you have used for them. Throwing out canned statements like that isn't helpful.

As others have pointed out, they are a melee unit that isn't all that good at fighting, can't take any weapons worth a dam in close combat, pay for abilities that marginally useful and suffer the same durability issues that most marine infantry have. Over all they are assault marines 2.0.

I won't say they are worthless. Like I said, they are my current favorite 40k unit and I will deployment them regardless if I can make them work or not. I have had some success with them being a roadblock (not exactly a tar pit but close) unit but that is about it.

Just the same, I haven't found them to have all that great having a slightly specialized purpose compared to the flexibility Intercessors offer. As mentioned, if you don't take chutes or grapplers with Carbine Reivers they are pretty much Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors in an Elite slot. Maybe I am not making full use of Shock Grenades or Terror Troops though. I also don't feel the impact of the extra melee attack as much if I go knife compared to Intercessors. I will admit that could be due to me running only a couple minimum man squads of Reivers. I also haven't really given them all that much in they way of HQ support which could be the bigger problem I am having with them, but I don't know if a lieutenant, Chaplain or Apothecary is going to help or just make things worst for my army overall.

I want to pick up another box of Reivers to have the option to run full squads, but as of yet, I haven't figured a way to make Reivers work well enough that I think smaller squads are the big issue I am having. I will freely admit I am a pretty bad 40k player so I wouldn't mind tips and tactics to get Reivers to work better. So far, I have just found that Intercessors have been working out better for me since I don't have much in the way of solid strategies since they adapt situations far better than Reivers do while being Troops and cheaper points.

So, I would appreciate some ideas on how to make Reivers work. As long as it is for a Primaris only army, I am even willing to build the rest of the army around getting them to work. I just haven't seen anything that will noticeably improve their performance in my games.

Throw in a Vanguard librarian to deepstrike with them and get -2 ld.

The best i have found is to use carbines, buff with phobos lib, and then shroud them.

Martel732 wrote:
The best i have found is to use carbines, buff with phobos lib, and then shroud them.

What unit are you generally using the screen them to make Shrouding work? I usually have my Reivers at the tip of the spear especially if I drop them in. Even if I don't, I can't guarantee I will have Intercessors in position to eat that fire since they usually like to hang back. I also have a repulsor I could being moving into position to screen, but I don't really think I have a unit worth loading into it. The best I have is 3 Flamer Aggressors and maybe a Captain in Gravis Armor. Or it is good enough to deny my opponent some of their units from firing on them so they decide not to just because they can't really focus fire. I haven't tried Shrouding for those reasons.

Ideally, i have tricornered some unit with dc or sg out front.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Throw in a Vanguard librarian to deepstrike with them and get -2 ld.

How are you deepstriking the Vanguard Libby? They infiltrate not deep strike.

Breton wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Throw in a Vanguard librarian to deepstrike with them and get -2 ld.

How are you deepstriking the Vanguard Libby? They infiltrate not deep strike.

I thought they had both.

No, the LT has deep strike, not infiltrate. The libby and capt infiltrate, no DS. I think.

Martel732 wrote:
No, the LT has deep strike, not infiltrate. The libby and capt infiltrate, no DS. I think.

Correct.

How terribly inconsistent.

It feels very strange, yes. I use jump LTs instead of that dude. The captain is a joke, but the libby is $$. Tenebrous curse alone has won me two games.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How terribly inconsistent.

Yeah, the Lt they also revealed has a reivers mask. Lord knows what that means

So we have a Phobos Lt that can deep strike and has a unique helmet, and then this guy who I bet can infiltrate unlike other reivers...

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How terribly inconsistent.

Yeah, the Lt they also revealed has a reivers mask. Lord knows what that means

So we have a Phobos Lt that can deep strike and has a unique helmet, and then this guy who I bet can infiltrate unlike other reivers...

Don't forget he's got a super dangerous knife for those amazing S4 attacks!