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2020/01/28 18:44:09
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
For competitive mono GK-builds, I see a mass reduction in GMNDK units per army lists. One at most, but most likely none if the player is going to build around the Warp Tide abilities to the maximum.
2020/01/29 02:11:11
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Only question i have is wheter we can switch tides twice a round ... like start with Shadow then switch to escalation and smite, then switch to convergence and shoot.
To switch Tides you need to cast a psychic power. Matched play rules say you can only cast the same psychic power once per psychic phase.
2020/01/29 13:55:37
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Aeri wrote: I liked the combination of some Grey Knights and a Knight. Doesn't seem to be viable at all anymore, as I lose the best rules. :(
Indeed, the new rules would be gone.
It also appears that GMNDK's are no longer a mandatory choice for a GK army, dito for Dreads.
So Techmarines are no longer viable as well despite the new relic offering 2D3 wounds back.
Woah, let's not get carried away here. There is a BIG difference between not being mandatory and not being "viable".
GMNDKs and Ven.dreads are definitely viable...they have specific roles no other GK units do better - they're just not optimal with the Warp Tides as other units. Your definitely not going to auto-lose by bringing them along.
2020/01/29 14:00:28
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Fifty wrote: Okay, I have a question. Not wanting to be especially competitive, but also not wanting to lose every game...
I have about 20 or so of the old metal Grey Knight Terminator models, and can make some Grey Knight Librarians and Chaplains in Terminator armour from bits of the same era. Could an army of Grey Knight Terminators (and/or Paladins) with Character support be viable for casual play?
Definitely. Let them feel the table once again.
2020/01/30 11:20:02
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
^ The results of each of those load-outs in terms what will put out the most damage is dependent on what type of unit that Paladinstar is actually shooting at.
No way are 10 Storm bolters going to be dishing out more hurt on a leviathan dread, a Riptide castle, or triple Executioners...than either the psilencers OR psycannons load out.
Spending an extra 8-12 points on your 10-man Paladin unit to carry your GK special psi weaponry - can be more than worth it, depending on what enemy units you plan to be facing down with what's supposed to be your ace Paladin-star.
2020/01/30 16:06:57
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.
In fact, it is questionable if a Pali-star gets more than one round of (efficient) shooting.
Marines are very shooty these days and can eventually reduce the number of Palis quickly.
Thats why we have 2 new Defensive stratagems and a Defensive Aura on Top of sanctuary now.
-1 Hit -1 damage, miss on wound 1-3 ontop of 4++ should Help a bit but im gonna leave other GK players decide in that as im still building my paladins
Redoubtable Defense doesn't work for Paladins, I believe. It specifically states it to be used for Grey Knight Terminators, not things with the Terminator Keyword. I would love to use that on a Pally Bomb though.
It states GREY KNIGHTS TERMINATOR unit, so it's applicable for Paladins too.
2020/01/30 16:21:11
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
And we have to question wheter the extra price of 4 psi cannons is worth the extra 0.3 unsaved Wound / 0.6 damage on keq / veq
That 440 vs 460 for a full squad. Thats 1 extra interceptor model with a extra 4 stormbolter Shots worth
Well that is before the unit takes casualties.
Unless you expect your 30W paladin unit to get completely wiped in one turn, in subsequent shootings a reduced unit of say 5 paladins consisting of:
- 5 Stormbolters would seem to preform increasingly worse than:
- 1 Stormbolter + 4 psycannons vs VEQ / KEQ.
So you have to consider that extra 20 points preforming better over 2-3 turns.
2020/01/30 20:49:17
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Xenomancers wrote: They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.
Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.
Well, that doesn't cover any 2+ armour save targets. So it would be a bit of a blanket statement to say that the psilencer is better in "every case".
You're missing the psycannon difference shooting with ToC against some of the really competitive / uber tough units eg:
- Riptides (usually coming in groups of 2-3)
- Leviathan Dreads (usually buffed with Iron Hands top-tier rules)
- Telemon Dreads (Custodes' main ranged anit-armour model)
- Good old landraider (accessible for every SM army, and usually coming with 4 lascannons a model)
2020/01/31 00:21:45
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.
The former (Stormbolters) was suggested earlier this week and backed up by some bogus math on reddit. Obviously they aren't better.
The later has been vigorously debated since RotDs release. I'm of the opinion now; While the Psilncer is still the best overall weapon system, Psicannons have their place as AT (T7/2+), i plan on running 2 on my Brother Captains this week to see how it plays on the table top.
I believe the sentiment may come from the idea that ToC + PsyAmmo strat gives Storm bolters a proportionally higher boost compared to it's base profile - not hard considering as stated, it starts off with the weakest profile at S4 AP0 D1. Also each Storm bolter is only 2 points compared to 4 point psilencer and 7 point psycannon. So some theorycrafters may intrinsically be comparing the value of one psilencer or psycannon to 2 storm bolters and 3+ storm bolters respectively, and deciding the use of the 2CP + ToC on a more costly GK special weapon (with the -1 to hit on the move), isnt worth the consideration in the list-building stage.
2020/01/31 07:48:05
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
greyknight12 wrote: I think in a given phase, the question might not be whether psilencers or psycannons are better, but if either one is better than 40 storm bolter shots given the situation on the table. Remember also you can basically shoot 2 of your "shooty units" with full buffs...one in the psychic phase and one in the shooting phase.
Well it's been discussed in the previous page that psilencers and psycannons do preform better than storm bolters with even just the ToC buff.
The point was, if the player thinks the increase in cost is worth the improvement of the GK special weapons. Basically, if you think you're okay with your GK infantry shooting at most S6 AP-1 D2 for all/majority of your shooting needs then, it looks like they wont bother with any of the special weapons.
And for completeness sake, I'll just add if under just ToC, psycannons will do better against psilencers vs. units with:
- T6 Sv2+ (Custodes Jetbikes)
- T7 Sv3+ (Stormravens, Predator Tanks, Venerable / Contemptor / Redemptor Dreads)
- T7 Sv2+ (Riptides / Y'vahras)
- T8 Sv2+ (Leviathan Dreads, Landraiders)
^This is even if they move and shoot. If they stand still and / or add PO buff they will also do better. Make that what you will.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/31 12:14:05
2020/01/31 15:00:25
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
No, with Tide of Convergence, psycannons deal more or equal damage to T7/8 3+ models than the psilencers. But without any buffs psilencers indeed do more damage.
So this is not at all the results I get.
Spoiler:
Assume 4 heavy weapons vs a KEQ (T8, 3+/5++). With simply Convergence and Focus, having moved and no rerolls, the Psycannons (16 shots S8 AP-2 D2) do 2.667 total wounds for 5.333 damage. The Psilencers (24 shots S5 AP-1 Dd3+1) do 2 unsaved wounds for 6 damage.
Also note that the psilencers, with two unsaved wounds, can do anywhere from 4-8 damage, while the psycannons are capped at 4.
Now, if we add Draigo and Bring down the Beast, those numbers change:
Psycannons - 6 unsaved wounds, 12 damage
Psilencers - 5 unsaved wounds, 15 damage
Note again that, with six unsaved wounds, psycannons will always have 12 damage. Whereas, with five unsaved wounds, psilencers will be anywhere from 10 to TWENTY, which far outperforms the psycannons.
Now, if we put Guidance litany on the psycannons versus Power litany for psilencers...well, mathhammer won't let me reroll damage so I can't do that, but presumably I'd hit that 16 wound mark a lot with the psilencers. So let's just put Guidance on both.
Psycannons - 7.111 unsaved wounds, 14.222 damage
Psilencers - 5.926 unsaved wounds, 17.778 damage. Better than the psycannons!
And if you add in Psychic Onslaught...
(so we've got a Draigo reroll, Bring Down the Beast, Guidance and Focus litanies, Convergence, and Psychic Onslaught)
Psilencers (S6 AP-2 Dd3+1) - 7.901 unsaved wounds, 23.704 damage. Reroll one of these damage dice, and you've killed a Knight (although it costs 5CP, two passive buffs, and two active buffs)
There's a clear winner, and it isn't the psycannon.
That's because you're adding Invocation of Focus, which benefits psilencers more than psycannons. It's the same with this Greyknights spreadsheet, it's using every buff you can throw at it the unit. And yes, defintely, psilencers do more damage then because they get a bigger benefit from buffs like Bring Down the Beast and Focus of Invocation.
If you just have Tide of Convergence active, and possibly Psychic Onslaught, psycannons outdamage psilencers against armoured targets. Look at it this way, a Psycannon with just Tide of Convergence outdamages a lascannon against T7+ for a lot cheaper, and only gets better if you start throwing buffs at it. Tide of Convergence has certainly made it a viable weapon now.
I couldn't wholeheartedly agree with this anymore if I tried. ToC is like a dream come true for our psycannons! It makes them what I expected them to be in 8ed from the get go. GW is about 28 months late on this needed upgrade but it's here now - and so I wont complain anymore than that.
While not perfect, I like the idea you just need to be in the ToC and you can be rest assured psycannons will do some real work without anymore buffs! PO isn't actually required (and some here have already stated they feel it's not worth it / low priority for CP spending), so save that 2CP for Psybolt ammo to use it on a 10-man squad with SBs so they can join in on the ToC fun.
Waking Dreamer wrote: And for completeness sake, I'll just add if under just ToC, psycannons will do better against psilencers vs. units with:
- T6 Sv2+ (Custodes Jetbikes)
- T7 Sv3+ (Stormravens, Predator Tanks, Venerable / Contemptor / Redemptor Dreads)
- T7 Sv2+ (Riptides / Y'vahras)
- T8 Sv2+ (Leviathan Dreads, Landraiders)
^ That is not an inconsequential selection of hard targets that psycannons will clearly damage more than stormbolters or psilencers - without requiring any extra CP expenditure or fickle character buff activations.
From my perspective, it's not unreasonable to have your mass storm bolters deal with the chaff and even heavy infantry (with psybolt ammo), while reserving the rest of the slots for psycannons that deal the best against units with Sv2+, T7, T8 etc. Again, with no further CP required nor requiring the micro-managing of other Character buffs which may or may not activate anyway. All you need to concentrate on is getting them into range during ToC, ideally with the re-roll to hit buff (as is standard tactic with a shooting unit), and combine that with the rest of the storm bolters of your army to first clear the drones / fodder - before following it through against their army's toughest armour with your ToC boosted psychically-charged cannons!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/31 16:01:39
2020/02/02 20:31:55
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Jabberscythe wrote: The real question is, do you really need a high ap, single damage shots if you have A LOT OF SMITES for heavy targets ?
It depends on the army you're facing.
As long as you can make sure not a single 1 wound enemy model is between his heavy target assets and your 12" or 24" smite dealers, before your psychic phase begins - or that his army cannot heavily deny / minus-1 or more to your smite casting you could be okay...
2020/02/02 20:45:07
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So basically not enough to make them actually work taking. Also is that taking into account the D2 vs D1+D3 damage?
I'll be fielding 2 on my Brother Captains (2+WS), considering i won't be using stratagems on a single weapon system and cannons seem better against a few specific targets so i think having a couple to finish them off is a good idea. The other 14 heavy weapons are Psilcners - that's what i've taken away from the conversations here.
Will you be planning on shooting your heavy weapons during ToC (but with no additional strats / buffs), and NOT against these types of targets:
- T6 Sv2+ (Custodes Jetbikes)
- T7 Sv3+ (Stormravens, Predator Tanks, Venerable / Contemptor / Redemptor Dreads)
- T7 Sv2+ (Riptides / Y'vahras)
- T8 Sv2+ (Leviathan Dreads, Landraiders)
^ Because psilencers would be WORSE against them than psycannons...then you should be okay.
You are the one ignoring math...
In tide of convergence - the psycannon is better vs practically every target you'd want to shoot a heavy weapon at. This is undisputable mathematic fact. This doesn't take into account buffing with strats and power though. So if you want a few psilencers to buff up be my guest. You are gonna be taking MSU - most MSU have 1-2 psycannons at most - so you aren't playing strats on them.
I'm gonna be getting double the Psilencers so that's a bit more important.
No you aren't. You can't just count the points of the weapons and ignore the fact that you need a model that's allowed to take it in the first place.
Yeah and I get double the Psilencers for every Psycannon taken, which is especially important for an army already low on models to begin with. Otherwise more people would be defending the state of Flamers. In reality you just take more Storm Bolters or Combi-Bolters.
If an army list has say 14 psycannons to maximize use of ToC, changing the loadout to psilencers suddenly WONT give you 28 psilencers instead. Nah. It will give you an extra 2.33 psilencers more - as obviously you still have to pay for the GK infantry model (14 points each) to carry them first.
So, in essence for an optimal ToC list (lots of heavy infantry weapons), the army loadout will be more like 14 psycannons vs 16 psilencers actually. And as mentioned you can only really buff FOUR of those pilencers in a turn in addition to shooting in ToC.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/02 21:56:44
2020/02/04 07:00:58
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Sigh, if you're going to use math please use it correctly. 2 Shots*.66(3+BS)=1.32*.5(St8 vs T8)=.66*.5(4+ Save)=.33*2(Damage)=.66
Woah let's avoid throwing stones in glass houses now....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hulksmash wrote: Honest to god I'm not sure how people still push the psycannon. It needs base damage 2 to be competitive and it doesn't have it. It's more expensive for less output and less potential output.
Probably because they dont short-changed the psycannon with only 2 shots. Do you still think there's a disservice here for people recommend psycannon's for certain units / enemy targets?
And is there anyone else here who has other "maths" contentions that people are dropping down? Maths is the last thing that should be subjective or have multiple interpretations. One-by-one it can be proven correct or wrong. Just pick the post with the maths - like this recent one here. Redemption's maths hasn't been proven wrong yet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/04 07:45:34
2020/02/04 23:45:41
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
MiguelFelstone wrote: I don't see any restriction on this (using Lore Master to know a spell from the other discipline).
I don't even see that type of restriction in the Space Marine codex, if they had this WL trait i'm pretty sure it would work too.
It only says you can't generate powers from both disciplines, no problems with casting them if you know them. The Lore Master trait states that the character simply 'knows' one more Santic power, just like how psykers automatically 'know' Smite, so no conflicting language or anything. IFAIK you can elect the order of things happening 'before the battle' so no issues there either.
Its up in the air at best I'd say, needs FAQ. To be honest allowing an extra Dominus power seems in direct conflict with the working of the WL Trait, but I guess no worries if everyone's happy to play it like that.
The terms "know" and "generate" is interchangeable and thus bound by the same restrictions.
Every datasheet for a GK psyker has this:
"It knows the Smite psychic power and [one/two/three] psychic power from the Sanctic discipline."
^ It doesn't really matter that it states that they already "know" one/two/three psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline. Before the start of the game you still have to "generate" every single Sanctic discipline power you want them to cast. Knowing a Sanctic psychic power as said in ALL their datasheets is no different as knowing an extra psychic power from Sanctic as said in the WL trait. Before you start the game, as soon as you CHOOSE a Sanctic power for the WL with Lore-master - you are generating that psychic power from that discipline. As you have always done for every single GK psyker unit, the WL trait never bypasses this process.
In regards to the new psychic rules it explicitly states:
"...(they cannot generate psychic powers from more than one psychic discipline)."
^ A GK character knowing powers from two different disciplines is exactly the same a generating powers from two different disciplines. And thus illegal.
In regards to Smite, that power doesn't actually belong to a different psychic discipline does it? It's inherent of being a psyker, so I wouldn't use it as an example to piggyback bypassing / breaking the rule. Because Smite doesn't do either.
2020/02/05 02:37:30
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Waking Dreamer wrote: The terms "know" and "generate" is interchangeable and thus bound by the same restrictions.
Honest question because i'd like to know, did you just pull this out of your butt or is this established somewhere? Granted i've only been playing 8th for so long i've never seen anything that supports the above (the rest of your argument is based on this assumption).
It was already thoroughly explained in the same post:
"It knows the Smite psychic power and [one/two/three] psychic power from the Sanctic discipline."
^ It doesn't really matter that it states that they already "know" one/two/three psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline. Before the start of the game you still have to "generate" every single Sanctic discipline power you want them to cast. Knowing a Sanctic psychic power as said in ALL their datasheets is no different as knowing an extra psychic power from Sanctic as said in the WL trait. Before you start the game, as soon as you CHOOSE a Sanctic power for the WL with Lore-master - you are generating that psychic power from that discipline. As you have always done for every single GK psyker unit, the WL trait never bypasses this process.
^ Which part of this do you not understand exactly?
Do you not understand that when a GK datasheet says the psyker knows one psychic power from the Sanctic discipline - that before it can cast a psychic power from the Sanctic discipline in the game...you STILL have to generate that psychic power at the beginning of the game.
Do you not understand that in choosing and telling your opponent that your GK psyker unit has a psychic power, from either the Dominus or Sanctic discipline...that you are in fact automatically generating that psychic power for that unit to use in the game?
When your opponent asks you at the beginning of the game:
---------------
"So how many psychic powers does you GK Psyker know?"
GK player: "It knows two powers from the Sanctic Discipline."
"Cool. Okay so what are they?"
GK player: "It knows the Sanctuary and Gate of infinity" powers. ------------------
^ Do you not understand, that even though in that entire conversation NO ONE mentions the term "generate", that the GK player has inherently generated psychic powers from the Sactic discipline for his GK model?
I'll try to simplify it one more step:
A GK psyker unit cannot ever cast a particular psychic power from GK psychic discipline - without that particular GK psychic power needing to be FIRST generated for them to use/cast.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/05 03:05:21
2020/02/06 04:42:17
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Waking Dreamer wrote:"Libby (warlord - lore master + shard) - ethereal manip + inner fire + vortex (can I do this, get access to both disciplines on one character?) "
I wouldn't say so, no one model should cast from the two different disciplines.
But for my local meta, we are allowing your WL to get an extra Dominus power if all his other powers are Dominus too.
Ritual of the Damned says:
Instead of generating psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline, a GREY KNIGHTS CHARACTER model can generate an equivalent number of psychic powers from the Dominus discipline (they cannot generate psychic powers from more than one psychic discipline).
Take a GK Librarian: his datasheet says he knows the Smite psychic power and two psychic powers from the Sanctic discipline. If you give him the Lore Master trait, he now knows 3 Sanctic powers. Then you go and generate powers, and you can choose to generate an equivalent number of powers from the Dominus discipline, so you generate 3 Dominus powers.
But yes, definitely needs a FAQ/errata. The Tome of Malcador relic is different, because a Phobos Librarian doesn't technicaly have a rule that they cannot generate from both Librarius and Obscuration; they just normally can't generate from Librarius at all.
Nice. This is exactly how my group has been playing it, and there are quite a few GK players actively using it.
The best thing about this, is that it doesn't break any of the rules written - which IS AWESOME!
A FAQ will be needed for those who still disagree.
Excellent point about the SM relic. There are definitely clear difference between the two.
2020/02/07 14:44:03
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
I'm curious, with the experiences and discussions of GK players here regarding the PA4 rules, what are your thoughts on our "ranking / tier-level", compared to the other SM Chapter with supplements / PA4 rules:
^ By the looks of things many (non GK players?), STILL think GK are below every other SM chapter (except SW/DW who are still waiting for their upgrades).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/07 14:55:42
2020/02/09 19:30:04
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Take-aways:
- Non-Psyker units no longer benefit from the Tides, so no more -1 to hit 1+ Land Raiders in cover. Which is what I initially expected, but still a loss.
- The Lore Master warlord traits indeed gives you an extra Dominus power if your other powers are Dominus powers. No mixing and matching.
Looks like we were both right about Lore-Master and Dominus powers then.
Yay for 3 usable Dominus powers for Libbies or 4 Dominus powers for Voldus!
2020/02/11 11:15:34
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
It's not optimized to take advantage of any tides. Must have made a lot of deep strike charges in this tournament.
I'd guess it's probably taking heavy advantage of Tide of Shadows.
The more I look at the list the more it grows on me (and I'm fairly skeptical of Paladins!). I think that something like this and the 65-man PAGK lists are going to be our two main archetypes.
Seconded, the list looks strange.
I wonder about the initial setup of the units.
There are 6 Strike squads, three with the gate and three with the vortex.
I would deep strike the vortex units and set up the gate units regularly in turn 1.
The Paladin units have hammer-hand and so will be rather immobile on the board. The enemy will concentrate fire on them. If such a unit is set up regularly in turn 1, the enemy may try to withdraw his units from its fire range (24 + 5 = 29'').
Librarian and Chaplain are mandatory, while I would never use a named character.
Could somebody enlighten me about Voldus?
Well, it seems this highlights the differences between merely theorycrafting + mathhammer vs first-hand tournament play and just getting the job done with the units you've chosen on the day(s). The 6-0 victory is nothing to sneeze at.
Lawrence usually breaks down his tournament experiences soon after he gets back - so we'll probably see a video of his GK army and how they went in an actually tournament-level playing field within the week or so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 11:18:02
2020/02/13 23:12:48
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
It's not optimized to take advantage of any tides. Must have made a lot of deep strike charges in this tournament.
I'd guess it's probably taking heavy advantage of Tide of Shadows.
The more I look at the list the more it grows on me (and I'm fairly skeptical of Paladins!). I think that something like this and the 65-man PAGK lists are going to be our two main archetypes.
Seconded, the list looks strange.
I wonder about the initial setup of the units.
There are 6 Strike squads, three with the gate and three with the vortex.
I would deep strike the vortex units and set up the gate units regularly in turn 1.
The Paladin units have hammer-hand and so will be rather immobile on the board. The enemy will concentrate fire on them. If such a unit is set up regularly in turn 1, the enemy may try to withdraw his units from its fire range (24 + 5 = 29'').
Librarian and Chaplain are mandatory, while I would never use a named character.
Could somebody enlighten me about Voldus?
Murrax9 wrote: I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year.
You do know that a completely infantry GK list claimed a 6-0 victory in a tournament just on the weekend? The GK player was one of only 2 of the armies that were undefeated (the other was the Iron Hands army who came in first place).
I'm not going to say GMNDK are bad, though even the champion of the Aussie tournament you're referencing said in an interview, that if he was to revamp his GK list, the first thing to go would be his lone GMNDK...so competitively I certainly don't think they're essential anymore.
2020/02/15 07:57:54
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Xenomancers wrote: GMDK is a 1 or none option now. You can utilize stratagems and it is somewhat durable. The 1 damage smite is a dager for it though. He really isn't that great anymore.
LR is terrible. REally over costed even in an Ultramarines list which can negate it's weakness of fall back and shoot. Easily 50 points overcosted.
Do GMDKs not get buffed by Tides?
With half of the Tides only. Tide of Shadows and Tide of Escalation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Makes me wonder though, if GMNDK were also effected by the Tide of Convergence, would people be spamming 2-3 of them, instead of say 1-2 Paladin bombs?
Or a combination of both?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/15 08:00:59
2020/02/15 14:03:58
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Makes me wonder though, if GMNDK were also effected by the Tide of Convergence, would people be spamming 2-3 of them, instead of say 1-2 Paladin bombs?
Or a combination of both?
Half of the tides work only for infantry models.
I think that was to limit the GMNDK clutch/spam. Seeing as how:
- 7ed = Codex: Nemesis Dreadknight
- 8ed = Codex: Grandmaster in Nemesis Dreadknight
- PA4 = Supplement: Grandmaster in Nem....nope. Not anymore....
2020/03/22 20:20:05
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
undertow wrote: I'd give up trying to convince him. He doesn't seem to be the type of person that can change their mind, about anything. You could restate your valid reasons any number of times and it's just wasted air.
Yeah I hear ya, but it's less about trying to convince and more about correcting the straight-up misinformation being posted that seems to deliberately ignore empirical data. But I digress, you are right, it seems like debating with a Flat Earther at this point
D6MW + 4 SB shots + potentially 10 attacks (Master Swordsman) + potentially 10 more attacks (heroic sacrifice), on a 2+/4++/character model that can cast 2 psychic powers + 1 DTW.....ONLY for 80 points...yeah he ain't terrible. Not by a long shot.
2020/04/02 21:42:05
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
wuestenfux wrote: Well, before the new rules and stratagems, I'd usually played 2 GMDKNs deep striking in round 2.
They were a good add-on to a mediocre army.
But now as the army got new strength, GMDKNs are no longer a must have, just an add-on in friendly games.
Yup, pretty much this.
If they had also received buffs from Tide of convergence, that is be able to deliver:
- 6 S8 AP-1 D3 shots and
- 12 S5 AP0 Dd3+1 shots
Do you think they would be a competitive alternative to a Paladin bomb. Or at least instead of the second Paladin bomb.
2020/07/18 02:47:42
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
chnmmr wrote: *reads the paladin ancient a billion more times in confusion*...
Wait... so the paladin ancient can't have a sword, but ONE falchion. And the extra attack from the falchion only counts if you're wielding 2... wtf.
Yup, welcome to weird rules. It might be too hard to wield a sword and a banner together? and since the falchion is smaller it must be easier to dual weild with a banner?? Idk, just a guess at their reasoning
It's mainly about what could be modeled straight from the box. There are plenty of left-hand falchions but no left-hand swords. It's one of the small changes from 8ed and forward that's actually pretty cool.
1. Game-play: before 8Ed it always seemed a waste that while the banner bearer will grant and gain an extra melee attack - those attacks were never better than just punching his opponent with his fist. That added AP-2, Dd3 on all his attacks was a real buff to his model.
2. Lore-wise: A single falchion is our most compact melee weapon (and relatively the easiest to wield), and it makes sense that a twin falchion user would be the most capable of holding a banner in one hand while competently attack with his left-hand independently.
The only problem with Falchions in 9Ed...is that they are prohibitively costly now. Way too cheap at the beginning of 8Ed, but now way too expensive at the beginning of 9Ed! 4 points for 1 extra attack is criminal. Even a single Falchion cost makes no sense. Halberds have +1S, Swords have +1AP and they are free while one Falchion is TWO points?!
And if it does turn out that they will be half the price of what is leaked...that's still too expensive - again the straight up better Halberd / Sword is FREE, while 1 Falchion will cost you 1 point for being worse? They got it right at the end of 8Ed with Twin Falchions costing one extra point (for 1 extra attack). To make it the most balanced/fair in 9Ed it should be Falchion (single/pair): 0/1 point.
Hopefully a mass of GK players will politely and succinctly point out this problem, for the first round of FAQ, as GW will only make changes to mass agreements eg. so many proper emails and structured game data / battle reports from GK players over 2+ years gave us Tides / buffs etc in PA, whereas similarly weak armies like SW and DW were not as fervent in their feedback - resulting in minimal / lackluster PA rules...coming AFTER our tremendous PA buffs!
