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As title says, what is a unit/character that needs a pts increase. But you don't want them to get one because you enjoy or use them. But deep down, inside, you know really they probably should cost a little more.

For me it's the Supreme Grand Master Himself. Azrael.

The dude is 180pts.

For 180pts, get 5 attacks, 6 on a charge/being charged. 2+hit, strength 6. ap-3 and damage d3 with 6 on wounds being additional mortal wounds. Offers a 6" bubble for all re-rolls to hit for unit not models (so konga line them), all models also get a 4++ near him too. On top of this he has 6 wounds a 2+ armour save and 4++. Then he also has a combi plasma with a BS of 2+.

EDIT: This is Units/Characters you enjoy and like and actively use. But a deep in your heart you know they're just a little too cheap.

I think most characters are pretty ok or need a Drop.
Azrael doesn't need an increase, imo, at all. He's the same as a Daemon Prince with wings for example.


I think Guardsmen could go up to 5, and conscripts can remain at 4 - this actually makes the unit costs distinct again as conscripts should definitely be cheaper.

1. Infantry Squads should really be 5pt models. They almost get more for less than my Neophyte Hybrids, which is ridiculous.

2. The Lord Discordant is a steal of a deal, but really just because of Flawless Host combined with his ability making it go off on 5's intrinsically. Outside of Flawless Host, I think he's aggressively costed, but doesn't need a points increase.

3. Ahriman is a great character when he's supporting others, and if it wasn't for the increase in number of character-targeting abilities, I'd say he could stand a points increase.

I want a decrease on Dante. Compare him and Shrike without looking at point costs and you will most likely pick Shrike. Shrike is 130pts and Dante is 175pts! Or was it 185?

I'm gonna go with SM Lieutenants and captains. Stacking their auras is insane. Especially with the new wording of the Captains aura.

 chimeara wrote:
I'm gonna go with SM Lieutenants and captains. Stacking their auras is insane. Especially with the new wording of the Captains aura.

You say that, but do you play Marines? I always take the Master of the Chapter upgrade because Marine shooting has been garbage for all of 8th even with rerolling 1s to-hit and to-wound. You can't put enough quality guns in a list for the points to be able to afford to miss with any of them, that hasn't really changed.

Smash-captains though, that's another story. Particularly Raven Guard Smash-captains, even though they're hideously dependent on getting the first turn. They did go up quite a bit with the Thunder Hammer points increase, not sure yet if it's enough.

Yeah Marine shooting has to be more efficient because there's a lot less of it on the board.

You can get 8 Leman Russ tanks and hordes of troops in an AM list for example, as opposed to 2-3 tanks in an Astartes list.

Klickor wrote:
I want a decrease on Dante. Compare him and Shrike without looking at point costs and you will most likely pick Shrike. Shrike is 130pts and Dante is 175pts! Or was it 185?

I actually thought he was more! Dante's an interesting one because I think he probably should be an expensive character but at the moment his rules don't justify his cost. They're also not very fluffy. He's supposed to be the most respected of all the Chapter Masters and something of a tactical genius but he doesn't get any CP buffs at all, which seems odd.

My armies all seem to be pretty bad right now so I can't actually think of much that should go up out of my own stuff. I'd like to see SM Captains and Lieutenants go up a bit because the re-roll auras are such an obvious auto-take, which is usually a sign there's something not quite right with the points. Then again, I'd like to see things like the Chapter Master upgrade and full re-roll auras disappear completely.

 Ishagu wrote:
I think most characters are pretty ok or need a Drop.
Azrael doesn't need an increase, imo, at all. He's the same as a Daemon Prince with wings for example.


I think Guardsmen could go up to 5, and conscripts can remain at 4 - this actually makes the unit costs distinct again as conscripts should definitely be cheaper.

Didn't think you played guard.

Leviathan dread because...duh, but also Contemptor mortis dreads. As much as I love them they do more damage than a SoB exorcist even if it was heavy 6 while being almost as resilient, much more mobile, and not suffering nearly as badly from degradation for what is frankly a pittance more points.

Also, it's amazing how quickly people went off topic in this thread to whine about stuff they don't like, rather than admit stuff they DO like might be a bit too strong.

I don't believe in keeping my pet units out of the way of the nerf-hammer, if they deserve it they deserve it and I'm okay with units that deserve nerfs getting nerfed.

Actually that's a lie, Necron Warriors and Monoliths, I don't think those could become too cheap, but of the current competitive Necron units I don't have a special connection with any of them.

In terms of Eldar, I think Wave Serpents could probably do with a marginal points increase. They were already increased with Chapter Approved but I feel they need another bump up. I run three in my 2k list and they're just fantastic for their points.

Crimson Hunter Exarchs should probably get an increase, especially with their new traits from Phoenix Rising and it gives a bit of a buffer between them and the standard CH.

Of the stuff I use in my Eldar force and CSM I can't think of many units that need a price increase.

I don't play Ynnari, and I don't have any Eldar flyers, so I don't even know what they cost. There are loads of Eldar things which are a bit too pricey, but I can't think of any where I think "hell yeah, this is a bargain, it's too good not to take!". Reapers and Spears got points nerfed due to Ynnari and are still carrying that baggage.

On the CSM side of things, I'd argue that the Warp Smith is an absolute steal, but he doesn't do much...so just kinda flies under the radar as a solid character. I play Renegades w/ Nurgle trait. I'd say plaguebearers will get a bump which I'll suffer from (since I just summon them as simple demons with no characters/buffs/auras/abilities from the Death Guard or Daemons book). The CSM Leviathan isn't anywhere near the power of the loyalist one, so at 300+ points they're almost too expensive. CSM have a 5+ invuln to shooting, no ability to heal it other than eating infantry, and we have none of the mega-aura or mega-discipline buffs to ours. Mine get shot off the table easily every time they show up. If anything I find the Leviathan to be too much to invest in for a CSM/Renegades army.

Again I don't own everything in the CSM book, but I have a hard time thinking of anything that's the mega-bargain when I choose it.

 Elbows wrote:
Of the stuff I use in my Eldar force and CSM I can't think of many units that need a price increase.

I don't play Ynnari, and I don't have any Eldar flyers, so I don't even know what they cost. There are loads of Eldar things which are a bit too pricey, but I can't think of any where I think "hell yeah, this is a bargain, it's too good not to take!". Reapers and Spears got points nerfed due to Ynnari and are still carrying that baggage.

On the CSM side of things, I'd argue that the Warp Smith is an absolute steal, but he doesn't do much...so just kinda flies under the radar as a solid character. I play Renegades w/ Nurgle trait. I'd say plaguebearers will get a bump which I'll suffer from (since I just summon them as simple demons with no characters/buffs/auras/abilities from the Death Guard or Daemons book). The CSM Leviathan isn't anywhere near the power of the loyalist one, so at 300+ points they're almost too expensive. CSM have a 5+ invuln to shooting, no ability to heal it other than eating infantry, and we have none of the mega-aura or mega-discipline buffs to ours. Mine get shot off the table easily every time they show up. If anything I find the Leviathan to be too much to invest in for a CSM/Renegades army.

Again I don't own everything in the CSM book, but I have a hard time thinking of anything that's the mega-bargain when I choose it.

Daemon Prince with Wings maybe? TS and DG Princes are better I think but the vanilla one in CSM is a solid choice. Do you own any Lord Discordants on Helstalkers? They're very popular at tournaments and I feel like you always see 3 in any list with CSM that tops an event.

ERJAK wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
I think most characters are pretty ok or need a Drop.
Azrael doesn't need an increase, imo, at all. He's the same as a Daemon Prince with wings for example.


I think Guardsmen could go up to 5, and conscripts can remain at 4 - this actually makes the unit costs distinct again as conscripts should definitely be cheaper.

Didn't think you played guard.

Leviathan dread because...duh, but also Contemptor mortis dreads. As much as I love them they do more damage than a SoB exorcist even if it was heavy 6 while being almost as resilient, much more mobile, and not suffering nearly as badly from degradation for what is frankly a pittance more points.

Also, it's amazing how quickly people went off topic in this thread to whine about stuff they don't like, rather than admit stuff they DO like might be a bit too strong.

It's the internet, the whole thing should have an off-topic warning.

If we're not restricting the discussion to characters I feel like Aggressors and Centurions are in a weird place. If you take enough that your opponent can't shoot them all off the table turn-one if they go first, then you have enough to utterly demolish most armies if you go first, provided you list-build around delivering them. I don't know how you properly point something that GlassHammer.

At heavy d6 D6, both the Vindicator and Exorcist could use a cost increase. Alternatively, most other tanks could use a cost decrease [which is actually what I'd prefer].

I suppose Dark Angel Company veterans are per points some of the best combat characters out there.
5++ with 4 attacks on the charge hitting on 2+, S7, -3AP and 1d3 Damage.
The Sword of Caliban they use is better than most relics out there.
And all of that for 45 points.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
In terms of Eldar, I think Wave Serpents could probably do with a marginal points increase. They were already increased with Chapter Approved but I feel they need another bump up. I run three in my 2k list and they're just fantastic for their points.

Crimson Hunter Exarchs should probably get an increase, especially with their new traits from Phoenix Rising and it gives a bit of a buffer between them and the standard CH.

I want to agree with this, however I think it's important to note that a points decrease on similar units that Serpents and CHE outshine is just as needed.
I.e. Serpents could go up 10-15ppm, but it still wouldn't make Falcons playable by comparison unless Falcons likewise drop 10-15ppm as well (and get the Pulsed Laser Discharge rule too).

-

 Galef wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
In terms of Eldar, I think Wave Serpents could probably do with a marginal points increase. They were already increased with Chapter Approved but I feel they need another bump up. I run three in my 2k list and they're just fantastic for their points.

Crimson Hunter Exarchs should probably get an increase, especially with their new traits from Phoenix Rising and it gives a bit of a buffer between them and the standard CH.

I want to agree with this, however I think it's important to note that a points decrease on similar units that Serpents and CHE outshine is just as needed.
I.e. Serpents could go up 10-15ppm, but it still wouldn't make Falcons playable by comparison unless Falcons likewise drop 10-15ppm as well (and get the Pulsed Laser Discharge rule too).

-

Why shouldn't Falcons just be 15-30 pts cheaper instead of giving them Pulsed Laser Discharge? Their main role is supposed to be as a transport, not as a battle tank. With that rule alone they probably become worth it at their current price, but they also become only useful for shooting and holding characters and Dark Reapers until they walk out of the tank and not really useful as an actual transport. Pulsed Laser Discharge is a pretty good rule for creating a distinction between not only moving a lot and not moving at all, but also just moving a little. So you have 33% efficiency, 66% efficiency and 100% efficiency, where something like a Predator just has 66% efficiency and 100% efficiency. Do you really want to make that distinction for a transport though? Imagine giving it to a Razorback. Lastly I'll say that the game is too killy right now, more units shooting twice is not moving in a good direction.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
At heavy d6 D6, both the Vindicator and Exorcist could use a cost increase. Alternatively, most other tanks could use a cost decrease [which is actually what I'd prefer].

And then you remember that the Leman Russ Demolisher gets to double-tap with that gun for ~20 more points and the Vindicator suddenly looks a bit over-priced. I think that's more a problem with the LRD than it is the Vindicator though. I honestly don't know if the Vindicator actually needs a bump or if it just looks too good next to the laughably bad Predator.

I do have to mention the Whirlwind though. That's a good tank for 80-85 points without the double-tap strat.

Foul Blightspawn and PBCs. 70 pts for a model that can (If the stars align) 1 shot 300+ pt vehicles is crazy good. Also has very relevant aura.

PBCs are just silly for only 140 pts. Definitely need to be 15-20 pts more.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
In terms of Eldar, I think Wave Serpents could probably do with a marginal points increase. They were already increased with Chapter Approved but I feel they need another bump up. I run three in my 2k list and they're just fantastic for their points.

Crimson Hunter Exarchs should probably get an increase, especially with their new traits from Phoenix Rising and it gives a bit of a buffer between them and the standard CH.

I want to agree with this, however I think it's important to note that a points decrease on similar units that Serpents and CHE outshine is just as needed.
I.e. Serpents could go up 10-15ppm, but it still wouldn't make Falcons playable by comparison unless Falcons likewise drop 10-15ppm as well (and get the Pulsed Laser Discharge rule too).

-

Why shouldn't Falcons just be 15-30 pts cheaper instead of giving them Pulsed Laser Discharge? Their main role is supposed to be as a transport, not as a battle tank. With that rule alone they probably become worth it at their current price, but they also become only useful for shooting and holding characters and Dark Reapers until they walk out of the tank and not really useful as an actual transport. Pulsed Laser Discharge is a pretty good rule for creating a distinction between not only moving a lot and not moving at all, but also just moving a little. So you have 33% efficiency, 66% efficiency and 100% efficiency, where something like a Predator just has 66% efficiency and 100% efficiency. Do you really want to make that distinction for a transport though? Imagine giving it to a Razorback. Lastly I'll say that the game is too killy right now, more units shooting twice is not moving in a good direction.

I believe the Falcon's intended role is to be an MBT so pulsed laser discharge makes sense. The Wave Serpent is the troop transport.

If it got PLD it wouldn't need to be dropped in points.

EDIT: off topic sorry!

Daemon Prince. Or maybe just the second claw, because with sword he's actually okay. I even take him with the very overpriced heavy flamer. But since he's pretty cheap I don't feel bad equipping him with everything I can .

Hmm, I was looking in my display cabinet and I legitimately don’t see any units that need a points increase (space marines, AdMech, and Knights) . I have no smash captains, and the one unit I would have said needs an increase (Feirros) just got kneecapped and I hadn’t even used him yet lol.

Was going to say contemptor mortis dread, but I think them being “too” good is more a case of their competition for heavy support being absolute trash than them being under costed.

 Ishagu wrote:
Yeah Marine shooting has to be more efficient because there's a lot less of it on the board.

You can get 8 Leman Russ tanks and hordes of troops in an AM list for example, as opposed to 2-3 tanks in an Astartes list.

Right? A leman russ battletank with lascannon that does 4.04 unsaved wounds to standard T7 vehicles costs only 164 points, while a las/autocannon predator that does 4.6 unsaved wounds costs an outrageous 180!

wait, that's really similar. Hang on...

You've either done your math wrong or started with the wrong buffs. Leman Russes played correctly average 9 Battlecannon shots per turn with the order/trait/whatever that lets them reroll the number of Grinding Advance shots, that's 8.36 unsaved wounds on a standard T7 target.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Yeah Marine shooting has to be more efficient because there's a lot less of it on the board.

You can get 8 Leman Russ tanks and hordes of troops in an AM list for example, as opposed to 2-3 tanks in an Astartes list.

Right? A leman russ battletank with lascannon that does 4.04 unsaved wounds to standard T7 vehicles costs only 164 points, while a las/autocannon predator that does 4.6 unsaved wounds costs an outrageous 180!

wait, that's really similar. Hang on...

A tank commander for 184 pts deals ~8 wounds to the same vehicle. No one uses normal LRB since they are bad. And its not a penalty that a TC takes up a HQ slot instead of a Heavy, its a bonus.

Relic battlecanon and/or pask makes that even better.

The Newman wrote:
You've either done your math wrong or started with the wrong buffs. Leman Russes played correctly average 9 Battlecannon shots per turn with the order/trait/whatever that lets them reroll the number of Grinding Advance shots, that's 8.36 unsaved wounds on a standard T7 target.

How do you get 9?

Even rerolling both number of shots, 4.25 is the average of shots per d6, meaning you get 8.5 shots.
Hitting on a 3+ RR1s gets you 6.61 hits.
Wounding on 3+ gets you 4.41 wounds.
Saving on a 5+ gets you 2.94 unsaved.
D3 damage gets you 5.88 damage.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Yeah Marine shooting has to be more efficient because there's a lot less of it on the board.

You can get 8 Leman Russ tanks and hordes of troops in an AM list for example, as opposed to 2-3 tanks in an Astartes list.

Right? A leman russ battletank with lascannon that does 4.04 unsaved wounds to standard T7 vehicles costs only 164 points, while a las/autocannon predator that does 4.6 unsaved wounds costs an outrageous 180!

wait, that's really similar. Hang on...

So T8 and the extra Wound are free under your math?

The Newman wrote:
You've either done your math wrong or started with the wrong buffs. Leman Russes played correctly average 9 Battlecannon shots per turn with the order/trait/whatever that lets them reroll the number of Grinding Advance shots, that's 8.36 unsaved wounds on a standard T7 target.

Because I knew if I included IH, RRs of 1, AP-4 lascannons in the comparison the marine player would cry foul and be like "b-but there's no guarantee he's IH and in Devastator!!!"

I just...took the unit being claimed by the person, and calculated the damage it would do and the points it would cost.

The claim that you can get like 8-9 tanks for guard and 2-3 for astartes is clearly just bunk.

Yeah, I will say that Leman Russes ('specially the Commanders) are out of whack relative to Predators.

Whether Predators should be made cheaper or Russes more expensive, one of those need to happen.

I just don't like bad math.