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BrianDavion wrote: assault marines hit as hard as a tactical marine, dealing 2 S4 AP - attacks. this sounds like a defence of them but it's actually the PROBLEM.
tactical marines can reach out and begin dealing damage right from the start, the odds of them being wiped out before they can contribute any damage dealing is for the most part small (or at least smaller then assault marines who have to run forward and likely won't get into assault until T2 or T3). This BTW is a problem across the board with melee in 8th edition, basic melee troops are rarely worth it. look across the board at armies and assault troops are considered worthwhile under two specific circumstances.
1: they're dirt dirt dirt cheap and thus can be utterly disposable
or 2: they hit hard eneugh to justify bothering. (being durable helps in this case too obviously)
Shock attack is clearly GW attempting to address this with marine at least.
Honestly, assault marines without jumppack should not exist.
Also raptors share the same issues, maximum 3 attacks S4 is not particularry impressive.
Especially not for a model priced in the case of raptors about 30% more for mobility options compared to the foot csm.
Now if you could skip the melee weapons entirely and equip boltguns, that would make a difference, but i am anyways of the opinion that tac equivalents and tacs should've gotten the full equipment (bolter, boltpistol , chainsword)
Raptors not getting a points drop at the same time as warp talons is perplexing. Also they would benefit from greater weapon options. Or the onslaught rule from hh that night raptors get.
was the second time though, warp talons have now dropped twice, CSM have dropped once, Raptors? nope, even Havocs you could argue have dropped in points (got t5 instead of a real pts drop but still.) But frankly we don't know if it was actually intended for raptors to drop aswell, due to the rather "great" state CA pts booklet is in.
They've got to be a lot of errors judging by how long the faq is taking. It's been almost two months since release.
i mean that is by far not the only thing in the csm list.
Considering MoP and regular sorcerer dropped 10 pts.
Like, i get the MoP due to his very niche nature, the regular sorcer though with access to one of the better psy disciplines?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I don't know that they've avoided them. They just have other units in more monotone roles. Eliminators certainly washed over scout snipers (not that they were being used much). Helblasters are "devastators", but with really limited options.
I fully expect to see Primaris bikes and speeders at some point (disregarding that fake looking rumor).
Yeah. Limited options. They're kind of... specialized at not being specialized, if that makes any sense? Your hellblaster squad can be used against most anything, but it's not really good at any one specific target. You can't make a dedicated anti-vehicle hellblaster squad.
They may get bikes and speeders, but I'm reasonably sure that they're not going to just duplicate the roles of preexisting units.
Look at the jump troops. They're both shooting units -- which assault marines and vanguard veterans are not.
The melee capabilities of Assault Marines are virtually non-exsistent though. Your point with Vanguard makes sense though.
People always say that but Assault Marines are as good on the charge as Chainsword Bikers and they're surprisingly good at it. Durability is probably the thing making the difference though.
LOL no they're not, especially for the price difference where you get the MUCH more durable Bikers or the offensively better Vanguard. With the detachment system the battlefield role argument doesn't work either.
Sorry about being pendantic for a moment, but how is WS3, A3, S4, Ap- D1 on 15ppm Assault Marines worse than WS3, A3, S4, Ap- D1 on 23ppm Bikers on the charge?
For that matter what sense does it make to say I'm wrong about Assault Marines overall usefulness in melee because Bikes are more durable when I said exactly the same fething thing?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/23 10:26:38
Not Online!!! wrote: i mean that is by far not the only thing in the csm list.
Considering MoP and regular sorcerer dropped 10 pts.
Like, i get the MoP due to his very niche nature, the regular sorcer though with access to one of the better psy disciplines?
Didn't it bring them inline with the loyalist's librarians? Also why did loyalist drop pods get a drop along with new rules that allow for first turn ds in c:sm 2.0 but dreadclaws are still 115ppm? And why the feth does the kytan ravager have a higher base cost than a klos?
They've got to be a lot of errors judging by how long the faq is taking. It's been almost two months since release.
I'm under the suspicion that they're holding on to it until after LVO so they don't need to put points into the Big FAQ.
also quite possible, maybee they also make an honest attempt at fixing stuff.
Just as likely, but with the wierd and questionable changes i can't really estimate propperly what is a typo or fault and what isn't, well beyond the 55 neophyte
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
They've got to be a lot of errors judging by how long the faq is taking. It's been almost two months since release.
I'm under the suspicion that they're holding on to it until after LVO so they don't need to put points into the Big FAQ.
also quite possible, maybee they also make an honest attempt at fixing stuff.
Just as likely, but with the wierd and questionable changes i can't really estimate propperly what is a typo or fault and what isn't, well beyond the 55 neophyte
Theoretically Raptors should at least be 14 if we're following the jump pack logic. You could argue it is a typo, but it is so small a margin of error it doesn't matter much.
Talons got to where they are, because they have no ranged option and are forced to specific and fairly costly weapons, but Raptors will likely always have an upper bound that is more costly than standard CSM.
They've got to be a lot of errors judging by how long the faq is taking. It's been almost two months since release.
I'm under the suspicion that they're holding on to it until after LVO so they don't need to put points into the Big FAQ.
also quite possible, maybee they also make an honest attempt at fixing stuff.
Just as likely, but with the wierd and questionable changes i can't really estimate propperly what is a typo or fault and what isn't, well beyond the 55 neophyte
Theoretically Raptors should at least be 14 if we're following the jump pack logic. You could argue it is a typo, but it is so small a margin of error it doesn't matter much.
Talons got to where they are, because they have no ranged option and are forced to specific and fairly costly weapons, but Raptors will likely always have an upper bound that is more costly than standard CSM.
1ppm can make a difference on infantry squads. And if we go by the 3 points per jump pack precedent why not jump pack chosen for 15ppm? And don't tell me "no model no rules " because there isn't a chosen kit and how many different units can the guardsmen kit be used for nowadays?
And I'm really hoping they're using the extra time to fix more than just obvious typos. Especially fw and even more especially the hellforged/relic super heavys. Did somebody on the gw rules team lose to many games to fellblades in 7th or what?
And I still don't get the problem of sorcerers costing the same as librarians. How many psychic spells and disciplines do loyalists have access to now?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/23 14:50:46
I don't know that they've avoided them. They just have other units in more monotone roles. Eliminators certainly washed over scout snipers (not that they were being used much). Helblasters are "devastators", but with really limited options.
I fully expect to see Primaris bikes and speeders at some point (disregarding that fake looking rumor).
Yeah. Limited options. They're kind of... specialized at not being specialized, if that makes any sense? Your hellblaster squad can be used against most anything, but it's not really good at any one specific target. You can't make a dedicated anti-vehicle hellblaster squad.
They may get bikes and speeders, but I'm reasonably sure that they're not going to just duplicate the roles of preexisting units.
Look at the jump troops. They're both shooting units -- which assault marines and vanguard veterans are not.
The melee capabilities of Assault Marines are virtually non-exsistent though. Your point with Vanguard makes sense though.
People always say that but Assault Marines are as good on the charge as Chainsword Bikers and they're surprisingly good at it. Durability is probably the thing making the difference though.
LOL no they're not, especially for the price difference where you get the MUCH more durable Bikers or the offensively better Vanguard. With the detachment system the battlefield role argument doesn't work either.
Sorry about being pendantic for a moment, but how is WS3, A3, S4, Ap- D1 on 15ppm Assault Marines worse than WS3, A3, S4, Ap- D1 on 23ppm Bikers on the charge?
For that matter what sense does it make to say I'm wrong about Assault Marines overall usefulness in melee because Bikes are more durable when I said exactly the same fething thing?
Bikers also have 4 Bolt Shots from any distance and the ability to close the gap pretty quick. So there's that. You can get Vanguard or Bikers. Assault Marines don't have a niche.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
And I still don't get the problem of sorcerers costing the same as librarians. How many psychic spells and disciplines do loyalists have access to now?
I personally have no problem with sorcerers/libs at 80. I just get a little annoyed at an exalted paying 32 points for 1 wound, 1 attack, and reroll 1s to hit.
Mostly. You could run 5 man JP - melta bombs & fist / eviscerator for 100 points. Doesn't hurt to lose that much, its small enough to hide well, and you will out fight most equally pointed units.
Both RG and BT offer layers that could make them more interesting in a forward leaning army. Nobody will really bother though, because you won't see them tackling things like centurions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/23 15:19:57
And I still don't get the problem of sorcerers costing the same as librarians. How many psychic spells and disciplines do loyalists have access to now?
I personally have no problem with sorcerers/libs at 80. I just get a little annoyed at an exalted paying 32 points for 1 wound, 1 attack, and reroll 1s to hit.
I feel you. Try paying 390 points for 3+bs, 9ld, t9, and a 2+ save vs 4+bs, 8ld, t8, and a 3+ save. (That's a fellblade vs a baneblade btw).
I don't know that they've avoided them. They just have other units in more monotone roles. Eliminators certainly washed over scout snipers (not that they were being used much). Helblasters are "devastators", but with really limited options.
I fully expect to see Primaris bikes and speeders at some point (disregarding that fake looking rumor).
Yeah. Limited options. They're kind of... specialized at not being specialized, if that makes any sense? Your hellblaster squad can be used against most anything, but it's not really good at any one specific target. You can't make a dedicated anti-vehicle hellblaster squad.
They may get bikes and speeders, but I'm reasonably sure that they're not going to just duplicate the roles of preexisting units.
Look at the jump troops. They're both shooting units -- which assault marines and vanguard veterans are not.
The melee capabilities of Assault Marines are virtually non-exsistent though. Your point with Vanguard makes sense though.
People always say that but Assault Marines are as good on the charge as Chainsword Bikers and they're surprisingly good at it. Durability is probably the thing making the difference though.
LOL no they're not, especially for the price difference where you get the MUCH more durable Bikers or the offensively better Vanguard. With the detachment system the battlefield role argument doesn't work either.
Sorry about being pendantic for a moment, but how is WS3, A3, S4, Ap- D1 on 15ppm Assault Marines worse than WS3, A3, S4, Ap- D1 on 23ppm Bikers on the charge?
For that matter what sense does it make to say I'm wrong about Assault Marines overall usefulness in melee because Bikes are more durable when I said exactly the same fething thing?
Bikers also have 4 Bolt Shots from any distance and the ability to close the gap pretty quick. So there's that. You can get Vanguard or Bikers. Assault Marines don't have a niche.
We weren't talking about shooting though, we were talking about melee. AMs outnumber Bikes 3:2 per point so they're trading 3:4 on wounds for 6/9 : 4/6 on attacks, and AMs get their Pistols for the rare melee that lasts more than a turn, and they can leave melee without penalty if they live long enough.
If we were talking about shooting then neither unit belongs on the table, Scout Bikes are laughably better than either of them. (Although I've come around to believing that native DS is more valuable than it tends to get credit for, and dropping in with 11" Flamers is something Vanguard Vets and Scout Bikes can't do and normal Bikes can do but are probably better off using Plasma.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/23 15:47:11
And I still don't get the problem of sorcerers costing the same as librarians. How many psychic spells and disciplines do loyalists have access to now?
I personally have no problem with sorcerers/libs at 80. I just get a little annoyed at an exalted paying 32 points for 1 wound, 1 attack, and reroll 1s to hit.
I feel you. Try paying 390 points for 3+bs, 9ld, t9, and a 2+ save vs 4+bs, 8ld, t8, and a 3+ save. (That's a fellblade vs a baneblade btw).
This may sort you (and they were even so kind as to feature a storm cannon levi for the article):
Since the release of the Forge World indexes a couple of years ago, Warhammer 40,000 has changed a lot. While the indexes were a great reference resource, we want to give you something even better – which is why the Warhammer 40,000 studio embarked on a project to bring you a series of all-new books with updated rules for these units and armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/24 05:23:49
And I still don't get the problem of sorcerers costing the same as librarians. How many psychic spells and disciplines do loyalists have access to now?
I personally have no problem with sorcerers/libs at 80. I just get a little annoyed at an exalted paying 32 points for 1 wound, 1 attack, and reroll 1s to hit.
I feel you. Try paying 390 points for 3+bs, 9ld, t9, and a 2+ save vs 4+bs, 8ld, t8, and a 3+ save. (That's a fellblade vs a baneblade btw).
This may sort you (and they were even so kind as to feature a storm cannon levi for the article):
Since the release of the Forge World indexes a couple of years ago, Warhammer 40,000 has changed a lot. While the indexes were a great reference resource, we want to give you something even better – which is why the Warhammer 40,000 studio embarked on a project to bring you a series of all-new books with updated rules for these units and armies.
And I still don't get the problem of sorcerers costing the same as librarians. How many psychic spells and disciplines do loyalists have access to now?
I personally have no problem with sorcerers/libs at 80. I just get a little annoyed at an exalted paying 32 points for 1 wound, 1 attack, and reroll 1s to hit.
Mostly. You could run 5 man JP - melta bombs & fist / eviscerator for 100 points. Doesn't hurt to lose that much, its small enough to hide well, and you will out fight most equally pointed units.
Both RG and BT offer layers that could make them more interesting in a forward leaning army. Nobody will really bother though, because you won't see them tackling things like centurions.
Two big reasons to take ASM over Bikers:
1. For not that many points, you get 5 highly mobile PA bodies. Enough to to tie up a shooty or support squad. It won't take on a deathstar or a dedicated CC unit, but they're quite the bullies. And they can maneuver through any terrain, helping them get into position - 'Fly' is incredible on terrain-dense boards. And they have a much smaller footprint - so LOS is a lot easier, cover is a lot easier, and fitting in a blindspot is a lot easier. They're just a lot more adaptable and capable of dealing with dense terrain. Good luck getting Bikers to move through a city block or such.
2. They are freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs. How can you not want freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs?
On a more serious note, Bikers and ASM fill different variants of a similar niche: Bikers are bullies who cover open ground fast. ASM are bullies who cover any ground fast. They're different tools for a similar but different job. Like a maul and a fencepost driver. You can do just about any job that requires one with the other, but not as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/24 15:12:10
And I still don't get the problem of sorcerers costing the same as librarians. How many psychic spells and disciplines do loyalists have access to now?
I personally have no problem with sorcerers/libs at 80. I just get a little annoyed at an exalted paying 32 points for 1 wound, 1 attack, and reroll 1s to hit.
Mostly. You could run 5 man JP - melta bombs & fist / eviscerator for 100 points. Doesn't hurt to lose that much, its small enough to hide well, and you will out fight most equally pointed units.
Both RG and BT offer layers that could make them more interesting in a forward leaning army. Nobody will really bother though, because you won't see them tackling things like centurions.
Two big reasons to take ASM over Bikers:
1. For not that many points, you get 5 highly mobile PA bodies. Enough to to tie up a shooty or support squad. It won't take on a deathstar or a dedicated CC unit, but they're quite the bullies. And they can maneuver through any terrain, helping them get into position - 'Fly' is incredible on terrain-dense boards. And they have a much smaller footprint - so LOS is a lot easier, cover is a lot easier, and fitting in a blindspot is a lot easier. They're just a lot more adaptable and capable of dealing with dense terrain. Good luck getting Bikers to move through a city block or such.
2. They are freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs. How can you not want freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs?
On a more serious note, Bikers and ASM fill different variants of a similar niche: Bikers are bullies who cover open ground fast. ASM are bullies who cover any ground fast. They're different tools for a similar but different job. Like a maul and a fencepost driver. You can do just about any job that requires one with the other, but not as well.
But then there's not a reason to take them over Vanguard. That's the grand point that's being missed. It would be one thing if there were any reason to list being able to take Flamers or Eviscerators as a benefit, but basic Flamers are still bad for the points and only become useable via a Successor Tactic, and Eviscerators are still only being bought for a one attack model.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
And I still don't get the problem of sorcerers costing the same as librarians. How many psychic spells and disciplines do loyalists have access to now?
I personally have no problem with sorcerers/libs at 80. I just get a little annoyed at an exalted paying 32 points for 1 wound, 1 attack, and reroll 1s to hit.
Mostly. You could run 5 man JP - melta bombs & fist / eviscerator for 100 points. Doesn't hurt to lose that much, its small enough to hide well, and you will out fight most equally pointed units.
Both RG and BT offer layers that could make them more interesting in a forward leaning army. Nobody will really bother though, because you won't see them tackling things like centurions.
Two big reasons to take ASM over Bikers:
1. For not that many points, you get 5 highly mobile PA bodies. Enough to to tie up a shooty or support squad. It won't take on a deathstar or a dedicated CC unit, but they're quite the bullies. And they can maneuver through any terrain, helping them get into position - 'Fly' is incredible on terrain-dense boards. And they have a much smaller footprint - so LOS is a lot easier, cover is a lot easier, and fitting in a blindspot is a lot easier. They're just a lot more adaptable and capable of dealing with dense terrain. Good luck getting Bikers to move through a city block or such.
2. They are freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs. How can you not want freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs?
On a more serious note, Bikers and ASM fill different variants of a similar niche: Bikers are bullies who cover open ground fast. ASM are bullies who cover any ground fast. They're different tools for a similar but different job. Like a maul and a fencepost driver. You can do just about any job that requires one with the other, but not as well.
But then there's not a reason to take them over Vanguard. That's the grand point that's being missed. It would be one thing if there were any reason to list being able to take Flamers or Eviscerators as a benefit, but basic Flamers are still bad for the points and only become useable via a Successor Tactic, and Eviscerators are still only being bought for a one attack model.
"There's no reason to take them over Vanguard" is a stupid reason to use Bikes instead of ASM in such conditions. Now, maybe you'd want to use Vanguard instead of Bikes in those situations, but that's an entirely *different* discussion.
Vanguard will usually outperform ASM. From a purely mechancial standpoint, ASM are rarely the superior option (although there are some very solid non-mechanical reasons), but there are some niches. Against most targets, VV and ASM with the same kit have the exact same effect. They both fail miserably against any CC or anvil unit. They both bully almost exactly the same targets with very similar results. The VV get a few more kills, for a few more points. So if you're really short on points, you might want ASM. For min naked squads, you're talking something like killing 4 Guardsmen instead of 3 on the charge. But in every other metric they perform identically. They move the same. Tie up units the same. Die the same. You don't take this squad - VV or ASM - to kill units, you take them to bully/skirmish. So paying some extra points to kill 1 guardsmen in a unit not intended to kill things isn't all that much of a win.
Also, if you're swinging 1A with the Eviscerator, you're using ASM wrong. It means you're getting charged, not charging. Which should not be done with VV or ASM.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/24 17:17:54
But then there's not a reason to take them over Vanguard. That's the grand point that's being missed. It would be one thing if there were any reason to list being able to take Flamers or Eviscerators as a benefit, but basic Flamers are still bad for the points and only become useable via a Successor Tactic, and Eviscerators are still only being bought for a one attack model.
Slightly cheaper and slotting are the only space they can occupy. There's probably a very narrow set of lists that would care. I don't know what else could change that would get them on the table more though.
But then there's not a reason to take them over Vanguard. That's the grand point that's being missed. It would be one thing if there were any reason to list being able to take Flamers or Eviscerators as a benefit, but basic Flamers are still bad for the points and only become useable via a Successor Tactic, and Eviscerators are still only being bought for a one attack model.
Slightly cheaper and slotting are the only space they can occupy. There's probably a very narrow set of lists that would care. I don't know what else could change that would get them on the table more though.
With the current detachment system, battlefield role isn't a good argument. They're also REALLY not that much cheaper as they'll always require some upgrade, whereas Vanguard are content just taking dual Chainswords.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though with A3 base you can get away with buying the Sergeant something more blingy.
And I still don't get the problem of sorcerers costing the same as librarians. How many psychic spells and disciplines do loyalists have access to now?
I personally have no problem with sorcerers/libs at 80. I just get a little annoyed at an exalted paying 32 points for 1 wound, 1 attack, and reroll 1s to hit.
Mostly. You could run 5 man JP - melta bombs & fist / eviscerator for 100 points. Doesn't hurt to lose that much, its small enough to hide well, and you will out fight most equally pointed units.
Both RG and BT offer layers that could make them more interesting in a forward leaning army. Nobody will really bother though, because you won't see them tackling things like centurions.
Two big reasons to take ASM over Bikers:
1. For not that many points, you get 5 highly mobile PA bodies. Enough to to tie up a shooty or support squad. It won't take on a deathstar or a dedicated CC unit, but they're quite the bullies. And they can maneuver through any terrain, helping them get into position - 'Fly' is incredible on terrain-dense boards. And they have a much smaller footprint - so LOS is a lot easier, cover is a lot easier, and fitting in a blindspot is a lot easier. They're just a lot more adaptable and capable of dealing with dense terrain. Good luck getting Bikers to move through a city block or such.
2. They are freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs. How can you not want freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs?
On a more serious note, Bikers and ASM fill different variants of a similar niche: Bikers are bullies who cover open ground fast. ASM are bullies who cover any ground fast. They're different tools for a similar but different job. Like a maul and a fencepost driver. You can do just about any job that requires one with the other, but not as well.
But then there's not a reason to take them over Vanguard. That's the grand point that's being missed. It would be one thing if there were any reason to list being able to take Flamers or Eviscerators as a benefit, but basic Flamers are still bad for the points and only become useable via a Successor Tactic, and Eviscerators are still only being bought for a one attack model.
"There's no reason to take them over Vanguard" is a stupid reason to use Bikes instead of ASM in such conditions. Now, maybe you'd want to use Vanguard instead of Bikes in those situations, but that's an entirely *different* discussion.
Vanguard will usually outperform ASM. From a purely mechancial standpoint, ASM are rarely the superior option (although there are some very solid non-mechanical reasons), but there are some niches. Against most targets, VV and ASM with the same kit have the exact same effect. They both fail miserably against any CC or anvil unit. They both bully almost exactly the same targets with very similar results. The VV get a few more kills, for a few more points. So if you're really short on points, you might want ASM. For min naked squads, you're talking something like killing 4 Guardsmen instead of 3 on the charge. But in every other metric they perform identically. They move the same. Tie up units the same. Die the same. You don't take this squad - VV or ASM - to kill units, you take them to bully/skirmish. So paying some extra points to kill 1 guardsmen in a unit not intended to kill things isn't all that much of a win.
Also, if you're swinging 1A with the Eviscerator, you're using ASM wrong. It means you're getting charged, not charging. Which should not be done with VV or ASM.
Few more kills for a few more points is precisely the problem. Vanguard are not much more points for double the attacks (let's be real, the Bolt Pistol is basically worthless) and ability to be more flexible in equipment. Flamers are a non-choice and so are Eviscerators. You're paying 18 or so points for 2 hits on average first fight. With rerolls, the Captain is doing more by himself for the points!
And keep in mind Vanguard aren't exactly making noise either, and Bikers being mostly taken for the Bolt shots, and of course Scout Bikers do all that much better.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/24 17:34:35
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
But then there's not a reason to take them over Vanguard. That's the grand point that's being missed. It would be one thing if there were any reason to list being able to take Flamers or Eviscerators as a benefit, but basic Flamers are still bad for the points and only become useable via a Successor Tactic, and Eviscerators are still only being bought for a one attack model.
Slightly cheaper and slotting are the only space they can occupy. There's probably a very narrow set of lists that would care. I don't know what else could change that would get them on the table more though.
With the current detachment system, battlefield role isn't a good argument. They're also REALLY not that much cheaper as they'll always require some upgrade, whereas Vanguard are content just taking dual Chainswords.
Not much cheaper, but with the same kit they're not much killier either. If you want a blender, ASM aren't even in the running, but for a cheap 5 Pistol/Chainsword bully? It's only a couple more points for 33% more killy. But 33% more of "almost 0" is still "almost 0".
Though with A3 base you can get away with buying the Sergeant something more blingy.
Certainly, if you want a bigger/stronger bully than bare-minimum, paying more-than-minimum can give you more. Not sure why that needs to be pointed out.
And I still don't get the problem of sorcerers costing the same as librarians. How many psychic spells and disciplines do loyalists have access to now?
I personally have no problem with sorcerers/libs at 80. I just get a little annoyed at an exalted paying 32 points for 1 wound, 1 attack, and reroll 1s to hit.
Mostly. You could run 5 man JP - melta bombs & fist / eviscerator for 100 points. Doesn't hurt to lose that much, its small enough to hide well, and you will out fight most equally pointed units.
Both RG and BT offer layers that could make them more interesting in a forward leaning army. Nobody will really bother though, because you won't see them tackling things like centurions.
Two big reasons to take ASM over Bikers:
1. For not that many points, you get 5 highly mobile PA bodies. Enough to to tie up a shooty or support squad. It won't take on a deathstar or a dedicated CC unit, but they're quite the bullies. And they can maneuver through any terrain, helping them get into position - 'Fly' is incredible on terrain-dense boards. And they have a much smaller footprint - so LOS is a lot easier, cover is a lot easier, and fitting in a blindspot is a lot easier. They're just a lot more adaptable and capable of dealing with dense terrain. Good luck getting Bikers to move through a city block or such.
2. They are freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs. How can you not want freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs?
On a more serious note, Bikers and ASM fill different variants of a similar niche: Bikers are bullies who cover open ground fast. ASM are bullies who cover any ground fast. They're different tools for a similar but different job. Like a maul and a fencepost driver. You can do just about any job that requires one with the other, but not as well.
But then there's not a reason to take them over Vanguard. That's the grand point that's being missed. It would be one thing if there were any reason to list being able to take Flamers or Eviscerators as a benefit, but basic Flamers are still bad for the points and only become useable via a Successor Tactic, and Eviscerators are still only being bought for a one attack model.
"There's no reason to take them over Vanguard" is a stupid reason to use Bikes instead of ASM in such conditions. Now, maybe you'd want to use Vanguard instead of Bikes in those situations, but that's an entirely *different* discussion.
Vanguard will usually outperform ASM. From a purely mechancial standpoint, ASM are rarely the superior option (although there are some very solid non-mechanical reasons), but there are some niches. Against most targets, VV and ASM with the same kit have the exact same effect. They both fail miserably against any CC or anvil unit. They both bully almost exactly the same targets with very similar results. The VV get a few more kills, for a few more points. So if you're really short on points, you might want ASM. For min naked squads, you're talking something like killing 4 Guardsmen instead of 3 on the charge. But in every other metric they perform identically. They move the same. Tie up units the same. Die the same. You don't take this squad - VV or ASM - to kill units, you take them to bully/skirmish. So paying some extra points to kill 1 guardsmen in a unit not intended to kill things isn't all that much of a win.
Also, if you're swinging 1A with the Eviscerator, you're using ASM wrong. It means you're getting charged, not charging. Which should not be done with VV or ASM.
Few more kills for a few more points is precisely the problem. Vanguard are not much more points for double the attacks (let's be real, the Bolt Pistol is basically worthless)
Min naked ASM squad: 11 attacks on the charge
Min naked VV squad: 15 attacks on the charge
Unless I fail at math, 15 is not double 11. 20 after dropping the Bolt Pistols is kinda close to double, but you're trading away 5 equal attacks from the pistols before your charge (with both upsides/downsides), so it's more 16 : 20 - still not double.
And, all that said, double "almost no killiness" is still "Not a lot of killiness". You go from killing ~4 Guardsmen to killing ~6 Guardsmen. Congratulations? Not what you take naked ASM/VV for. You take them to tie stuff up and skirmish. They move the same. They die the same. They tie up the same. So both ASM and VV do just as well at what you take them for.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/24 17:56:12
If flamers were better this ASM vs. Vanguard discussion wouldn't exist. Assault Marines used to butcher GEQ with their flamers, and made great little terror squads.
Maybe flamers should just do a flat number of hits. If basic flamers were assault 4, they would be really scary to chaff units. Specialy for units that can take two and a combi flamer on the sgt.
although post PA and the marine codex, it would probably end up as something OP.
d6 hits is bad though. maybe they should have 2d3 hits per shot?
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
But then there's not a reason to take them over Vanguard. That's the grand point that's being missed. It would be one thing if there were any reason to list being able to take Flamers or Eviscerators as a benefit, but basic Flamers are still bad for the points and only become useable via a Successor Tactic, and Eviscerators are still only being bought for a one attack model.
Slightly cheaper and slotting are the only space they can occupy. There's probably a very narrow set of lists that would care. I don't know what else could change that would get them on the table more though.
With the current detachment system, battlefield role isn't a good argument. They're also REALLY not that much cheaper as they'll always require some upgrade, whereas Vanguard are content just taking dual Chainswords.
Not much cheaper, but with the same kit they're not much killier either. If you want a blender, ASM aren't even in the running, but for a cheap 5 Pistol/Chainsword bully? It's only a couple more points for 33% more killy. But 33% more of "almost 0" is still "almost 0".
Though with A3 base you can get away with buying the Sergeant something more blingy.
Certainly, if you want a bigger/stronger bully than bare-minimum, paying more-than-minimum can give you more. Not sure why that needs to be pointed out.
And I still don't get the problem of sorcerers costing the same as librarians. How many psychic spells and disciplines do loyalists have access to now?
I personally have no problem with sorcerers/libs at 80. I just get a little annoyed at an exalted paying 32 points for 1 wound, 1 attack, and reroll 1s to hit.
Mostly. You could run 5 man JP - melta bombs & fist / eviscerator for 100 points. Doesn't hurt to lose that much, its small enough to hide well, and you will out fight most equally pointed units.
Both RG and BT offer layers that could make them more interesting in a forward leaning army. Nobody will really bother though, because you won't see them tackling things like centurions.
Two big reasons to take ASM over Bikers:
1. For not that many points, you get 5 highly mobile PA bodies. Enough to to tie up a shooty or support squad. It won't take on a deathstar or a dedicated CC unit, but they're quite the bullies. And they can maneuver through any terrain, helping them get into position - 'Fly' is incredible on terrain-dense boards. And they have a much smaller footprint - so LOS is a lot easier, cover is a lot easier, and fitting in a blindspot is a lot easier. They're just a lot more adaptable and capable of dealing with dense terrain. Good luck getting Bikers to move through a city block or such.
2. They are freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs. How can you not want freaking marines with freaking rockets strapped to their backs?
On a more serious note, Bikers and ASM fill different variants of a similar niche: Bikers are bullies who cover open ground fast. ASM are bullies who cover any ground fast. They're different tools for a similar but different job. Like a maul and a fencepost driver. You can do just about any job that requires one with the other, but not as well.
But then there's not a reason to take them over Vanguard. That's the grand point that's being missed. It would be one thing if there were any reason to list being able to take Flamers or Eviscerators as a benefit, but basic Flamers are still bad for the points and only become useable via a Successor Tactic, and Eviscerators are still only being bought for a one attack model.
"There's no reason to take them over Vanguard" is a stupid reason to use Bikes instead of ASM in such conditions. Now, maybe you'd want to use Vanguard instead of Bikes in those situations, but that's an entirely *different* discussion.
Vanguard will usually outperform ASM. From a purely mechancial standpoint, ASM are rarely the superior option (although there are some very solid non-mechanical reasons), but there are some niches. Against most targets, VV and ASM with the same kit have the exact same effect. They both fail miserably against any CC or anvil unit. They both bully almost exactly the same targets with very similar results. The VV get a few more kills, for a few more points. So if you're really short on points, you might want ASM. For min naked squads, you're talking something like killing 4 Guardsmen instead of 3 on the charge. But in every other metric they perform identically. They move the same. Tie up units the same. Die the same. You don't take this squad - VV or ASM - to kill units, you take them to bully/skirmish. So paying some extra points to kill 1 guardsmen in a unit not intended to kill things isn't all that much of a win.
Also, if you're swinging 1A with the Eviscerator, you're using ASM wrong. It means you're getting charged, not charging. Which should not be done with VV or ASM.
Few more kills for a few more points is precisely the problem. Vanguard are not much more points for double the attacks (let's be real, the Bolt Pistol is basically worthless)
Min naked ASM squad: 11 attacks on the charge
Min naked VV squad: 15 attacks on the charge
Unless I fail at math, 15 is not double 11. 20 after dropping the Bolt Pistols is kinda close to double, but you're trading away 5 equal attacks from the pistols before your charge (with both upsides/downsides), so it's more 16 : 20 - still not double.
And, all that said, double "almost no killiness" is still "Not a lot of killiness". You go from killing ~4 Guardsmen to killing ~6 Guardsmen. Congratulations? Not what you take naked ASM/VV for. You take them to tie stuff up and skirmish. They move the same. They die the same. They tie up the same. So both ASM and VV do just as well at what you take them for.
1. There's no upside to the pistol. We can pretend there is one, but if that were true, Vanguard wouldn't be ditching them the moment they can, nor would Biker variants do the same. It's because Pistols suck. That's just the nature of the game. Were falling back much harder, then maybe they'd have merit.
2. The numbers are off. On the charge, Assault Marines will have 16 attacks. Assuming all Chainswords, Vanguard have 26. Taking the numbers you presented as well, a minimal investment to kill 8 more points of Infantry (which is more than the invested cost by the way) is a significant improvement.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Vanguard can no longer take two Chainswords. They get one melee weapon and one pistol.
Bikers ditch the pistol because they already have better guns.
But if you're going to measure by points killed, you might be better off spending the few points saved on ASM (5 or 10, no codex atm) on a Plasma Pistol or Melta Bombs. Because killing an elite trooper or knocking some wounds off a vehicle will net you more points than killing another 2 GEQ.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/25 01:29:51
