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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ishagu wrote:
Well, now there are ways to get +2 to the charge using CT combinations.

This means you can have Reivers arriving from reserve, charging reliably and hitting with 41 Attacks at Ap-1

Sounds great by any measure


For about the same points 13-15 Assault Marines will arrive from reserve and get 41 to 49 AP-1 attacks with the full utility of Jump Packs - including the FLY.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

But they have only 1 wound and inferior shooting. Those are big downsides.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ishagu wrote:
But they have only 1 wound and inferior shooting. Those are big downsides.


How do you put it? Aha you're one of those who only cares about killing. There's more to this game at the highest levels of the highest tournaments than maths. There's the utility of FLY

They have fewer wounds, and more models nullifying most Multi-wound damage weapons.

I get you're trying to make the case they're good. They're not. They're not bad either but everything you're trying to show them being good because of can be done cheaper or better. A Drop Pod deepstrikes for 8 points per wound. Assault Marines - point for point - will drop roughly 75% of the wounds on 150% of the models for the same or so cost and deal another 20% or so of the attacks. Infiltrators have far more utility that is far more useful. You've moved the goalposts on Reivers several times now trying to make the case that they're good at 10 points per wound while Infiltrators are too expensive at 11.5.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Iowa

Phobos lieutenants get Terror troops and Terror Troops stacks like Night Lords now. I think I heard in a review that Reivers went down a point or two.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ishagu wrote:
But they have only 1 wound and inferior shooting. Those are big downsides.


Again, given how common 2d weapons or other tricks are, having two wounds is often paying points for something that doesn't matter.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Iowa

Make a custom chapter with Hungry for Battle and Fearsome Aspect. +1 to advance and charge and -1 ld while in 3”, respectively. Take a Phobos lieutenant, give him a hero of the chapter warlord trait (master of the vanguard for +1 to advance and charge)

With two units of Reivers, that’s what? -4 ld and +2 to advance and charge? Has anyone seen the max of how much just Terror Troops stacks now? Add a Phobos Librarian for another -1 leadership by using Hallucination.

I haven’t run the math, but I still think carbines are better than knives, though the different phases may change this. Heavy bolt pistols are -2 AP in the assault phase, right?

If you get lucky with a chaplain, get Canticle of Hate off for +2 to charge and additional 3” consolidation.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Apple Peel wrote:
Heavy bolt pistols are -2 AP in the assault phase, right?

If you get lucky with a chaplain, get Canticle of Hate off for +2 to charge and additional 3” consolidation.


Heavy Bolt Pistols are Pistol 1 -2 with the Assault Doctrine in the shooting phase. The Combat knife is 4A/5A (Sgt) -1 on the charge. You should get both if you're getting the charge. The Carbine is what Assault 2 -1 With Tactical Doctrine in the shooting phase? Devastator and Tactical Doctrines are where you'll likely spend most of your time, of course, but you're getting a LOT more dice with the pistol and knife.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Or you can just go for Vanguard and get 5 AP-1 attacks on the charge.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

Reivers have dropped in points. Only 16 points per man.

I'm going to continue running two squads. Very cheap for what they do now.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




They're still crap at 16 points.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





Primaris heavy armies are unlikely to ever want to switch to Assault Doctrine, so Reivers likely won't benefit.

Point drop is nice, but they need that AP to be actually good.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

 Stux wrote:
Primaris heavy armies are unlikely to ever want to switch to Assault Doctrine, so Reivers likely won't benefit.

Point drop is nice, but they need that AP to be actually good.


I'm running mine with Carbines to steal objectives and line breaker. Fantastic to get 10 3+ save wounds anywhere on the table for 90 points. As far as I'm concerned they got Ap-1 on the gun and fell by 10 points. If they get into cc they have an extra attack. All good.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I love Reivers by concept but in use, I don't know I'm not thrilled. I get the point of them but they tend to leave me feeling meh. I hope they are awesome one day.
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 Ishagu wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Primaris heavy armies are unlikely to ever want to switch to Assault Doctrine, so Reivers likely won't benefit.

Point drop is nice, but they need that AP to be actually good.


I'm running mine with Carbines to steal objectives and line breaker. Fantastic to get 10 3+ save wounds anywhere on the table for 90 points. As far as I'm concerned they got Ap-1 on the gun and fell by 10 points. If they get into cc they have an extra attack. All good.


Still not convinced that's great in all honesty. Ok ish I suppose.

Also mine are assembled with pistol and knife, so guess they'll stay on the shelf.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

They aren't killing Knights or slaying Custodes, but they are pretty darn cheap for the inbuilt rules.

The cheapest Primaris infantry. It's affordable board control.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 Ishagu wrote:
They aren't killing Knights or slaying Custodes, but they are pretty darn cheap for the inbuilt rules.

The cheapest Primaris infantry. It's affordable board control.


You would have a point now if they were Troops. As it is you still have to take a bunch of that other Primaris infantry.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

Maybe I want to run a Vanguard detachment?

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 Ishagu wrote:
Maybe I want to run a Vanguard detachment?


Maybe you do, but you still don't get ObSec on those Reivers and you're losing a LOT of CP.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

 Stux wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
Maybe I want to run a Vanguard detachment?


Maybe you do, but you still don't get ObSec on those Reivers and you're losing a LOT of CP.


So what makes you think that any objective they capture has to be contested? Have you ever played the game? Lots are not contested by turn 3/4 as armies take casualties.

You do realise there are many situations where you can shoot a Troop unit off an objective, but that doesn't mean the unit that did the shooting can capture it.

This is where Reivers come in. I can fire my Intercessors from 30" away, and the Reivers can mop up or actually take the objective that the Intercessors cleared out, which could be on the other side of the table or in the enemy deployment.

The Reivers are a tool on the chest, a single cog in the machine, a piece of the puzzle. You need to stop thinking about everything in a vacuum and try to consider how the units can work alongside others.

As it stands the Reivers are the CHEAPEST 2 wound infantry in the book that can arrive anywhere on the board. This is their utility, I will be using it. Think bigger than just the unit in a vacuum by itself.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/11 09:52:39


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





Stop it with the personal insults. Seriously. I can't take anything you say seriously if you're going to behave like that. Anyone can 'imagine' a situation where they work. That doesn't make them a good choice.

I'm not saying they are terrible like some are. I'm saying they are meh. In an ideal situation they can do alright I'm sure. But only in an ideal situation. In many lists they will be a liability still.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/11 09:52:54


 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

What are you expecting from a 16 point model? 10 attacks that ignore armour and wound on a 2+?

It's a 2 wound marine with a ld debuff and 3/4 attacks on the charge. For 16 points.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 Ishagu wrote:
What are you expecting from a 16 point model? 10 attacks that ignore armour and wound on a 2+?

It's a 2 wound marine with a ld debuff and 3/4 attacks on the charge. For 16 points.


3/4 poor quality attacks. LD debuffs rarely do much except in specific matchups. The second wound often doesn't help. If they can drop anywhere useful that often means your opponent failed to screen properly.

What I expect is the ability to take special weapons or power weapons. That would instantly make the unit far more attractive.

If you can't see what else your list could be doing, maybe you lack imagination?
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

We had a discussion about judging units simply by their damage output.
If that's the stage you're at as a player I suggest you need more experience actually playing. That's my advice to you.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ishagu wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
Maybe I want to run a Vanguard detachment?


Maybe you do, but you still don't get ObSec on those Reivers and you're losing a LOT of CP.


So what makes you think that any objective they capture has to be contested? Have you ever played the game? Lots are not contested by turn 3/4 as armies take casualties.

You do realise there are many situations where you can shoot a Troop unit off an objective, but that doesn't mean the unit that did the shooting can capture it.

This is where Reivers come in. I can fire my Intercessors from 30" away, and the Reivers can mop up or actually take the objective that the Intercessors cleared out, which could be on the other side of the table or in the enemy deployment.

The Reivers are a tool on the chest, a single cog in the machine, a piece of the puzzle. You need to stop thinking about everything in a vacuum and try to consider how the units can work alongside others.

As it stands the Reivers are the CHEAPEST 2 wound infantry in the book that can arrive anywhere on the board. This is their utility, I will be using it. Think bigger than just the unit in a vacuum by itself.


If you shot the infantry off the objective with some other unit, you can take it and Linebreaker with a 65 point Drop Pod. Even cheaper than your Reivers.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

Drop Pod can't move. It can't hide.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 Ishagu wrote:
We had a discussion about judging units simply by their damage output.
If that's the stage you're at as a player I suggest you need more experience actually playing. That's my advice to you.


Again with the condescending attitude. You are very toxic to this community.

I have plenty of experience thank you, though I continue to add to it and re-evaluate with new evidence.. Your disregard for anyone else's experience or advice in the face of a poor unit is really quite worrying.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/11 10:11:24


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ishagu wrote:
We had a discussion about judging units simply by their damage output.
If that's the stage you're at as a player I suggest you need more experience actually playing. That's my advice to you.


We have had several discussions:
- where you said 10 points per wound was outstanding, yet 11.5 was too high for a unit with more damage output and more utility
- where you claim it's the cheap deep striking and not really "utility" after all. But a Drop Pod strikes cheaper.
- where you constantly move your goalposts when your reasoning doesn't work
- where when even that doesn't work, you try and pin it on your vast experience playing at a high level in high level tournaments, even though you fail at the lowest levels of geometry and addition. How are you coming on that 450 square inches of aura you can get for cheaper than 350 and a 6 CP swing?

Perhaps if you just said you like them, even though they're at best average, and at worst slightly below average for personal reasons instead of trying to make up a logical rationale that falls apart time and again? You know, the honest approach. It'll do far more for your credibility than some smug "you just suck" come back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ishagu wrote:
Drop Pod can't move. It can't hide.


But it can take that empty objective. You keep changing your rules when your rules don't work for you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/11 10:14:17


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





Breton wrote:


Perhaps if you just said you like them, even though they're at best average, and at worst slightly below average for personal reasons instead of trying to make up a logical rationale that falls apart time and again? You know, the honest approach. It'll do far more for your credibility than some smug "you just suck" come back.


100% this.

I think they look cool too. I probably will use them again, as with the new rules while they still aren't great they aren't hobbling my list any more - and I like them.

It's totally ok to want to get the most out of an underperforming unit, there is more to the hobby than maximising wins after all.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

Breton wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
We had a discussion about judging units simply by their damage output.
If that's the stage you're at as a player I suggest you need more experience actually playing. That's my advice to you.


We have had several discussions:
- where you said 10 points per wound was outstanding, yet 11.5 was too high for a unit with more damage output and more utility
- where you claim it's the cheap deep striking and not really "utility" after all. But a Drop Pod strikes cheaper.
- where you constantly move your goalposts when your reasoning doesn't work
- where when even that doesn't work, you try and pin it on your vast experience playing at a high level in high level tournaments, even though you fail at the lowest levels of geometry and addition. How are you coming on that 450 square inches of aura you can get for cheaper than 350 and a 6 CP swing?

Perhaps if you just said you like them, even though they're at best average, and at worst slightly below average for personal reasons instead of trying to make up a logical rationale that falls apart time and again? You know, the honest approach. It'll do far more for your credibility than some smug "you just suck" come back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ishagu wrote:
Drop Pod can't move. It can't hide.


But it can take that empty objective. You keep changing your rules when your rules don't work for you.


Never moved a goal post once. Maybe you can't read?

Reivers were usable before, they are better now. My reasoning for using them has not chanted once.

If you don't like them don't use them. Don't get upset when others play the game at a more advanced level that is perhaps beyond you.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ishagu wrote:


Don't get upset when others play the game at a more advanced level that is perhaps beyond you.


Irony Alert!

Maybe you can't read?


I should probably tell you "moving goalposts" doesn't mean LITERALLY moving goal posts. Its a euphemism for changing what you said when what you said turns out to be wrong. And that's all you do. When you aren't trying a false appeal to authority or an appeal to a false authority, or a false appeal to a false authority.

We have had several discussions:
- where you said 10 points per wound was outstanding, yet 11.5 was too high for a unit with more damage output and more utility
- where you claim it's the cheap deep striking and not really "utility" after all. But a Drop Pod strikes cheaper.
- where you constantly move your goalposts when your reasoning doesn't work
- where when even that doesn't work, you try and pin it on your vast experience playing at a high level in high level tournaments, even though you fail at the lowest levels of geometry and addition. How are you coming on that 450 square inches of aura you can get for cheaper than 350 and a 6 CP swing?

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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