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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Redemption wrote:
- Against MEQ (T4 3+), 6 SB and 4 psilences gives the best overal result. But against 1 or 2 wound models 10 SB are cheaper and more reliable.


What makes them more reliable? They are dealing the same damage to 1 or 2 wound models, are they not? What am i missing?
(asking honestly/earnestly)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/30 17:52:06


 
   
Made in nl
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





The Netherlands

Homeskillet wrote:
I disagree; Paladins have the TERMINATOR keyword, but they are a GREY KNIGHTS PALADIN unit. GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS are a separate unit. I think the Masters of Combat stratagem bolsters that argument; otherwise there would be no need to differentiate the two. I also should say that I hope there's an FAQ proving me wrong.

I definitely works on Paladins (and Paladin Ancients, Apothecaries and all Terminator HQ models). If it was just the Terminator unit, they would have used the TERMINATOR SQUAD keyword, added a specific exclusion for the PALADIN keyword or simply wouldn't have used keywords at all.

Just like Vengeance of the Machine Spirit works on all Land Raider variants or Big Guns Never Tire doesn't require a unit called "Vehicle".

MiguelFelstone wrote:
 Redemption wrote:
- Against MEQ (T4 3+), 6 SB and 4 psilences gives the best overal result. But against 1 or 2 wound models 10 SB are cheaper and more reliable.


What makes them more reliable?

They are dealing the same damage to 1 or 2 wound models, and looking at your chart Psilncers and bolters still deal more damage than just bolters alone to even T3 targets.
17.78 for the Stormbolters, 18.67 for the combined weapons, and it gets worse from there.

Because of the D3 damage of psilencers. When shooting at a 2 wound model like a Primaris marine, the average of D3 damage is indeed 2, but 3 damage is overkill and 1 damage doesn't kill the target.

And when ToC is active, psilencers do D3+1, so any roll of 2 or 3 is overkill, which will lower the actual amount of kills. Then just compare the amount of unsaved wounds to get the number of kills.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 18:08:05


   
Made in de
Hungry Little Ripper





 Redemption wrote:
Homeskillet wrote:
I disagree; Paladins have the TERMINATOR keyword, but they are a GREY KNIGHTS PALADIN unit. GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS are a separate unit. I think the Masters of Combat stratagem bolsters that argument; otherwise there would be no need to differentiate the two. I also should say that I hope there's an FAQ proving me wrong.

I definitely works on Paladins (and Paladin Ancients, Apothecaries and all Terminator HQ models). If it was just the Terminator unit, they would have used the TERMINATOR SQUAD keyword, added a specific exclusion for the PALADIN keyword or simply wouldn't have used keywords at all.

Just like Vengeance of the Machine Spirit works on all Land Raider variants or Big Guns Never Tire doesn't require a unit called "Vehicle".



This..

The codex specifically states "GREY KNIGHTS TERMINATOR UNIT"
it doesnt talk about "squad"

both the terminators and the paladins have the "Grey Knights Terminator" Unit keyword. so it works on both

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 18:09:10


 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Redemption wrote:
Homeskillet wrote:
I disagree; Paladins have the TERMINATOR keyword, but they are a GREY KNIGHTS PALADIN unit. GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS are a separate unit. I think the Masters of Combat stratagem bolsters that argument; otherwise there would be no need to differentiate the two. I also should say that I hope there's an FAQ proving me wrong.

I definitely works on Paladins (and Paladin Ancients, Apothecaries and all Terminator HQ models). If it was just the Terminator unit, they would have used the TERMINATOR SQUAD keyword, added a specific exclusion for the PALADIN keyword or simply wouldn't have used keywords at all.

Just like Vengeance of the Machine Spirit works on all Land Raider variants or Big Guns Never Tire doesn't require a unit called "Vehicle".


For an even better example, the new 4++ Stratagem for Purifiers calls out <GREY KNIGHTS PURIFIER SQUAD>, which means Crowe is not a valid target despite having the <PURIFIER> keyword.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in nl
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





The Netherlands

Yup, and Duty Eternal also works on Venerable Dreadnoughts.

   
Made in de
Hungry Little Ripper





 Waking Dreamer wrote:
 FFridge wrote:
You missed the litany that adds-1 ap.

And we have to question wheter the extra price of 4 psi cannons is worth the extra 0.3 unsaved Wound / 0.6 damage on keq / veq

That 440 vs 460 for a full squad. Thats 1 extra interceptor model with a extra 4 stormbolter Shots worth


Well that is before the unit takes casualties.

Unless you expect your 30W paladin unit to get completely wiped in one turn, in subsequent shootings a reduced unit of say 5 paladins consisting of:
- 5 Stormbolters would seem to preform increasingly worse than:
- 1 Stormbolter + 4 psycannons vs VEQ / KEQ.

So you have to consider that extra 20 points preforming better over 2-3 turns.


I think thats all down to how you want to play and what tactics you are trying to use

if im gonna use a massive alpha strike of 120 stormbolter fire + 8 smites + inner fire + a potential vortex of doom then i would expect the enemy to be hobbled enough that it will be enough to win

theres still the potential of draigo soloing a knight alone with inner fire + hammerhand + melee combat and our army really isnt durable enough to last that long and wittle down the enemy

in times with lots of indirect fire (thunderfire cannons, curse you) you are at a huge disadvantage with 1 health models and overpriced 2 health terminators if you want a long drawn out fire duel
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Redemption wrote:
Homeskillet wrote:They are dealing the same damage to 1 or 2 wound models, and looking at your chart Psilncers and bolters still deal more damage than just bolters alone to even T3 targets.
17.78 for the Stormbolters, 18.67 for the combined weapons, and it gets worse from there.

Because of the D3 damage of psilencers. When shooting at a 2 wound model like a Primaris marine, the average of D3 damage is indeed 2, but 3 damage is overkill and 1 damage doesn't kill the target.

And when ToC is active, psilencers do D3+1, so any roll of 2 or 3 is overkill, which will lower the actual amount of kills. Then just compare the amount of unsaved wounds to get the number of kills.


I get that, but during Tide of Convergence your bolters are still doing the same damage to Primaris Marines, 2 damage, so what makes them more reliable? @ 6 shots does moving really negate 1/3rd of your shots?
Overkill or not your still killing the same number of marines are you not?
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 FFridge wrote:
 Waking Dreamer wrote:
 FFridge wrote:
You missed the litany that adds-1 ap.

And we have to question wheter the extra price of 4 psi cannons is worth the extra 0.3 unsaved Wound / 0.6 damage on keq / veq

That 440 vs 460 for a full squad. Thats 1 extra interceptor model with a extra 4 stormbolter Shots worth


Well that is before the unit takes casualties.

Unless you expect your 30W paladin unit to get completely wiped in one turn, in subsequent shootings a reduced unit of say 5 paladins consisting of:
- 5 Stormbolters would seem to preform increasingly worse than:
- 1 Stormbolter + 4 psycannons vs VEQ / KEQ.

So you have to consider that extra 20 points preforming better over 2-3 turns.


I think thats all down to how you want to play and what tactics you are trying to use

if im gonna use a massive alpha strike of 120 stormbolter fire + 8 smites + inner fire + a potential vortex of doom then i would expect the enemy to be hobbled enough that it will be enough to win

theres still the potential of draigo soloing a knight alone with inner fire + hammerhand + melee combat and our army really isnt durable enough to last that long and wittle down the enemy

in times with lots of indirect fire (thunderfire cannons, curse you) you are at a huge disadvantage with 1 health models and overpriced 2 health terminators if you want a long drawn out fire duel
A 3" deep strike of a 10 man strike squad with super storm bolters will kill 2 thunderfire cannons. Both smite and or ignore cover and LOS will work to get the job done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just built a list that has all the elements I want.
3x batallions
6hqs
2x brother caps with psycannons
1x Libby
1x Chaplain
Draigo
Voldus
1x 10 man strike
8x 5 man strikes with psycannons
1x 10 man interceptor
1x Ven dred with twinlas and missle.

This gives you turn 1 10 super SB attack and turn 2 as well with a 10 man strike. You got the chappy for -1 AP. Draigo handing out the rerolls to you strikes with psycannons and duouble brother captains putting down some additional psycannon fire and making sure as many units are pumping out 24" smite as possible.

Ven dread sits in the back killing TFC and stuff you don't want to be hiding.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 18:43:34


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




This isn't a personal attack, i just want to know why you prefer cannons to psilncers? On paper they deal more damage/wounds to every target including knights (they are also cheaper)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 18:54:49


 
   
Made in nl
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





The Netherlands

MiguelFelstone wrote:I get that, but during Tide of Convergence your bolters are still doing the same damage to Primaris Marines, 2 damage, so what makes them more reliable? @ 6 shots does moving really negate 1/3rd of your shots?
Overkill or not your still killing the same number of marines are you not?

Yeah, but it inflates the average damage dealt in the chart. So when shooting at T4 W2 3+ models, 10 SB with ToC and PA kill 8.89 models on average, while 6 SB + 4 psilencers with ToC and PO kill 8. But if the unit has moved that drops to 6.67 kills.

Of course, as has been said, if half the unit is killed, 1 sb + 4 psilencers definitely do more damage than 5 stormbolters, and are less reliant on CP. There's a defintely case for always taking 4 heavy weapons in a 10 man squad for that reason alone, even if 10 SB do more damage in some cases.

MiguelFelstone wrote:This isn't a personal attack, i just want to know why you prefer cannons to psilncers? On paper they deal more damage/wounds to every target including knights (they are also cheaper)

No, with Tide of Convergence, psycannons deal more or equal damage to T7/8 3+ models than the psilencers. But without any buffs psilencers indeed do more damage.

Or when buffed that much that the extra armour penetration of the psycannon does not matter, because of invulnerable saves. E.g., when buffed by Psychic Onslaught, Tide of Convergence and Invocation of Focus, and shooting at a Imperial Knight with 3+ 5++, a psilencer does more damage than a psycannon because the extra armour penetration from Invocation of Focus doesn't help the psycannon any.

   
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They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.

The math has already been over in this thread. The cost difference is negligible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 19:23:49


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.


Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.
   
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Xeno, that list looks really interesting. Please play it and let me know how it goes.

I was enamored by the paladin bomb but there are so many moving parts I'm not confident in my ability to make it all work.

Not sold on the psycannons vs psilencers. Will have to see it in a test.

Scared to only put 60 marine wounds on the table (well, less than that will me "on" the table) with crazy IF artillery companies out there which can almost pick it up in 2 turns if they go first.

Those 18 cp sure seem sweet though. If I could just find a way to squeeze a second 10 man strike/incerceptor in there I would feel better about board control/bodies on table but I think I'd lose too much downgrading voldus and draigo...
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






its best if you just do 1 weapons at a time on its own with no buffs to compare efficiency.

In tide of convergence
t7 3+ save target a psycannon does 1.77 damage (better than a ap-4 lascannon on average which does 1.5 damage on average)

a psilencer does 1.33 on average even with a max damage roll it does 1.77 which matches the psycannons average roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote:
Xeno, that list looks really interesting. Please play it and let me know how it goes.

I was enamored by the paladin bomb but there are so many moving parts I'm not confident in my ability to make it all work.

Not sold on the psycannons vs psilencers. Will have to see it in a test.

Scared to only put 60 marine wounds on the table (well, less than that will me "on" the table) with crazy IF artillery companies out there which can almost pick it up in 2 turns if they go first.

Those 18 cp sure seem sweet though. If I could just find a way to squeeze a second 10 man strike/incerceptor in there I would feel better about board control/bodies on table but I think I'd lose too much downgrading voldus and draigo...

Draigo IMO is not a requirement. Maybe even a liability at the cost of more bodies. Replacing him with another bro captain with a psycannon nearly gets you to another 10 man strike but there isn't a lot of room to wiggle in after that. Downgrading 1 HQ to a brotherhood champ or tech marine...that is how youd have to do it. Those guys are not great though.

If are just dumb - ignore cover on every attack in your army is too powerful ESP with doctrines giving you an additional ap-1 too...That was pretty poorly thought out by GW. GW didn't think it was good enough so they also gave them exploding 6's too. HAHA. Oh well. IF are just a really bad matchup for GK. You will do fine though if you actually get cover saves.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/01/30 20:22:56


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
its best if you just do 1 weapons at a time on its own with no buffs to compare efficiency.


You just said lets compare them one : one with no buffs and then the very next sentence you state you'll be in Tide of Convergence the entire game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 20:18:08


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






MiguelFelstone wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
its best if you just do 1 weapons at a time on its own with no buffs to compare efficiency.


You just said lets compare them one : one with no buffs and then the very next sentence you state you'll be in Tide of Convergence the entire game.

Well there is your answer. You aren't using tide of convergence. Tide on convergence basically free. If you plan to be in it often (IE every turn as I explained) - you bring psycannons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 20:26:53


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
MiguelFelstone wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
its best if you just do 1 weapons at a time on its own with no buffs to compare efficiency.


You just said lets compare them one : one with no buffs and then the very next sentence you state you'll be in Tide of Convergence the entire game.

Well there is your answer. You aren't using tide of convergence. Tide on convergence basically free. If you plan to be in it often (IE every turn as I explained) - you bring psycannons.


It's not free, your giving up super smites and considering how many units your fielding that seems like a mistake to gain a slight advantage agasint T7 targets.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






MiguelFelstone wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
MiguelFelstone wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
its best if you just do 1 weapons at a time on its own with no buffs to compare efficiency.


You just said lets compare them one : one with no buffs and then the very next sentence you state you'll be in Tide of Convergence the entire game.

Well there is your answer. You aren't using tide of convergence. Tide on convergence basically free. If you plan to be in it often (IE every turn as I explained) - you bring psycannons.


It's not free, your giving up super smites and considering how many units your fielding that seems like a mistake to gain a slight advantage agasint T7 targets.

Ahh - are you aware you can take advantage of 2 tides in 1 turn? You can start in the psychic tide and then change to tide of convergence at the end of the psychic phase and just blow your opponent off the table. That is my plan anyways. We will see. This is all theory craft about how effective this will actually be. Even later in the game I think ill be buffing a 5 man strike squad to have damage str 5 dmg 2 SB - esp since I am bringing a chaplain with the -1 AP ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 20:43:54


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in au
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





MiguelFelstone wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.


Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.


Well, that doesn't cover any 2+ armour save targets. So it would be a bit of a blanket statement to say that the psilencer is better in "every case".

You're missing the psycannon difference shooting with ToC against some of the really competitive / uber tough units eg:
- Riptides (usually coming in groups of 2-3)
- Leviathan Dreads (usually buffed with Iron Hands top-tier rules)
- Telemon Dreads (Custodes' main ranged anit-armour model)
- Good old landraider (accessible for every SM army, and usually coming with 4 lascannons a model)

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Ahh - are you aware you can take advantage of 2 tides in 1 turn?


Yes, are you aware you can only do that once per game? At least in match play games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Waking Dreamer wrote:
MiguelFelstone wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.


Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.


Well, that doesn't cover any 2+ armour save targets. So it would be a bit of a blanket statement to say that the psilencer is better in "every case".

You're missing the psycannon difference shooting with ToC against some of the really competitive / uber tough units eg:
- Riptides (usually coming in groups of 2-3)
- Leviathan Dreads (usually buffed with Iron Hands top-tier rules)
- Telemon Dreads (Custodes' main ranged anit-armour model)
- Good old landraider (accessible for every SM army, and usually coming with 4 lascannons a model)


I haven't seen a competitive SM list with a LR is quite a while, and i can tell you as a Custodies player the Telemon is not a good example of anti-tank, Riptides and Leviathans on the other hand are great examples.
This is giving me a lot more to think about, thank you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/30 20:59:47


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Waking Dreamer wrote:
MiguelFelstone wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
They do more damage vs most units if you are in the shooting tide. Which I intend to be in nearly every turn.


Greyknights spreadsheet shows this is clearly not the case, unbuffed Psilncers are dealing 4 damage to T6/7 3+ targets, Psicannons deal 3. Start using stratagems and it's even more skewed. Against IKs/T8 they are dead even, so in every case the Psilncer is better as they are cheaper and equal or outperform cannons agasint every target.


Well, that doesn't cover any 2+ armour save targets. So it would be a bit of a blanket statement to say that the psilencer is better in "every case".

You're missing the psycannon difference shooting with ToC against some of the really competitive / uber tough units eg:
- Riptides (usually coming in groups of 2-3)
- Leviathan Dreads (usually buffed with Iron Hands top-tier rules)
- Telemon Dreads (Custodes' main ranged anit-armour model)
- Good old landraider (accessible for every SM army, and usually coming with 4 lascannons a model)

Which in those cases you're better off with Super Smite because Iron Hands can block shooting with Intercessors and the bodyguard Strat, and can minimize damage too (which then the Psilencer is gold again).

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





I'm suddenly really confused about what's going on and what's being discussed here.

I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm suddenly really confused about what's going on and what's being discussed here.

I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.


The former (Stormbolters) was suggested earlier this week and backed up by some bogus math on reddit. Obviously they aren't better.

The later has been vigorously debated since RotDs release. I'm of the opinion now; While the Psilncer is still the best overall weapon system, Psicannons have their place as AT (T7/2+), i plan on running 2 on my Brother Captains this week to see how it plays on the table top.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





MiguelFelstone wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm suddenly really confused about what's going on and what's being discussed here.

I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.


The former (Stormbolters) was suggested earlier this week and backed up by some bogus math on reddit. Obviously they aren't better.

The later has been vigorously debated since RotDs release. I'm of the opinion now; While the Psilncer is still the best overall weapon system, Psicannons have their place as AT (T7/2+), i plan on running 2 on my Brother Captains this week to see how it plays on the table top.


My matlab license has expired, otherwise I'd take a look at the math myself. That said, the only way I can see that might come to that conclusion would be considering mobile psilencers/psycannons versus storm bolters, which is I guess a fair consideration.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm suddenly really confused about what's going on and what's being discussed here.

I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.

Well under Psibolt and the Tide, they're S6 AP-2 Rapid Fire 2 D2
For the points it isn't hard to see that there would be situations you want that, especially since Psycannons miss half their shots on the move. At least Psilencers have more weight of fire making them significantly more flexible.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





MiguelFelstone wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm suddenly really confused about what's going on and what's being discussed here.

I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.


The former (Stormbolters) was suggested earlier this week and backed up by some bogus math on reddit. Obviously they aren't better.

The later has been vigorously debated since RotDs release. I'm of the opinion now; While the Psilncer is still the best overall weapon system, Psicannons have their place as AT (T7/2+), i plan on running 2 on my Brother Captains this week to see how it plays on the table top.


I believe the sentiment may come from the idea that ToC + PsyAmmo strat gives Storm bolters a proportionally higher boost compared to it's base profile - not hard considering as stated, it starts off with the weakest profile at S4 AP0 D1. Also each Storm bolter is only 2 points compared to 4 point psilencer and 7 point psycannon. So some theorycrafters may intrinsically be comparing the value of one psilencer or psycannon to 2 storm bolters and 3+ storm bolters respectively, and deciding the use of the 2CP + ToC on a more costly GK special weapon (with the -1 to hit on the move), isnt worth the consideration in the list-building stage.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Waking Dreamer wrote:
MiguelFelstone wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I'm suddenly really confused about what's going on and what's being discussed here.

I'm not entirely certain how Storm Bolters can outperform stationary Psilencers or Psycannons, given that neither of the upgrades has any characteristic where they're weaker than the Storm Bolter, and the only potential point to come up shorter would be because they're Heavy and they moved.


The former (Stormbolters) was suggested earlier this week and backed up by some bogus math on reddit. Obviously they aren't better.

The later has been vigorously debated since RotDs release. I'm of the opinion now; While the Psilncer is still the best overall weapon system, Psicannons have their place as AT (T7/2+), i plan on running 2 on my Brother Captains this week to see how it plays on the table top.


So some theorycrafters may intrinsically be comparing the value of one psilencer or psycannon to 2 storm bolters and 3+ storm bolters respectively, and deciding the use of the 2CP + ToC on a more costly GK special weapon (with the -1 to hit on the move), isnt worth the consideration in the list-building stage.


In the example i mentioned (reddit) he was comparing them on solely on their performance alone and coming to the conclusion that the idea 10 man Paladin loadout was 10 Stormbolters.
   
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Dimmamar

 Redemption wrote:

No, with Tide of Convergence, psycannons deal more or equal damage to T7/8 3+ models than the psilencers. But without any buffs psilencers indeed do more damage.


So this is not at all the results I get. Assume 4 heavy weapons vs a KEQ (T8, 3+/5++). With simply Convergence and Focus, having moved and no rerolls, the Psycannons (16 shots S8 AP-2 D2) do 2.667 total wounds for 5.333 damage. The Psilencers (24 shots S5 AP-1 Dd3+1) do 2 unsaved wounds for 6 damage.
Also note that the psilencers, with two unsaved wounds, can do anywhere from 4-8 damage, while the psycannons are capped at 4.

Now, if we add Draigo and Bring down the Beast, those numbers change:
  • Psycannons - 6 unsaved wounds, 12 damage

  • Psilencers - 5 unsaved wounds, 15 damage


  • Note again that, with six unsaved wounds, psycannons will always have 12 damage. Whereas, with five unsaved wounds, psilencers will be anywhere from 10 to TWENTY, which far outperforms the psycannons.

    Now, if we put Guidance litany on the psycannons versus Power litany for psilencers...well, mathhammer won't let me reroll damage so I can't do that, but presumably I'd hit that 16 wound mark a lot with the psilencers. So let's just put Guidance on both.
  • Psycannons - 7.111 unsaved wounds, 14.222 damage

  • Psilencers - 5.926 unsaved wounds, 17.778 damage. Better than the psycannons!


  • And if you add in Psychic Onslaught...
    (so we've got a Draigo reroll, Bring Down the Beast, Guidance and Focus litanies, Convergence, and Psychic Onslaught)
  • Psycannons (S9 AP-3 D2) - 8.428 unsaved wounds, 16.856 damage

  • Psilencers (S6 AP-2 Dd3+1) - 7.901 unsaved wounds, 23.704 damage. Reroll one of these damage dice, and you've killed a Knight (although it costs 5CP, two passive buffs, and two active buffs)


  • There's a clear winner, and it isn't the psycannon.

    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/01/31 03:19:16


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    That base D1 kills the Psycannon, period. I mean, if it had something else going for it like range or some proc rule or...anything, I might use them.

    Right now I'm toying a 22 Paladin list. 2× 6 man units with Psilencers and then a 10 man with 4 Incinerators just to see if the one strat is worth it. It probably won't be so I'll likely scrap it before even getting halfway through the list process.

    CaptainStabby wrote:
    If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

     jy2 wrote:
    BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

     vipoid wrote:
    Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

     MarsNZ wrote:
    ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
     
       
    Made in us
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     Elric Greywolf wrote:
    There's a clear winner, and it isn't the psycannon.


    I thought they made a case for higher armor save targets but ya that's what i've got on pretty much all accounts.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
    That base D1 kills the Psycannon, period. I mean, if it had something else going for it like range or some proc rule or...anything, I might use them.

    Right now I'm toying a 22 Paladin list. 2× 6 man units with Psilencers and then a 10 man with 4 Incinerators just to see if the one strat is worth it. It probably won't be so I'll likely scrap it before even getting halfway through the list process.


    Are you going to have the CP to run that many Paladins? You could easily burn half a dozen points per round on one unit.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/31 01:05:44


     
       
     
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