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Probably too expensive to repeatedly switch between, but I can certainly see going Smite to Double Psybolt on your first big turn. Likely turn 3, assuming turn one is spent in the shadows.

 Badablack wrote:
You can also use psybolt ammo twice a turn, doing it once in the psychic phase and again in the shooting phase.

Ooh, so dump your 2D smites, swap to the psy-tide, shoot in psychic phase, shoot in shooting phase?

Any bets on how fast it'll be FAQ'd?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
You can also use psybolt ammo twice a turn, doing it once in the psychic phase and again in the shooting phase.

Ooh, so dump your 2D smites, swap to the psy-tide, shoot in psychic phase, shoot in shooting phase?

Any bets on how fast it'll be FAQ'd?

Depends on 2 psychic powers going off and costs a good chunk of CP, only works on turns you start in the +1 Smite Tide.. Seems fine.

 LunarSol wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
You can also use psybolt ammo twice a turn, doing it once in the psychic phase and again in the shooting phase.

Ooh, so dump your 2D smites, swap to the psy-tide, shoot in psychic phase, shoot in shooting phase?

Any bets on how fast it'll be FAQ'd?

Depends on 2 psychic powers going off and costs a good chunk of CP, only works on turns you start in the +1 Smite Tide.. Seems fine.

Oh, not FAQd because it's too strong, but because it's rather counterintuitive and only works because of an out of date wording.

What would people recommend building towards for a 1k list? I'm looking to start a lower model count army.

 Dendarien wrote:
What would people recommend building towards for a 1k list? I'm looking to start a lower model count army.

If you're looking for low model count but still competitive i'd go with a single battalion with Paladins, @ 2k just add another battalion and support characters.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
You can also use psybolt ammo twice a turn, doing it once in the psychic phase and again in the shooting phase.

Ooh, so dump your 2D smites, swap to the psy-tide, shoot in psychic phase, shoot in shooting phase?

Any bets on how fast it'll be FAQ'd?

Can't shoot again after using Edict Imperator. But being able to use Psybolt Ammo twice a turn is situationally pretty dang good.

Greyknight and other contributors, please show your work, it's not that i don't trust you i'd just really like to avoid threads like this where people are claiming Stormbolters are better than Psilencers because "maths".

I also don't want to hear anything about climate change or the world being round just because of "science".
May the lord guide us finding the right loadouts!

 Dendarien wrote:
What would people recommend building towards for a 1k list? I'm looking to start a lower model count army.

I ran GMNDK[Sword, Psycannon, Incinerator], Grandmaster[Hammer], Strikes[Halberd]x3, Paladin Ancient, Paladins[Halberd], & a Venerable Dreadnought[Twinlas, Missiles] for a small game recently. I think it did very well. If I'm called upon for another small game, I might try Interceptors or Purgation instead of the Paladin Ancient.

I haven't picked up the new book yet, so I don't have anything else productive to add. Pulling the stunt with the smites then Edict Imperator sounds fun, but also really CP hungry given the general shortage of CP. Maybe do it with Purgation squads already in position for some pretty damaging effect.

Aeri wrote:
I also don't want to hear anything about climate change or the world being round just because of "science".
May the lord guide us finding the right loadouts!

I put "maths" in quotations because even a college dropout like myself could see he missed the mark.

If that thread is "science" it's the anti vax version of GK theorycrafting, and people are quoting it like it's gospel because the guy put numbers in his post, or making smart ass remarks defending the author without bothering to read the thread.
(here's a clue: Stormbolters aren't better than Psilcners on a 10 man Paladin unit).

And if you want to refute his claim, why dont you show your math to prove it? Right now the whole thing is a he said she said claim, just that one side has shown the numbers and the other hasnt to disprove it

 FFridge wrote:
And if you want to refute his claim, why dont you show your math to prove it? Right now the whole thing is a he said she said claim, just that one side has shown the numbers and the other hasnt to disprove it

Hence my request to the better Grey Knight players here, i'm not a statistician but i know how to use mathhammer and his post doesn't seem right, and it sure as hell shouldn't be used as a justification for fielding naked Paladins.

a 10 Paladin squad, on the move, in Tide of Convergence and using either Onslaught or Ammo targeting a unit of Primaris Marines:

Psilcner + Tide of Convergence + movement + Onslaught
12 damage + 7 from the other bolter models
19 damage total

Stormbolters + Tide + Ammo + movement
17 damage

https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/web/

To avoid confusion people need to be specific about their numbers.

Consider a 10-man Paladin unit can consist of as posted in the mathhammer link:

1. 10 storm bolters
2. 6 storm bolters + 4 psilencers
3. 6 storm bolters + 4 psycannons

^ The results of each of those load-outs in terms what will put out the most damage is dependent on what type of unit that Paladinstar is actually shooting at.

No way are 10 Storm bolters going to be dishing out more hurt on a leviathan dread, a Riptide castle, or triple Executioners...than either the psilencers OR psycannons load out.

Spending an extra 8-12 points on your 10-man Paladin unit to carry your GK special psi weaponry - can be more than worth it, depending on what enemy units you plan to be facing down with what's supposed to be your ace Paladin-star.

Well, I can do some math:



Averaged the psilencers' damage of D3 to 2, and did not take into account overkill. Although for single wound models just look at the Unsaved Wounds column.
And of course Psilencers and Psycannons get a penalty when moving, which stormbolters don't.

Conclusion when equipping a 10 man squad:
- Against MEQ (T4 3+), 6 SB and 4 psilences gives the best overal result. But against 1 or 2 wound models 10 SB are cheaper and more reliable.
- Against VEQ (T7 3+), 6 SB and 4 psycannons are only good during Tide of Convergence, otherwise 6 SB + 4 Psilencers get better results.
- Against KEQ (T8 3+), 6 SB and 4 psycannons are better than 6 SB + 4 Psilencers if you have both Psychic Onslaught and Tide of Convergence.

Does that sound about right?

Source Excel in attachments if you want to check the formulas or play with different numbers.

I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.

Adeptus Custodes and Death Guard have been trying to make death stars work (with better tools) all edition and with one outlier it is not exactly rocking the meta. Chaos is currently tryharding with their 'Possessed Bomb' as well.

You missed the litany that adds-1 ap.

And we have to question wheter the extra price of 4 psi cannons is worth the extra 0.3 unsaved Wound / 0.6 damage on keq / veq

That 440 vs 460 for a full squad. Thats 1 extra interceptor model with a extra 4 stormbolter Shots worth

 Redemption wrote:
Well, I can do some math:

Spoiler:

Abbreviations:
PA: Psybolt Ammo
PO: Psychic Onslaught
TOC: Tide of Convergence

Averaged the psilencers' damage of D3 to 2, and did not take into account overkill. Although for single wound models just look at the Unsaved Wounds column.
And of course Psilencers and Psycannons get a penalty when moving, which stormbolters don't.

Conclusion when equipping a 10 man squad:
- Against MEQ (T4 3+), 6 SB and 4 psilences gives the best overal result. But against 1 or 2 wound models 10 SB are cheaper and more reliable.
- Against VEQ (T7 3+), 6 SB and 4 psycannons are only good during Tide of Convergence, otherwise 6 SB + 4 Psilencers get better results.
- Against KEQ (T8 3+), 6 SB and 4 psycannons are better than 6 SB + 4 Psilencers if you have both Psychic Onslaught and Tide of Convergence.

Does that sound about right?

Source Excel in attachments if you want to check the formulas or play with different numbers.

Thanks for sharing! Do you have the ability to run those numbers that take into account moving with the Heavy weapons? I'm curious if the weight of fire from the Psilencer shifts the numbers further.

I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.

In fact, it is questionable if a Pali-star gets more than one round of (efficient) shooting.
Marines are very shooty these days and can eventually reduce the number of Palis quickly.

 wuestenfux wrote:

I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.

In fact, it is questionable if a Pali-star gets more than one round of (efficient) shooting.
Marines are very shooty these days and can eventually reduce the number of Palis quickly.

Thats why we have 2 new Defensive stratagems and a Defensive Aura on Top of sanctuary now.

-1 Hit -1 damage, miss on wound 1-3 ontop of 4++ should Help a bit but im gonna leave other GK players decide in that as im still building my paladins

Remember that Chaplains have a 5+++ aura Litany as well, that's pretty darn good even if you're not going for a Paladin bomb.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Remember that Chaplains have a 5+++ aura Litany as well, that's pretty darn good even if you're not going for a Paladin bomb.

Note that it's only for Mortal Wounds though, not regular wounds.

 Redemption wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Remember that Chaplains have a 5+++ aura Litany as well, that's pretty darn good even if you're not going for a Paladin bomb.

Note that it's only for Mortal Wounds though, not regular wounds.

Whelp, that'll teach me to read the rules properly next time.

 FFridge wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.

In fact, it is questionable if a Pali-star gets more than one round of (efficient) shooting.
Marines are very shooty these days and can eventually reduce the number of Palis quickly.

Thats why we have 2 new Defensive stratagems and a Defensive Aura on Top of sanctuary now.

-1 Hit -1 damage, miss on wound 1-3 ontop of 4++ should Help a bit but im gonna leave other GK players decide in that as im still building my paladins

Redoubtable Defense doesn't work for Paladins, I believe. It specifically states it to be used for Grey Knight Terminators, not things with the Terminator Keyword. I would love to use that on a Pally Bomb though.

Lets also just consider for a minute that a 10 man strike squad or purgation squad or even purifiers can do the exact same damage as those paladins for about 1/3 the cost - slightly worse melee.

Paladins IMO are garbage in the new rule set. They are still t4 and mass AP-2/3 is all over the place. I doubt they will survive one turn if put on the table. So the 3 10 man units (or 6 5 mans) of strikes is going to be better almost always because it also generates 5/10 CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dendarien wrote:
What would people recommend building towards for a 1k list? I'm looking to start a lower model count army.

I'd probably go for something like a batallion with Voldus a bro champ and 3 strikes and some venerable dreads.

 Homeskillet wrote:

 FFridge wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.

In fact, it is questionable if a Pali-star gets more than one round of (efficient) shooting.
Marines are very shooty these days and can eventually reduce the number of Palis quickly.

Thats why we have 2 new Defensive stratagems and a Defensive Aura on Top of sanctuary now.

-1 Hit -1 damage, miss on wound 1-3 ontop of 4++ should Help a bit but im gonna leave other GK players decide in that as im still building my paladins

Redoubtable Defense doesn't work for Paladins, I believe. It specifically states it to be used for Grey Knight Terminators, not things with the Terminator Keyword. I would love to use that on a Pally Bomb though.

It states GREY KNIGHTS TERMINATOR unit, so it's applicable for Paladins too.

 Homeskillet wrote:
Thanks for sharing! Do you have the ability to run those numbers that take into account moving with the Heavy weapons? I'm curious if the weight of fire from the Psilencer shifts the numbers further.

Yeah, that's simply changing the BS to 4 for the heavy weapons in the Excel:


So when on the move, that actually makes stormbolters with pa & toc the highest damage dealers against all 3 targets. Of course that damage drops a lot when you run out of CP.

 FFridge wrote:
You missed the litany that adds-1 ap.

I didn't include any buffs from other units, but adding -1 to psi weapons isn't hard:

Without moving:

And with moving

 FFridge wrote:
You missed the litany that adds-1 ap.

And we have to question wheter the extra price of 4 psi cannons is worth the extra 0.3 unsaved Wound / 0.6 damage on keq / veq

That 440 vs 460 for a full squad. Thats 1 extra interceptor model with a extra 4 stormbolter Shots worth

Well that is before the unit takes casualties.

Unless you expect your 30W paladin unit to get completely wiped in one turn, in subsequent shootings a reduced unit of say 5 paladins consisting of:
- 5 Stormbolters would seem to preform increasingly worse than:
- 1 Stormbolter + 4 psycannons vs VEQ / KEQ.

So you have to consider that extra 20 points preforming better over 2-3 turns.

Well, Paladins are Terminators.

A Paladin star should as every other star unit survive one round of shooting to rinse and repeat.
This is highly questionable as the enemy will pour every shot into this unit.
However, this should leave the other units unharmed to go for the opponent's throat.

 Waking Dreamer wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

 FFridge wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I don't think "death stars" are a viable tactic in 8th edition. Building a 'paladin star' seems like a trap.

In fact, it is questionable if a Pali-star gets more than one round of (efficient) shooting.
Marines are very shooty these days and can eventually reduce the number of Palis quickly.

Thats why we have 2 new Defensive stratagems and a Defensive Aura on Top of sanctuary now.

-1 Hit -1 damage, miss on wound 1-3 ontop of 4++ should Help a bit but im gonna leave other GK players decide in that as im still building my paladins

Redoubtable Defense doesn't work for Paladins, I believe. It specifically states it to be used for Grey Knight Terminators, not things with the Terminator Keyword. I would love to use that on a Pally Bomb though.

It states GREY KNIGHTS TERMINATOR unit, so it's applicable for Paladins too.

I disagree; Paladins have the TERMINATOR keyword, but they are a GREY KNIGHTS PALADIN unit. GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS are a separate unit. I think the Masters of Combat stratagem bolsters that argument; otherwise there would be no need to differentiate the two. I also should say that I hope there's an FAQ proving me wrong.