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Just about any of them.
Before Emps:
maybe killed or enslaved by aliens/local tyrant, maybe functional multi-planet state.
After Emps:
Enslaved, killed for any transgression, forced into mind-washing cult after his death, and still not guaranteed that an alien/chaos invasion won't just steamroll your system before Imperium's geriatric central control system sends help.

Imperium is deadlier to humans than anything short of Tyranids. Hell, Chaos is more meritocratic and reasonable at times (and at other times, is as randomly genocidal as Imperium).

That's not even including all the other, non-major alien civilization that were destroyed by Emps and his Imperium becuse of his xenophobia. Emps was the bad guy.

Cronch wrote:
Just about any of them.

Then you can name them.

All of them. Every single human being in the galaxy. Even being eaten by orks was a more humane fate than being "united" under grandpappy taking notes from PolPot.

Cronch wrote:
All of them.

So you can't name one. Good to know you're admitting you're wrong. I mean feth, I can think of a couple myself, but not going to help you name them if you're gonna try to divert from the question like this.

 Melissia wrote:

Cronch wrote:
All of them.

So you can't name one. Good to know you're admitting you're wrong. I mean feth, I can think of a couple myself, but not going to help you name them if you're gonna try to divert from the question like this.

You’re claiming him refusing to name examples is him admitting he is wrong, but then you claim you know named examples yourself. This seems so obtuse to me I’m just going to put you on ignore so I don’t get unwittingly dragged into a similar ‘discussion’.

Cronch wrote:
All of them. Every single human being in the galaxy. Even being eaten by orks was a more humane fate than being "united" under grandpappy taking notes from PolPot.

I'm sure those isolated worlds would do so very well against a hive fleet, an Ork Waagh, or a Necron awakening. The Emperor foresaw these calamities, knew that outside of the galaxy everything was hostile and sought to forge a bastion for humanity while knowing what even the best-case scenario would cost.

Could RG do any of this if you placed him on Terra with no support, none of his augments, just a man with a dream?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Cronch wrote:
All of them. Every single human being in the galaxy. Even being eaten by orks was a more humane fate than being "united" under grandpappy taking notes from PolPot.

I'm sure those isolated worlds would do so very well against a hive fleet, an Ork Waagh, or a Necron awakening. The Emperor foresaw these calamities, knew that outside of the galaxy everything was hostile and sought to forge a bastion for humanity while knowing what even the best-case scenario would cost.

Could RG do any of this if you placed him on Terra with no support, none of his augments, just a man with a dream?

Not everything was hostile. Well not until the Emperor started out at least.

Hive Fleets, Orks and Necrons all have alternative solutions that don't require the Emperor except the Hive Fleets which aren't even a problem if you remove the Emperor.

Roboute could easily have taken Terra and started a Crusade just one without an idiot in charge.

pm713 wrote:
Not everything was hostile. Well not until the Emperor started out at least.

Hive Fleets, Orks and Necrons all have alternative solutions that don't require the Emperor except the Hive Fleets which aren't even a problem if you remove the Emperor.

Roboute could easily have taken Terra and started a Crusade just one without an idiot in charge.

He could have done all this starting without his weapons, his armor, his augmentations, without any of the Emperor's blessings?

pm713 wrote:
Hive Fleets, Orks and Necrons all have alternative solutions that don't require the Emperor except the Hive Fleets which aren't even a problem if you remove the Emperor.

Can you clarify the point regarding the Hive Fleets, please?

I'm also intrigued as to your "alternative solutions" to any of these threats.

The Emperor has two main faults.

First, he has a pathological hatred of religion. Second, he demands full compliance while offering enlightenment and not recognising that the two are mutually exclusive.
Both harmed the Imperium greatly.

The Emperor's claim that he was not a god and wanted to usher in an age of atheistic enlightenment has merit under its own system. 40K is from a human perspective an atheistic setting, there is no human god. However Eldar gods existed and co-existed with the Emperor, the the Emperor could not have been ignorant of the chaos gods.
Now the Emperor might have taught his primarchs there is no god, but he didn't explain why religion was wrong. He didn't explain to anyone what would happen if they prayed anyway. He had his second dogma to blame, his demand for unthinking compliance. The Primarchs were his children, they just have to obey. No, sorry. They are enlightened beings.

Monarchia is the catalyst of both events. Lorgar was forced into complaince because the Emperor had his atheist dogma bug. Progress comes 'when the last priest is killed by a stone falling from the last collapsing temple', paraphrased from original quote. To him religion was simply wrong headed and you shouldn't do it, he did not credit Lorgar with any further explanation.
The Emperor should have known better, Lorgar's people had religiosity and would return to a faith practice sooner or later. Lorgar still wanted to find gods, and sent his most trust servants out looking. They found some. Everyone paid.
Lorgar was faithful in both senses of the word, had his father warned him of the dark gods Lorgar would have avoided them. They would eventually either quietly returned to emperor worship or more likely built shrines to Isha, or Cegorach. Gods that can be proven to exist. This may still have resulted in heresy but it would be a quiet heresy, especially if Lorgar became an Isha worshipper.

The Emperors blind dogma also hurt him with regards to Magnus. Magnus used sorcery, sorry sorcery is forbidden, again with compliance required without explanation. However the level of crass dogmatism in the emperor made it easy for Horus to trick Russ into a full scale assault on Prospero. This was the Emperors fault ultimately. Had he had a resputation of fairness with his sons, Russ would not have unquestioningly forced a compliance. However the punishment of Prospero was preceded with the punishment of Monarchia. Guilliman nuked Monarchia because Lorgar built shrines. Admittedly Guillimen applied the compliance punishment in a way to cause minimum casualties and force Lorgar to submit quietly. Russ was not the same, but he was sensible enough that he would have questioned the cleansing order had it not been for Monarchia. After all when Lorgar's continuing existence was questioned, Russ spoke up for him. Russ said that he had lost two brothers already and did not want to lose a third. So it was evident that at some point the Emperor was contemplating an annihilation. All that for the crime of prayer.

The irony is now ten millenia later it is a crime worthy of death not to pray, and the Adepta Sororitas show evidence of miraculous faith in their God-Emperor. Was the Emperor in denial on his own status in the galaxy, or can the miracles be explained another way. Maybe faith itself is a collective psychic manifestation, somewhat similar to the orks. Maybe the Adepta Sororitas gain power from faith through other means.

The Emperor was too dogmatic to be a good ruler. Too dogmatic for his own good and ultimately too dogmatic for everyone elses. Guilliman is to be respected, he understands fully his fathers opinion and directives on faith. He was the one two nuked Monarchia, and he took on this unpleasant task as nobly as he could, rounding up the population with minimum casualties and leading them out of the city before nuking it. Some fought and died, others including the Blessed Lady hid and got nuked. But most got out ok. when we think of criticising him for this know that prior to this point in circumstances only a handful of people are aware of, Guilliman being one of them, two Primarchs and their entire legions were destroyed. Guilliman did his best to teach Lorgar this hard lesson his way.

We do not know if Erebus was already a servant of the dark gods by the cleansing of Monarchia or if it happened shortly after. But he was the true implement of the fall, and Erebus was and is a competent leader and a credible top tier threat. It was his work that made the 13th Black Crusade a victory, and I wonder if Abaddon can get anything done without his hand to guide the hosts of chaos.
Kor Phaeron is not in the same league, he is respected because he is Lorgar's father, but he has been promoted well above his competency. He is a moustache twirler villain with no real brains behind him. He does his best with the material provided for him, but one should notice that material normally is provided by Erebus, if not Lorgar himself. It is very clear where the true power lies in the Word Bearers legion. No Kor Phaeron is no great competent, but he is capable enough, or more accurately he is surrounded by powerful fanatics who dare not touch him and can be steered together as a coterie when under his banner, and predicatable enough that he can be useful when steered by greater minds. Kor Phaeron is definitely Erebus's useful idiot, and is dangerous because Erebus knows how to use him. Erebus is seen as a 'douch' on 1d4chan, I dont think that is in any way fair, he is not one to initiate random cruelties while laughing maniacally. He sometimes does exactly that, but in each case he has a long term agenda and his cruelties are anything but petty, but well chosen assaults disguised as the random pique of chaos atrocity.

 Dysartes wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Hive Fleets, Orks and Necrons all have alternative solutions that don't require the Emperor except the Hive Fleets which aren't even a problem if you remove the Emperor.

Can you clarify the point regarding the Hive Fleets, please?

I'm also intrigued as to your "alternative solutions" to any of these threats.

During the Heresy the Night Lords and Ultramarines fought over a device called the Pharos and destroyed it. This sent out a psychic flare thingy that drew the attention of the Tyranids. Therefore if you remove the Heresy then the Tyranids never notice our galaxy and drift along until they hit gold.

The alternate solutions vary. Things like Orks you still have to kill, Dark Eldar you can essentially contain to a large degree by guarding webway gates and things like Craftworlders and Interex you just talk to. You'd get much farther with friends than by killing literally everyone who disagrees with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not everything was hostile. Well not until the Emperor started out at least.

Hive Fleets, Orks and Necrons all have alternative solutions that don't require the Emperor except the Hive Fleets which aren't even a problem if you remove the Emperor.

Roboute could easily have taken Terra and started a Crusade just one without an idiot in charge.

He could have done all this starting without his weapons, his armor, his augmentations, without any of the Emperor's blessings?

Well considering he's a demigod, has access to the same scientists that made the Space Marines and can still use the very potent weaponry of Terra he could have done that.

There are things the Emperor could have done that Roboute can't but the Emperor didn't do them either. For example manipulating the Mechanicus into a position where their religious parts can be curtailed or removed outright.

Haven't seen any evidence that RG is brilliant enough to make the same breakthroughs the Emperor did, because it was the Emperor's own pet project, not merely something he bureaucratically organized.

Also, I think there's some confusion here. No one is saying the Emperor was perfect. But RG has yet to actually prove himself in the lore..

Roberts84 wrote:
Name three of them.

Interex, Diasporex and Auretian Technocracy.

All did perfectly fine before the Great Crusade crushed them.

They are of course also meant to hint at other, similar better survivors of the Age of Strife who don't get screentime mention but met similar fates. Big galaxy, much going on. The early Imperium did not just conquer hopeless post-apocalyptic human societies, and ones enslaved by aliens.

The early Imperium killed all alternative paths of human development in their cradles, locking mankind fully to the false duality of Emperor and Chaos.

This should kill that discussion: The Imperium never were the only viable alternative for the future of humanity.

In fact, the technologically and scientifically regressive Imperium of Man is an obvious dead end. It cannot withstand the Necrons or Tyranids, and thus Imperial mankind is doomed.

Which is proper grimdark, and thus right for the setting (unlike cruel but justified Imperium being the only option for survival, which isn't grimdark enough).

The Imperium is going down like the Romans/Byzantines went down in the Middle Ages: Overwhelmed and outclassed technologically, in spite of their unlikely long run of clinging to empire through ability to adapt and organize; and in spite of their strong defenses, sophisticated grand strategy, inherited ancient professionalism and science, dogged stubborness, faith and occassional strokes of good luck.

Back to Guilliman versus Imperator: Yes, Guilliman ultimately is a superior statesman and organizer compared to his creator. Yet he lacks the powers and inventive genius of the Emperor.

Roberts84 wrote:
Name three of them.

Unfair question.

I cant and maybe neither can you. Remember this is a franchise lore NOT history. So we cant Google the answers somewhere, because GW might never have listed them. We can however find background evidence from the writings of human civilisations destroyed via compliance during the Great Crusade, most are described in detail from a boots on the ground perspective in the novels, but while the civilisations were evident their identity was irrelevant to the narrative.

I know for a fact there was at least two civilised cultured planets out there crushed by refusal to the harsh compliance terms in the Great Crusade, but I cannot name them, or more accurately I cannot be bother skimming through the first hundred pages of First Heretic looking for the name to satisfy your demand. I remember the story well enough though, but not the names because the focus was on Argel Tal leading his soldiers against them, not their own cultures.

Can everyone now stop with the false test please.
- Yes. Many civilisations were assimilated by forced compliance or destroyed in the Great Crusade.
- No. We cannot name them, because GW didn't bother doing so when they made the preceding blanket statements in the lore.

Anyone still not understanding this might help:
There are approximately one thousand chapters of space marines, that is canon. They are important enough the Imperium should be able to list all of them, or list their number as specified restricted information. We cannot because GW has never listed them, for various reasons. This doesn't mean there are not a thousand chapters of space marines.

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
Name three of them.

Interex, Diasporex and Auretian Technocracy.

All did perfectly fine before the Great Crusade crushed them.

They are of course also meant to hint at other, similar better survivors of the Age of Strife who don't get screentime mention but met similar fates. Big galaxy, much going on. The early Imperium did not just conquer hopeless post-apocalyptic human societies, and ones enslaved by aliens.

The early Imperium killed all alternative paths of human development in their cradles, locking mankind fully to the false duality of Emperor and Chaos.

This should kill that discussion: The Imperium never were the only viable alternative for the future of humanity.

In fact, the technologically and scientifically regressive Imperium of Man is an obvious dead end. It cannot withstand the Necrons or Tyranids, and thus Imperial mankind is doomed.

Which is proper grimdark, and thus right for the setting (unlike cruel but justified Imperium being the only option for survival, which isn't grimdark enough).

The Imperium is going down like the Romans/Byzantines went down in the Middle Ages: Overwhelmed and outclassed technologically, in spite of their unlikely long run of clinging to empire through ability to adapt and organize; and in spite of their strong defenses, sophisticated grand strategy, inherited ancient professionalism and science, dogged stubborness, faith and occassional strokes of good luck.

Back to Guilliman versus Imperator: Yes, Guilliman ultimately is a superior statesman and organizer compared to his creator. Yet he lacks the powers and inventive genius of the Emperor.

The interex diplomatic missions went badly because they accused Horus and the imperium more broadly of stealing an Artifact--which they did, it was Erebus, but Horus was not aware this had happened. In fact Horus didn't even know what chaos was at that point. Horus had already turned traitor when the Auretian Technocracy was plundered. Both of those events happened because of Chaos, not the Emperor. Horus wanted the STC's. The Diasporex is pretty much the only example of Genocide that is clear cut; the human elements of that group refused to join the Imperium and were ordered to be exterminated.

And moreover those examples are exceptions to the rule, and citing them is not useful. It's like saying 'Oh, well 2% of people are allergic to Penicillin, therefore penicillin is bad'. The validity or success of anything is never judged by outliers.

The human life that was lost, and would be lost without the Imperium is incalculable.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what amazing feats of leadership and tactical genius Guilliman has ever displayed.

pm713 wrote:

Well considering he's a demigod, has access to the same scientists that made the Space Marines and can still use the very potent weaponry of Terra he could have done that.

There are things the Emperor could have done that Roboute can't but the Emperor didn't do them either. For example manipulating the Mechanicus into a position where their religious parts can be curtailed or removed outright.

Guilliman isn't a demigod without the GEoM so let's takenaway everything the empereor gave him. His augmentation, his training, his semi-divinity and put him where his father stood. Can RG accomplish his mission without standing on the shoulders of the Emperor on his eternal throne?

Roberts84 wrote:Name three of them.

As above, the Interex, Diasporex, and Auretian Technocracy are all valid for this. And while I'm not sure if they'd survive things like Necron incursions, massive Waaagh!s or a Hrud migration, the Imperium only survives those because of it's size. It loses planets on the semi-regular.

Roberts84 wrote:]And moreover those examples are exceptions to the rule, and citing them is not useful. It's like saying 'Oh, well 2% of people are allergic to Penicillin, therefore penicillin is bad'. The validity or success of anything is never judged by outliers.

You asked for three examples of non-Imperial human civilisations. There you go.

I could also cite Knight Worlds (many Knight Worlds remained as bastions of humanity against the Long Night, and while most rejoined the Imperium, they still had survived long enough without them) or even places like Ultramar (which was already a spacefaring mini-Empire in it's own respect, I believe, before Guilliman even landed there as a baby). In fact, you could name literally ANY Primarch homeworld as a bastion of humanity in the pre-Great Crusade galaxy. Obviously, many were better than others (Ultramar, Olympia and Inwit vs Baal, Chemos, and Nostramo), but the very fact that humans were still thriving on those planets says that the Imperium wasn't necessarily critical for human survival.

Unless you were only asking for 3 examples of the Imperium erasing them through military force.

The human life that was lost, and would be lost without the Imperium is incalculable.

Perhaps - but at what cost morally? Thus, the conflict of the grimdarkness.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what amazing feats of leadership and tactical genius Guilliman has ever displayed.

United Macragge and Ultramar under his banner following the assassination of the previous Consul.
Forged his own highly stable empire, which could easily have functioned independently of the rest of the Imperium.
His Codex is still useful 10,000 years after it's creation, even if outdated in parts, but is very much still fit for purpose.
Rallied the remains of the Imperium in the Scouring, leading the push of traitor forces to the Eye.
The Indomitus Crusade has been a success in curtailing the most catastrophic event the galaxy has seen since the birth of the Eye of Terror, and preventing it turning into another Dark Age for half of the Imperium.

But, I respect that a great deal of that is "and everyone said Guilliman was good!" - we're told he was a leader, not shown. So, on that same note, what feats of leadership and tactical genius has the Emperor displayed? I'm talking *displayed*, not "we're told it was smart" or "and everyone just bowed down to him".
Because honestly, given how the Emperor is portrayed, it's hard to believe anyone would actually follow him.

Going back to my first posts, many of the accolades I’m seeing for the Emperor are not evidence for him being a good leader.

I think a problem we are facing here is we are not all arguing under the same definition of ‘leader’.

For example his secret personal war against chaos, while a admirable cause, is not an example of leadership, and indeed the project did undermine his capacity of Emperor.

nareik wrote:
Going back to my first posts, many of the accolades I’m seeing for the Emperor are not evidence for him being a good leader.

I think a problem we are facing here is we are not all arguing under the same definition of ‘leader’.

For example his secret personal war against chaos, while a admirable cause, is not an example of leadership, and indeed the project did undermine his capacity of Emperor.

A lot of this is because we are never shown the Emperor's leadership methods. The story doesn't properly pick up until he Horus Heresy is unavoidable and the GEoM doesn't survive that conflict in a state fit to lead in the traditional sense.

If we get a nice collection of stories about his rise that show him leading and building his empire we'd have more examples to give.

By contrast, we see RG more but accomplishing less so we know his methods but not how effective they are, especially compared to the GEoM.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Well considering he's a demigod, has access to the same scientists that made the Space Marines and can still use the very potent weaponry of Terra he could have done that.

There are things the Emperor could have done that Roboute can't but the Emperor didn't do them either. For example manipulating the Mechanicus into a position where their religious parts can be curtailed or removed outright.

Guilliman isn't a demigod without the GEoM so let's takenaway everything the empereor gave him. His augmentation, his training, his semi-divinity and put him where his father stood. Can RG accomplish his mission without standing on the shoulders of the Emperor on his eternal throne?

By that logic the Emperor is awful because without the developments of others he's some primitive savage with a sharp stick.

If you give Roboute exactly what the Emperor had then you just have someone both stronger than Roboute and smarter than the Emperor anyway.

pm713 wrote:
By that logic the Emperor is awful because without the developments of others he's some primitive savage with a sharp stick.

If you give Roboute exactly what the Emperor had then you just have someone both stronger than Roboute and smarter than the Emperor anyway.

The test of Roboute is if he can start where the Emperor did, and accomplish as much. If you're saying that Roboute cannot stand without the GEoMs gifts the contest is already lost.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

pm713 wrote:
By that logic the Emperor is awful because without the developments of others he's some primitive savage with a sharp stick.

If you give Roboute exactly what the Emperor had then you just have someone both stronger than Roboute and smarter than the Emperor anyway.

The test of Roboute is if he can start where the Emperor did, and accomplish as much. If you're saying that Roboute cannot stand without the GEoMs gifts the contest is already lost.

The problem is you're not being very clear with where this start point is. The Unification War? When the Emperor was born? The Great Crusade? Define the start point because if you just leave it vague then we can go back and forth all day.

pm713 wrote:
The problem is you're not being very clear with where this start point is. The Unification War? When the Emperor was born? The Great Crusade? Define the start point because if you just leave it vague then we can go back and forth all day.

The Emperor's birth. RG is born instead, as baseline as his genetic stock will allow for, the only change is that his lifespan is the same as the Emperor's so he has the same amount of time to work with.

Can he build an Empire that is as encompassing and protected as what the GEoM managed?

For the inverse, the GEoM, rather than dying, takes over RG's body, transforms it into his own baseline form, and continues leading the Imperium. Does he manage to do a better job than RG at keeping thing's together?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The problem is you're not being very clear with where this start point is. The Unification War? When the Emperor was born? The Great Crusade? Define the start point because if you just leave it vague then we can go back and forth all day.

The Emperor's birth. RG is born instead, as baseline as his genetic stock will allow for, the only change is that his lifespan is the same as the Emperor's so he has the same amount of time to work with.

Can he build an Empire that is as encompassing and protected as what the GEoM managed?

Definitely. He has millennia to learn about wars, adapting to change and the psychology behind persuading people. From there he could quite easily installed himself as a ruler either in the DAoT or just conquer things later on like the Emperor. Protecting things is easy because there are still scientists that made things like the Thunder Warriors he can manage/join to eventually create Marine equivalents but without the weirdly stupid xenophobia. Do you know how you can stop almost all Craftworld attacks? Stop killing them for existing. Ditto for a huge amount of the human remnants. A galaxy of friends is much better than a galaxy where literally everyone has to have a war with you.

pm713 wrote:
Definitely. He has millennia to learn about wars, adapting to change and the psychology behind persuading people. From there he could quite easily installed himself as a ruler either in the DAoT or just conquer things later on like the Emperor. Protecting things is easy because there are still scientists that made things like the Thunder Warriors he can manage/join to eventually create Marine equivalents but without the weirdly stupid xenophobia. Do you know how you can stop almost all Craftworld attacks? Stop killing them for existing. Ditto for a huge amount of the human remnants. A galaxy of friends is much better than a galaxy where literally everyone has to have a war with you.

Infant Guilliman has millennia of experience? He's a born as a baby, he has to learn using what's around him just like the GEoM did, no preknowledge unless he's a psyker of some stripe and can pull it from the warp.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Definitely. He has millennia to learn about wars, adapting to change and the psychology behind persuading people. From there he could quite easily installed himself as a ruler either in the DAoT or just conquer things later on like the Emperor. Protecting things is easy because there are still scientists that made things like the Thunder Warriors he can manage/join to eventually create Marine equivalents but without the weirdly stupid xenophobia. Do you know how you can stop almost all Craftworld attacks? Stop killing them for existing. Ditto for a huge amount of the human remnants. A galaxy of friends is much better than a galaxy where literally everyone has to have a war with you.

Infant Guilliman has millennia of experience? He's a born as a baby, he has to learn using what's around him just like the GEoM did, no preknowledge unless he's a psyker of some stripe and can pull it from the warp.

He does when he's born thousands of years before any kind of space travel. I thought I was clear that he'd be getting that experience as he lived not just born with it.

Roboute was smarter than the Emperor in some important manners.

Like I recall razing Monarchia to the ground to have been deemed a bad idea by Roboute and the Empeor forced him to do it anyway.

If that hadn't happened, I am sure Lorgar would have been less of a problem.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Roboute was smarter than the Emperor in some important manners.

Like I recall razing Monarchia to the ground to have been deemed a bad idea by Roboute and the Empeor forced him to do it anyway.

If that hadn't happened, I am sure Lorgar would have been less of a problem.

Lorgar was not a problem, he was inherently loyal, but the Emperor heavy-handedly rejected the form the loyalty took. Had instead the Emperor seen Lorgar's faith as a weird thing that he does and let him be, Lorgasr would not have sought after other gods, and is a rebellion occured via other means he is a good call for remaining a loyalist.

On the other hand I can offer examples of human civilizations that benifited from the arrival of the Emperor, The human slaves of th Nephilim are proably one of the most clear cut examples out there. the people living under them belived the Nephilim where savors, literal gods, but they where literally being prayed upon.we know for the fact that NUMEROUS worlds the Imperium conquered where worlds in the thrall of chaos cults. (Colchis, Davin, numerous others implied through various HH novels) Barbarius was in the thrall to the overlords, eaither Xenos or transhumans so far removed from humanity they might as well have been Xenos. one can hardly claim that the Imperium simply conquered nothing but innocent peoples who would have been all peace and love and had the emperor not arise we would have seen a 40k more akin to star trek then well.. mad max.

in the end the truth is somewhere in between, and we'll never know if the emperor prevented the rise of an enlightened human civilization, or.... the death of humanity...

possiably both

He does when he's born thousands of years before any kind of space travel. I thought I was clear that he'd be getting that experience as he lived not just born with it.

Or he dies in one of the many petty wars fought on preunification Terra. Becomes a gang leader and goes no further than that. What is RG without everything he was given to make him a primarch, without the training and indoctrination of the IoM? We know what the Emperor was, is, but what is Guilliman deep down?