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So with the ability to make your own chapter, I thought about picking up space marines to make Angry Marines for fun games. The problem with primaris is that they don’t have all the close combat options as og marines, meaning I can’t say that the power boot I modeled is actually just a power glove.

The question I have is are tacticals good enough for pickup runs games or should I just wait till they decide to give primaris melee weapons?

Intercessors can take fists, chainswords and thunderhammers on their sgts, and even make them +1D relics for 1CP. You will never need more deadly ground infantry. And who knows maybe in the future GW will make primaris melee bikers or jump pack armed melee dudes.

Only non primaris stuff that is really worth taking are jump pack HQs.

Tacticals can still work fine. You have cheep bodies to shield special/heavy weapons, options on the sarges, etc. But honestly, if you are going angry, go primaris. 2A base for the boys, with 3 on the sarge. +1 for the charge, and anything else you can leverage.

As stated, intercessors have some nice options, and a good number of base attacks. Plenty enough to get some anger on the table. Primaris captains also have some good choices, not the full gamut, but enough to get some licks in.

For the non-troop picks there are less stompy/stabby options for the new kids. If you just want to put the boot in, Inceptors have the crushing charge rule. And Suppressors look to have the same footwear, but no rules to back it up.

Reivers have very “Meh” rules, but fit the theme like a glove.

You can always mix in some old units. A squad of Vanguard Vets still brings some chop to the table.

If your planning to run specialist squads that do a specific thing, run primaris.

If your planning to run generalist multi-role squads, run tacs.

Karol wrote:
Intercessors can take fists, chainswords and thunderhammers on their sgts, and even make them +1D relics for 1CP. You will never need more deadly ground infantry. And who knows maybe in the future GW will make primaris melee bikers or jump pack armed melee dudes.

Only non primaris stuff that is really worth taking are jump pack HQs.

Intercessor sergeants can take Power Swords too.

I don't know I'd go so far as just the jump pack HQs being worth it.

- I expect when Primaris do get assault-type troops they'll probably be armed similar to Shrike, with the price tag that entails, but Chainsword bikers are very much in the vicinity of faster, tougher Intercessors. They can even take all the same Sergeant weapon upgrades, although they don't leverage them quite as well.

- If the aesthetics of the unit don't bother you (a big if I'll admit) Centurions are designed very much like a Primaris unit. Assault Cents are like Aggressors that require less babysitting. Centurion Devastators are probably still too expensive outside of an IF list, but they can put out a frankly silly number of wounds with the right support.

- A raw stat comparison of Teminators to Aggressors makes GW's stance that classic Marines aren't going away look almost insultingly flimsy, but I've been playing them lately and I'm starting to think I was underestimating how much native DS is actually worth. Encirclement and it's equivalent in RG are very expensive strats, and sometimes DS has let me drop Terms into blind spots that I couldn't have reached with a more points-efficient unit.

- Speaking of which, everything I just said about Terminators applies to characters in Terminator armor.

- Company Vets with Storm Shields and Stormbolters cost about as much as an Intercessor, but W1 3++ is vulnerable to very different weapons from W2 3+. Sometimes it's worth it.

- And on the original topic, a basic Tac squad is 25 points cheaper than a basic Intercessor squad, and sometimes you really need to shave 25 points from a list. Sure, Scouts are only five points cheaper, but sometimes the 3+ is worth it.

Droo Pods are great, and those are non-Primaris. Grav-Cannons are great too, and you won't see those on Primaris either.

Edit: Also, you can just buy a squad of Tacticals, paint Veteran basges on them and call them Sternguard with special issue bolters, which are pretty good. The Tactical Doctrine will have them shooting bolters with a -3 AP on them. Pew pew!

Not only are they not worth the price of buying but they’re not worth the time to assemble and paint. You’re better off with scouts or intercessors depending on what role you need filled.

 Kommisar wrote:
Not only are they not worth the price of buying but they’re not worth the time to assemble and paint. You’re better off with scouts or intercessors depending on what role you need filled.

I want to argue with you about that, but it's not easy. If I had to do it over from the start of 8th I wouldn't have picked up any Classic Marines at all outside of bikes and Centurions, with the possible exception of a single Tac squad to use as Scouts since I think the Scout models have aged really poorly.

No point in starting Oldmarines now when they are very clearly going to be squatted in the near future.

They're worth getting if you want to play 30k with them but the 40k Marine rules are built to sell Primaris models. Maybe when 9th Edition comes out they'll think "hey, we got everyone to buy Primaris models by making old-Marines redundant, maybe we should make Primaris bad and old-Marines good this edition and do some new sculpts."

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're worth getting if you want to play 30k with them but the 40k Marine rules are built to sell Primaris models. Maybe when 9th Edition comes out they'll think "hey, we got everyone to buy Primaris models by making old-Marines redundant, maybe we should make Primaris bad and old-Marines good this edition and do some new sculpts."

That sounds a lot more plausible than I like.

If you really wanted to go all in on tactical marines you'd need about 80 of them as ultramarine's sucessors or imperial fist.

It can work. You really need the counts as in cover trait and probably expert marksmen for sucessors and imperial fist get by with storming on foot into range and generating buckets of dice.

The key advantage of the tactical is they take better advantage of +1 attack abilties and on death banner ability. Ultras can give them +2 attacks in a 6" aura. So for 1 turn at least you can have tacticals up to 4 attacks each and with a str5 from a chaplain dread.

Ultimately the intercessors are a better choice as the base ap-1 makes them a lot more versatile (can engage 2+ saves and 3+ in cover) and fit a lot more power into a smaller space.

I feel like there's a lot of mis-information about the usefulness of old marines here.

These are the relative point efficiencies of some tacs versus some primaris - damage given and damage taken all relative to the unit cost with only bolter weapons double tapping. Obviously the 30"/36" range is advantageous to Primaris, but they're not as efficient as Old marine configs at any job.



It isn't as simple as herp derp GW hates old marines.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I feel like there's a lot of mis-information about the usefulness of old marines here.

These are the relative point efficiencies of some tacs versus some primaris - damage given and damage taken all relative to the unit cost with only bolter weapons double tapping. Obviously the 30"/36" range is advantageous to Primaris, but they're not as efficient as Old marine configs at any job.



It isn't as simple as herp derp GW hates old marines.

That's why ultras tacs are best because they are always rapid firing turn 2. I've been thinking about massing bolter marines but that be such a waste to finish painting them. I already got 50 painted intercessors. The principle reason that intercessors out perform is due to range and they are easier to fit in auras too. In the end - tacs are going to outdamage intercessors point per point if in rangeand the outsuvive vs special weapons too. Tacs are still reasonably resistant to ap-0 anything - ESP if always in cover. However - that range disadvantage can not be overstated. It is a massive consideration. Good luck facing admech casteallan robots with tactical marines :(.

I'm going to have to come back later to do the math on the efficiencies, but when it comes to getting forward and taking objectives Autobolter Intercessors feel like the best troop choice available to Marines by a wide margin.

I want to write up a big rant on the topic but the tl:dnr version is DakkaDakka wants to boil everything down to points efficiency and I think that ignores too many things that matter on the table.

The Newman wrote:
I'm going to have to come back later to do the math on the efficiencies, but when it comes to getting forward and taking objectives Autobolter Intercessors feel like the best troop choice available to Marines by a wide margin.

I want to write up a big rant on the topic but the tl:dnr version is DakkaDakka wants to boil everything down to points efficiency and I think that ignores too many things that matter on the table.

Auto bolters are great. Fantastic even. I think everyone is even agreeing with you that intercessors are a better choice. It's just tacs aren't as worthless as people say they are now.

Points efficiency directly translates on the table.

Tacs, esp geared tacs, bleed points really fast.

Tacts are good for two things :

1-Kill team

2- 30k

I am a big fan of oldmarines, but even I must admit that the maths are against them.

Damn you Guilliman.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:
I'm going to have to come back later to do the math on the efficiencies, but when it comes to getting forward and taking objectives Autobolter Intercessors feel like the best troop choice available to Marines by a wide margin.

I want to write up a big rant on the topic but the tl:dnr version is DakkaDakka wants to boil everything down to points efficiency and I think that ignores too many things that matter on the table.

Auto bolters are great. Fantastic even. I think everyone is even agreeing with you that intercessors are a better choice. It's just tacs aren't as worthless as people say they are now.

I was responding to Daedalus81 and Xenomancer who both said that Tacs are more points-efficient than Intercessors, particularly under UM, and basically claimed Tacs are the better option.

The Newman wrote:

 Kommisar wrote:
Not only are they not worth the price of buying but they’re not worth the time to assemble and paint. You’re better off with scouts or intercessors depending on what role you need filled.

I want to argue with you about that, but it's not easy. If I had to do it over from the start of 8th I wouldn't have picked up any Classic Marines at all outside of bikes and Centurions, with the possible exception of a single Tac squad to use as Scouts since I think the Scout models have aged really poorly.

The metal ones still hold up!

Martel732 wrote:
Points efficiency directly translates on the table.

Tacs, esp geared tacs, bleed points really fast.

Don't give them gear except for a storm bolter. Survive turn 1. Shoot bolters. Get into combat preferably near a chaplain dread and chapter master. They are pretty good at this now with the successor trait to always count as in cover.

 Kommisar wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Kommisar wrote:
Not only are they not worth the price of buying but they’re not worth the time to assemble and paint. You’re better off with scouts or intercessors depending on what role you need filled.

I want to argue with you about that, but it's not easy. If I had to do it over from the start of 8th I wouldn't have picked up any Classic Marines at all outside of bikes and Centurions, with the possible exception of a single Tac squad to use as Scouts since I think the Scout models have aged really poorly.

The metal ones still hold up!

Truth. Old metal scouts are fantastic, and have stood the test of time.

The modern snipers are not horrible, but the CCW/Shotgun/Bolter scout box is dumpster fire of failure.

The Newman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:
I'm going to have to come back later to do the math on the efficiencies, but when it comes to getting forward and taking objectives Autobolter Intercessors feel like the best troop choice available to Marines by a wide margin.

I want to write up a big rant on the topic but the tl:dnr version is DakkaDakka wants to boil everything down to points efficiency and I think that ignores too many things that matter on the table.

Auto bolters are great. Fantastic even. I think everyone is even agreeing with you that intercessors are a better choice. It's just tacs aren't as worthless as people say they are now.

I was responding to Daedalus81 and Xenomancer who both said that Tacs are more points-efficient than Intercessors, particularly under UM, and basically claimed Tacs are the better option.

If you could manage to close the distance and take away the intercessors primary advantage of range - they would out brawl the intercessors is the point Daedalus was making. In game terms - +6 inch range and equal movement makes that almost impossible though. Range is the key issue here. Autobolters also have the excellent ability to advance and shoot 3 shots another huge advantage.

5 Primaris vs. Primaris - Tactical Doctrine

Bolt Rifles 10 x .666 x .5 x .666 = 2.21
2.21 total

----------------------------

5 Tactical w/Plasma, Combi-Plasma vs. Primaris - Tactical Doctrine

Bolters 6 x .666 x .5 x .5 = .999
Plasma Overcharged 4 x .666 x .83 x 2 = 4.4
5.4 total

---------------------------

Because of their gear options, well used Tacticals can out-damage the Primaris Marines, especially against heavier/more elite targets. Imo this all comes down to play style. If you want to march up and soak D1 wounds while dishing out reasonable firepower, Primaris are for you. But if you want to hit fast and hard, classics are the way to go.

Another example:
Bolt Rifles vs. T7 3+ Tactical Doctrine. 10 x .666 x .333 x .666 = 1.47

Lascannon vs. T7 3+ Devastators Doctrine .666 x .666 x 3.5 = 1.55
Bolters (same variables) .666 x .333 x .333 = .59

A single Lascannon out performes the entire Primaris Squad, even if the Primaris are rapid firing. In this example, the Tacticals can engage the vehicle better than the Primaris with just their Lascannon (and at greater range), and use their bolters to shoot nearby troops for even more efficiency.

Tacticals have poor staying power, though. And equipping them makes them even more fragile. They don't hit THAT hard.

Martel732 wrote:
Points efficiency directly translates on the table.

Tacs, esp geared tacs, bleed points really fast.

sometimes units have things going for it that mathhammer doesn't account for. take smash captains,

A space Marine Captain with a storm sheild and thunder hammer is 127 points
A space Marine Captain with a storm shield, thunderhammer and Jumppack is 146 points. now on paper purely doing the mathhammer, the first option is the cheaper, but EVERYONE agrees the jump pack is worth the extra points.

Yes, but the foot capt is less pts efficient imo

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but the foot capt is less pts efficient imo

That's his point, I think.

Points efficient implies a more meaningful analysis than simply price. At least to me.

The Newman wrote:
I'm going to have to come back later to do the math on the efficiencies, but when it comes to getting forward and taking objectives Autobolter Intercessors feel like the best troop choice available to Marines by a wide margin.

I want to write up a big rant on the topic but the tl:dnr version is DakkaDakka wants to boil everything down to points efficiency and I think that ignores too many things that matter on the table.

I got you fam (they aren't). ABRs come into AP at turn 3. Here's the thing - 3 shots means a bigger upper range of models killed, so, they are useful with some considerations in mind. Just like old marines are useful with some considerations in mind.

I don't want to boil things down to points efficiency. I want to dispel the absurd notion that old marines are useless. Do you know what would happen if I had masked the unit names? People would have picked Primaris as the ones doing the most damage, because the forum has a clear mental bias that Primaris are the best bar none.