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Its really hard to give up that wound. Esp for ba who want to get close.

Martel732 wrote:
Its really hard to give up that wound. Esp for ba who want to get close.

Which is fair, and you can do that.

The thing is I can pack so much D2+ into a list that I'm okay giving up the extra wound for deployment flexibility and guaranteed alpha strikes (Drop Pods).

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Its really hard to give up that wound. Esp for ba who want to get close.

Which is fair, and you can do that.

The thing is I can pack so much D2+ into a list that I'm okay giving up the extra wound for deployment flexibility and guaranteed alpha strikes (Drop Pods).

Oh - I forgot that ABRs are still 1 point so those stats are a bit worse.

In any case, yes, old marines can alpha strike the gak out of primaris with high AP multi-damage weapons to a point where the wound advantage disappears. Just because you don't see units on top tables does not always mean they're bad units.

But what about the field? Not all opponents are primaris. Old marines crumble to mortals so easily.

Martel732 wrote:
But what about the field? Not all opponents are primaris. Old marines crumble to mortals so easily.

As someone that runs a list of 60+ off the less efficent Chaos variation.

No,infact they don't.

Infact they are one of the best lists to really put the face in the mud of horde Players you seem so much to struggle against.

How does that work exactly?

Martel732 wrote:
How does that work exactly?

Simple, 24" is the average engagement range of chaff.

Bolter discipline doubles your output above theirs.
Auras affect multiple of your units.
On average to force a 10 man squads to flee or be irrelevant you need to kill about 5-6 ,meaning that half a 10 squad or a 5 man squad should suffice.
Loyalists would of course pick allways 5 man squads due to not really having the necessary stratagems requireing bigger squads so you then also gain further durability due to that.
Prolong the fire fight, engage on your terms via smart moves and use of terrain.
Add in a hammer and that is the whole trick to make this style of list work.

Ofc csm got other helping tools for such a playstyle.( Red corsairs especially are hillarious because 2 battalions=16 cp fueling your stratagems to the Limit. Also recycling is hillarious.)

Martel732 wrote:
But what about the field? Not all opponents are primaris. Old marines crumble to mortals so easily.

The field is solving for Primaris - disintegrators, night spinners, etc. There's an upper limit to the number of bullets/smites/etc that can be in range of desired targets. 3 Nightspinners can theoretically kill 9.3 Primaris the whole game, but only 9.3 old marines.

None of this means old marines are what you should use, but they shouldn't be what you avoid, because of words from paranoid people on the forums.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Newman wrote:
I'm going to have to come back later to do the math on the efficiencies, but when it comes to getting forward and taking objectives Autobolter Intercessors feel like the best troop choice available to Marines by a wide margin.

I want to write up a big rant on the topic but the tl:dnr version is DakkaDakka wants to boil everything down to points efficiency and I think that ignores too many things that matter on the table.

I got you fam (they aren't). ABRs come into AP at turn 3. Here's the thing - 3 shots means a bigger upper range of models killed, so, they are useful with some considerations in mind. Just like old marines are useful with some considerations in mind.

I don't want to boil things down to points efficiency. I want to dispel the absurd notion that old marines are useless. Do you know what would happen if I had masked the unit names? People would have picked Primaris as the ones doing the most damage, because the forum has a clear mental bias that Primaris are the best bar none.

You just said that people would choose the Primaris units if you masked the names so they wouldn't know which unit was Primaris because they're biased in favor of Primaris. You can't possibly have said that correctly.

(If you meant it the way I think you meant it then I have to disagree. I started with pure classic Marines in 8th because I really didn't like the Primaris units and the more I gave the Primaris units a chance the less use I had for the classic Marines, but I can't be sure what you actually meant.)

Martel732 wrote:
How does that work exactly?

A bajillion Bolter shots, plus bonus attacks now in the first round of CC.

The Newman wrote:

You just said that people would choose the Primaris units if you masked the names so they wouldn't know which unit was Primaris because they're biased in favor of Primaris. You can't possibly have said that correctly.

(If you meant it the way I think you meant it then I have to disagree. I started with pure classic Marines in 8th because I really didn't like the Primaris units and the more I gave the Primaris units a chance the less use I had for the classic Marines, but I can't be sure what you actually meant.)

Sorry, to rephrase - in a blind test people always pick the biggest numbers as being associated with Primaris (it happened a lot in a previous such experiment).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

You just said that people would choose the Primaris units if you masked the names so they wouldn't know which unit was Primaris because they're biased in favor of Primaris. You can't possibly have said that correctly.

(If you meant it the way I think you meant it then I have to disagree. I started with pure classic Marines in 8th because I really didn't like the Primaris units and the more I gave the Primaris units a chance the less use I had for the classic Marines, but I can't be sure what you actually meant.)

Sorry, to rephrase - in a blind test people always pick the biggest numbers as being associated with Primaris (it happened a lot in a previous such experiment).

Ah. Can't argue with that.

I do think it's worth pointing out that which Troop selections are worth owning is a very "what's the best way to arrange these deck chairs" sort of discussion. The whole reason GW increased the CP generation on Battalions and Brigades was basically bribing Marine players to actually use any troops.

i still find blue tide works decently well, basically pure tactical marines with a few hqs for buffs. added bonus, you can get tacticals pretty cheap used. sub $20 for 10 man squads painted or unpainted and shipped on ebay.

You wanted to pick up a squad of models to make some silly "Angry marines" for a bit of fun but you want to know if they will be competitive enough? I don't think you fully understand the concept of "A bit of fun". Buy the models you like the look of.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Points efficiency directly translates on the table.

Tacs, esp geared tacs, bleed points really fast.

Don't give them gear except for a storm bolter. Survive turn 1. Shoot bolters. Get into combat preferably near a chaplain dread and chapter master. They are pretty good at this now with the successor trait to always count as in cover.

At that point just use Intercessors.

Tacticals can't properly do a job so they're pointless. Scouts and Intercessors (and Infiltrators are a decent pick) are all you need. If you want special weapon saturation or Heavy weapons, let other units in the codex take care of that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I feel like there's a lot of mis-information about the usefulness of old marines here.

It also seems pretty clear to me that GW has made a point of not having Primaris units take over the roles of old marines. That's why there are no bikers, no devastator equivalents, no jump back/deep striking assault units (unless you count reivers) in the Primaris range. It's not that GW hasn't gotten around to them yet, it's that they have deliberately avoided them..

Alcibiades wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I feel like there's a lot of mis-information about the usefulness of old marines here.

It also seems pretty clear to me that GW has made a point of not having Primaris units take over the roles of old marines. That's why there are no bikers, no devastator equivalents, no jump back/deep striking assault units (unless you count reivers) in the Primaris range. It's not that GW hasn't gotten around to them yet, it's that they have deliberately avoided them..

I don't know that they've avoided them. They just have other units in more monotone roles. Eliminators certainly washed over scout snipers (not that they were being used much). Helblasters are "devastators", but with really limited options.

I fully expect to see Primaris bikes and speeders at some point (disregarding that fake looking rumor).

 Hollow wrote:
You wanted to pick up a squad of models to make some silly "Angry marines" for a bit of fun but you want to know if they will be competitive enough? I don't think you fully understand the concept of "A bit of fun". Buy the models you like the look of.

depends on the person and thier likes. they may consider "fun" to be cool modeled army that can still do ok on the table. I personally run a lot of buggies and bikes in my ork lists, but make no mistake I am well aware I am putting myself at an extreme disadvantage. Its fun to throw down on a table but I go into it knowing there is almost a 100% chance of a loss but ti me my orks are blowing gak up and having fun. when I take my imperial knights its the opposite, I may run armigers and not have everything optimized for a tournament but its not a great time to have my big pricey models just disappear turn 1 knowing there is no coming back and not much that I can do from then on other than a protracted loss (see vs eldar flyer spam)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I feel like there's a lot of mis-information about the usefulness of old marines here.

It also seems pretty clear to me that GW has made a point of not having Primaris units take over the roles of old marines. That's why there are no bikers, no devastator equivalents, no jump back/deep striking assault units (unless you count reivers) in the Primaris range. It's not that GW hasn't gotten around to them yet, it's that they have deliberately avoided them..

I don't know that they've avoided them. They just have other units in more monotone roles. Eliminators certainly washed over scout snipers (not that they were being used much). Helblasters are "devastators", but with really limited options.

I fully expect to see Primaris bikes and speeders at some point (disregarding that fake looking rumor).

You can argue for all of the following:

- Eliminators (of both types) and Suppressors infringe on Devastators.
- Inceptors horn in on Biker and Terminator territory a little and Attack Bike territory more than a little.
- Aggressors infringe on Centurions and Terminators.
- You could probably make a case for Stalker-armed Intercessors displacing Sternguard.
- Invictors at least steps on the toes of the Predator.
- Repulsors kind of stand in the middle ground between the various types of Land Raider and the Stormraven.
- Impulsors are kinda-sorta in the middle of Razorback/Lamd Speeder Storm if you squint at it.

I'm not certain how much intent GW ever has. Especially given how trash primaris were when they launched.

Honestly I'd be much more positive on 12 point marines if 40K didn't have mortal wounds.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't know that they've avoided them. They just have other units in more monotone roles. Eliminators certainly washed over scout snipers (not that they were being used much). Helblasters are "devastators", but with really limited options.

I fully expect to see Primaris bikes and speeders at some point (disregarding that fake looking rumor).

Yeah. Limited options. They're kind of... specialized at not being specialized, if that makes any sense? Your hellblaster squad can be used against most anything, but it's not really good at any one specific target. You can't make a dedicated anti-vehicle hellblaster squad.

They may get bikes and speeders, but I'm reasonably sure that they're not going to just duplicate the roles of preexisting units.

Look at the jump troops. They're both shooting units -- which assault marines and vanguard veterans are not.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't know that they've avoided them. They just have other units in more monotone roles. Eliminators certainly washed over scout snipers (not that they were being used much). Helblasters are "devastators", but with really limited options.

I fully expect to see Primaris bikes and speeders at some point (disregarding that fake looking rumor).

Yeah. Limited options. They're kind of... specialized at not being specialized, if that makes any sense? Your hellblaster squad can be used against most anything, but it's not really good at any one specific target. You can't make a dedicated anti-vehicle hellblaster squad.

They may get bikes and speeders, but I'm reasonably sure that they're not going to just duplicate the roles of preexisting units.

Look at the jump troops. They're both shooting units -- which assault marines and vanguard veterans are not.

The melee capabilities of Assault Marines are virtually non-exsistent though. Your point with Vanguard makes sense though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't know that they've avoided them. They just have other units in more monotone roles. Eliminators certainly washed over scout snipers (not that they were being used much). Helblasters are "devastators", but with really limited options.

I fully expect to see Primaris bikes and speeders at some point (disregarding that fake looking rumor).

Yeah. Limited options. They're kind of... specialized at not being specialized, if that makes any sense? Your hellblaster squad can be used against most anything, but it's not really good at any one specific target. You can't make a dedicated anti-vehicle hellblaster squad.

They may get bikes and speeders, but I'm reasonably sure that they're not going to just duplicate the roles of preexisting units.

Look at the jump troops. They're both shooting units -- which assault marines and vanguard veterans are not.

The melee capabilities of Assault Marines are virtually non-exsistent though. Your point with Vanguard makes sense though.

People always say that but Assault Marines are as good on the charge as Chainsword Bikers and they're surprisingly good at it. Durability is probably the thing making the difference though.

The Newman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't know that they've avoided them. They just have other units in more monotone roles. Eliminators certainly washed over scout snipers (not that they were being used much). Helblasters are "devastators", but with really limited options.

I fully expect to see Primaris bikes and speeders at some point (disregarding that fake looking rumor).

Yeah. Limited options. They're kind of... specialized at not being specialized, if that makes any sense? Your hellblaster squad can be used against most anything, but it's not really good at any one specific target. You can't make a dedicated anti-vehicle hellblaster squad.

They may get bikes and speeders, but I'm reasonably sure that they're not going to just duplicate the roles of preexisting units.

Look at the jump troops. They're both shooting units -- which assault marines and vanguard veterans are not.

The melee capabilities of Assault Marines are virtually non-exsistent though. Your point with Vanguard makes sense though.

People always say that but Assault Marines are as good on the charge as Chainsword Bikers and they're surprisingly good at it. Durability is probably the thing making the difference though.

LOL no they're not, especially for the price difference where you get the MUCH more durable Bikers or the offensively better Vanguard. With the detachment system the battlefield role argument doesn't work either.

assault marines hit as hard as a tactical marine, dealing 2 S4 AP - attacks. this sounds like a defence of them but it's actually the PROBLEM.

tactical marines can reach out and begin dealing damage right from the start, the odds of them being wiped out before they can contribute any damage dealing is for the most part small (or at least smaller then assault marines who have to run forward and likely won't get into assault until T2 or T3). This BTW is a problem across the board with melee in 8th edition, basic melee troops are rarely worth it. look across the board at armies and assault troops are considered worthwhile under two specific circumstances.

1: they're dirt dirt dirt cheap and thus can be utterly disposable
or 2: they hit hard eneugh to justify bothering. (being durable helps in this case too obviously)


Shock attack is clearly GW attempting to address this with marine at least.

I think Tac marines still have a place and nothing that bothers them now would need to forever aside from the one less wound. Their gear options could always drop in points and lead to them being more fragile but more swingy in combat geared with little points difference they just aren't as tough with one less wound.

Putting out thoughts, they could also give old marines more veteran stats as time goes on to make up for their less tough nature in other regards.

Really it depends but you aren't doing poorly to take at least a couple Tac squads seasoned to perfection along with the new boys. At least it gives your army some history with it.

Well you could look at that topic from 2 perspective.

1. In their own codex, they seem kind of meh, because Intercessors are better and scouts are cheaper and one of the most busted ability in the game.
2. But compared to similar troop choices from other armies, they look decent. They look better than avengers, necron warriors, because of the T4 and better save. Armies like GK and custodes, could really benefit from them, because of their cheap price.

BrianDavion wrote:
assault marines hit as hard as a tactical marine, dealing 2 S4 AP - attacks. this sounds like a defence of them but it's actually the PROBLEM.

tactical marines can reach out and begin dealing damage right from the start, the odds of them being wiped out before they can contribute any damage dealing is for the most part small (or at least smaller then assault marines who have to run forward and likely won't get into assault until T2 or T3). This BTW is a problem across the board with melee in 8th edition, basic melee troops are rarely worth it. look across the board at armies and assault troops are considered worthwhile under two specific circumstances.

1: they're dirt dirt dirt cheap and thus can be utterly disposable
or 2: they hit hard eneugh to justify bothering. (being durable helps in this case too obviously)


Shock attack is clearly GW attempting to address this with marine at least.

Honestly, assault marines without jumppack should not exist.
Also raptors share the same issues, maximum 3 attacks S4 is not particularry impressive.
Especially not for a model priced in the case of raptors about 30% more for mobility options compared to the foot csm.
Now if you could skip the melee weapons entirely and equip boltguns, that would make a difference, but i am anyways of the opinion that tac equivalents and tacs should've gotten the full equipment (bolter, boltpistol , chainsword)

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
assault marines hit as hard as a tactical marine, dealing 2 S4 AP - attacks. this sounds like a defence of them but it's actually the PROBLEM.

tactical marines can reach out and begin dealing damage right from the start, the odds of them being wiped out before they can contribute any damage dealing is for the most part small (or at least smaller then assault marines who have to run forward and likely won't get into assault until T2 or T3). This BTW is a problem across the board with melee in 8th edition, basic melee troops are rarely worth it. look across the board at armies and assault troops are considered worthwhile under two specific circumstances.

1: they're dirt dirt dirt cheap and thus can be utterly disposable
or 2: they hit hard eneugh to justify bothering. (being durable helps in this case too obviously)


Shock attack is clearly GW attempting to address this with marine at least.

Honestly, assault marines without jumppack should not exist.
Also raptors share the same issues, maximum 3 attacks S4 is not particularry impressive.
Especially not for a model priced in the case of raptors about 30% more for mobility options compared to the foot csm.
Now if you could skip the melee weapons entirely and equip boltguns, that would make a difference, but i am anyways of the opinion that tac equivalents and tacs should've gotten the full equipment (bolter, boltpistol , chainsword)

Raptors not getting a points drop at the same time as warp talons is perplexing. Also they would benefit from greater weapon options. Or the onslaught rule from hh that night raptors get.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
assault marines hit as hard as a tactical marine, dealing 2 S4 AP - attacks. this sounds like a defence of them but it's actually the PROBLEM.

tactical marines can reach out and begin dealing damage right from the start, the odds of them being wiped out before they can contribute any damage dealing is for the most part small (or at least smaller then assault marines who have to run forward and likely won't get into assault until T2 or T3). This BTW is a problem across the board with melee in 8th edition, basic melee troops are rarely worth it. look across the board at armies and assault troops are considered worthwhile under two specific circumstances.

1: they're dirt dirt dirt cheap and thus can be utterly disposable
or 2: they hit hard eneugh to justify bothering. (being durable helps in this case too obviously)


Shock attack is clearly GW attempting to address this with marine at least.

Honestly, assault marines without jumppack should not exist.
Also raptors share the same issues, maximum 3 attacks S4 is not particularry impressive.
Especially not for a model priced in the case of raptors about 30% more for mobility options compared to the foot csm.
Now if you could skip the melee weapons entirely and equip boltguns, that would make a difference, but i am anyways of the opinion that tac equivalents and tacs should've gotten the full equipment (bolter, boltpistol , chainsword)

Raptors not getting a points drop at the same time as warp talons is perplexing. Also they would benefit from greater weapon options. Or the onslaught rule from hh that night raptors get.

was the second time though, warp talons have now dropped twice, CSM have dropped once, Raptors? nope, even Havocs you could argue have dropped in points (got t5 instead of a real pts drop but still.) But frankly we don't know if it was actually intended for raptors to drop aswell, due to the rather "great" state CA pts booklet is in.