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2020/01/31 03:13:29
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
In regards to the psilencer/psycannon debate:
(yes, I have more to say)
Psilencers cost 4pts, and psycannons 7pts (there's no price difference any longer between PAGK and GKT). So 4 psilencers (the max you can get in a unit) are 16pts, while 4 psycannons are 28pts, a difference of 12pts (not the 20pts that someone earlier was touting, but still significant).
==so psilencers are slightly cheaper
Without big buffs, damage output against a Knight is fairly equal between the two weapons. With buffs, the psilencers significantly outperform. Against GEQ (Guardsmen, Cultists, Boyz, Gaunts, lesser Daemons) and Primaris (2W Marines), I'd rather have volume of shots.
=so unbuffed, damage output is roughly comparable; but against chaff volume of shots is better imo.
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
2020/01/31 06:00:53
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
I think in a given phase, the question might not be whether psilencers or psycannons are better, but if either one is better than 40 storm bolter shots given the situation on the table. Remember also you can basically shoot 2 of your "shooty units" with full buffs...one in the psychic phase and one in the shooting phase.
Edit: assuming you can only buff one thing and people are running 10-man units, there’s probably a case to be made for a higher number of shots in some cases or in other cases going for the max damage against a big thing. You probably aren’t always going to buffing/shooting the same unit. I’m sorry, my initial comment wasn’t super clear.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/31 08:20:58
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/01/31 07:48:05
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
greyknight12 wrote: I think in a given phase, the question might not be whether psilencers or psycannons are better, but if either one is better than 40 storm bolter shots given the situation on the table. Remember also you can basically shoot 2 of your "shooty units" with full buffs...one in the psychic phase and one in the shooting phase.
Well it's been discussed in the previous page that psilencers and psycannons do preform better than storm bolters with even just the ToC buff.
The point was, if the player thinks the increase in cost is worth the improvement of the GK special weapons. Basically, if you think you're okay with your GK infantry shooting at most S6 AP-1 D2 for all/majority of your shooting needs then, it looks like they wont bother with any of the special weapons.
And for completeness sake, I'll just add if under just ToC, psycannons will do better against psilencers vs. units with:
- T6 Sv2+ (Custodes Jetbikes)
- T7 Sv3+ (Stormravens, Predator Tanks, Venerable / Contemptor / Redemptor Dreads)
- T7 Sv2+ (Riptides / Y'vahras)
- T8 Sv2+ (Leviathan Dreads, Landraiders)
^This is even if they move and shoot. If they stand still and / or add PO buff they will also do better. Make that what you will.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/31 12:14:05
2020/01/31 08:35:40
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Xenomancers wrote: Ahh - are you aware you can take advantage of 2 tides in 1 turn?
Yes, are you aware you can only do that once per game? At least in match play games.
Well, you could basically do:
Odd turn:
Have Tide of Escalation active
Psychic phase: smite with 2 MW, then change to Tide of Convergence at the end.
Shooting phase: shoot with buffed psi weapons
Even turn:
Psychic phase: use Edict Imperator to shoot one unit with buffed psi weapons, change to Tide of Escalation, smite with 2 MW Shooting phase: rest shoots without ToC buff
Odd turn:
Rince and repeat
And if you use Edict Imperator, you can use Psybolt Ammo or Psychic Onslaught twice in one turn (once in the psychic phase and once in the shooting phase), but you'll definitely be burning through your CP fast.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I'm suddenly really confused about what's going on and what's being discussed here.
I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.
The biggest difference is that on a 10 SB unit, you'd be using Psybolt Ammo, which buffs all 10 models. If you use 4 heavy weapons + 1-6 stormbolters, you'd use Psychic Onslaught, which only buffs 4 models in the unit. If the unit moved and heavy weapons would have their -1 penalty, you'll see that 10 SB with ToC and PA do more damage than the 6 SB+4 HW unit with ToC and PO. It's a niche case, but something to keep in mind. Especially for more mobile units like Interceptors that can't even take 4 heavy weapons in a unit, it might be more useful to stay with 10 SB.
No, with Tide of Convergence, psycannons deal more or equal damage to T7/8 3+ models than the psilencers. But without any buffs psilencers indeed do more damage.
So this is not at all the results I get.
Spoiler:
Assume 4 heavy weapons vs a KEQ (T8, 3+/5++). With simply Convergence and Focus, having moved and no rerolls, the Psycannons (16 shots S8 AP-2 D2) do 2.667 total wounds for 5.333 damage. The Psilencers (24 shots S5 AP-1 Dd3+1) do 2 unsaved wounds for 6 damage.
Also note that the psilencers, with two unsaved wounds, can do anywhere from 4-8 damage, while the psycannons are capped at 4.
Now, if we add Draigo and Bring down the Beast, those numbers change:
Psycannons - 6 unsaved wounds, 12 damage
Psilencers - 5 unsaved wounds, 15 damage
Note again that, with six unsaved wounds, psycannons will always have 12 damage. Whereas, with five unsaved wounds, psilencers will be anywhere from 10 to TWENTY, which far outperforms the psycannons.
Now, if we put Guidance litany on the psycannons versus Power litany for psilencers...well, mathhammer won't let me reroll damage so I can't do that, but presumably I'd hit that 16 wound mark a lot with the psilencers. So let's just put Guidance on both.
Psycannons - 7.111 unsaved wounds, 14.222 damage
Psilencers - 5.926 unsaved wounds, 17.778 damage. Better than the psycannons!
And if you add in Psychic Onslaught...
(so we've got a Draigo reroll, Bring Down the Beast, Guidance and Focus litanies, Convergence, and Psychic Onslaught)
Psilencers (S6 AP-2 Dd3+1) - 7.901 unsaved wounds, 23.704 damage. Reroll one of these damage dice, and you've killed a Knight (although it costs 5CP, two passive buffs, and two active buffs)
There's a clear winner, and it isn't the psycannon.
That's because you're adding Invocation of Focus, which benefits psilencers more than psycannons. It's the same with this Greyknights spreadsheet, it's using every buff you can throw at it the unit. And yes, defintely, psilencers do more damage then because they get a bigger benefit from buffs like Bring Down the Beast and Focus of Invocation.
If you just have Tide of Convergence active, and possibly Psychic Onslaught, psycannons outdamage psilencers against armoured targets. Look at it this way, a Psycannon with just Tide of Convergence outdamages a lascannon against T7+ for a lot cheaper, and only gets better if you start throwing buffs at it. Tide of Convergence has certainly made it a viable weapon now.
But Invocation of Focus will only ever buff 1 unit at the same time, costs at least 107 points for the Chaplain and only goes off on a 3+. Making the argument that psilencers are better because they're 12pt cheaper for 4, but then disregarding that you're adding at least that many points of units to buff them seems a little odd.
In the end, I think the major takeaway from all this mathhammering is that you want different units to have different loadouts, and not just spam the same loadout over all your units.
Take that 10 man Interceptor or Strike Knight squad with 10 stormbolters for that Psybolt Ammo alpha strike, add a 10 man Paladin squad with 4 psilencers to buff up the wazoo with every psychic power/stratagem you want and a Purgation squad with 4 psycannons that just has Tide of Convergence active because all the buffs are going to the Paladin squad and it doesn't want to attract too much attention to itself.
In the end, I think the major takeaway from all this mathhammering is that you want different units to have different loadouts, and not just spam the same loadout over all your units.
Take that 10 man Interceptor or Strike Knight squad with 10 stormbolters for that Psybolt Ammo alpha strike, add a 10 man Paladin squad with 4 psilencers to buff up the wazoo with every psychic power/stratagem you want and a Purgation squad with 4 psycannons that just has Tide of Convergence active because all the buffs are going to the Paladin squad and it doesn't want to attract too much attention to itself.
Indeed, this adds some more variety to a GK army in order to deal with different threats more efficiently.
However, there is a trade-off between small and large units.
For small units, the number of smites is larger,
while for large units, the shooting buffs are more efficiently used.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, in round 1 I'd start with tide of shadows to keep the units already on the battle field alive - no matter if going first or second.
In round 2, I'd switch to either tide of escalation or tide of convergence.
This will depend on several factors.
With my GK army played recently I was able to organize a massive ''alpha'' strike in round 2,
in which all units up to the Dreads and Techmarines were in rapid fire range,
using deep strike, shunt and gate of infinity.
The army contained no psi-weapons for infantry models and
used smite all over the place.
In this respect, tide of escalation would be the better pick.
On the other, if one is able to squeeze in several psi weapons,
then tide of convergence will be an option.
But using the Purgation squad is a bit questionable as it cannot deep strike.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/31 13:25:13
Former moderator 40kOnline
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No, with Tide of Convergence, psycannons deal more or equal damage to T7/8 3+ models than the psilencers. But without any buffs psilencers indeed do more damage.
So this is not at all the results I get.
Spoiler:
Assume 4 heavy weapons vs a KEQ (T8, 3+/5++). With simply Convergence and Focus, having moved and no rerolls, the Psycannons (16 shots S8 AP-2 D2) do 2.667 total wounds for 5.333 damage. The Psilencers (24 shots S5 AP-1 Dd3+1) do 2 unsaved wounds for 6 damage.
Also note that the psilencers, with two unsaved wounds, can do anywhere from 4-8 damage, while the psycannons are capped at 4.
Now, if we add Draigo and Bring down the Beast, those numbers change:
Psycannons - 6 unsaved wounds, 12 damage
Psilencers - 5 unsaved wounds, 15 damage
Note again that, with six unsaved wounds, psycannons will always have 12 damage. Whereas, with five unsaved wounds, psilencers will be anywhere from 10 to TWENTY, which far outperforms the psycannons.
Now, if we put Guidance litany on the psycannons versus Power litany for psilencers...well, mathhammer won't let me reroll damage so I can't do that, but presumably I'd hit that 16 wound mark a lot with the psilencers. So let's just put Guidance on both.
Psycannons - 7.111 unsaved wounds, 14.222 damage
Psilencers - 5.926 unsaved wounds, 17.778 damage. Better than the psycannons!
And if you add in Psychic Onslaught...
(so we've got a Draigo reroll, Bring Down the Beast, Guidance and Focus litanies, Convergence, and Psychic Onslaught)
Psilencers (S6 AP-2 Dd3+1) - 7.901 unsaved wounds, 23.704 damage. Reroll one of these damage dice, and you've killed a Knight (although it costs 5CP, two passive buffs, and two active buffs)
There's a clear winner, and it isn't the psycannon.
That's because you're adding Invocation of Focus, which benefits psilencers more than psycannons. It's the same with this Greyknights spreadsheet, it's using every buff you can throw at it the unit. And yes, defintely, psilencers do more damage then because they get a bigger benefit from buffs like Bring Down the Beast and Focus of Invocation.
If you just have Tide of Convergence active, and possibly Psychic Onslaught, psycannons outdamage psilencers against armoured targets. Look at it this way, a Psycannon with just Tide of Convergence outdamages a lascannon against T7+ for a lot cheaper, and only gets better if you start throwing buffs at it. Tide of Convergence has certainly made it a viable weapon now.
I couldn't wholeheartedly agree with this anymore if I tried. ToC is like a dream come true for our psycannons! It makes them what I expected them to be in 8ed from the get go. GW is about 28 months late on this needed upgrade but it's here now - and so I wont complain anymore than that.
While not perfect, I like the idea you just need to be in the ToC and you can be rest assured psycannons will do some real work without anymore buffs! PO isn't actually required (and some here have already stated they feel it's not worth it / low priority for CP spending), so save that 2CP for Psybolt ammo to use it on a 10-man squad with SBs so they can join in on the ToC fun.
Waking Dreamer wrote: And for completeness sake, I'll just add if under just ToC, psycannons will do better against psilencers vs. units with:
- T6 Sv2+ (Custodes Jetbikes)
- T7 Sv3+ (Stormravens, Predator Tanks, Venerable / Contemptor / Redemptor Dreads)
- T7 Sv2+ (Riptides / Y'vahras)
- T8 Sv2+ (Leviathan Dreads, Landraiders)
^ That is not an inconsequential selection of hard targets that psycannons will clearly damage more than stormbolters or psilencers - without requiring any extra CP expenditure or fickle character buff activations.
From my perspective, it's not unreasonable to have your mass storm bolters deal with the chaff and even heavy infantry (with psybolt ammo), while reserving the rest of the slots for psycannons that deal the best against units with Sv2+, T7, T8 etc. Again, with no further CP required nor requiring the micro-managing of other Character buffs which may or may not activate anyway. All you need to concentrate on is getting them into range during ToC, ideally with the re-roll to hit buff (as is standard tactic with a shooting unit), and combine that with the rest of the storm bolters of your army to first clear the drones / fodder - before following it through against their army's toughest armour with your ToC boosted psychically-charged cannons!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/31 16:01:39
2020/01/31 15:51:15
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Homeskillet wrote:
I disagree; Paladins have the TERMINATOR keyword, but they are a GREY KNIGHTS PALADIN unit. GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS are a separate unit. I think the Masters of Combat stratagem bolsters that argument; otherwise there would be no need to differentiate the two. I also should say that I hope there's an FAQ proving me wrong.
I definitely works on Paladins (and Paladin Ancients, Apothecaries and all Terminator HQ models). If it was just the Terminator unit, they would have used the TERMINATOR SQUAD keyword, added a specific exclusion for the PALADIN keyword or simply wouldn't have used keywords at all.
Just like Vengeance of the Machine Spirit works on all Land Raider variants or Big Guns Never Tire doesn't require a unit called "Vehicle".
This..
The codex specifically states "GREY KNIGHTS TERMINATOR UNIT"
it doesnt talk about "squad"
both the terminators and the paladins have the "Grey Knights Terminator" Unit keyword. so it works on both
After looking more closely at the keywords, I'm happy to be wrong! This is phenomenal for GK!
2020/01/31 16:21:19
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Before the new book, I had been using one just for the Terrify power. GK need to be charging, and negating overwatch is huge. I personally like to take Eisenhorn, but that's just because I love his books and that he casts two powers.
2020/01/31 16:41:49
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Before the new book, I had been using one just for the Terrify power. GK need to be charging, and negating overwatch is huge. I personally like to take Eisenhorn, but that's just because I love his books and that he casts two powers.
I'm running Coteaz right now, and Rex is in the mail.
Coteaz has an amazing ability to just some DEs day up by increasing the cost of a stratagem, and his Spynetwork attacks act as a DS deterrent.
Rex on the other hand has 3 casts 4 denies 2+/3++ and can DS in with the rest of your Paladins.
2020/01/31 18:30:15
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Nah Cortez is the man. He is in every inquisition based army I run (sisters, death watch, grey knights) and he always does work. Terrify is great. Spy network to make someone spend extra cp on strats is great. I once made someone pay 3cp for a reroll thanks to him and an assassin, it was funny and really bothered my opponent lol.
2020/01/31 20:42:41
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
If you just have Tide of Convergence active, and possibly Psychic Onslaught, psycannons outdamage psilencers against armoured targets. Look at it this way, a Psycannon with just Tide of Convergence outdamages a lascannon against T7+ for a lot cheaper, and only gets better if you start throwing buffs at it. Tide of Convergence has certainly made it a viable weapon now.
But Invocation of Focus will only ever buff 1 unit at the same time, costs at least 107 points for the Chaplain and only goes off on a 3+. Making the argument that psilencers are better because they're 12pt cheaper for 4, but then disregarding that you're adding at least that many points of units to buff them seems a little odd.
In the end, I think the major takeaway from all this mathhammering is that you want different units to have different loadouts, and not just spam the same loadout over all your units. Take that 10 man Interceptor or Strike Knight squad with 10 stormbolters for that Psybolt Ammo alpha strike, add a 10 man Paladin squad with 4 psilencers to buff up the wazoo with every psychic power/stratagem you want and a Purgation squad with 4 psycannons that just has Tide of Convergence active because all the buffs are going to the Paladin squad and it doesn't want to attract too much attention to itself.
Interestingly, my competitive 2k list has those three units in it--double battalion, 5 HQs, Apothecary, 6x5 GKSS, Shuntbomb, Purge-cannon, and Palabomb (with four psilencers).
These are interesting and valid points. (And yay, people are looking at my spreadsheet!) I agree that psilencers benefit a lot more from the AP boost than psycannons. In fact, I noticed that psycannons have diminishing returns on that front when they've got to AP-3; that is to say, they only ever really need AP-2. However, in my number crunching, I still see that psilencers always seem to at least equal psycannons.
I added "Draigo+Convergence" to the spreadsheet, a combo that will be easy to pull off multiple times a game. Psycannons kill a single more Intercessor, do a bit more overkill to a single Centurion, and a bit two more damage to a vehicle. Psilencers do a bit more damage to T5 3+ (is that Aggressors?).
So unbuffed/with passive buffs (ie. Draigo and Tide), psycannons are a bit ahead. But as soon as you start giving active buffs (ie. powers, litanies, and strats), the psilencers pull massively ahead.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/31 20:43:51
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
2020/02/01 08:21:13
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
well, am 3-0 with Grey Knights 2.0
use all infantry
2 battalions
Draigo, Voldus, Captain (WL-first to the fray), Librarian
6x strike squads, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with halberd )
2x interceptor squads, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with hammer)
1 apothecary
1 ancient (banner of flame)
10 paladins, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with hammer)
game 1 vs chaos, went well, managed to do an inner fire bomb on max unit of chaos terminators
game 2 vs eldar, ynnari, mostly shut down their psychic phase
game 3 vs Dark Angels, used paladins as a distraction, attracted majority of his army towards them, then the strikes/interceptors cleaned house (paladins did get wiped out, but was well worth the sacrifice, tabled opponent at bottom of round 4 )
2020/02/01 09:53:36
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
2 battalions
Draigo, Voldus, Captain (WL-first to the fray), Librarian
6x strike squads, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with halberd )
2x interceptor squads, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with hammer)
1 apothecary
1 ancient (banner of flame)
10 paladins, stormbolters + falchions (sgt with hammer)
game 1 vs chaos, went well, managed to do an inner fire bomb on max unit of chaos terminators
game 2 vs eldar, ynnari, mostly shut down their psychic phase
game 3 vs Dark Angels, used paladins as a distraction, attracted majority of his army towards them, then the strikes/interceptors cleaned house (paladins did get wiped out, but was well worth the sacrifice, tabled opponent at bottom of round 4 )
Good results.
Nevertheless, I wouldn't be too enthusiastic. GK are still not top tier - medium to low tier is my guess.
If you play in a larger tourney in the top bracket, I see GK on the loosing side.
You guys think GK smite spam could be a competetive thing ? Triple batalion (18 CP) of mostly infantry:
EDIT: Forgot to mention, thats a 2k points
1.
GMNDK with sword
Draigo
3x5 strike squad
Apothecary
Paladin Ancient
5x Paladins
2.
GMNDK with sword
Librarian
3x5 Strike squad
3.
Brother-Captain
Castellan Crowe
3x5 Strike squad
Basicly what you do is you try to set up big blob around middle of table so most of units get benefit from draigo rerolls AND +1 to cast smites, aswell as you use tide to generate +1 mortal wound, and brother-captain to increase smite's range into 24".
You can gate GMNDK's into side flanks of the map to fight for some objectives but you should focus more on a single side/middle board couse you are best at mid-24"ish-range
Its ~15 smite's with +1 to cast and +1 to wound for a total of 30+ mortal wounds every turn.
Additionally, you have ~50 storm bolter shoots with a rerolls to hit so GL getting into a close range
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/01 22:58:01
2020/02/01 23:37:50
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Jabberscythe wrote: You guys think GK smite spam could be a competetive thing ? Triple batalion (18 CP) of mostly infantry:
EDIT: Forgot to mention, thats a 2k points
1.
GMNDK with sword
Draigo
3x5 strike squad
Apothecary
Paladin Ancient
5x Paladins
2.
GMNDK with sword
Librarian
3x5 Strike squad
3.
Brother-Captain
Castellan Crowe
3x5 Strike squad
Basicly what you do is you try to set up big blob around middle of table so most of units get benefit from draigo rerolls AND +1 to cast smites, aswell as you use tide to generate +1 mortal wound, and brother-captain to increase smite's range into 24".
You can gate GMNDK's into side flanks of the map to fight for some objectives but you should focus more on a single side/middle board couse you are best at mid-24"ish-range
Its ~15 smite's with +1 to cast and +1 to wound for a total of 30+ mortal wounds every turn.
Additionally, you have ~50 storm bolter shoots with a rerolls to hit so GL getting into a close range
I think you'd be better off dropping down to double battalion and swapping some of the strikes for interceptors, they are straight-up better than strikes and you should maximize those. Purgation squads aren't bad either, point is you don't need that much CP/it's not worth ONLY taking strikes.
I've been running about 65 power-armor bodies and it's worked out so far; but to be fair I'm probably the biggest Paladin-bomb skeptic I know (I'm keeping an open mind and will test one though!). I also haven't been building lists with GMDK, only vehicle is a Ven Dread to hide with Astral Aim.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/02/01 23:53:10
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Elric Greywolf wrote: So unbuffed/with passive buffs (ie. Draigo and Tide), psycannons are a bit ahead.
But as soon as you start giving active buffs (ie. powers, litanies, and strats), the psilencers pull massively ahead.
Would it make sense to have your forward drop paladin squad, Draigo, and attendants use psycannons and focus the litanies and stratagems onto psilencer purgation squads to yield the best benefit then?
2020/02/02 00:03:25
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Maximizing interceptors throws me into space marine wagon, and I dont need GK to do it actually.
This list was aboute maximizing 2wounds smite to replace regular shooting with psychic powers (against some -1 to hit lists, like possesed and all nurgle demons, all type of flyers and other weird combinations of really unkillable units)
Also dropping GMNDK's and palladins might be actually decent option, so you leave opponent's multiple wound weapons only being able to do 1 dmg anyway. Might reconsider that.
2020/02/02 00:09:51
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Jabberscythe wrote: Maximizing interceptors throws me into space marine wagon, and I dont need GK to do it actually.
This list was aboute maximizing 2wounds smite to replace regular shooting with psychic powers (against some -1 to hit lists, like possesed and all nurgle demons, all type of flyers and other weird combinations of really unkillable units)
Also dropping GMNDK's and palladins might be actually decent option, so you leave opponent's multiple wound weapons only being able to do 1 dmg anyway. Might reconsider that.
Interceptors give you mobility to jump over screens, which is important since smites hit the closest unit. They can also jump over screens to assault units or grab objectives with their shunts.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/02/02 00:16:22
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So basically not enough to make them actually work taking. Also is that taking into account the D2 vs D1+D3 damage?
Dude...you do realize that is basically every armor profile in the game right? They are better vs literally every vehicle and anything with a 2+ save. You have storm bolters for everything else. Just talking about the tides here. Cause there is a lot more to playing GK than buffing one squad. Plus - to save lots of points and maintain melee ability - your buff stratagems will be best played on units of 10 storm bolters.
Xenomancers wrote: They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.
Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.
Well, that doesn't cover any 2+ armour save targets. So it would be a bit of a blanket statement to say that the psilencer is better in "every case".
You're missing the psycannon difference shooting with ToC against some of the really competitive / uber tough units eg:
- Riptides (usually coming in groups of 2-3)
- Leviathan Dreads (usually buffed with Iron Hands top-tier rules)
- Telemon Dreads (Custodes' main ranged anit-armour model)
- Good old landraider (accessible for every SM army, and usually coming with 4 lascannons a model)
I haven't seen a competitive SM list with a LR is quite a while, and i can tell you as a Custodies player the Telemon is not a good example of anti-tank, Riptides and Leviathans on the other hand are great examples.
This is giving me a lot more to think about, thank you.
You can do it in more than 1 turn. You just can't do it 2 turns in a row. Ultimately you are always going to use the psychic tide 95% of the time. If you are in a different tide - you change to psychic at the start of the psychic phase. Then they next turn you can do it again.
So if all goes well. Turn 1 if you go first you will start in psychic and change to shooting hoping to deal lots of damage.
I see your point for sure about psilencers. They are both pretty frigging bad weapons when they aren't in the shooting tide. So if you intend to not be in that tide often. (every other turn) I wouldn't bother taking any of them. Because your units are always moving and negative to hit modifiers. They are terrible weapons. The psicannon at least bring ap-1 though which helps vs units that are getting 2+ saves. Another thing storm bolters struggle with. The shooting tide makes psycannons the superior choice though. It's harder to argue against it. Just do the math.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/02 05:16:57
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/02/02 09:55:14
Subject: Re:Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
Xenomancers wrote: They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.
Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.
I didn't make that spreadsheet, not sure why it's being attributed to me!
On the shooting tide psi-weapons thing, remember that you can ALWAYS shoot one squad in the tide of convergence each turn if you're flip-flopping, since you have the ability to shoot in the psychic phase. You just pick when you swap tides (beginning or end of psychic phase, depending on which one you're in). With Draigo, potential +6" range from a chaplain and/or astral aim I think it's totally worth having a 100 pt purgation squad just to buff up every turn...and maybe just do one of each loadout and buff the more appropriate one for the threat (like AM players with basilisk+wyvren do) or even on TOC turns use psychic onslaught in the psychic phase on one squad and again in the shooting phase on the other (and even psybolt some storm bolters too if you want to go all in).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/02 10:14:04
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/02/02 10:42:25
Subject: Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!
tksolway wrote: Can GK use the Masters from Faith and Fury? I'd love to use the Apothecary rules there.
Don't think so, I don't have Faith & Fury but Codex: Space Marines specifically calls out GK as not being "Space Marines" or "<Chapter>".
The books says you can apply these to models found in the "Space Marine Codex". I was hoping it was FAQ'ed or clarified or something, somewhat annoying that apparently the Grey Knights forgot how to be good Librarians or Apothicarians ... :-(
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/02 16:21:46
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