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Standard disclaimer on this just being my opinion, this is (obviously) not backed up with any meaningful gameplay data yet!

So I've gotten to chew my way through the battletome, and I echo my previous sentiment that there are a lot of well-designed rules in there. The rules definitely sell the play style GW advertised as well as the general idea of elven skill. The fluff is good to boot. Unfortunately though, there are too many abilities crammed onto these units to the point where they inevitably compound benefits into overpowered territory. I also have to say that despite my previous hopes the army does have little trouble ignoring enough battleshock to be effectively immune. But it is the easy access to large bubbles of +3 to cast, 5+ fnp, and MW spam that really break the army. Like Bonereapers a lot of this keys off the main special character (Teclis). The named battle cattle also creates an easy combo for a wide spread of -2 to hit, albeit mainly against melee. Couple with some nice perks like having the battleline you were taking anyways fit into a battalion with a character you were taking anyways, aetherquartz for getting through tough situations, and some extremely favorable matchups against magic-heavy and/or low-bravery armies it adds up to something I think has tier-1 potential.

Teclis in general is IMO overpowered, particularly against magic-heavy armies. His ability to auto-cast 4 spells on a 10 is what pushes things over the edge in general, while his within (not wholly within) aura of 4+ against spells is something that unfairly crushes most magic-focused enemies (upside; he is a Tzeentch-breaker).

Light of Eltharion is an inherent balance issue; tough, extra killy and an overall quite powerful model... that completely melts to MWs. This makes his effectiveness swing dramatically based on what unit he is up against, and means his point cost will commonly be off regardless of what it is.

I think troops being able to cast anything they know (instead of only their warscroll spell or allegiance spell) was a mistake since it lets them cast all the realm spells. Hopefully an errata will address that.

Going for raw effectiveness I would personally run a buff bubble with two units of wardens in front, two units of sentinels behind, Teclis, Cathallar, and Twinstones in the middle, Aurulan Legion battalion. 1 auto-unbind, any number of unbinds at +1, 4+ ignore of spells/endless spells (plus MW bounceback), -1 to hit and rr saves of 1 for the block units, usually +3 to cast (depending on what the Twinstone is at), and usually a 5+ fnp (unless the enemy stops Teclis' auto-cast-10 for it), plus the enemy will usually have to spend 2 CP instead of 1 to use a command ability (unless the enemy stops Teclis' auto-cast-10 for it).

But I want to end this on a positive because I really do think this is a good battletome. It takes some actual strategy in listbuilding and formation to layer & stack buffs effectively and it takes a variety of units to make it work. No 'spam this and win' option. Despite a small unit roster there are a lot of quite strong ways to field Lumineth, even when going for tourney-level play (impressive). I have noticed that GW went for a bit of a less-is-more approach with the battletome in some placws; Lumineth have a number of d3 command trait/artifact charts that equivalent battletomes have d6 for, but most of the options are viable as opposed to a minority and I certainly appreciate it. Even better is the two spell lores which are packed full of spells that are both useful and not just different ways to spam MWs. The overall feel of the army is definitely one that reflects the (well-written) fluff in rule form, and my major concerns could mostly be addressed with point changes.


What do you guys think?

Is there anything in there that can raise a sence of ave as the old fantasy swordsmenn? Always strike first, re roll to hit S5 kebab machines where vety unique. (Back in fantasy S5 = -2 AP to boot.)

Yes and no. The hammer bois are the obvious equivalent, yet they don't hit as hard as swordmasters did. They are, however, much more durable.

Don't forget as well Teclis can unbind any amount of spells in enemy hero phase so every spell opponent cast could be stopped by Teclis. And also has an automatic 1 spell unbind in
each hero phase.

Thanks for posting this NinthMusketeer. I won't have my battletome for another two days. One question I've got before everything release, are the Sentinels and Dawnriders available as Battle-line? I know you can only take as many Dawnrider/Sentinels as you have Wardens, but was wondering about Battleline.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Unfortunately though, there are too many abilities crammed onto these units to the point where they inevitably compound benefits into overpowered territory.

Like Bonereapers a lot of this keys off the main special character (Teclis). The named battle cattle also creates an easy combo for a wide spread of -2 to hit, albeit mainly against melee.
What do you guys think?

I particularly agree with these two points - I personally dislike the direction/trend/theme of excessive #s of (albeit fluffy and interesting) warscroll abilities. I like that it provides variety, flavor, and feel, but I dislike the inherent balance challenges - I prefer cleaner, simpler warscrolls with one or two abilities per unit to be the rule rather than the exception. I also personally dislike using named characters, and having most of the recent books being so closely written around centerpiece characters just hits my fluffbone wrong.

As for the overall impact of the tome I think it can go either way. The sheer # of mortal wounds certain units can dish out in spell form is concerning, but I also see them as an army that may be easy to outposition and tie up with chaff to the point that they can be outplayed on the mission, if not killed.

It has our resident game breakers excited, which means that its probably OP or at the very least not a "for fun" book you take to "for fun" games.

However I have not seen it, so I am only going off of their reaction.

Right now their reaction is batting at a 1.000 percent accurate though.

IDK if the book will actually be good without Teclis tho. It feels like you are going to be force to play him. Near 1000pts will literally be heroes and the Battalion, you are looking at only 4x10 mans maybe modify it a bit for 3x10 and 2x5.

If you happen to go against anyone that can deal with in (he is just a 4+ with 5++ if he goes first with 16 wounds), its going to be a bad game. You are requiring low model count army to protect 2 very important heroes while at the same time getting to objectives.

 Thadin wrote:
Thanks for posting this NinthMusketeer. I won't have my battletome for another two days. One question I've got before everything release, are the Sentinels and Dawnriders available as Battle-line? I know you can only take as many Dawnrider/Sentinels as you have Wardens, but was wondering about Battleline.

For each unit of wardens you take, one unit of sentinels or one unit of dawnriders becomes battleline. There is no restriction on how many of those two units you can have; just a limit on how many of them are battleline.


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 Amishprn86 wrote:
IDK if the book will actually be good without Teclis tho. It feels like you are going to be force to play him. Near 1000pts will literally be heroes and the Battalion, you are looking at only 4x10 mans maybe modify it a bit for 3x10 and 2x5.

If you happen to go against anyone that can deal with in (he is just a 4+ with 5++ if he goes first with 16 wounds), its going to be a bad game. You are requiring low model count army to protect 2 very important heroes while at the same time getting to objectives.

I think there are multiple ways to slice a top-grade Lumineth army and while Teclis is the frontrunner that is mainly because of other armies in the meta (mostly just tzeentch, actually). Not bringing him frees up a lot of points, and the named battle cattle plus shining company plus regular battle cattle allows for -2 to hit on multiple units with targeted -3 to hit. Doing an Alarith focus I also feel can work in the hands of a skilled player. Also the twinstones and petrifying rune endless spells are obscenely overpowered for their points cost, which helps any Lumineth army.

I need to read the book again, it was just a first impressions. I personally don't want to take him. But i like lots of models appose to hero hammer. If i wanted hero hammer i would play Movie Marines or for AoS FeC..

It really is only magic armies that will be crapping themselves. A zippy melee army like Orruk Warclans will absolutely eat their lunch, creating a reasonably healthy rock-scissors-paper again in the meta.

I mean, as healthy as a game with such garish imbalances can be. I love AoS, but it and 40k remain terrible examples of both internal and external book balance.

Oh, another sidenote. There are definitely models in the works for other elements as well as other elemental-incarnate-things. The one for wind was even described; a fox-face mask, ribbons coming off it, and a very large bow. And the way the battletome is structured means additional chunks could be added quite seamlessly.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
It really is only magic armies that will be crapping themselves. A zippy melee army like Orruk Warclans will absolutely eat their lunch, creating a reasonably healthy rock-scissors-paper again in the meta.

I mean, as healthy as a game with such garish imbalances can be. I love AoS, but it and 40k remain terrible examples of both internal and external book balance.

Hmm. Rock Paper Scissors should exist on the unit level, not for entire battletomes really...

Its fine for tournaments maybe, but if you as a more casual player that can't afford whole new armies have an army that is a paper to your regular opponent's scissors the game is no fun.

I like what the army is doing, however I fear it might be a bit too much of prancing and not enough staying/hitting power.

 Stux wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
It really is only magic armies that will be crapping themselves. A zippy melee army like Orruk Warclans will absolutely eat their lunch, creating a reasonably healthy rock-scissors-paper again in the meta.

I mean, as healthy as a game with such garish imbalances can be. I love AoS, but it and 40k remain terrible examples of both internal and external book balance.

Hmm. Rock Paper Scissors should exist on the unit level, not for entire battletomes really...

Its fine for tournaments maybe, but if you as a more casual player that can't afford whole new armies have an army that is a paper to your regular opponent's scissors the game is no fun.

Agree 100%. Its just another mechanism to encourage you to buy new armies to keep up with your group.

Worth mentioning that the "these points were last updated in..." blurb says April 2020, so we know where we're at in the schedule for releases. Just wrapped up April.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Worth mentioning that the "these points were last updated in..." blurb says April 2020, so we know where we're at in the schedule for releases. Just wrapped up April.

Eeerrrr.... Ogor where released around november 2019. What are the chances they get point adjustments in the the generals handbook?

 Niiai wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Worth mentioning that the "these points were last updated in..." blurb says April 2020, so we know where we're at in the schedule for releases. Just wrapped up April.

Eeerrrr.... Ogor where released around november 2019. What are the chances they get point adjustments in the the generals handbook?

Pretty good.

They released a lot of digital FAQS for several armies last year with Points adjustments that came after the print date.

I want to say that they said they are doing the point separate from the printed books in the future but I don't exactly remember.

 auticus wrote:

 Stux wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
It really is only magic armies that will be crapping themselves. A zippy melee army like Orruk Warclans will absolutely eat their lunch, creating a reasonably healthy rock-scissors-paper again in the meta.

I mean, as healthy as a game with such garish imbalances can be. I love AoS, but it and 40k remain terrible examples of both internal and external book balance.

Hmm. Rock Paper Scissors should exist on the unit level, not for entire battletomes really...

Its fine for tournaments maybe, but if you as a more casual player that can't afford whole new armies have an army that is a paper to your regular opponent's scissors the game is no fun.

Agree 100%. Its just another mechanism to encourage you to buy new armies to keep up with your group.

Well if you introduce a new army with only a handfull of units, it is not suprising that there are whole armies as a hard counter to them. I think that all of this will change quite a bit, when all the smaller armies have more units to chose from.

I'm not so sure Orruks and Ogors will have an easy time of it. Orruks do not like their support characters getting sniped, and Ogors do not like hit penalties.

Personally gonna wait for any FAQs before declaring the Sentinels as the ultimate character killers.

What FAQ would you expect to nerf them, exactly? This is like in the other thread where you said they would not be good at sniping but just threw out ever-changing invalid reasons when pressed on it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
What FAQ would you expect to nerf them, exactly?

An FAQ stating whether the Scryhawk Lantern allows for you to ignore the standard character targeting rules. Never said it's going to be a "nerf", but I guess them clarifying it would be?

This is like in the other thread where you said they would not be good at sniping but just threw out ever-changing invalid reasons when pressed on it.

Honestly? It's because I've tried to avoid getting engaged in debates over opinions as much.

I said that I wasn't worried about them being a power unit, because the Wizard status is tied to unit size and the unit Champion and that the Champion is also what grants them the Scryhawk Lantern ability.

After reading the book? I'm still not super worried about them, especially in light of the requirement that the Scryhawk Lantern use the Lofted profile for firing. So even if they opt to declare that Scryhawk Lantern allows for you to ignore character targeting rules?

You're hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+ with no Rend.
You add in Heightened Senses(+1 to hit rolls for attacks made until the end of that Phase), you're hitting on 3s instead of 4s and you've consumed an Aetherquartz Reserve.
Add in Lambent Light? You're adding another Wizard--because you won't miss out on casting Power of Hysh, right?--into the mix for that reroll hit rolls for attacks made with missile weapons against that target.

You are also doing MW's on 5+ with rr's to hit. 11 MW's average. Hitting on 4+ and wounding on 4+ isn't much of a worry there. Frankly you could hit on 5+ and doesn't matter really. Character falls down on those MW's. Not many characters survive 11 MW's.

Well that does fall in line with their design ethos of faster games and deadlier abilities.

tneva82 wrote:
You are also doing MW's on 5+ with rr's to hit. 11 MW's average. Hitting on 4+ and wounding on 4+ isn't much of a worry there. Frankly you could hit on 5+ and doesn't matter really. Character falls down on those MW's. Not many characters survive 11 MW's.

Sunmetal Weapons is on an unmodified hit roll of a 6.
Getting to the 5+(which is still requiring unmodified hit rolls of 5s or 6s, mind) requires the High Sentinel to cast Power of Hysh, which means the High Sentinel is not casting Lambent Light for the rerolls...which means there's another Mage casting it.

And the bit that I'm thinking of right now is that we need to wait and see whether Scryhawk Lantern is intended to let you ignore rules that affect targeting(like Deepkin and character targeting shenanigans) or if it's just Line of Sight.

Being at -1 to hit from look out sir isn't going to matter much since it is the MWs you are gunning for anyways. This is not 40k where look out sir flat-out prevents shooting. As for lambent light, the whole dam army is filled with wizards! The only question is which target it will be cast on, not if there will be a wizard to cast it. And even without it, a unit of 20 sentinels will have no problem sniping a 5-wound character every turn provided they get their sunmetal buff off. Which they will be the vast majority of the time thanks to twinstones and aetherquartz.


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 auticus wrote:
Well that does fall in line with their design ethos of faster games and deadlier abilities.

It is not the deadliness--we are looking at a unit that does 6.6 MWs from shooting if it gets its buff spell off (the buff spell is extremely reliable, but that is due to a different problem option) for a 280 point unit that isn't particularly horrible. It is that they can do it with 30" range, no line of sight.

Casting spells seems really easy for Lumineth, especially if you take Zaitrec subfaction. The wording on the translated leak is a little unclear. NinthMusketeer, could you confirm how the Zairtec ability for the first spell cast getting +1 to the result, is it once for the hero phase, or once for each wizard?

"Add 1 to the first casting, dispelling, or unbinding roll you make for each friendly Zaitrec Wizard in each hero phase."

In effect it is a blanket +1 to cast/unbind, only failing to apply for the second and subsequent casts for wizards doing multiple in the same phase (of which there are currently few).

But the twinstone endless spell for 30 points works like this:
-Deploy it with a score of "1"
-Each time a unit within 12" (not wholly within) successfully casts and it is not unbound, increase the score by 1.
-Each time a Lumineth wizard within 12" wants to cast it can draw upon the twinstones to add the score to their casting roll. Then the score resets to 1.

This means that the twinstones, for 30 points, provide a 12" bubble of at minimum +1 to cast. But due to the wording, if unit A uses the stones to cast and gets it off the score is reset to 1... THEN added to for the successful spell. So unit B can then draw upon the stones for +2 to cast, after which the stones will reset to 1 then bump to 2 again.

So really the twinstones, for 30 points, are providing a 12" of +2 to cast, sometimes more sometimes less. Zaitrec is rendered somewhat redundant.

 Kanluwen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You are also doing MW's on 5+ with rr's to hit. 11 MW's average. Hitting on 4+ and wounding on 4+ isn't much of a worry there. Frankly you could hit on 5+ and doesn't matter really. Character falls down on those MW's. Not many characters survive 11 MW's.

Sunmetal Weapons is on an unmodified hit roll of a 6.
Getting to the 5+(which is still requiring unmodified hit rolls of 5s or 6s, mind) requires the High Sentinel to cast Power of Hysh, which means the High Sentinel is not casting Lambent Light for the rerolls...which means there's another Mage casting it.

And the bit that I'm thinking of right now is that we need to wait and see whether Scryhawk Lantern is intended to let you ignore rules that affect targeting(like Deepkin and character targeting shenanigans) or if it's just Line of Sight.

Ooo need another mage. I'm sure mages are rare in elf army. No second mage around there. None at all.

And what targeting rules you need to ignore? You can shoot characters right? You just suffer -1 to hit. Bohoo. Elf player isn't going to weep over 4's missing. It's the MW's you are looking for.

Hell even with 6 for MW's we are talking about 5.5555 MW's. Or just have another mage nearby and just vaporize most of characters out there.