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Basically do you believe that Guilliman is a better ruler for the Imperium than his father?

The Emperor isn't ruling anything right now. So, by default, yes.

But Guilliman has no plan for permanently saving humanity from Chaos, only for preserving the Imperium for a bit longer. So, in that sense, he's not even a pale imitation of his father.

I think you need to phrase your question more precisely to get any sort of meaningful answer.

Yes? I mean, the novels seem to make it quite clear that the Emperor didn't really care that much about humanity, or the Imperium except as a means to an end.

Now, you nominally have Guilliman, who sees the state that the Imperium is in, is appalled, and is in a position to begin to do something about it. Clearly there has been much more intentional activity since Guilliman took over the reins, which while it may not "win", at least the Imperium can do a better job and perhaps turn things around (prolonging its agony? Or eeking out a slightly less horrifying demise? :-)

Guilliman was created to be the perfect politician/statesman. The Emperor. He inspires people through debate and logic.

The Emperor... well we don't see him being a Statesman. Most of our view of him is from how the Imperium views him. A Primarch is much more relatable than the Emperor on paper. But the Emperor's interaction with people is all based on his Psychic Aura. For instance when Techpriest Land meets with the Emperor he see's a cold calculating logical man worthy of being the Omnissiah.

He's kind of like Camille from Red Dwarf. She'll be your perfect mate if no one else is around, but as soon as there are more people around she's pretending to be their individual best person.

That being said The Emperor is an environmentalist and killed off people who stole water. So yeah... be the change you want in the world.

The emperor cared for humanity’s survival but cared nothin for the survival of any other particular human.

I think RG cares for both.

I think their goals are different and so comparing them may be truly difficult. I think RGs end state would be more desirable as a citizen than whatever the emperor would have left us with. But then the emperor created RG and the vision that RG would seek to implement. So does that always make him better?

 Cruentus wrote:
Now, you nominally have Guilliman, who sees the state that the Imperium is in, is appalled, and is in a position to begin to do something about it.

Arguably at least part of the Imperiums problems are self made, as he reorganised the post heresy goverment into a Guilliman-centric system and then removed himself with no path of succession.

Yes and by a long distance.

Roboute both cares and is, to be blunt, not an idiot. The Emperor is both uncaring and incompetent.

mrFickle wrote:
The emperor cared for humanity’s survival but cared nothin for the survival of any other particular human.

I think RG cares for both.

I think their goals are different and so comparing them may be truly difficult. I think RGs end state would be more desirable as a citizen than whatever the emperor would have left us with. But then the emperor created RG and the vision that RG would seek to implement. So does that always make him better?

This is what I think makes Roboute Guilliman a much better statesman. The Emperor is so fixated on the big picture that he doesn't see the forest for its trees and just the forest in its entirety. Where as Roboute cares for individuals as well. Which is important because like rot in a single tree will spread throughout the whole forest, so will the rot on individual humans spread from one to next. The Emperor was so overly fixated on his long term goals for humanity and caring for the entirety of humanity that he forgot that it was the individual humans he cared little for which makes up the humanity he cared a lot for.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Basically do you believe that Guilliman is a better ruler for the Imperium than his father?

Considering that Guilliman is a better diplomat, planner, and administrator? I would say yes.

Guilliman's only shortcoming in the "modern" Imperium is that he lacks the Emperor's raw charisma and street cred. So, the Primarch can't just bulldoze his way through the more secretive, hidebound, and corrupt amongst the Imperium's power structure (i.e. the Inquisition, Administratum, Grey Knights, etc). He has to play nice, and use diplomacy, old fashioned politicking, and subtle pressure to get things done with that crowd.

Does RG see the scope of The Emp’s plan to guide humanity’s evolution into a (safe) psychic race? For many editions this evolution has been the (secret?) cornerstone of The Imperium. At what level, if at all, does this purpose register with RG? And is the project even a good idea?

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Guilliman was created to be the perfect politician/statesman. The Emperor. He inspires people through debate and logic.

The Emperor... well we don't see him being a Statesman. Most of our view of him is from how the Imperium views him. A Primarch is much more relatable than the Emperor on paper. But the Emperor's interaction with people is all based on his Psychic Aura. For instance when Techpriest Land meets with the Emperor he see's a cold calculating logical man worthy of being the Omnissiah.

He's kind of like Camille from Red Dwarf. She'll be your perfect mate if no one else is around, but as soon as there are more people around she's pretending to be their individual best person.

That being said The Emperor is an environmentalist and killed off people who stole water. So yeah... be the change you want in the world.

And who created Guilliman?

We shouldnt have to look through novels and specifics to know that the Emperor was obviously humanity's best hope. If Black Library took Emp a different direction and made him a benevolent and caring person would that change anything? Would it change anything when you realize an author trying to write about a super-genius from the future can easily screw up if he cant even comprehend the mind of the character hes writing about? How about if BL never tried to flesh out his character and kept him more of a mystery? (Because thats how they screw up)

If we did go into specifics, just compare what Guilliman is doing now as opposed to what you think the Emperor would have done. Knowing the Emps it would have been something real grand

Maybe once Chaos is gone, RG will be the perfect leader.

But RG cannot beat Chaos.

123ply wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Guilliman was created to be the perfect politician/statesman. The Emperor. He inspires people through debate and logic.

The Emperor... well we don't see him being a Statesman. Most of our view of him is from how the Imperium views him. A Primarch is much more relatable than the Emperor on paper. But the Emperor's interaction with people is all based on his Psychic Aura. For instance when Techpriest Land meets with the Emperor he see's a cold calculating logical man worthy of being the Omnissiah.

He's kind of like Camille from Red Dwarf. She'll be your perfect mate if no one else is around, but as soon as there are more people around she's pretending to be their individual best person.

That being said The Emperor is an environmentalist and killed off people who stole water. So yeah... be the change you want in the world.

And who created Guilliman?

We shouldnt have to look through novels and specifics to know that the Emperor was obviously humanity's best hope. If Black Library took Emp a different direction and made him a benevolent and caring person would that change anything? Would it change anything when you realize an author trying to write about a super-genius from the future can easily screw up if he cant even comprehend the mind of the character hes writing about? How about if BL never tried to flesh out his character and kept him more of a mystery? (Because thats how they screw up)

If we did go into specifics, just compare what Guilliman is doing now as opposed to what you think the Emperor would have done. Knowing the Emps it would have been something real grand

I would've settled for competent at this point.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Basically do you believe that Guilliman is a better ruler for the Imperium than his father?

Considering that Guilliman is a better diplomat, planner, and administrator? I would say yes.

Guilliman's only shortcoming in the "modern" Imperium is that he lacks the Emperor's raw charisma and street cred. So, the Primarch can't just bulldoze his way through the more secretive, hidebound, and corrupt amongst the Imperium's power structure (i.e. the Inquisition, Administratum, Grey Knights, etc). He has to play nice, and use diplomacy, old fashioned politicking, and subtle pressure to get things done with that crowd.

I'd argue that's a positive. Guilliman knows how to deal with problems that won't vanish on their own and can't just magic his way through them. The Emperor ran into that and it promptly fell apart completely due to obvious issues like huge parts of his armed forces following someone else quite explicitly.

As an aside to everyone talking about the Emperor being better because he had a plan for all humanity I want to point out that the plan was awful and was veeeeery unlikely to work.

Really hard to be a worse blundering dummy than the man that doomed Humanity, so yeah, Rowboat is better.

Cronch wrote:
Really hard to be a worse blundering dummy than the man that doomed Humanity, so yeah, Rowboat is better.

I didn't think we were talking about Magnus, Erebus or Kor Phaeron...

I hate to to defend these guys, but Erebus and kor phaeron weren’t bumbling!

Also, what is the power of Man compared to that of the Gods?

pm713 wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Basically do you believe that Guilliman is a better ruler for the Imperium than his father?

Considering that Guilliman is a better diplomat, planner, and administrator? I would say yes.

Guilliman's only shortcoming in the "modern" Imperium is that he lacks the Emperor's raw charisma and street cred. So, the Primarch can't just bulldoze his way through the more secretive, hidebound, and corrupt amongst the Imperium's power structure (i.e. the Inquisition, Administratum, Grey Knights, etc). He has to play nice, and use diplomacy, old fashioned politicking, and subtle pressure to get things done with that crowd.

I'd argue that's a positive. Guilliman knows how to deal with problems that won't vanish on their own and can't just magic his way through them. The Emperor ran into that and it promptly fell apart completely due to obvious issues like huge parts of his armed forces following someone else quite explicitly.

As an aside to everyone talking about the Emperor being better because he had a plan for all humanity I want to point out that the plan was awful and was veeeeery unlikely to work.

Plus, it makes Guilliman more interesting and offers plenty of storytelling opportunities.


As for the last, I would say that the Emperor had the best of intentions. But his inability to be flexible, with his "my way or the highway" attitude, was a disaster waiting to happen. And it did when he alienated Guilliman and left Lorgar open to the scheming of Erebus. It could be argued that the Horus Heresy began with the razing of Monarchia and humiliation of the Word Bearers legion.

I think Emp's "not seeing the trees for the forest" is a pretty apt comparison.
Emp was so focused trying to save humanity he doomed it instead. He is extremely important to humanity, he had a noble goal. But he was really not a good leader - his power made him effective at doing the things he wanted to do more than it was actual leadership. He created the context in which to view him and he's still doesn't compare all that favorably.
(Also, I fundamentally take exception to his xenophobia. The lore is entirely too forgiving/constructed to make it OK in this regard.)

I think RG, on the other hand, is a pretty good leader. Particularly in the context he has to work with.

mrFickle wrote:
The emperor cared for humanity’s survival but cared nothin for the survival of any other particular human.

I think RG cares for both.

I think their goals are different and so comparing them may be truly difficult. I think RGs end state would be more desirable as a citizen than whatever the emperor would have left us with. But then the emperor created RG and the vision that RG would seek to implement. So does that always make him better?

A good observation. Master of Mankind (not surprisingly) gives us the best look at what the Emperor's ends and means were.

Anyone who seriously thinks Guilliman is a better ruler than The Emperor is deluded I'm afraid. Roboute Guilliman is a glorified Diplomat, not a leader. The Emperor is literally fighting an endless rearguard battle against the forces of the warp. If he wasn't doing that humanity would already have been obliterated thousands of times over. If he fails even for a second the net result will be the same. Humanity endures because of the Emperor. Not because of Guilliman. Ask yourself this; if the Emperor had truly died, do you really think that Humanity would have survived post-heresy? Seriously?

It's almost 100% guaranteed that if the Emperor never existed humanity would have died-out as simian half-apes living in craters and throwing their own poo at one another. The Imperium exists because of the Emperor. The alliance between Terra and Mars exists because of the Emperor. The Astartes exist because of the Emperor. The Primarchs existed/exist because of the Emperor.

Chaos doesn't exist because of the Emperor. Mitigation of the forces of Chaos exists because of the Emperor.
The Emperor is playing 4D warp-chess against invincible odds in a situation where rules do not even matter. Guilliman's difficulties do not even begin to approximate those faced by the Emperor. If the Emperor did somehow physically revive humanity would immediately be the most dominant force in the Universe. Saying Guilliman is a better leader than Emps is like saying that the head cleaner at a Goldman sachs Office tower is a better leader than Lyod Blankfien. It's about scale of responsibility and pressure.


I'm pretty sure the Emperor will become a warp God or will ascend to something like that. That seems to be the direction the lore is heading.

You had somewhat of a good point when you said RG is more a diplomat than a leader, but you failed to make a case for why The Emperor is a better leader than RG. All you argued was the Emperor is an indispensable and flashy magic draught-excluder.

nareik wrote:
You had somewhat of a good point when you said RG is more a diplomat than a leader, but you failed to make a case for why The Emperor is a better leader than RG. All you argued was the Emperor is an indispensable and flashy magic draught-excluder.

I would have thought this was obvious.

The state of the imperium is currently absolutely nowhere near as dire as the state of humanity before the rise of the Emperor. It's not even close. Terra was literally a war-torn, unified shitscape ruled over by Despots who had their heyday for a few days and then died like flies at the end of summer. The galaxy itself consisted of seperate planets filled with humans and ab-humans with little to no contact, sense of belonging, or identity whatsoever. Terrawas a ruinous, isolated backwater of depravity and chaos. There was no rule of law, no guarantees of protections. No state, no justice, a complete stagnation of progress and technology at every level. There was no society.

And then the Emperor came along and created the thunder warriors, scoured the planet of any and all resistance, and brought order to the planet. Did he do this brutally and with no regard for human life? Yes. Did he do this superbly and efficiently? Yes. He created a pact with Mars. He unified the various human-inhabited planets of the Galaxy--not close to all of them, but he was getting work done. He promoted science and rationality over religion and would be/ is disgusted by the echlesiarchy and their order in 40k. Again, The Imperium exists because of the Emperor, and is a creation of the Emperor.

What has Guilliman ever actually achieved, in comparison? Killed some Nids and fought to a draw against Mortarion. Woop de doo da. Cawl created the Primaris. Not Guilliman.



Guilliman manages the day-to-day duties and care of the Imperium but he is not, never was, and will never be a patch on the Emperor. The intellect of the Emperor in 40K is almost incomprehensible in scale. Guilliman doesn't even understand what he's doing and/or planning any more than a fly can understand how a television works. All he knows is that the Emperor doesn't really give a gak about any single human, astartes, or Primarch, but sees everything in terms of the best outcomes for Humanity and the Imperium as a whole. That, and he will use Guilliman with the same disregard somebody uses a can opener. And that is what an executive leader should be like, especially in the Grimdark future of the 41st Millenium.

The Emperor may not have been able to outplay the Chaos Gods, but papa smurf wasn't even able to avoid being captured and locked up in Blackstone Fortress.

The Emperor overthrowing tyrants to be a bigger tyrant doesn’t make him a good leader. He swept in, rubber stamped himself as leader and moved on.

Horus and his space marines conquering the galaxy doesn’t make The Emperor a good leader. The sway Horus had over the galaxy despite being an upstart shows how weak the Emperor’s position as leader was.

The Emperor not being able to see person and only the people doesn’t make him a good leader. His vision for humanity left him blinded to the weaknesses of many of his most important men.

nareik wrote:
The Emperor overthrowing tyrants to be a bigger tyrant doesn’t make him a good leader. He swept in, rubber stamped himself as leader and moved on.

Horus and his space marines conquering the galaxy doesn’t make The Emperor a good leader. The sway Horus had over the galaxy despite being an upstart shows how weak the Emperor’s position as leader was.

The Emperor not being able to see person and only the people doesn’t make him a good leader. His vision for humanity left him blinded to the weaknesses of many of his most important men.

Well yeah, but again--he was trying to play 4D Chess against the Chaos Gods. All of them. The Emperor is himself a warp creation, let's not forget. And the primarchs are all just 'parts' of the Emperor; each of them represents one aspect of his abilities. The question isn't whether or not the Emperor miscalculated; the question is what would have happened if it had been Guilliman acting in his stead.

Now, I can't imagine anyone who has read the novels would believe in that instance things would have gone better. I can tell you for a fact 100% That Chaos-Infused Horus would have just merked Roboute Horribly. Sanguinus was ten times the warrior Gulliman was or ever will be and even he fell to Horus. And The primarchs rarely ever got along anyway--one could argue that they only ever tolerated one another out of respect for the Emperor.

Here's the thing people seem to miss:

The real tragedy in the Horusy Heresey is that the reason it happened is because the Emperor allowed himself to become blind by acting as the leader you claim he never was and believe Guilliman is. There was a time when the Emperor did truly love his sons, and humanity,and until the end, he believed his favorite son could be redeemed. It was the human part of the Emperor that allowed the Heresy to happen. The man was flawed, not the leader.

The abiding theme of the 40K, if there is one, is that it is a universe in which it is impossible to be good. And that is because the beings in it are not Good. That is why the Warp, which is filled with collective unconsciousness, if you want to call it that, of all the entities in it, is the worst place imaginable.There are no true 'Order' Gods, because whenever they arise they are instantly devoured. The warp itself is benign. It is kind of like the force in star wars in a way, and is just a medium.

Roberts84 wrote:

nareik wrote:
You had somewhat of a good point when you said RG is more a diplomat than a leader, but you failed to make a case for why The Emperor is a better leader than RG. All you argued was the Emperor is an indispensable and flashy magic draught-excluder.

I would have thought this was obvious.

The state of the imperium is currently absolutely nowhere near as dire as the state of humanity before the rise of the Emperor. It's not even close. Terra was literally a war-torn, unified shitscape ruled over by Despots who had their heyday for a few days and then died like flies at the end of summer. The galaxy itself consisted of seperate planets filled with humans and ab-humans with little to no contact, sense of belonging, or identity whatsoever. Terrawas a ruinous, isolated backwater of depravity and chaos. There was no rule of law, no guarantees of protections. No state, no justice, a complete stagnation of progress and technology at every level. There was no society.

A galaxy of humans and abuhumans doing generally okay, or no worse than they are now, but now they have PURPOSE. Which is to pray and serve mindlessly a husk of an idiot who failed at a basic task of commanding loyalty.
But I guess ONE PLANET is now a massive sprawling city, so that's worth dooming entire human race to endless decay.

Cronch wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:

nareik wrote:
You had somewhat of a good point when you said RG is more a diplomat than a leader, but you failed to make a case for why The Emperor is a better leader than RG. All you argued was the Emperor is an indispensable and flashy magic draught-excluder.

I would have thought this was obvious.

The state of the imperium is currently absolutely nowhere near as dire as the state of humanity before the rise of the Emperor. It's not even close. Terra was literally a war-torn, unified shitscape ruled over by Despots who had their heyday for a few days and then died like flies at the end of summer. The galaxy itself consisted of seperate planets filled with humans and ab-humans with little to no contact, sense of belonging, or identity whatsoever. Terrawas a ruinous, isolated backwater of depravity and chaos. There was no rule of law, no guarantees of protections. No state, no justice, a complete stagnation of progress and technology at every level. There was no society.

A galaxy of humans and abuhumans doing generally okay, or no worse than they are now, but now they have PURPOSE. Which is to pray and serve mindlessly a husk of an idiot who failed at a basic task of commanding loyalty.
But I guess ONE PLANET is now a massive sprawling city, so that's worth dooming entire human race to endless decay.

lol they were not doing 'generally ok'. Those worlds were isolated ravaged gak holes destroyed, alienated and violated beyond comprehension during the dark age of technology and the age of strife. The worst things that have ever happened to humanity happened sans Emperor...really, even the Horus Heresy was not as bad as either of those things. It wasn't until the great crusades that were as any semblance of order, or rule of law, or protection of humans of any kind pretty much anywhere.

Or that's what imperial propaganda, which is the lore, have you believe. Emps and his merry genocide men destroyed plenty of perfectly functional human and even human-alien societies.

Name three of them.