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Made in gb
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





North-East UK

Hi all so I wanted to post this up just to gauge interest and a bit of clarifications before I begin this hobby journey.

I'm not a hater of 9th ed. I enjoy it as much as any other user. Why I'm 'updating' this edition is mainly for nostalgic reasons. The model range is a lot better than before and I just feel there is just so much more that could have been with this edition. Now that older editions are essentially sandbox, I'm making this edition to be the best it can be as though it was made in current times. Below are the attachments of just the structure and plan going forward with this project. Just bear in mind I am a hobbyist in all parts of the game so making this edition will be a very, very slow endeavour.

Right now, I will post up a link to a drive that all should be able to view, however this will be empty for a long time as I have to make the units then make the pages look pretty.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1W3rNlOpJq_aWSzyXmWRYdt9zyCUZGWM9?usp=sharing






Black Templars: WIP
Night Lords (30/40k): WIP
Red Corsairs: WIP
Iron Warriors: WIP
Orks: 6000pts
Batman Miniatures Game: Mr.Freeze, Joker
Ever wanted a better 5th ed. 40k? Take a look at 5th ed. Reforged! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/794253.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




So you're basically retooling old 'dexes and adding new ones but keeping the 5th edition rules unchanged? Sounds cool. I was pretty burned out on 5th by the time 6th came out and don't really want to return to that particular rule set, but I am curious to see what your changes/additions end up looking like.

Godspeed to you.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





You may find some use for my old 5e skirmish-hammer notes -

Marine books(all) - there were sweeping points adjustments from 4th and through 5th. Primarily these relate to heavy weapon costs - you will probably want to pick a single points level (such as the 5e marine costs) and apply them to chaos, wolves, templars, DA and BA. 5e also introduced a few freebies for the later marine books (i.e. wolf special weapons, blood angel transport discount) that could do with rolling back.
It's not always going to be matching to the marine dex as some later changes (i.e. +5 points for a thunderhammer/stormshield terminator) were sensible.

Templars / Dark Angels - For the most part are probably easier to work backwards from the marine dex on shared units and wargear. For Dark Angels you can pretty much copy the codex 1:1 with only changes for the characters, deathwing, and ravenwing. Templars are more significantly different in terms of subtle wargear differences and squad characters, but it's the vows and (4e vintage) veteran skills that defined their playstyle.

Chapter / Legion traits - Didn't exist for anyone in 5th edition outside of a few named characters (which also extended to broad army traits granted by named characters from a few other factions). While I don't think it will be a problem you'll want to be wary of the older edition situation of all devastators with tank hunters, all melta squads with infiltrate, all assault marines with furious charge, and so on and it creates problems when setting the points costs of shared weapons.

Tau - are a tricky one in 5th. Work to do on crisis suit weapon costs. They suffer as other factions up-gun and up-speed throughout the edition. Some solid forgeworld choices but the codex has a serious case of 'always take unit X over unit Y'

Craftworld Eldar - Another case of obviously better units. Like a lot of earlier stuff they look worse as the edition power creeps up. The Dark Eldar should give a solid point to balance against, but keep in mind that the eldar had some very good stuff to go with their not at all good stuff. Forgeworld offered some extra scope (neware the warp hunter)

Sisters of Battle - A book of two parts. The inquisition/ecclesiarchy units were butchered when they were shoehorned into a single 'henchman' unit in codex GK, but with that having been said they were mostly stronger as a result (WD codex jacobus leading crusaders and death cultists were a staple of late 5e sisters).
While Cruddace phoned in the 5e rules something fierce it wasn't all bad - dominions got their scouting, repentia replaced their armour with FnP (original sisters were released pre-scout/fnp rules), Celestine wasn't a hinderance to the army and repentia were arguably less of a joke unit. At the other end of the scale though the core of the faction was gutted through and through with the loss of faith and wargear - battle sisters were a troops tax, celestians useless, the canoness ineffectual and the immolator was just a very expensive razorback.
Somewhere in between the two books is a better faction, of the two the 3rd edition book was better in 5th edition that the 5e book despite by that point blood angels being able to field troops cheaper than sisters.

Tyranids - I was looking to change instant death to overkill (2 wounds), grant full init on charge to units with move through cover, and be a bit less liberal with how tank shocks could be placed and troops scoring from vehicles before re-assessing the 5e nids. They have unit cost issues but but core rule changes were the first stop for them. As with many factions the cheaper heavy weapons and more tanks/artillery through the edition put a strain on them, and tweaks to vehicle damage rules would help them against transports.

Necrons - Were so powerful that the local cron player got significantly worse at the game after playing them. Grab a croupier stick and push them up the board, the vulnerabilities of 3e WBB rolls to AP1, power weapons, and instant death all gone leaving it to the whim of the dice. My first game with the crons (to help a player warm of for a tournament) saw be win by essentially just shooting whatever I had at whatever was infront of me while moving forward, and solar pulses had to be banned from apoc games.
In terms of balancing strength across the edition the points drops of the +1 marine books and the overkill of the guard are comparatively easy to reign in as you can compare the units, weapons, and costs directly to a 'target' books like 5e marines and dark eldar. Crons however are their own thing.

GK - Ludicrous in their power, but also as shallow as a childs paddling pool without it. Another one that is tricky to deal with as bringing them down to a sensible level just makes them a poor mans marines, my preference was to ignore them and work on an improved witch/daemonhunters book (as the two were effectively interchangable in early 5th) but your mileage may vary.
   
Made in gb
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





North-East UK

Wyldhunt wrote:So you're basically retooling old 'dexes and adding new ones but keeping the 5th edition rules unchanged? Sounds cool. I was pretty burned out on 5th by the time 6th came out and don't really want to return to that particular rule set, but I am curious to see what your changes/additions end up looking like.

Godspeed to you.


Thanks! I get you. As a CSM player of those days I was really, really burnt out fighting GK's and such, so I get the issue.

A.T. wrote:You may find some use for my old 5e skirmish-hammer notes -

Marine books(all) - there were sweeping points adjustments from 4th and through 5th. Primarily these relate to heavy weapon costs - you will probably want to pick a single points level (such as the 5e marine costs) and apply them to chaos, wolves, templars, DA and BA. 5e also introduced a few freebies for the later marine books (i.e. wolf special weapons, blood angel transport discount) that could do with rolling back.
It's not always going to be matching to the marine dex as some later changes (i.e. +5 points for a thunderhammer/stormshield terminator) were sensible.


Yeah, I hear you! points are going to be interesting but I think with all the new units available it will turn out really good.

Templars / Dark Angels - For the most part are probably easier to work backwards from the marine dex on shared units and wargear. For Dark Angels you can pretty much copy the codex 1:1 with only changes for the characters, deathwing, and ravenwing. Templars are more significantly different in terms of subtle wargear differences and squad characters, but it's the vows and (4e vintage) veteran skills that defined their playstyle.


Yeah, I was thinking on overhauling these, BT just need a good big update and DA need their new units with their SC to really define their playstyle.

Chapter / Legion traits - Didn't exist for anyone in 5th edition outside of a few named characters (which also extended to broad army traits granted by named characters from a few other factions). While I don't think it will be a problem you'll want to be wary of the older edition situation of all devastators with tank hunters, all melta squads with infiltrate, all assault marines with furious charge, and so on and it creates problems when setting the points costs of shared weapons.


Yeah, I've been sitting on this one tbh. I think I will add more characters from each Legion (Like Zao Sahaal, Warsmith Honsou, etc) to really define the Legions and grant the Legion trait, no different to the Space Marines and their Chapter Tactics. I think my only issue here to think of at least one character for each Legion that doesn't already have a character, like the Alpha Legion?

Tau - are a tricky one in 5th. Work to do on crisis suit weapon costs. They suffer as other factions up-gun and up-speed throughout the edition. Some solid forgeworld choices but the codex has a serious case of 'always take unit X over unit Y'


Yeah, I totally get that. My idea was to overhaul them to be play in a bit more playstyle rather than just 'gunlines' all the time. I'm not saying we give them a radical change (like make them a rip n' tear CC army) but more give them multiple themes back similar to how DA have Deathwing and Ravenwing, so Tau have characters that can promote Fish or Fury, Characters like Farsight and Crisis Suits, Shadowsun and an elite stealth team, etc.

Craftworld Eldar - Another case of obviously better units. Like a lot of earlier stuff they look worse as the edition power creeps up. The Dark Eldar should give a solid point to balance against, but keep in mind that the eldar had some very good stuff to go with their not at all good stuff. Forgeworld offered some extra scope (neware the warp hunter)


I get you! Eldar just suffered in this edition so I think I will reinforce their psychic might and obviously make a character for every craftworld that doesn't have an existing character already. Trouble is that I'm unsure what characters to bring into the edition since my Eldar knowledge is limited.

Sisters of Battle - A book of two parts. The inquisition/ecclesiarchy units were butchered when they were shoehorned into a single 'henchman' unit in codex GK, but with that having been said they were mostly stronger as a result (WD codex jacobus leading crusaders and death cultists were a staple of late 5e sisters).
While Cruddace phoned in the 5e rules something fierce it wasn't all bad - dominions got their scouting, repentia replaced their armour with FnP (original sisters were released pre-scout/fnp rules), Celestine wasn't a hinderance to the army and repentia were arguably less of a joke unit. At the other end of the scale though the core of the faction was gutted through and through with the loss of faith and wargear - battle sisters were a troops tax, celestians useless, the canoness ineffectual and the immolator was just a very expensive razorback.
Somewhere in between the two books is a better faction, of the two the 3rd edition book was better in 5th edition that the 5e book despite by that point blood angels being able to field troops cheaper than sisters.


I totally get this! My thoughts were just to totally reboot the codex. I think what I'm planning to look at is look at the previous edition codex and also ask on Dakka what personally made each codex they played from 5th backwards, so much fun or the themes that made them fun? For example I know Acts of faith made SoB fun for many players and then focus on things like that, etc.

Tyranids - I was looking to change instant death to overkill (2 wounds), grant full init on charge to units with move through cover, and be a bit less liberal with how tank shocks could be placed and troops scoring from vehicles before re-assessing the 5e nids. They have unit cost issues but but core rule changes were the first stop for them. As with many factions the cheaper heavy weapons and more tanks/artillery through the edition put a strain on them, and tweaks to vehicle damage rules would help them against transports.


Tyranids were always a mixed bag with me. I always found them a hard game to play against but I feel that may have been because I was around competent players in my area so I never felt the burn of the issues with this codex. if folks told me what the issues were then I would happily look deeper with the Codex.

Necrons - Were so powerful that the local cron player got significantly worse at the game after playing them. Grab a croupier stick and push them up the board, the vulnerabilities of 3e WBB rolls to AP1, power weapons, and instant death all gone leaving it to the whim of the dice. My first game with the crons (to help a player warm of for a tournament) saw be win by essentially just shooting whatever I had at whatever was infront of me while moving forward, and solar pulses had to be banned from apoc games.
In terms of balancing strength across the edition the points drops of the +1 marine books and the overkill of the guard are comparatively easy to reign in as you can compare the units, weapons, and costs directly to a 'target' books like 5e marines and dark eldar. Crons however are their own thing.

GK - Ludicrous in their power, but also as shallow as a childs paddling pool without it. Another one that is tricky to deal with as bringing them down to a sensible level just makes them a poor mans marines, my preference was to ignore them and work on an improved witch/daemonhunters book (as the two were effectively interchangeable in early 5th) but your mileage may vary.


Ah, yes. I remember GK as a CSM player... Yeah, I think we both know the level of power of GK back then. Personally I'm ok with the power level atm, only because my aim is to balance all codex's between the SM book to the GK book in terms of power. With the addition of new units and rules I feel we can balance these boys out to be on par with the rest of the edition which is why these boys will probably be one of the last codex's I'll be looking at. Funnily enough one of my main opponents was Necrons at the time and I felt the power of the book, but I was never really taken back by the book. To me it felt no different than the SM book in terms of how powerful they were. A great book but dealable. My ONLY gripe with that book was Mindshackle Scarabs. That can go die in a fire, especially when it turned even Abaddon into the most special kid in the class on a regular basis, but it might not be as bad when updating the rest of the edition.


To everyone reading, just asking for a little help but if someone could catalogue all the new GW units that aren't in the 5th ed. codex's and all (whether they had rules or not) FW units separately, then that would help me immensely with just getting on with the edition next year. Cheers to any help!

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/12/01 02:06:09


Black Templars: WIP
Night Lords (30/40k): WIP
Red Corsairs: WIP
Iron Warriors: WIP
Orks: 6000pts
Batman Miniatures Game: Mr.Freeze, Joker
Ever wanted a better 5th ed. 40k? Take a look at 5th ed. Reforged! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/794253.page 
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

Ok from what I remember about Tyranids in 5th:

- Extremely vulnerable to Instant death.
- Lack of reliable anti-tank shooting.
- Lack of defensive options against low AP weapons.
- Over-costed monsters (aside of the Tervigon).
- Lack of assault grenades.
- Lack of upgrades.
- Punishing Instinctive Behavior.
- Ineffective Shadow in the Warp.
- Monsters capped at T6.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/12/01 02:26:23


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 The Warp Forge wrote:
...To everyone reading, just asking for a little help but if someone could catalogue all the new GW units that aren't in the 5th ed. codex's and all (whether they had rules or not) FW units separately, then that would help me immensely with just getting on with the edition next year. Cheers to any help! ...


Everything? I'll do what I can but I may miss things.

SM: All the flyers other than the Stormraven (which was GK/BA only in 5th), Centurions. Stalker/Hunter. Primaris models, obviously. Most of the Space Wolves' wolfwolfwolf stuff was around in 5th, but I think the planes were 7th. BA didn't get any new minis post-5th. DA got a big expansion with the new Deathwing/Ravenwing in 6th, DW/RW Knights, lots of the command-squad stuff, the planes, and the big Land Speeder are from then.

Guard: MT models were almost just a Stormtrooper resculpt in 5th, but the Taurox was new, as were Bullgryn.

AdMech, Custodians, Sisters of Silence, Knights: Whole army.

Inquisition: They got deleted in 5th. I've got a giant 5e-era fandex sitting around that patched/updated the 3e Inquisition content and added Deathwatch that I like better than anything GW's done with the Inquisition since. GK have had no new models since 5th, Sisters' range overhaul is all resculpts and named characters except for the sword/pistol Seraphim option, Assassins have had resculpts.

Chaos: Almost the whole Daemons range is 5e-vintage or resculpts. Named characters and the Slaaneshi harp-Herald are it, I think. CSM have gotten every daemon engine, the greater possessed, slightly expanded Thousand Sons, and largely new Death Guard stuff. Chaos Knights are all new. Khorne Blood Slaughterer was in 6e Apocalypse.

Craftworld Eldar: Planes came from 6th, as did the new Wraithguard kit with its alternate weapon options. Jetbikes existed before but the kit with the option for scatter lasers on everyone was new in 7th and was one of the worst mistakes of that edition, be sure to keep heavy weapons at one per three. Harlequins got spun out into their own Codex in 7th.

Dark Eldar: Voidraven had rules and no model in 5th, I don't think they've gotten anything else new since.

GSC: Whole range is new.

Necrons: 9th releases only. I can't remember the whole list off the top of my head, but they got nothing in 6th-8th.

Orks: Speed Freeks buggies, new Meganobz kit, new Mek Gunz kit.

Tau: Ghostkeel. Razorshark/Sun Shark. New Commander, Broadside, Pathfinder, and Warriors/Breachers kit with extended weapon options. Stormsurge.

Tyranids: I think everything they've gotten since 5th was resculpts.

If you want an exhaustive list of all Forge World stuff that'll take a while. A summary:

30k SM/CSM: Alternate loadouts for the LR/Predator/Vindicator, new tank chassis (Sabre, Fellblade, Arquitor, Sicaran, Spartan, Mastodon), Fire Raptor/Storm Eagle, Leviathan/Contemptor/Deredeo Dreadnaughts, Rapiers, Legion artillery, Legion-specific units for all eighteen Legions.

Other SM: Astraeus, named characters and Chapter rules for a bunch of Chapters in the Badab War books.

AdMech: Secutarii, Adescularii, four sorts of Battle-Automata, three tank chassis, Ordinatus, Thallax/Ursarax, Myrmidons, Scyllax, Termite drill.

Guard: Macharius chassis, Malcador chassis, Minotaur, crewed artillery, Carnodon, engineering vehicles, Vulture, Lightning, Avenger, Thunderbolt, Marauder.

Inquisition: Repressor, LR/Razorback with psycannons.

Daemons: "Daemon Lords" (really big greater daemons).

CSM: Kytan, Brass Scorpion, Hell Talon, Hell Blade, Decimator, Blood Slaughterer, Blight Drone

Eldar: Revenant, Phantom, Skathach, Scorpion, Lynx, Cobra, Hornet, Wasp, Firestorm, Warp Hunter, Wraithseer, Shadow Spectres, Nightwing, Phoenix. Properly-scaled Avatar. DE: Tantalus, Reaper.

Necrons: Pylons, Tesseract Ark, Seraptek, Night Shroud, Tomb Stalker, Acanthrites.

Orks: Squiggoth, Big Squiggoth, Grot Tanks, Mega Dread, alternate Stompa parts, big tanks, Chinork.

Tau: Manta, Tiger Shark, Barracuda, Riptide variants, Tau'nar, XV9 suits, Remora, Tetra, Knarloc Riders, Great Knarloc, alternate Hammerhead turrets, sentry drone turrets.

Tyranids: Malanthrope, alternate Carnifex parts, better Rippers, flying Rippers, Heirophant, Heirodule, Harridan, Dimachaeron, giant spore mines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 04:06:42


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Tyranids: I think everything they've gotten since 5th was resculpts.

They have gotten new units: Neurothrope, Maleceptor, Toxicrene, Exocrine, Haruspex, Hive Crone, Tyrannocyte, Mucolid Spores and Sporocyst. The Broodlord also returned to being a separate unit like in 4th.

For options, Carnifexes and Genestealers regained the upgrades that had model support, also specialized Carnifex datasheets for Scream-killer and Thornback variants. Hive Guard got shockcannons and Tyrant Guard got crushing claws and bonesword & lashwhip.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2020/12/01 04:26:02


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Tyran wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:

Tyranids: I think everything they've gotten since 5th was resculpts.

They have gotten new units.

Neurothrope, Maleceptor, Toxicrene, Exocrine, Haruspexe, Hive Crone, Tyrannocyte and Sporocyst.

Hive Guard also got shockcannons and Tyrant Guard got crushing claws and bonesword & lashwhip. The Broodlord also returned to being a separate unit like in 4th.


Neurothrope was initially a zoanthrope squad leader in the zoanthrope resculpt box. Tyrannocyte is a Mieotic Spore, which had rules but no model in 5th. I've been skipping "fortifications" generally given how many of them have been pointless since release and how infrequently they ever appear on the table. Harpy had rules in the 5e book, but since there's no Haruspex that might have been a rules-no model situation there. Exocrine/Toxicrene definitely later, though, thanks for the catch.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Neurothrope was initially a zoanthrope squad leader in the zoanthrope resculpt box.


Which was a 7th edition release.


Tyrannocyte is a Mieotic Spore, which had rules but no model in 5th.


While they fulfill the same role, being a drop pod, the Tyrannocite has remarkable differences like being capable of movement and having guns.

Harpy had rules in the 5e book

The Harpy yes, but the Hive Crone was a 6th edition addition.


, but since there's no Haruspex that might have been a rules-no model situation there.

The Haruspex was introduced in 6th as it shares kit with the Exocrine.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/01 04:47:41


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 The Warp Forge wrote:

I get you! Eldar just suffered in this edition so I think I will reinforce their psychic might and obviously make a character for every craftworld that doesn't have an existing character already. Trouble is that I'm unsure what characters to bring into the edition since my Eldar knowledge is limited.


Good news! There were actually a couple of named craftworld characters back in 3rd edition that didn't survive into the 4th edition codex.

Nuadu Fireheart of Saim-Hann is an "autarch." Sort of. Technically, his job is to lead the wild riders (a subculture unique to Saim-Hann that seems to mostly involve shirking grown up responsibilities to go on jetbike-related adventures) specifically. His gimmick is that he rides on the back of a modified vyper and uses it as a sort of high-speed chariot. My inclination would be to make him a beefier laser lance autarch with an AV and the ability to join vyper squads with the independent character rules. Maybe give him a special rule that makes vypers more appealing or something. Did vypers have JSJ in 5th edition?

Iyanden already has prince Yriel, but it also has Iyanaa Arienel, the named spirit seer character. Both of these characters have ties to the ynnari these days (especially the latter), but still. She's basically just a super duper spirit seer with a fancy ancestral spear. She's besties with a fire dragon exarch walking around in a wraith lord body (though canonically he's back in infantry-sized armor these days iirc.)

Alaitoc already has Illic Nightspear. Ulthwe has Eldrad. I think Biel-Tan is the only one of the main 5 to have never had a named character with tabletop rules?
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

Hi and welcome to the 5th edition group

Rake has already made an appearance i see

He has his "old hammer" project

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page


and Mezmorki has his

pro-hammer project

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791731.page


And i myself run a topic on all old editions of the game but my focus is also on a slightly modified version of 5th we play at the FLGS where we do not make up any of our own rules just import a few superior rules from other compatible editions into 5th.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/789567.page


You might notice that much of what we all like about 5th and how to improve upon it seems very similar, something GW seems to have missed the mark on time after time.

But then again we aren't a for profit model company trying to push merch. we just want to play in the 40K universe with our toy soldiers and want ti to feel like it is that universe.



 Tyran wrote:
Ok from what I remember about Tyranids in 5th:

- Extremely vulnerable to Instant death.
- Lack of reliable anti-tank shooting.
- Lack of defensive options against low AP weapons.
- Over-costed monsters (aside of the Tervigon).
- Lack of assault grenades.
- Lack of upgrades.
- Punishing Instinctive Behavior.
- Ineffective Shadow in the Warp.
- Monsters capped at T6.




I would remind you that almost all of those problems are solved by a simple solution-the 4th ed tyranid codex.

It was used for half of 5th ed and is fully compatible. newer units (trygons, drop pods hive guard etc..) are easy enough to put back into the old rules (5th ed points costs and stat line-4th ed cost and effects for biomorphs). your zoanathropes are not nearly as durable but everything else becomes better.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 07:03:05




GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 The Warp Forge wrote:
A.T. wrote:You may find some use for my old 5e skirmish-hammer notes -

Marine books(all) - there were sweeping points adjustments from 4th and through 5th. Primarily these relate to heavy weapon costs - you will probably want to pick a single points level (such as the 5e marine costs) and apply them to chaos, wolves, templars, DA and BA. 5e also introduced a few freebies for the later marine books (i.e. wolf special weapons, blood angel transport discount) that could do with rolling back.
It's not always going to be matching to the marine dex as some later changes (i.e. +5 points for a thunderhammer/stormshield terminator) were sensible.


Yeah, I hear you! points are going to be interesting but I think with all the new units available it will turn out really good.


My personal preference is to drop the separate Codexes for SW/BA/DA and do one SM book with appendixes detailing different Chapters' unique stuff, like the 30k book or the 3e book with the Index Astartes supplements. It makes it much easier to handle the overlapping units/options, lets you expand content for the other six First Founding Chapters without adding more Codexes, and spreads the narrative focus more evenly.

Chapter / Legion traits - Didn't exist for anyone in 5th edition outside of a few named characters (which also extended to broad army traits granted by named characters from a few other factions). While I don't think it will be a problem you'll want to be wary of the older edition situation of all devastators with tank hunters, all melta squads with infiltrate, all assault marines with furious charge, and so on and it creates problems when setting the points costs of shared weapons.


Yeah, I've been sitting on this one tbh. I think I will add more characters from each Legion (Like Zao Sahaal, Warsmith Honsou, etc) to really define the Legions and grant the Legion trait, no different to the Space Marines and their Chapter Tactics. I think my only issue here to think of at least one character for each Legion that doesn't already have a character, like the Alpha Legion?


30k is a great resource for considering how to write named characters/unique units for Chapters/Legions that don't have 40k content; they've given all eighteen Legions a lot of stuff to play with.

Tau - are a tricky one in 5th. Work to do on crisis suit weapon costs. They suffer as other factions up-gun and up-speed throughout the edition. Some solid forgeworld choices but the codex has a serious case of 'always take unit X over unit Y'


Yeah, I totally get that. My idea was to overhaul them to be play in a bit more playstyle rather than just 'gunlines' all the time. I'm not saying we give them a radical change (like make them a rip n' tear CC army) but more give them multiple themes back similar to how DA have Deathwing and Ravenwing, so Tau have characters that can promote Fish or Fury, Characters like Farsight and Crisis Suits, Shadowsun and an elite stealth team, etc.


My own Tau fix was to put melee profiles on the Crisis/Stealthsuits weapons after the pattern of the Fusion Blades and the DoW Tau commander. It doesn't make them a rip-tearing melee army, but it gives the lighter suits a role distinct from the big suits as perimeter defense and objective clearing rather than just making them compete for the role of most efficient leafblower unit.

Craftworld Eldar - Another case of obviously better units. Like a lot of earlier stuff they look worse as the edition power creeps up. The Dark Eldar should give a solid point to balance against, but keep in mind that the eldar had some very good stuff to go with their not at all good stuff. Forgeworld offered some extra scope (neware the warp hunter)


I get you! Eldar just suffered in this edition so I think I will reinforce their psychic might and obviously make a character for every craftworld that doesn't have an existing character already. Trouble is that I'm unsure what characters to bring into the edition since my Eldar knowledge is limited.


You'll also want to do something about holofields if you're starting from the 4e book; they were good in 4th but with the vehicle durability boosts from 5th the holofield Falcon was nigh-unkillable.

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 Tyran wrote:
Ok from what I remember about Tyranids in 5th:

- Extremely vulnerable to Instant death.
- Lack of reliable anti-tank shooting.
- Lack of defensive options against low AP weapons.
- Over-costed monsters (aside of the Tervigon).
- Lack of assault grenades.
- Lack of upgrades.
- Punishing Instinctive Behavior.
- Ineffective Shadow in the Warp.
- Monsters capped at T6.



All of that is true. I can also add their monsters sucked in melee. When 6th edition came with smash attack they became much more playable until all the flyer models came.

Everything about nids was bad in 5th besides the tervigon. And what little was not inherently bad was over costed by about 40 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The fundamental problem with 5th was two fold.

Vehicles essentially have a vehicle save, because of the d6 damage table. Where they only died on a 5 and 6, often on a d6 - 1. That turned 5th edition deployment zones into parking lots.

The missions had very little variance. Kill points was shoot each other. One of the two objective once turned into defend your own. Very repetetive.

Cover rules where great though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 10:39:29


I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

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 The Warp Forge wrote:
Yeah, I hear you! points are going to be interesting but I think with all the new units available it will turn out really good
Interesting how many oldhammer projects start at the same point and head in entirely different directions - my old skirmish 5e for instance was limited to ~25-26 core units per faction, the other oldhammers on the board also take entirely different approaches in terms of rules, rewrites, unit availability, etc.
No right or wrong direction IMO, as long as all of the factions get a fair shake.

I think my only issue here to think of at least one character for each Legion that doesn't already have a character, like the Alpha Legion?
4e chosen had infiltrate. Add cultists are that's pretty much 3.5 alpha legion - lack of character was one of their defining characteristics :p
In my old dex I had been playing around with making chosen the core troops choice with a couple of non-combat options on their veteran skill (i.e. infiltrate, stealth&night vision, fearless). Players could match a skill and mark to their chosen legion/warband, but paid the price in being all veterans all of the time.

Sisters of Battle - I'm planning to look at is look at the previous edition codex and also ask on Dakka what personally made each codex they played from 5th backwards, so much fun or the themes that made them fun?
Working backwards - the 5e WD codex gave the army some playstyle options with celestine as a harrasment unit, early turn options with dominions, and a little of the power of the GK codex in the form of a few of their henchmen. The core units however were mostly poor, the troops were a tax, and the faith didn't scale with army size (500 pt skirmish? d6 faith. 40000pt apoc? d6 faith). Common to see lists built around expectation of faith points to make the units viable - one retributor squad, two dominions, and one seraphim unit were about as much as the army could sustain.
3e Witch Hunters could burn faith to bolster a unit anywhere on the board but they were sensitive to unit sizing and positioning - if you were to test-play them against most 5e books you'd probably get wrecked, but actually they were pretty good at mech lists until you get to the business end of 5e codex creep. They are very clearly priced as a 3e book though with high cost heavy weapons, taxes on specialist units, jump packs, and grenades, old vehicle costs(until errataed), and they featured some of the worst units in the game this side of the tau space pope.
3e Chapter Approved/Citadel Journal were a prototype for the WH sisters. Not particularly significant other than the last appearance of the ecclesiarchy and named character rules.
3e Rulebook Sisters were mostly garbage - BS3, no faith, the exorcist was a rhino with a missile launcher.
--the underlying premise of old sisters was that you'd get three sisters for every two marines, but low toughness and combat ability means that on paper marines would trade evenly in shooting and favourably in melee, offset by the sisters greater density of special weapons, greater numbers bullet sponges, and ability to use faith to switch the match-up around for a phase here and there.

Tyranids were always a mixed bag with me. I always found them a hard game to play against but I feel that may have been because I was around competent players in my area so I never felt the burn of the issues with this codex. if folks told me what the issues were then I would happily look deeper with the Codex.
Their large models were very vulnerable for their cost - the (very)common missile launcher was 2+ to wound with no saves and 5e was an edition of greatly lowering heavy weapons costs (as well as things like the Space Wolves 'tyranid model deletion power' jaws of the world wolf, or CSM just pushing the important models back with lash and blast lists).
The small nids by comparison could not easily get past vehicles - wall them off, tank shock and flame them, or just tank shock onto an objective straight through the horde with no repercussions. Even those that made it into range were typically fighting into cover, so striking last.
Of course it did depend on what faction you were playing against.


Ah, yes. I remember GK as a CSM player... Yeah, I think we both know the level of power of GK back then. Personally I'm ok with the power level atm, only because my aim is to balance all codex's between the SM book to the GK book in terms of power.
In the short term then you'll probably want to plan out how you do this. The GK weren't strong because of unit selection (they barely had any), they were strong because their stuff was just much better for the points.
In terms of new units you'll find that forgeworlds support is extremely lop-sided - subfactions and bands of heroes for some factions, sweet FA for others. There are 24 named marine/tyrant legion characters in the badab war update pdf alone for example, and nine whole books of 30k-era units so far in the horus heresy series. You've got some reading ahead.


Wyldhunt wrote:I think Biel-Tan is the only one of the main 5 to have never had a named character with tabletop rules?
They used to run the avatar and the court of the young king rather than a single lead character.
   
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washington state USA

Vehicles essentially have a vehicle save, because of the d6 damage table. Where they only died on a 5 and 6, often on a d6 - 1. That turned 5th edition deployment zones into parking lots.

The missions had very little variance. Kill points was shoot each other. One of the two objective once turned into defend your own. Very repetetive.


1. Not really a problem as others have noted the availability of AT weapons increased across the board to balance that out. i just did a game of 5th a few weeks back where my brood lord rended a chaos land raider with a single pen 5. the thing is 5th both represented the durability of vehicles and also the fact they can be outright destroyed. 5th requires quite a bit more focus on unit role since some things are specifically designed to hurt specific types of targets.

2. any player who has played for more than 1 edition can think of all sorts of objectives-
3-5 objectives spread across the table. using the 6th ed mysterious objectives. having a single center objective (king of the hill in effect),
having a single center movable objective that can by carried no more than 6" per player turn(move more than 6" and it gets dropped but can also be passed off to other units). having an objective in each table quarter the one opposite of the quarter you start in is worth double points, kill points for quick and dirty games or tie breakers and of course the default warmachine style of fallback win-wipe out your enemy.


In terms of new units you'll find that forgeworlds support is extremely lop-sided - subfactions and bands of heroes for some factions, sweet FA for others. There are 24 named marine/tyrant legion characters in the badab war update pdf alone for example, and nine whole books of 30k-era units so far in the horus heresy series. You've got some reading ahead.


Back in the day aside from marines and guard who got the most FW love the TAU and eldar both got some really fantastic units followed by orks. there were a few gems here and there for other factions like the SOB repressors, but they were few and far between.



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 aphyon wrote:
Not really a problem as others have noted the availability of AT weapons increased across the board to balance that out
Beyond that there are a few areas where the abuse of the old system can be toned down:
- immobile vehicles take +1 damage (clear roadblocks)
- attacker chooses immobile/weapon destroyed (and which weapon to destroy) - no more 4+ stormbolter saves
- units in vehicles don't score and/or final tankshock position cannot be on an enemy model
- models in exploded vehicles are pinned and/or cannot charge (the old dark eldar boarding torpedo trick)
- immobile walkers don't lock a squad in combat (and/or any suitable fall back from unwinnable combat rule)

Just off the top of my head, mainly as I think the game suffers as the quantity of heavy weapons goes up.

-------------

The killpoint objective in 5th was not great.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 12:58:13


 
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

i am not one for creating my own rules, the only mods we used were importing rules GW made from other editions that make 5th a better game. like snap fire and grenade throwing.

- attacker chooses immobile/weapon destroyed (and which weapon to destroy) - no more 4+ stormbolter saves


That already exists. weapon destroyed results are chosen by the attacker.

- units in vehicles don't score and/or final tankshock position cannot be on an enemy model


easily fixed by having everything score, but include troops being OBSEC units, and there has been no edition where two models can occupy the same space.

- models in exploded vehicles are pinned and/or cannot charge (the old dark eldar boarding torpedo trick)


Already existed as well-it's called a pinning check

- immobile walkers don't lock a squad in combat (and/or any suitable fall back from unwinnable combat rule)


don't agree, your adding to many layers to the rules. it slows the game down. something like warmachines free strike when you walk out of close combat is nice in a skirmish setting but not at the level 5th ed 40k is played.


Just off the top of my head, mainly as I think the game suffers as the quantity of heavy weapons goes up.


It really doesn't though because the lethality was much lower in 5th. there were far less shots, less damage output (there were weapons that did multiple wounds but they were very rare) and hard cover saves to counter that.



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I'm also a fan of 5th edition but mostly because of the codexes, not the general rules. I'd love to play 9th edition with revised 5th edition codexes for example.

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 aphyon wrote:
That already exists. weapon destroyed results are chosen by the attacker.
I'm mixing 5th and 6th there. Been a while.

 aphyon wrote:
easily fixed by having everything score, but include troops being OBSEC units, and there has been no edition where two models can occupy the same space.
Tank shock moved everyone else out the way. Standard last turn objective taking - place you tank on top of the objective and tell your opponent to move all his models off it.

 aphyon wrote:
Already existed as well-it's called a pinning check
This actually refers back to a loophole in the rules where DE players could shoot their skimmers at an opposing tank/transport. The resultant S10 hit would frequently wreck the target and and the fragile open-topped skimmer - the DE could then assault without penalty from the crater a it overruled the restictions on disembarking at that speed. I mention it only as it was a first turn charge exploit in the 5e ruleset, several different ways to close it.

don't agree, your adding to many layers to the rules. it slows the game down
It was something you noticed when playing the older books (or factions without free krak grenades). A single sentinel could tie up a unit forever - you couldn't shoot it, couldn't leave combat, and in some cases couldn't even get another unit in there to fight it. It was an uncommon but frustrating problem, albeit more of a pre 5e codex on.

It really doesn't though because the lethality was much lower in 5th. there were far less shots, less damage output (there were weapons that did multiple wounds but they were very rare) and hard cover saves to counter that.
Between the start and end of 5e the cost of heavy weapons carried by space marines dropped by 30-40%. Costs were roughly halved from the start of 4e to the end of 5e (except for dark eldar, who went from having a wall of darklances to something more sensible...)
   
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





North-East UK

Thanks to all replies, all really appreciated.

For a bit more clarity:

I don't plan on making many, if any at all changes to the core rulebook. If I were it would literally be only two additional rules which would be an 'Out of Control' rule for vehicles (like in the visuals of DoW II) and to bring in Warlord Challenges similar to 6th but reworded into 5th, but these changes won't be incorporated until I've had a few codex's done under my belt.

When it comes to the codex's I'm not trying to fully redo all the books, just the ones that were in dire need of them, hence why I'm making supplements for the factions that were already decent. I'm not trying to invalidate all of what folks already own in hand, just add to them so all factions have a better chance.

I feel FW will be the variable that will take this project so long to make. because of the amount of FW items within certain factions. When it comes to the 30k stuff, I plan on making a lot to incorporate but not everything, just due to unit clashes and unit bloat between factions.

There was the mention of Badab War, I'm not really going to touch those lists due to those lists being decent in their own right. IIRC they were created during 5th ed. and so I will leave them be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:


30k is a great resource for considering how to write named characters/unique units for Chapters/Legions that don't have 40k content; they've given all eighteen Legions a lot of stuff to play with.



Yeah, there's a ton but I'm looking at the characters that survived the Heresy. It would look a bit odd if there was a character that just waltzed into 40k when they are meant to be dead...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/01 15:38:55


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 The Warp Forge wrote:
It would look a bit odd if there was a character that just waltzed into 40k when they are meant to be dead...
Two out of the original five sisters of battle/ecclesiarchy characters died in their fluff entry :p

(not counting Celestine or Ephrael)
   
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 aphyon wrote:


 Tyran wrote:
Ok from what I remember about Tyranids in 5th:

- Extremely vulnerable to Instant death.
- Lack of reliable anti-tank shooting.
- Lack of defensive options against low AP weapons.
- Over-costed monsters (aside of the Tervigon).
- Lack of assault grenades.
- Lack of upgrades.
- Punishing Instinctive Behavior.
- Ineffective Shadow in the Warp.
- Monsters capped at T6.



I would remind you that almost all of those problems are solved by a simple solution-the 4th ed tyranid codex.

It was used for half of 5th ed and is fully compatible. newer units (trygons, drop pods hive guard etc..) are easy enough to put back into the old rules (5th ed points costs and stat line-4th ed cost and effects for biomorphs). your zoanathropes are not nearly as durable but everything else becomes better.



It still leaves the issue of lack of reliable anti-tank shooting in an edition defined by tanks and lack of invulnerables in the edition that started the creep towards low AP and invulnerables/FNP. Power-creep, specially in the second half of 5th edition, was an issue. Personally I would like to include some of the 8th edition design decisions regarding the Tyranids, specifically 8th edition Tyranid ranged weapons, improvements regarding Shadow in the Warp and Instinct Behavior and defensive options like Dermic Symbiosis and Encephalic Diffusion.

Moreover you would have to put in like half of the current model line, 4th is still back when the Tyranids' biggest creature in the codex was the Carnifex, which nowadays is the cheapest and more expendable of the Tyranid monsters.

That being said, 4th would make a fine base design to be improved to fit 5th, but it wouldn't be as simple as a plug and play.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
I'm also a fan of 5th edition but mostly because of the codexes, not the general rules. I'd love to play 9th edition with revised 5th edition codexes for example.


I'm of the opposite opinion, I really like the 8th edition Tyranid codex even if it has been left behind by 9th power-creep. And I hated the 5th edition codex.

I have toyed with the idea of refitting the 8th edition codex for 5th edition rules.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/01 16:17:09


 
   
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 aphyon wrote:
It was used for half of 5th ed and is fully compatible. newer units (trygons, drop pods hive guard etc..) are easy enough to put back into the old rules (5th ed points costs and stat line-4th ed cost and effects for biomorphs). your zoanathropes are not nearly as durable but everything else becomes better.
Of the various changes made I could understand GWs desire to move away from aspects of the old nid codex such as their weapon profiles - i.e. Str S-1, AP-, Assault 2X, and the individual stat tweaking and of the biomorphs where an opponent couldn't eyeball the odds of attack or defense without first each unit against their opponents list.
   
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 The Warp Forge wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:


30k is a great resource for considering how to write named characters/unique units for Chapters/Legions that don't have 40k content; they've given all eighteen Legions a lot of stuff to play with.



Yeah, there's a ton but I'm looking at the characters that survived the Heresy. It would look a bit odd if there was a character that just waltzed into 40k when they are meant to be dead...


I'm not trying to suggest that Dynat or Skorr should literally be waltzing onto your 40k battlefield, I'm suggesting reading their abilities and then cloning them wholly or partially for a new character with a different name that does similar things. The distinguishing feature of Dynat, the Harrowmaster, for instance, is an ability called "The Harrowing" that gives your army bonuses while in the enemy deployment zone, so you could make a new Harrowmaster for the 40k period that has The Harrowing adapted to 5e and a different loadout. Also Exodus is a title, not a name, and should totally just waltz onto 40k battlefields.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 19:12:00


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





North-East UK

 AnomanderRake wrote:
 The Warp Forge wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:


30k is a great resource for considering how to write named characters/unique units for Chapters/Legions that don't have 40k content; they've given all eighteen Legions a lot of stuff to play with.



Yeah, there's a ton but I'm looking at the characters that survived the Heresy. It would look a bit odd if there was a character that just waltzed into 40k when they are meant to be dead...


I'm not trying to suggest that Dynat or Skorr should literally be waltzing onto your 40k battlefield, I'm suggesting reading their abilities and then cloning them wholly or partially for a new character with a different name that does similar things. The distinguishing feature of Dynat, the Harrowmaster, for instance, is an ability called "The Harrowing" that gives your army bonuses while in the enemy deployment zone, so you could make a new Harrowmaster for the 40k period that has The Harrowing adapted to 5e and a different loadout. Also Exodus is a title, not a name, and should totally just waltz onto 40k battlefields.


Ok, I hear you. Just make some self-proclaimed 'Harrowmaster'. I can get behind that

Also, would Necron folks like Pariah units to return in this edition?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 21:45:47


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Pariahs were a cool and creepy idea for Necrons (press F for Tomas Macabee) and they were kind of...just disappeared from the fluff with 5th.
   
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North-East UK

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Pariahs were a cool and creepy idea for Necrons (press F for Tomas Macabee) and they were kind of...just disappeared from the fluff with 5th.


Yeah, well I'm going to put Primaris units into the game eventually so now there's no real reason not to add Pariahs again in a growing story.

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North-East UK

Ok, so a bit of a bump here but it may help with progression of what I aim for with the factions.

If you played 5th ed. what factions did you play?

Why did you play those factions?

What made those factions you played so much fun? What was the most enjoyable game you had in 5th ed. with this faction?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/05 01:16:59


Black Templars: WIP
Night Lords (30/40k): WIP
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Orks: 6000pts
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Ever wanted a better 5th ed. 40k? Take a look at 5th ed. Reforged! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/794253.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 The Warp Forge wrote:
Ok, so a bit of a bump here but it may help with progression of what I aim for with the factions.

If you played 5th ed. what factions did you play?

Why did you play those factions?

What made those factions you played so much fun? What was the most enjoyable game you had in 5th ed. with this faction?


Going to ignore the last question because it's frankly been too long for me to have a lot of accurate, specific memories about that. Also going to try to stick to mechanical reasons I enjoyed each faction because saying, "I liked their fluff," doesn't really help you unless I explain what mechanic it was tied to.

Eldar
My first army. These guys had a rough time this edition, but most aspect warriors still felt like they were specialists who were effective at their job back then. My fire dragons could reliably kill a tank without being a massive points sink. My banshees and scorpions could kill things in melee (thanks in part to sweeping advance). I also really liked...
* Always-on warlock powers and warlock sergeants. They were distinct from other factions' psykers and made me go, "Yeah, this guy can be a psyker for several millenia without his head exploding."
* I actually really liked the spirit sight rule on wraith units. They had a 1 in 6 chance of shutting down if they weren't near a psyker. It was a purely detrimental rule that forced you to babysit them with "synapse" psykers. It was flavorful.
* Autarchs being able to grant +/- 1 to reserve rolls. Let me feel like my army was good at sucker punches; again, fluffy.
* Purchasable exarch powers. The current version of this is okay, but it was nice to customize your exarchs and squads for different jobs with different power + weapon combos.
* Blade Storm avengers go SWISHSWISHSWISH! Knowing which turn to use your bladestorm (because you couldn't shoot at all the following turn) was cool.

Dark Eldar
Pre-Codex, their armory was a thing of beauty. Tons of flavorful wargear options with which to customize your HQs and sergeants. Some options were a little better than others, but you could really make your archon feel distinct from your archite.
Post-Codex, the Pain Token version of Power From Pain was viscerally rewarding. A little complicated, but really juicy and rewarding.
In general, moving an open-topped transport forward, disembarking from it, advancing, and then charging made every melee unit in my army feel like a missile . Heck, the transports themselves could basically be missiles with the old ramming rules... Most games, it felt like I was basically throwing my models into the enemy army like darts and then winning games by locking down key units in melee.
Also, one-shotting enemy vehicles with an abundance of dark light felt pretty good in an edition where I absolutely loathed enemy parking lots. Oh, and the troops not feeling like a tax was nice.

Tyranids
Played these guys less and mostly only after they got a new 'dex. But I really loved fielding outflanking armies with tons of genestealers, lictors, and whatever the Hive Commander tyrant sent to help them out. My opponents probably didn't enjoy it as much, but I loved getting that outflanking "sucker punch" with these guys in much the same way I enjoyed eldar reserve manipulation lists. Again, the troops (almost exclusively genestealers) didn't feel like a tax.

Marines
Didn't play them a ton and tried most flavors of them. SW and BA were really good at deepstriking things in, lighting them up with melta, and then tearing things apart in melee in subsequent turns. I think I mostly played them when I wanted a low-effort army that I could just sort of push forward and kill tanks with. Again, I loathed parking lots.
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Ok, so a bit of a bump here but it may help with progression of what I aim for with the factions.

If you played 5th ed. what factions did you play?

Why did you play those factions?

What made those factions you played so much fun? What was the most enjoyable game you had in 5th ed. with this faction?


1. salamanders space marines
2. tyranids
3. tau


1. salamanders because fire/dragons and well they were the "good guys" who look like drow, plus i am a techmarine fan as well as i love dreadnoughts so when the badab war book came out with dreadnoughts as troops for salamanders i was sold.

2. i liked the look of warriors and my wife was a big fan so i built the army partially for her to have an army to play

3. i liked the vehicle designs.

I think they were the most enjoyable because as a casual gamer all my lists had a theme but were also viable to get a good battle in on the table.

I don't have a single enjoyable game i loved more than others since i played hundreds of matches in 5th against dozens of opponents.

There were key fights that stand out...like brey'arth ashmantle getting into a 4 turn (8 combat rounds) brawl with the avatar of kaine

Or the many games where i fought those crafty eldar corsairs (FW list) to a tie when i should have lost....and then there is the power gamer dude who kept copy/pasting tourney lists he would learn about and utterly fail against me because he didn't know how to use said lists.




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