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9th edition codex Tactica!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/16/we-raided-codex-drukhari-and-found-7-rules-youll-want-to-see/

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/18/become-one-of-commorraghs-greatest-crime-lords-with-the-new-drukhari-codex/

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[Thumb - Drukhari  (1).jpg]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/23 21:07:26


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Drukhari Codex Notes:

-Detachment Styles

Drukhari have 3 general ways to construct an army (assuming you want all-drukhari). You can go for the traditional route of simply a battlion or brigade, particularly if you want only one detachment. Second, you can go for all-patrols, a good setup for if you want a setup other than the Realspace raid required 6 units. In competitive, unless someone is looking to take advantage of the bonuses to realspace raids, all patrols will be the preferred army setup - particularly now that spamming minimum-sized units is greatly lessened in power (more on that later). All patrols let you skip out on one required HQ in favor of Drazar, and do not require the fixed setup of 1 kabal, 1 coven, 1 cult, instead allowing for a more focused list.

Subfaction Choice:

As usual for non-marine armies, taking custom subfactions revokes your ability to take the unique relic and warlord trait associated with a core subfaction. however, thanks to some powerful generic traits and relics (particularly those now available to the upgraded Master versions of HQs) and some improved custom traits, custom traits are now worth much more of a look particularly in the Kabals.

Kabals: With the extreme power of Agents of Vect curbed, Black heart is no longer nearly as mandatory as it once was. Bear in mind that the rules for Kabals now specify that an entire DETACHMENT must be relegated to Black Heart in order to gain access to the stratagem - including just one unit is no longer enough. However, the BH trait has been improved significantly.

My general Kabal tier list would be:

-Worst Tier: Mobile Raiders, Webway Raiders, Disdain for Lesser Beings, Soul Bound

In my opinion, these custom traits do not add up to anything that is better than any core kabal trait. At the end of the day, the custom Kabals have the means to provide a detachment with additional deadliness in several different avenues - but none of the other capabilities are particularly exciting.

-D tier: Kabal of the Flayed Skull

The removal of the reroll 1 to hit makes FS quite a bit weaker than it used to be. The FS warlord trait is one of several traits that is just worse than Eternal Hatred, and the Relic is nothing particularly special. Masters of the Shadowed Sky is solid, but there are many many ways to improve hit rolls to a 2+ - power from pain, Trueborn, etc.

-C Tier: Poisoned Tongue

This kabal is only this low because in my opinion you can get better offense out of various combinations of custom kabal traits, and there's nothing in the trait/relic/strat that's absolutely vital. Remember that Combat Attrition is only ever useful against non-Marine/Tyranid armies. Statistically, Toxin Crafters offers a slightly better boost for a poison-spam detachment.

-B Tier: Dark Mirth, Toxin Crafters, Twisted Hunters, Torturous Efficiency, Merciless Razorkin, Deadly Deceivers

These combinations of custom kabal offer either straightforward offense or some interesting new options. Personally, I feel if you're running a shooting-focussed army it makes sense to split your army based on what types of weapons you're armed with. Dark Lances work best in Black Heart, Splinter spam wants to be toxin Crafters or maybe Poisoned Tongue. A detachment based around flyers may find Dark Mirth/Twisted Hunters particularly interesting, as Voidravens and Razorwings will be able to snipe out characters and drop Dark Mirth on the entire opposing army with next to no risk.

-A Tier: Obsidian Rose, Kabal of the Black Heart

Obrose: Oh how the meek have inherited the earth! The key to this trait's power lies with the new rule for Splinter Racks: rapid fire out to full range, and oh by the way full range is now 30" - oh, and splinter cannons fire at full effectiveness out to 42"...damn that's good! Obrose provides a ridiculously safe bread and butter unit of 10 kabalites in a dark lance splinter rack raider - probably with either a pair of blasters and a splitner cannon or a single dark lance and just all splinter rifles - one big weapon to take advantage of that single reroll to wound they get. Given how aggressive so many drukhari units are, these super-safe kabalite units to hold the backfield are excellent support to make sure you keep holding your home objectives and scoring engage on all fronts.

Kabal of the Black Heart: If you're taking a realspace raid detachment, it is REAAAALLY tough to argue with black heart as your kabal. You get a trait, an aura on your archon, and a relic that all work on Blades for Hire units as well as kabalites - nice to have an Archon that's actually worthwhile for buffing things. Writ is as good as ever (still works on Ravagers, too!), the trait is improved, labyrinthine cunning is still decent, lots to like here.

Wych Cults:

-Not Great Tier: Art of Pain (really all this does is allow you to get the turn 3 benefit on turn 2, since a 5++ early in combat is redundant with Dodge, and there's no point in advance and charge if you're already in combat), Acrobatic Display, Bezerk Fugue.

-Honestly seem pretty balanced tier: Um...everything else.

Let's look at customs first. Agile Hunters is the only one that significantly boosts shooting units, if you want to use a lot of reavers with guns and flyers. Test of skill+Precise Killers allows Bloodbrides and Hellions to absolutely butcher vehicles, Trophy Takers works in tandem with a 'freakshow' army setup alongside dark creed and poisoned tongue, and Stimulant Innovators+Slashing makes for a solid turn 2 tempo damage trait combo. Hyperstimm Backlash can get pretty goofy with Stimulant Innovators in particular - when you hyperstimm a succubus with the addict trait, 2 randomly rolled drugs and Stimm Innovators on she has 10 drugs.

The three core cults are no longer quite as distinct structurally in what they want to do and how they want to put their lists together, what with Red Grief no longer allowing you to use Reavers as a turn 1 tempo unit and Cursed Blade no longer making max unit blocks so much more viable than the other two.

Red Grief: Re-roll charge and +2 to advance makes for an obvious turn 2 tempo setup with the new turn 2 power from pain table result. You can set your units up midboard in fairly safe positions and make very easy charges with them turn 2. Obviously, blood glaive is blood glaive, we know it we love it. Precision Blows makes the blood glaive pretty nasty even against high-invuln characters. I don't think master succubus is necessary with a glaive+precision succubus - most characters are just going to get exploded by that combo, the ability to skip out after fighting isn't quite as important. Acrobatic Display remains a great strat as well.

Cult of Strife: the weakest of the bunch when just looking at the codex, the new suppplement makes this one a real option - particularly if you're running a very wych-heavy army. No Method of Death is still great, combos with Hyperstimm and any other offense boosting strat like Blade Well Placed. If you have CP to burn, strife wyches can become absolute monsters. Phial bouquet is still bad, Blood Dancer on Lelith is still obvious. Basically, if you're willing to pour your resources into them and give them center stage, Cult of Strife seems to perform well.

Cursed Blade: I'd consider this the "best returns for low investments" cult. A shardnet+impaler succubus in CB with Treacherous Deceiver and the Traitor's Embrace can absolutely destroy characters worth many more points, and a small unit of, say, 5 hellions dive bombing into a unit with a ton of attacks and a single weapon type - say, Ork Boyz with choppas, assault intercessors, etc - can deal more damage with the Strong will Thrive than they do with their normal attacks.

Covens:

Worst Tier: Dark Harvest, Master Torturers, experimental creations.

B Tier: Prophets of Flesh, Dark Creed, Artists of Flesh, Hungry for Flesh, Masters of Mutagens, Dark Technomancers, Ehanced Sensory Organs, Splinterblades,

Just like with wych cults, the selection this time around feels fairly balanced, rather than the old "one obviously way better than the others." I feel like coven of twelve is slightly on top, just due to being a solid all-rounder that you can never really go wrong with, but all the other options here besides the bad custom traits seem like there's some army setup or reason to take them.

Dark Creed: I do really think a spooky army setup is a viable choice, with Poisoned Tongue, Dark Creed and Trophy Takers wyches togheter in an army. The biggest thing in the way is space marines with their dang Knowing No Fear. Phantasm Grenade Launchers, Grisly Trophies, the Dark Creed trait, and the bonuses to Combat Attrition (easily stacking up to -3 with Poisoned Tongue, Dark Creed and Pray they Dont Take You Alive) make a freakshow army truly viable into any meta without tons of marines. There's even a fun secondary for it!

Prophets of Flesh: Basically the one you take if you want Urien. Urien's fine still, great for boosting up a big ol' unit of grotesques, which also make great use of the PoF stratagem and arguably the best use of their trait, which is much much MUCH MUCH weaker than it used to be.

Dark Technomancers: Say, do you like double liquifier wrack squads in venoms? Because that's what dark technomancers is good for now. Well, I guess theoretically cronos pain engines and double liquifier talos as well. Point is: weapons that make hit rolls are now much more risky with dark tech, but hey! Weapons that hit automatically don't care at all! woohoo!

Artists of Flesh: If you just want your covens to act as a brick to break your enemies against, this one is just superior to Prophets of Flesh. with the new free healing from haemonculi, the Haemoxites Upgrade in addition to Twisted Animator (HAEMOXYTE keyword doesn't replace WRACK keyword!), Alchemical Maestro....yeah, coven units with this trait can be going nowhere fast.

Obsessive Collectors+either Experimental Creations or Masters of Mutagens: A fun meme trait for 20-man wrack squads with the new squad cap. Gray Spiky Tide, anyone? Just make sure you also have the upgraded master haemonculus to regenerate even more dead wracks. Bonus points if you eat necrons to resurrect wracks to establish dominance!

A tier: Coven of 12

This is the one I look at and think "You basically can't go wrong picking this one." it doens't do any one thing the best, but it has a solid offense buff, a solid boost for simple little objective holding Ossefactor+Hexrifle Wrack squads, and good boosts to turn your haemie into a legitimate character killing threat. Nothing really dislikes being Coven of 12 in the covens list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/02 11:53:55


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Unit Analysis (primarily focusing on changes from 8th to 9th)

All units: Gained Blade Artists, new Power from Pain replaces old PFP

All coven units: Insensible now 5+FNP instead of 5++

All Wych Cult units: Drugs now freely stackable or roll for 2, +LD drug now also adds +1BS, +1A drug now only works on the charge.

Archon

Changes: Sv 5+ to 4+, Overlord now affects INCUBI but only affects <kabal> CORE, Huskblade now only S: User, damage 2 instead of damage D3. Venom Blade now -1AP, power sword now +1S.

Analysis: The Archon definitely needs investment to be any kind of worthwhile. Black Heart can run a decent buffer archon in a Realspace raid, allowing him to buff units like Mandrakes and Scourges with his aura and giving him the Writ to make his aura more worthwhile, but I feel like any other Kabal that doesn't duck the Archon in favor of Drazar needs to give him a few bonuses to make him not suck. The Eternal Hatred warlord trait, Djinn Blade and Master Archon upgrade turn him into a real threat. stick him, Drazar (hey, he makes him reroll 1s to hit!) and a min size Court into a venom for a scary anti-elite unit. Or just run him with 5 incubi if you don't want to invest that many points.

Succubus

Changes: +2A, Brides of Death now only affects CORE (doesn't matter at all, since Reavers and Hellions are CORE), Archite Glaive now not -1 to hit. Shardnet and Impaler now -1 to No Escape instead of D3 and now AP-2, Razorflails now Ax2 instead of A+D3 and no longer reroll hits, Hydra Gaunts now S+2 and AP-2, no longer reroll wounds.

Analysis: Wych Weapons are still 100% what you want to go for if you don't want to relic her up, with Razorflails the succubus throws a hilarious 18 attacks with Hypex and Quicksilver fighter, and the Shardnet+Impaler offers a respectable AP-2 D2 melee weapon with plenty of attacks to threaten a character. If you've got the model with the glaive, do yourself a favor and just pay the 15 points for a master succubus with the relic, it's quite a good weapon.

Haemonculus: -1A, +1W, Master of Pain no longer affects vehicles, Lost weapon options. Haemie tools now poison 2+, ichor injector now no longer feths around and just does 1MW on a hit, scissorhand now gives 2 bonus attacks. Fleshcraft now a datasheet ability instead of a strat.

Analysis: the loss of the electrocorrosive whip makes the default haemie more of a support unit than a killer. Using certain relics, traits, combos etc you can make him a threat, but by default he's much less potent. Luckily, his support powers (particularly with being able to also resurrect wracks as a master haemie) have been improved. Other than coven-specific traits and relics, there's not really much worth giving this guy - I'd guess that most often you'd just go for the +1 to wound trait and no relic, and then have him attack with his scissorhands exclusively rather than using the tools. Or just Master Regenist for more heals. If you're going to use the stratagem to give everyone a warlord trait, it's probably worthwhile to upgrade the Haemie to master so that you can use him to resurrect Haemoxytes.

Lelith Hesperax: +3A, Blades now +1S, -3AP, and score extra hits on 6 to hit. Brides of Death no longer works on transports. Quicksilver Dodge now 4++ -1 to hit. Gained Deadly Dance (6" consolidate in any direction). Natural Perfection now either charge after advance/fall back or fight twice if you kill any models.

Analysis: Despite fears that she would not be able to kill characters, Brides of Death makes lelith plenty murderous (4 hits on a 6 to hit XD). She deals 4 unsaved wounds on average vs a T4 4++ target with her warlord trait on, and kills her points back in most infantry units she manages to get into. Basically Lelith is worth bringing in any kind of cult of strife detachment, even without a D2 weapon.

Drazar: (comparing him to codex drazar for the lulz) +1W, +1A, +1 to invuln save, +2 damage and +1S to single blade, +1S +1D on dual klaive, Master of Blades now adds +1 to wound (still affects himself!), Tormenters now causes enemy unit to fight last if you roll 2d6>ld, now has -1 to damage, now fights twice (immediately, not end of phase).

Analysis: Holy. F'ing. gak does this guy shred. Space marine captain profile? dual klaive profile does TEN unsaved wounds. Gravis profile? 6.5 dead. A fething tank? 10.5 wounds on average. Drazar is basically instant death to anything that doesn't have crazy special rule shenanigans and he only costs 130 points. If you're going for Patrol army building setup, basically whichever HQ type is the most of a tax for you, you should swap out for Drazar. Also, he's quite considerate: He doesn't need warlord traits or relics to do his thang!

Urien Rakarth: +1W, +1A, Casket now autohits, Haemie tools now Poison 2+, Ichor injector now 1MW on hit, gained Sustained by Dark Science, gained Fleshcraft, auras now only affect core (no more +1S raiders :( )

Analysis: Was kind of a bland buffbot, now at least a decent combatant and even more obnoxious to kill. If you're in PoF and you were gonna take a master haemonculus, you might as well take Urien, and you might as well give him a big ol' unit of double cleaver Talos and/or Grotesques to boost the strength of. The new Diabolical Soothsayer makes him just hilariously durable - T6, W7, half damage, 4++ 5+FNP, resurrects when he dies.

Kabalite Warriors: A+1, SV5+ to 4+. can now take 2 specials and 1 heavy at 10 models. Sybarite can now have splinter rifle and melee weapon. Phantasm grenade now rolls 2d6 vs ld to deal 1mw for each hit, shredder now 18" range but no longer rerolls wounds, darklance now D3+3, splinter cannon now bad heavy bolter. can now be upgraded to 2+bs trueborn for +2PPM.

10 Kabalites in a Raider are now improved by the addition of the extra special, and with several kabals synergizing with the new splinter racks that setup will most likely be more common than it used to be. That unit is particularly devious as Trueborn, who can do stuff like shoot flyers on a 2+ ignoring modifiers, and can move and shoot with the dark lance in the squad. Sadly, the splinter cannon is looking much worse than it used to be - dedicated anti-infantry kabal squads are likely to stick to 5 man in a venom with a shredder.

Wyches: +1A, -1AP on hekatarii blade. Various wych weapon changes detailed in Succubus section, Dodge is the same (LOL thanks Power from Pain you're super helpful...) and wyches can now only take 1 of each special wych weapon for each 10 models in the unit...no wych weapons for min squads. Can now be upgraded to Bloodbrides for +2PPM with improved Blade Artists.

Analysis: Min wych squads are way less useful than they used to be, adding to what I would say is going to be a common trend of 10-squads of wyches and kabs in raiders becoming much more common than they used to be. Luckily, basic knife wyches with -1AP blades and Blade Artists. Bloodbrides are definitely the least useful of the upgraded squad types. With no more reroll charges turn 2 ad no more morale immunity, deep striking 20 wyches is also a lot less viable. In general, I feel like wyches are better than they used to be, but more one-note: the number of times I would choose to bring anything besides 10-strong squad, blast pistol+1 of each special and +1A drugs is very small.

Wracks: Wrack blades now -1AP, Ossefactor now 2D, no longer does the bonesplosion thing, Hexrifle now S6 AP-2 D2, electrocorrosive now D1 but 2x attacks, Mindphase now D2, liquifier now 12"r S4 AP-2 d1. Normal unit cap now 20. can now be upgraded to extra tough haemoxytes.

Analysis: Double liquifier 5-man wrack squads are now better, Hexrifle+Ossefactor squads now perform for everyone like they used to perform for Dark Techno, and they gained several ways to be resurrected. Also, 8ppm down from 12 is a really welcome boost, and it turns out durability is only slightly lost (6++ 5+FNP vs 5++ 6+FNP). Basically, you liked wracks before? Like em more now! Electrocorrosive seems to still be the best weapon option, incidentally. It's a tradition now!

Court of the Archon: now a unit again rather than 4 different units. Sslyth now T3 down from T5, Sslyth blade now AP-2 from AP-1, if the unit contains Sslyth Archons within 3" cant be targeted. urghul talons now AP-1, now 5+FNP instead of 5++ (with PFP as well). Lhamean now gives an aura of 6 to hit with poison weapons automatically wound to archons and Trueborn. Medusa eyeburst now 12" range, pistol, and hits automatically. now also Core! Also, you can take a hilarious number of these suckers. The unit cap is 16 now, though only 4 max of any one member makes it pretty unlikely theyll ever be fielded like that. an 8-man court with 4 urghul and 4 sslyth may have potential however.

Analysis: At 18ppm, Sslyths do seem to have a reason to be compared to Incubi, but the urghul definitely seem like you'd only take them if you've already maxed out on Sslyth. Sslyths though...a Shardcarbine, 3 S5 Ap-2 D1 attacks, 3 wounds with 6++ 5+FNP, and the special bodyguard thing, that's pretty fun especially in poisoned tongue. Sadly a lhamean can't buff her own unit. A venom full of Medusae does also seem to have potential - 12" range autohitting AP-2 flamers for 22pts isn't bad. Lhameans seem pretty bad though.

Incubi: +1A, +1S, +1D on both klaive types, Tormentors now 2d6 vs LD to fight last, still has Lethal precision, yay!

Analysis: What's to say? these dudes are just fantastic. Now with upgraded transport capacity, a venom with incubi and an archon in it is just, *chefs kiss*. You can also run them alongside Drazar to turn them into a true murder blender. 2x5 man squads are always better than 1x10 though - double demiklaives, more wounds, just, better.

Mandrakes: Now have Space Marine style scout deployment instead of deep strike, and can fade away at the start of your movmeent phase to go into strategic reserves. No statline changes.

Analysis: with the loss of red grief turn 1 tempo units, Mandrakes getting space marine infiltrate is great. If you wnat to deep strike them normally, you can just plop them down on the battlefield behind something and then fade them away turn 1 - also helpfully having them on the board if your opponent wins first turn and pulls an aggressive move. Losing old PFP FNP does ding their defenses, but they're still fairly irritating to get rid of with -1 to hit and 5++.

Grotesques: Monstrous Cleaver now D2, Liquifier now 12" range, S4 Ap-2 D1 autohitting. Flesh gauntlet now +1S.

Analysis: The gauntlet is now even more pointless, so a mix of liquifiers and maybe very slightly cheaper designated die-er Groteques is the way to set the unit up. Otherwise, not much to say about them: they've always been a bit of a brick unit, now with D2 melee they're killier than before.

Beastmaster: Now required to bring any beasts - 3 beast units for each master. Now T4. can optionally not take up a slot if you include any beasts.

Clawed Fiends: Claws now AP-2

Khymerae: Claws and Talons now S+1 AP-1

Razorwings: Now unit size 3-8

Analysis: Clawed Fiends seem to be the best option overall for beasts if you're gonna bring them, but they now hoover up fast attack slots in a subfaction that reeeeeeeeally wants them. I don't see Beasts being super popular in many army build setups, considering you're gonna want Hellions, Scourges, and Reavers - maybe if you're running with a Realspace raid brigade you'll have the slots to throw in a few scorer fiends and a master.

Reavers: +1A, Bladevanes now S+1 instead of fixed 4, Cluster Caltrops now key off enemy units falling back, Grav Talon now deals D3mw on a 6. heat lance now heavy 1 18" S8 AP-4 D6+2.

Analysis: Heat lances are now ridiculously spicy at 10pts, and reavers are great at carrying them. Bladevanes being S+1 is a nice little add, particularly with the extra attack and all the various ways to give them S+1. There's also a new +1 Ballistic Skill combat drug that's just fantastic on them, and with drugs not being limited anymore you can freely field as many BS2+ heat lances in 3 man squads as you want...well, slots allowing. At 70pts for a min squad with a heat lance, they seem like a viable alternative to blaster scourges at 100pts.

Hellions: T+1 to 4, W+1 to 2, A+1, Hellglaive now AP-1.

Analysis: Damn, what an improvement! They're basically choppy flavored Reavers now, a good little anti-MEQ unit for Wych Cults. The -1AP, Blade Artists, +1A on the charge drug, and +1S from Cursed Blade makes these a real threat to marine units.

Scourges: Ghostplate Armor now a 5+ invuln. now Core.

Analysis: Another edition, another time to figure out which weapon is best on scourges!

Anti-GEQ weaponry:

Shardcarbines: 60pts, 3.32 dead GEQ, 0.055pts per GEQ wound
4 shredders: 80pts, 7.13 dead GEQ, 0.089pts per GEQ wound

Shredders>shards. Shards do have various bonuses available.

Anti-Tank weaponry:

4 blasters: 100pts, 6.2 unsaved wounds, .062 wounds per point
4 Haywire: 100pts, 5.05 unsaved wounds, .05 wounds per point (vast majority of damage is MWs, avoiding Invuln saves)
4 Dark Lance: 120pts, 6.66 unsaved wounds, .055 wounds per point (much longer range)
4 heat lance: 100pts, 7.33 unsaved wounds, .073 wounds per point

Heat lances are best for raw damage, Haywire offers less efficiency but does damage in the form of mortal wounds, and dark lances offer the flexibiliyt of range. I think an argument can be made for all 3. Also, worth noting one thing: with a Realspace Raid a Scourge squad can benefit from the Archon's aura and potentially the Writ of the Living Muse.

Talos: All guns improved, core rule changes, Ichor Injector now does D3 mortals on hit, otherwise unchanged.

With the points for the melee weapon list greatly altered, the arm weaponry is now much more of a choice. heat lances for the guns seem like super no-brainers, though of course the capability to ignore invulns with MWs on the haywire blasters as with the Scourges should be considered. The best builds armwise, to me, seem to be:

-Basic Talos, double cleaver
-Flex to kill 1w models talos, flail+injector
-Expensive good at killing everything talos, Gauntlet+Twin Liq (group with 2 other cheaper talos to add teeth to the unit)

Cronos: Attacks +1 to 4, strength of both ranged weapons +2 to 5, damage characteristic on 6 to 2 from D3 on all weapons. Gained the ability Reservoir of Pain, for each model destroyed in melee 1 CORE unit within 6 can heal by 1 or regain a lost model with 1 wound remaining. Explosion reduced in range to 3". Spirit Probe now limited to CORE and CHARACTER, which does allow him to buff/heal himself since he is CORE.

Analysis: IMO the cronos goes from contender for the worst unit in the game to the heady heights of mediocrity. Not sure what Scari sees in it as an auto-include, it seems like a fine addition to any army that includes some kind of large turn 2 tempo brick unit that's going to aim to soak turn 1 fire instead of avoid turn 1 fire (i.e., not hiding in transports or trying to use extreme mobility to hide midboard behind Obscuring turn 1, so something like a 20-block of Wracks, a max squad of grots on foot, a couple units of Talos, 20 wyches is that a thing anyone's gonna try, maybe, I dunno, probably not. Spirit Probe/No Vortex seems like the obvious loadout for him, and you gotta note the obvious synergy with the new Dark Technomancers, he's yet another coven unit that doesn't really care about the new downside for that rule as his Syphon autohits so he can just overcharge it every turn for zero risk. Another fun function is his use within what I'm waffling between calling "Wrackcrons" and "Pointy Tide" - he provides yet another means to resurrect Wrack models which now have a max unit cap of 20, take them in the 'Heal when you destroy/+1S" custom coven and use them with a master haemonculus with the warlord trait and you just have a ton of dudes that will. not. die.

Ravager: Dark Lances now D3+3, Wounds+1 to 11, disintegrators and Dark Lances now heavy, Chain Snares Shock Prow Grisly Trophies and PGL all reworked.

Analysis: straightforward shooty unit remains straightforward shooty unit. Got a small bump in durability, a small bit more offense in the previously anemic triple lance build (and some nice synergy with a few more Kabals, particularly the two that come with little rerolls) but overall, does the same thing he's always done.

Raider: +1 toughness to tough 6, Chain Snares now +3 to A, Grisly Trophies now -2LD, Bladevanes now +1S, PGL now reworked to cause mortal wounds on each hit, Shock Prow now a strat, Splinter Racks now rapid fire at full range, Transport Capacity up +1 to 11. Now has access to Power from Pain.

Analysis: While the raider lost access to all the auras, overall it's got some huge improvements. Wych cults can use the new chain snares and grisly trophies to amusing effect and the new bladevanes offer some extra fun synergy with a few cults (particularly Cursed Blade making its melee attacks Strength 8), kabals love the new splinter racks and several kabals now feature a single reroll making the improved dark lance on the raider even more effective, and covens can make use of its ability to carry a five-man grotesque squad and an attendant Haemonculus or Urien Rakarth. And with all of them, the slight bump in durability with the +1T is particularly nice in light of the new Heavy Bolter profile. I predict we'll see a whole lot more of these being run now as opposed to Venoms in many different lists.

Venom: Bladevanes now +1S, transport capacity now 6, Splinter Cannons now Heavy 3 36" range Poison 4+ AP-1 D2, Grisly trophies now -2LD, chain snares now +3A, now has power from pain.

Analysis: I think venoms are now slightly more niche than they used to be as 'the default transport'. There are a few combos where they're quite good still - Dark Techno or Dark Creed 5x wracks with 2x liquifiers and the venom rocking Grisly Trophies, Poisoned Tongue shredder kabal squad with 2x splinter cannons on the venom, but generally a bit more limited than before IMO.

Razorwing Jetfighter: Dark Lance now 3+d3, Shatterfield now AP-2 but no reroll to wounds, Splinter cannons now D2, now has PFP.

Analysis: Basically didn't change. We may see a few more flyers due to people running Realspace raid detachments and being able to bring a few more of them, or we may see less now that Test of Skill no longer benefits them. Definitely Wych Cults want flyers less now.

Voidraven bomber: Dark Scythe now 2 damage, Void Lance now D3+3, Implosion Missile now D2, Shatterfield now AP-2 with no rroll to wound. Void mine now targets a spot on the battlefield and rolls a D6 for each unit within 6" of that point, subtracting 1 for a character, and dealing D6 MWs on a 4+.

Analysis: The voidraven is now one spicy little meatball, and definitely something to consider instead of a triple disintegrator Ravager if you were fielding one of those. Particularly on the Kabal side, this thing offers a ridiculously potent counter to any kind of "reroll aura ball MSU" army setup and you can load him up with exclusively damage flat 2 weaponry between the missiles and dark scythes. Basically this thing is like the current ork tactic with Burna Bombers to counter standard marine builds, but slightly less potent and it doesn't explodinate itself when you use it, which I would consider an absolute win.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/24 15:39:46


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
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Triptch Whip: +3A, Poison 2+ AP-3 D2
Dancer's Edge: (Master succubus) S+2, AP-4, D2, invulns cant be taken against wounds of 6
Blood Glaive: (Red Grief), S+2 AP-3 D3
Relic Glaive: (Strife) S+2, AP-5, D2, +1 to wound vs ld8+, 1MW if you don't target models with LD8+
Relic Agonizer: (Strife) Select one model who can't fall back
Garland of Spite (Strife): Select one enemy model and halve its attacks as well as autohit it
Dark Lotus Toxin: (Strife), +1S and +1D to all weapons on model
Phial Bouquet: (Strife) 1d6 random drug each round
Traitors Embrace: (Cursed Blade), if killed in melee 2+ to deal 3+d3mw

Breaking down the succubus relics, the generic of the Triptch Whip offers a high baseline. A Triptch Whip succubus is more effective against any target she has any business fighting by a wide margin: Assuming +A drugs 6.94 GEQ 5.78 MEQ 2.31 TEQ (all expressed as Killed Models) 6.94 CEQ (Marine Captain Equivalent 4++ multiwound character, expressed as Unsaved Wounds)

The Dancer's Edge offers one capability that almost no other relic setup offers: A succubus that can threaten vehicles. A Cult of the Cursed Blade succubus with Strength drugs and Dancers Edge/Blast Pistol deals 6.94 unsaved wounds vs a t7 3+ target. 4.86 GEQ 4.02 MEQ 1.802 TEQ 5.41 CEQ. Theoretically the strife glaive can perform a similar function but it's dependent on the +1 to wound getting it to 4+ vs vehicle targets. Some vehicles (Space Marine, Necron, Knights, etc) are LD8+ but others (Eldar, Guard, Ork) are not.

Grave Lotus on a Glaive/Blast Pistol succubus with strength drugs get close (6.66 wounds vs t7 3+) if you're in Strife and you don't want to be dependent on your opponent having ld8 vehicle targets. Note that (just going off of the secondhand leaks) grave lotus affects the strength and damage of the blast pistol as well, which is why that one is able to come close. If grave lotus is only on melee weaponry its always better to go for the Strife Relic Glaive.

A note on warlord traits: Precision Blows>Quicksilver Fighter. The mortal wounds not only provide better results with most weaponry.
Triptch Whip Quicksilver Fighter: 8.32 GEQ 6.94 MEQ 2.77 TEQ 8.33 CEQ
Triptch Whip Precision Blows: 8.95 GEQ 6.32 MEQ 2.98 TEQ 8.95 CEQ

Blood Glaive with Precision is particularly solid because it is D3 and you get a blast pistol: 7.37 GEQ 5.06 MEQ 3.95 TEQ 8.58 CEQ. D3 makes it a particular sweet spot for murdering elite infantry expressed as TEQ (3W 5++ infantry)

If you decide to go for one of the defensive/utility based relics, of which the only ones that are really worthwhile are the Garland (A powerful pick against targets like super pumped up named characters, knights, etc) and the Traitors Embrace, your best pick appears to be a Shardnet+Impaler with +strength drugs. Without accounting for any warlord trait (Precision is still best for damage) you're looking at: 3.833 GEQ 2.91 MEQ 0.73 TEQ 2.91 CEQ

Just For Fun: WHAT KIND OF DRUGS WERE THEY DENNY?
The most optimal druggubus is roll 2 times randomly on the table, take the stimm addict trait, use the Stimulant Innovators custom cult, and hand her that Dancer's Edge so she's got a weapon that's actually using her core strength stat. You do re-roll results of 6 thankfully on stimm addict so you're slightly less likely to end up with one of the two results you don't want (+1BS +1LD) so you are very likely to be able to pop Hyperstimm Backlash and have a succubus with +2S +2A +2T +4" move. with 5 mostly random drug effects you're likely to have at least one of the +WS/+BS womp womps but who cares.

Archon
Parasite's kiss: 12"r pistol 3 poison 2+ AP-2 D2, regain +1 wound for each model destroyed
Djinn Blade: S+1 AP-3 D3, +2A, roll a d6 each time you fight on a 1 suffer a mortal.
Soul Seeker: 18" pistol 2 poison 2+ AP-2 Dd3, ignore look out sir, no cover.
Animus Vitae: Essentially 2+ to grant +1 to hit on turn 2 instead of turn 3 for your turn 2 tempo list
Helm of Spite: Bearer can DTW, if they succeed the psyker takes a perils
Obsidian Veil: 4++
Armor of Misery: 3+sv, -1 to hit
Writ of living muse (black heart): rr 1s to wound kabal CORE, blades for hire if in RSR.
Soulhelm (Master archon): -1 to hit, 5+ FNP

The Archon is basically a similar game to the succubus with a more nebulous aim: Can you get better usage out of your relic/trait combo than you can get by running djinn blade/blast pistol with eternal hatred?

Because here's the thing: The Djinn Blade/Blast Pistol Eternal Hatred archon is a MONSTER.
5.22 GEQ, 5.22 MEQ, 3.47 TEQ, 7.122 CEQ
11.5 unsaved wounds vs T7 3+

So right off the bat: both pistol weapons reduce his damage swapping the Blade for a Huskblade. If you're running a pure shooty list, Parasites Kiss might be worthwhile to bring in a Venom lets say if the archon is rolling with a Shredder squad of Poisoned Tongue kabalites, you're not bringing any Incubi you're not bringing a Court so you just want your archon to be shooty, that's fine.

Animus Vitae is an interesting option IMO if youre running a list with a lot of turn 2 tempo melee units (Grotesques, Wyches in transports, Incubi/drazar in transport, hellions etc. You huck it out turn 2, and you get the turn 3 eager to flay for your big damage punch turn 2. Across your whole army, it's easy for +1WS to outclass the admittedly good damage the archon can be putting out. Helm of spite is similarly fine in a psyker heavy meta, we're familiar with what that brings to the table at this point.

All defensive relics IMO are a waste of time. The archon is not going to survive a round of attacks with a 3+ and -1 to hit or a 4++ post-shadowfield or a -1 5+FNP he wouldn't have survived before, he's a squishy T3 W5 character. 40k is a game of rocket tag, the 2++ is a better means to not die unexpectedly than most characters pack and gives the archon an unexpected edge in many matchups he has no business winning as a 90pt model, I'd say stick with that and give him the absurd offense that Hatred+Djinn Blade brings.

And then lastly there's the Writ, which I think makes for the only real viable 'support archon' setup where you just take a cheapo weapon, the writ, labyrinthine cunning and you make sure he's standing on the battlefield at the start of the game, ideally in a RSR detachment in range of some Talos for him to buff the shooting of and maybe with some extra scourges to drop down turn 2 and get reroll 1s to hit and wound from him.

Haemonculus:
Spirit Sting (Dark Creed): 12"r pistol 3 poison 2+ AP-3 d1, no invuln saves
Vexator Mask (Prophets of FLesh): No overwatch, select one enemy unit when fighting to fight last.
Nightmare Doll: Haemonculus gets 4+fnp instead of 5+
Flensing Blade (Co12): S: user poison 2+, AP-2 Dd3, D3 vs characters
Poisoners Ampoule (master haemie): Once per battle enemy unit within 9" takes d3 mortals on 2+, cant give auras, cant receive auras.


Haemie definitely has the most oddball list and I'd rate him as the one of the three I'd be most likely to leave relic-less. He doesn't get to be a "plus one" with Alliance of Agony when it comes to relics, so unless you've got a real good plan for them, I think probably leave that at home and give the relics to the two characters who can use them to become crazy damage factories.

Nightmare Doll is totally useless (RIP my puppetmaster Haemonculus scratchbuild who I usually ran as having it) Spirit Sting is cute but meh, Poisoners Ampoule seems pretty good in concept but realistically it'll be turn 3 probably before it gets used.

Vex Mask used to be good when Overwatch was a real thing in 8th, in 9th I think it's not a game changer, if your running PoF you've got extremely good odds that your sole HQ is going to be Urien so its kind of unlikely to see play anyway.

The only one I think 'wow, that meaningfully changes the game for the haemonculus" is the flensing blade, which makes him a fairly talented character disembowler. I'd usually go for this one because (in my experience anyway) my haemonculus is the one character who almost always gets multiple rounds of combat unmurderized because he's rolling with a big gang of lumpy lads my opponent tends to be far more concerned with. As characters go the haemie is built like a brick gak so when people do target him, they often end up disappointed.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Good amount of large information, thanks.

15k+
3k
Emperor's Spears 2k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
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In the succubus discussion/breakdown I would add the fact that the tripwhip can threaten vehicles better then any other loadout when using the strat to allow poison to kill a vehicle. Even better then the dancers edge cursed blade if I'm not mistaken.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Red Corsair wrote:
In the succubus discussion/breakdown I would add the fact that the tripwhip can threaten vehicles better then any other loadout when using the strat to allow poison to kill a vehicle. Even better then the dancers edge cursed blade if I'm not mistaken.


Sadly I believe Potent Metallotoxins is restricted from interacting with any relics. Otherwise a Succubus could easily one shot any non-Titanic target..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/23 22:01:16


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

On a semi-related note, I just noticed that the Lhamaean Toxin Crafter rule doesn't specify that you have to be attacking a non-vehicle or even a non-titanic unit.

So when a Lhamaean is around, a to-hit roll of 6 with a poisoned weapon will auto-wound a vehicle or even a Titanic unit.


Probably not all that useful, really, I just thought it was amusing.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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TALOS DURABILITY WITH THE NEW CODEX

Like many others, I was so used to having a 4++ on all my Talos that seeing them change to a 6++ was devastating at first. Clearly inferior, right? After considering several different scenarios and factoring in all the other rules changes to the Talos I now believe that Talos durability has actually been IMPROVED in most cases. The obvious exception is against high damage weapons like melta, but even then it is not as bad as you might think. If you are willing to support your Talos units with a Haemonculus, Cronos, or both they are actually more resilient than before under the proper circumstances. I looked at different versions of the Talos:

1) Old Prophets of Flesh: 3+/4++/6+++
2) New Prophets of Flesh: 3+/6++/5+++ can't be wounded on a 1-3 unless weapon is S8+
4) New Artists of the Flesh: 3+/6++/5+++ -1D

For all calculations I ignored auras and stratagems, but factored in whether it was turn 1 or turn 4 when the invulnerable save increases to 5++. We are actually improved in this area as I will mention later. My final conclusion is that a New Artists of the Flesh Talos is more resilient than an Old Prophets of Flesh Talos. I do want to note that another benefit of the New Prophets of Flesh is that each unit regains 1 lost wound every command phase. That is not factored in to the total damage below, but you can imagine subtracting 1 from each of the New PoF numbers to take this into account if the situation would call for it.

Mortal Wounds: A straight up buff from Old to New. We are now shrugging off twice as many MWs with a 5+++ rather than the old 6+++. One of the main things I noticed reading through our new codex is just how many MWs can be inflicted by our units, so being better against MWs is nothing to dismiss.

AP0 or AP-1 weapons: A straight up buff from Old to New. If the Talos is making 3+ or 4+ armor saves, then it is absolutely more resilient now, thanks to the improved Feel no Pain save. Against weapons with a AP-1 that deal D2, like the heavy bolter, they basically tickle a New Artists of the Flesh Talos. With 9th edition becoming more killy, a lot of these smaller weapons are being bumped up to D2 so -1D has more benefits than against just heavy weapons with a high damage characteristic.

10 Hits with a Heavy Bolter (S5, AP-1, D2)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF: 2.3 damage caused
New AotF: 1.2 damage caused

AP-2 weapons: These weapons would have normally been saved with a 4++ invulnerable with Old PoF, and now require a 5+ armor save. For D1 weapons, it is a slight nerf.

10 Hits with a Lightning Claw (S4 reroll wounds, AP-2, D1)
Old PoF: 2.4 damage caused
New PoF: 2.5 damage caused
New AotF: 2.5 damage caused

However, if you look at multi-damage AP-2 weapons, there is a significant buff to New AotF.

10 Hits with a Thunder Hammer (S8, AP-2, D3)
Old PoF: 8.4 damage caused
New PoF: 8.9 damage caused
New AotF: 6.0 damage caused

AP-3 weapons S6 or less: This category had one of the largest nerfs with the new rules, as the old invulnerable save absorbed more of the wounds. What is important to note, though, is once a Talos gets to turn 4 it is about as resilient as the Old PoF version against D1 weapons, only taking a fraction more damage.

10 Hits with a Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D1)
Old PoF: 1.4 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

Once you look at multi-damage weapons the New AotF significantly pulls ahead.

10 Hits with a Bladeguard Master-crafted Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D2)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

These results suggest that AotF Talos will be able to tank elite melee units like Bladeguard and Incubi much better than the old PoF ever could.

S7 Weapons: I did want to do a comparison in that rare circumstance where a T6 PoF Talos can use its obsession rule against a S7 weapon, which cannot wound it on a 1-3. This entire interaction can be avoided with a +1T Haemonculus buff but it was worth looking at.

10 Hits with a Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D1)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 2.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

Here is the only case where a New AotF Talos performs much worse. BUT, against multi-damage weapons, the AotF Talos pulls ahead once again.

10 Hits with a Supercharge Assault Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D2)
Old PoF: 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

Talos Killing Weapons: The biggest concern with the Talos changes, let's look at those weapons you always see deployed across from you and shooting your Talos.

10 Hits with a half-range Melta (S8, AP-4, Dd6+2)
Old PoF: 15.3 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 20.4 damage caused (Ouch!)
New PoF (turn4): 16.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 16.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 13.4 damage caused

10 Hits with a Dark Lance (S8, AP-4, Dd3+3)
Old PoF: 13.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 18.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 11.9 damage caused

So if you're using PoF Talos with the new codex, you are definitely going to see your models die faster in the first turn as they are taking 33% more damage. However, if you go with AotF, there is only a 7-10% increase in damage taken in the first turn. A turn 4 AotF Talos is more durable than ever.

Discussion: While the reduction in Talos durability is noticeable with Prophets of Flesh, taking the Artists of the Flesh obsession alleviates the nerf against melta weapons and other high damage attacks while making the Talos tougher against almost all other weapons. In fact, an AotF Talos benefitting from turn 4 Power from Pain is the most durable we have ever been. This is why I think the new Pain Syphon stratagem is a gem. If you can whittle down an enemy unit and finish it off with Talos ranged weapons on turn 1 or 2, while a Cronos is within 6" of the Talos unit, you will benefit from Power from Pain as if it is turn 5 for the entire game. This is huge, and not too difficult to achieve.

We also have a new coven relic that cancels auras on a unit for one battle round. Using this at the right time will certainly make a unit of Talos survive where an old Prophets of Flesh unit would not, and is a fantastic tool for us to have once per game. Offensively, the Talos received many global buffs and an Artists of the Flesh Talos gets to benefit from all of these.

So, why does this seem so good? The answer is the obsession really only helps coven monsters. Artists of the Flesh no longer affects vehicles, and Wracks gain much less from it than if they are Prophets of Flesh. If you are going light on Wracks and vehicles, though, and bringing lots of Talos and Cronos (like me), I conclude that Artists of the Flesh will result in an army that is not only better at doing damage than the old PoF version, but more durable as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/24 01:55:35


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Possibly pedantic - but I don't think Splinterblades belongs in the bottom tier of custom Covens. An additional hit on 6s adds up. Mathematically I think its around the same as +1 AP versus 3+ save targets. Worse versus 2+ or 1+, but better against 4+ and up. For pure Wracktide pairing it with 6s causing automatic wounds would also be okay, although it has Skornegy with Blade Artists. So reroll charges is probably preferable. Or perhaps fancy your chances eating units to get the regeneration, if the meta is leaning towards MSU.

Although just running around with Dark Technomancer liquefiers seems like a probable optimal choice.

I'm not sure its strictly speaking sensible, but in a world where money is no object - (Idk, TTS)...

Haemi
Haemi
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
10 Wracks 3 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers

Drazhar
Haemi
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers
5 Wracks 2 Liquifiers

8 Raiders.

Annoyingly you have 25 points left over. So you'd probably ditch a Wrack and a liquifier from one of the 10 man squads to upgrade your warlord to master and one unit to Haemoxytes. But this is more of a thought experiment, so why not break out some Electrowhips instead.
   
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There is a particular Dark Technomancer loadout that I hope will gain traction.

3 Grotesques w/ 3 liquifiers
5 Wracks w/ 2 liquifiers

This all fits snugly into the new 11-capacity Raider, but gives you 5 liquifiers instead of 4 if you use two Wrack units. 5 Grotesques in a Raider would also net you 5 liquifiers but then you risk losing a 45-point model when the transport is destroyed. With the 3 Grot, 5 Wrack mixture you can lose regular Wracks to crashes.

   
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Preacher of the Emperor






USA

 Oaka wrote:
There is a particular Dark Technomancer loadout that I hope will gain traction.

3 Grotesques w/ 3 liquifiers
5 Wracks w/ 2 liquifiers

This all fits snugly into the new 11-capacity Raider, but gives you 5 liquifiers instead of 4 if you use two Wrack units. 5 Grotesques in a Raider would also net you 5 liquifiers but then you risk losing a 45-point model when the transport is destroyed. With the 3 Grot, 5 Wrack mixture you can lose regular Wracks to crashes.


Love it!

"drinking liqueur from endangered rain forest flowers cold-distilled over multicolored diamonds while playing croquet on robot elephants using asian swim suit models as living wickets... well, some hobbies are simply more appealing than others." -Sourclams

AesSedai's guide to building a custom glass display case for your figures

Kabal of the Twisting Abyss--Blog Laenea, A Tendril of Hive Fleet Hydra--Blog

Always looking for games in/near Raleigh! 
   
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Spoiler:
 Oaka wrote:
TALOS DURABILITY WITH THE NEW CODEX

Like many others, I was so used to having a 4++ on all my Talos that seeing them change to a 6++ was devastating at first. Clearly inferior, right? After considering several different scenarios and factoring in all the other rules changes to the Talos I now believe that Talos durability has actually been IMPROVED in most cases. The obvious exception is against high damage weapons like melta, but even then it is not as bad as you might think. If you are willing to support your Talos units with a Haemonculus, Cronos, or both they are actually more resilient than before under the proper circumstances. I looked at different versions of the Talos:

1) Old Prophets of Flesh: 3+/4++/6+++
2) New Prophets of Flesh: 3+/6++/5+++ can't be wounded on a 1-3 unless weapon is S8+
4) New Artists of the Flesh: 3+/6++/5+++ -1D

For all calculations I ignored auras and stratagems, but factored in whether it was turn 1 or turn 4 when the invulnerable save increases to 5++. We are actually improved in this area as I will mention later. My final conclusion is that a New Artists of the Flesh Talos is more resilient than an Old Prophets of Flesh Talos. I do want to note that another benefit of the New Prophets of Flesh is that each unit regains 1 lost wound every command phase. That is not factored in to the total damage below, but you can imagine subtracting 1 from each of the New PoF numbers to take this into account if the situation would call for it.

Mortal Wounds: A straight up buff from Old to New. We are now shrugging off twice as many MWs with a 5+++ rather than the old 6+++. One of the main things I noticed reading through our new codex is just how many MWs can be inflicted by our units, so being better against MWs is nothing to dismiss.

AP0 or AP-1 weapons: A straight up buff from Old to New. If the Talos is making 3+ or 4+ armor saves, then it is absolutely more resilient now, thanks to the improved Feel no Pain save. Against weapons with a AP-1 that deal D2, like the heavy bolter, they basically tickle a New Artists of the Flesh Talos. With 9th edition becoming more killy, a lot of these smaller weapons are being bumped up to D2 so -1D has more benefits than against just heavy weapons with a high damage characteristic.

10 Hits with a Heavy Bolter (S5, AP-1, D2)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF: 2.3 damage caused
New AotF: 1.2 damage caused

AP-2 weapons: These weapons would have normally been saved with a 4++ invulnerable with Old PoF, and now require a 5+ armor save. For D1 weapons, it is a slight nerf.

10 Hits with a Lightning Claw (S4 reroll wounds, AP-2, D1)
Old PoF: 2.4 damage caused
New PoF: 2.5 damage caused
New AotF: 2.5 damage caused

However, if you look at multi-damage AP-2 weapons, there is a significant buff to New AotF.

10 Hits with a Thunder Hammer (S8, AP-2, D3)
Old PoF: 8.4 damage caused
New PoF: 8.9 damage caused
New AotF: 6.0 damage caused

AP-3 weapons S6 or less: This category had one of the largest nerfs with the new rules, as the old invulnerable save absorbed more of the wounds. What is important to note, though, is once a Talos gets to turn 4 it is about as resilient as the Old PoF version against D1 weapons, only taking a fraction more damage.

10 Hits with a Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D1)
Old PoF: 1.4 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

Once you look at multi-damage weapons the New AotF significantly pulls ahead.

10 Hits with a Bladeguard Master-crafted Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D2)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

These results suggest that AotF Talos will be able to tank elite melee units like Bladeguard and Incubi much better than the old PoF ever could.

S7 Weapons: I did want to do a comparison in that rare circumstance where a T6 PoF Talos can use its obsession rule against a S7 weapon, which cannot wound it on a 1-3. This entire interaction can be avoided with a +1T Haemonculus buff but it was worth looking at.

10 Hits with a Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D1)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 2.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

Here is the only case where a New AotF Talos performs much worse. BUT, against multi-damage weapons, the AotF Talos pulls ahead once again.

10 Hits with a Supercharge Assault Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D2)
Old PoF: 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

Talos Killing Weapons: The biggest concern with the Talos changes, let's look at those weapons you always see deployed across from you and shooting your Talos.

10 Hits with a half-range Melta (S8, AP-4, Dd6+2)
Old PoF: 15.3 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 20.4 damage caused (Ouch!)
New PoF (turn4): 16.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 16.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 13.4 damage caused

10 Hits with a Dark Lance (S8, AP-4, Dd3+3)
Old PoF: 13.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 18.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 11.9 damage caused

So if you're using PoF Talos with the new codex, you are definitely going to see your models die faster in the first turn as they are taking 33% more damage. However, if you go with AotF, there is only a 7-10% increase in damage taken in the first turn. A turn 4 AotF Talos is more durable than ever.

Discussion: While the reduction in Talos durability is noticeable with Prophets of Flesh, taking the Artists of the Flesh obsession alleviates the nerf against melta weapons and other high damage attacks while making the Talos tougher against almost all other weapons. In fact, an AotF Talos benefitting from turn 4 Power from Pain is the most durable we have ever been. This is why I think the new Pain Syphon stratagem is a gem. If you can whittle down an enemy unit and finish it off with Talos ranged weapons on turn 1 or 2, while a Cronos is within 6" of the Talos unit, you will benefit from Power from Pain as if it is turn 5 for the entire game. This is huge, and not too difficult to achieve.

We also have a new coven relic that cancels auras on a unit for one battle round. Using this at the right time will certainly make a unit of Talos survive where an old Prophets of Flesh unit would not, and is a fantastic tool for us to have once per game. Offensively, the Talos received many global buffs and an Artists of the Flesh Talos gets to benefit from all of these.

So, why does this seem so good? The answer is the obsession really only helps coven monsters. Artists of the Flesh no longer affects vehicles, and Wracks gain much less from it than if they are Prophets of Flesh. If you are going light on Wracks and vehicles, though, and bringing lots of Talos and Cronos (like me), I conclude that Artists of the Flesh will result in an army that is not only better at doing damage than the old PoF version, but more durable as well.


I love this breakdown because it demonstrates how nice and tightly balanced so many of the new subfaction choices are. AoTF gives you defensive benefits on many models, PoF gives you defensive benefits applying to Wracks and Vehicles as well as a few offensive benefits like Sins Writ Large and Urien's strength aura. There's no one best choice, it depends on how you want to build and use the army.

The internal balance in this book, on the whole, is EXTREMELY good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
Possibly pedantic - but I don't think Splinterblades belongs in the bottom tier of custom Covens. An additional hit on 6s adds up. Mathematically I think its around the same as +1 AP versus 3+ save targets. Worse versus 2+ or 1+, but better against 4+ and up. For pure Wracktide pairing it with 6s causing automatic wounds would also be okay, although it has Skornegy with Blade Artists. So reroll charges is probably preferable. Or perhaps fancy your chances eating units to get the regeneration, if the meta is leaning towards MSU.


You're probably right, I guess I placed it lower because I figured in most circumstances you'd take either masters of mutagens (lots of wracks) or experimental creations (lots of Talos who you want to bump to S8 scalpels)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sidebar: can we please remove the incorrect apostrophe from the title of the thread? If this goes for 90 pages it's going to be slightly bugging me every time like the fact that 'ascension' is spelled wrong in the title of the GSC tactica thread.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/24 12:31:03


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Maybe that apostrophe is his way of reaping power from your pain

PS Thanks, now I can't unsee either of those titles either, so he's gaining power by the minute


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Oaka wrote:
There is a particular Dark Technomancer loadout that I hope will gain traction.

3 Grotesques w/ 3 liquifiers
5 Wracks w/ 2 liquifiers

This all fits snugly into the new 11-capacity Raider, but gives you 5 liquifiers instead of 4 if you use two Wrack units. 5 Grotesques in a Raider would also net you 5 liquifiers but then you risk losing a 45-point model when the transport is destroyed. With the 3 Grot, 5 Wrack mixture you can lose regular Wracks to crashes.


That is a cool load out I hadn't considered. For me though, I am REALLY struggling with the fact that grotesque need to drop the cleaver for a liquifier. It was less of an issue when they were damage 1 but now it's kind of rough. I think outside of dark tech you probably don't bother (maybe take 1 per 3 grots) but in Dark Tech it is a real debate because the liquifier is basically the exact same as the melee attack, only from range which would normally give it the edge but in 9th I feel like charging objectives is really important for playing the mission and I have never been impressed with flesh gauntlets.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/24 13:51:13


   
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well, let's break it down. You get 5 wracks and 2 liquifiers for 60pts, and you get 1 grotesque and 1 liquifier for 45pts. So 1.33 liquifier-armed grotesques for 5 wracks 2 liquifiers.

That's 11 S3 Ap- D1 poison 4+ melee attacks and 7 S4 AP-2 D1 autohits vs 5.32 S6 AP- D1 melee attacks with MWs on 6 to wound and 4.655 S4 Ap-2 D1 autohits.

Defensively, the grotesques are 5.32 T5 wounds versus 5 T4 wounds with the grots being a W4 target and the wracks being a W1 target.

Looking at dark technomancers, I think it's tough to say the grots have an edge. Yes, you can squeak an extra liquifier into the raider compared to 2x5 grots, but you're paying an extra 75pts to do it, which seems...steep.

I think if you want grotesques in a raider you definitely want to be looking at either Prophets of Flesh or Artists of Flesh, where those defensive advantages over wracks are going to come into play.

And I think if you're doing that...you don't want to be using them for liquifiers. You want to be using them as the covens turn 2 mounted assault unit, with cleavers so they can mulch pretty much any target they want to (using butchers craft to do so if they run up against anything they wound on 5s).

In my eyes, covens have 3 different offensive approaches:

1) roll up in a transport, shoot liquifiers out of it, don't get out. The king setup for this in my eyes is definitely the dark tech venom with 2 liquifiers for killing MEQ, or the dark creed raider with PGL and Grisly Trophies and 2x5 wracks 4 liquifiers for anti-chaff.

2) attempt to hide a transport containing cleaver grotesques and a haemonculus turn 1, pop them out and charge turn 2.

I think there's multiple ways to set this strategy up. There's the 'maximise offense' type of setup where you go either custom coven or coven of 12 with the haemie armed with the blade, there's the 'minimize the chance the opponent can stop it' where you go for PoF with the Vexator and you preclude Overwatch and give them the ability to make a counter-charger fight last, and there's the "turn them into a brick in the middle of my opponent's lines" where you go for Artists of the Flesh and bring along a Cronos to use the strat to pop them up to turn 5 PFP so they're a monster of a unit with T6, 5++, 5+FNP, morale immunity, and -1 damage.

3) brick units with defensive buffs that attempt to survive the fire they're going to take as they roll in. Stuff like Artists of Flesh Talos, Obsessive Collectors Wracks, PoF wracks I think would be best for this. I'd be curious to break down how Artists of Flesh grots might fare in this role, but I suspect the fact that Talos can have guns, and also can be buffed from various sources so those guns are stronger, gives them a solid edge in that arena.

Hell, Dark Creed taloi in a Realspace Raid can get rerolls of 1 to hit and to wound and +1 to hit. I am looking forward to trying that out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
damn actually thinking about that Dark Creed talos can get fairly tasty. outside of Necrons, basically every vehicle in the game is going to have a lower Leadership than a Dark Creed talos that's in melee range, so you could have perma-+1 to hit with Gauntlet talos. And if you had a few Grisly Trophies transports running around you could even get the +1 to hit off on LD10 necrons.

That's pretty awesome..the only question is whether arming them with the twin liquifiers is flying too close to the sun. Ichor Injector, Liquifiers, or Cleaver for the second arm? Obviously we're going for Heat Lances on the tails, that's for sure, 115 pts for 2 super-buffed up heat lances seems pretty friggin great.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/24 14:33:01


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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the_scotsman wrote:


Court of the Archon: now a unit again rather than 4 different units. Sslyth now T3 down from T5, Sslyth blade now AP-2 from AP-1, if the unit contains Sslyth Archons within 3" cant be targeted. urghul talons now AP-1, now 5+FNP instead of 5++ (with PFP as well). Lhamean now gives an aura of 6 to hit with poison weapons automatically wound to archons and Trueborn. Medusa eyeburst now 12" range, pistol, and hits automatically. now also Core! Also, you can take a hilarious number of these suckers. Do you want 16 W3 snakeboiz? Maybe 10 in a raider with an archon so your opponent gets sick of these god damn snakes in this god damn plane?

Analysis: At 18ppm, Sslyths do seem to have a reason to be compared to Incubi, but the urghul definitely seems to be pretty much redundant with those around. Sslyths though...a Shardcarbine, 3 S5 Ap-2 D1 attacks, 3 wounds with 6++ 5+FNP, and the special bodyguard thing, that's pretty fun especially in poisoned tongue. Sadly a lhamean can't buff her own unit. A venom full of Medusae does also seem to have potential - 12" range autohitting AP-2 flamers for 22pts isn't bad. Lhameans and Urghuls seem pretty bad though.

.


Each type of model in the court is 0-4, so you can only have max 4 snakes.

Urghuls are the cheapest models in the court, so I wonder if they are worth taking for ablative wounds... Seem a little pricey still. 4 Medusa's in a venom seems fun, and in that situation, 2 Urghuls could be worth it. I'm also tempted to say 4 urghuls are better than 6 wyches to go in a venom...

Can lhamean only buff trueborn an archons? That's a bit of a missed opportunity. They might have been interesting supporting a couple of units of kabalites, although it might be a pain with transports.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/24 14:55:58


 
   
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MrPieChee wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


Court of the Archon: now a unit again rather than 4 different units. Sslyth now T3 down from T5, Sslyth blade now AP-2 from AP-1, if the unit contains Sslyth Archons within 3" cant be targeted. urghul talons now AP-1, now 5+FNP instead of 5++ (with PFP as well). Lhamean now gives an aura of 6 to hit with poison weapons automatically wound to archons and Trueborn. Medusa eyeburst now 12" range, pistol, and hits automatically. now also Core! Also, you can take a hilarious number of these suckers. Do you want 16 W3 snakeboiz? Maybe 10 in a raider with an archon so your opponent gets sick of these god damn snakes in this god damn plane?

Analysis: At 18ppm, Sslyths do seem to have a reason to be compared to Incubi, but the urghul definitely seems to be pretty much redundant with those around. Sslyths though...a Shardcarbine, 3 S5 Ap-2 D1 attacks, 3 wounds with 6++ 5+FNP, and the special bodyguard thing, that's pretty fun especially in poisoned tongue. Sadly a lhamean can't buff her own unit. A venom full of Medusae does also seem to have potential - 12" range autohitting AP-2 flamers for 22pts isn't bad. Lhameans and Urghuls seem pretty bad though.

.


Each type of model in the court is 0-4, so you can only have max 4 snakes.

Urghuls are the cheapest models in the court, so I wonder if they are worth taking for ablative wounds... Seem a little pricey still. 4 Medusa's in a venom seems fun, and in that situation, 2 Urghuls could be worth it. I'm also tempted to say 4 urghuls are better than 6 wyches to go in a venom...

Can lhamean only buff trueborn an archons? That's a bit of a missed opportunity. They might have been interesting supporting a couple of units of kabalites, although it might be a pain with transports.


^Ah, good catch. I will edit that part out, I missed the interaction of the model lists and the unit size cap. Still, very strange to see the overall unit cap at 16 rather than going for the IG command squad style. 4 urghul and 4 sslyth would still be quite a powerful unit to slip into a raider with an archon. Kind of a much less trivial to remove version of Incubi, given that the squad has 24 T3 wounds with an invuln and a FNP. I can see that really throwing some opponents for a loop. What do you use to attack it? low strength D1 weapons are gonna take forever, multidamage weapons are going to run into the 'W3 awkwardness' compounded by the FNP. Gies your opponent an intersting puzzle box to solve vs the completely obvious "OK, i'll just shoot them with anything, it's a suicide unit that will evaporate instantly" that is Incubi.

way less good at killing things though, for sure.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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the_scotsman wrote:

3) brick units with defensive buffs that attempt to survive the fire they're going to take as they roll in. Stuff like Artists of Flesh Talos, Obsessive Collectors Wracks, PoF wracks I think would be best for this. I'd be curious to break down how Artists of Flesh grots might fare in this role, but I suspect the fact that Talos can have guns, and also can be buffed from various sources so those guns are stronger, gives them a solid edge in that arena.


I am genuinely concerned about Grots in this role, now. They are taking a lot more wounds from basic weapons, I really wish they had a 4+ or even 5+ armor save to help mitigate the loss of the invulnerable.

Final comparison for the evening- Grotesques. I looked at Old PoF, New PoF, and New AotF. The changes were pretty brutal to these guys because they do not have an armor save to fall back on like the Talos does, so lighter weapons really start taking wounds off. Unlike the Talos, an AP-1 weapon behaves just like an AP-4 weapon (time to consider dense cover for your Grots in the early game). Turn 4 PfP rescues Grotesques closer to the old PoF version, but they will go down quick before that and it is much harder to use the Cronos stratagem for them as they will likely have to already be in combat before they can kill an enemy unit. The new PoF obsession ability does kick in with S6 and S7 weapons against T5 Grotesques, but to be honest the changes are so devastating when you look at multi damage weapons that I think you have to choose AoTF just to mitigate it. Just like the Talos, a New AoTF Grotesque is more resilient than the Old PoF Grotesque against multi damage attacks in most cases.

10 Hits with a Bolt Rifle (S4, AP-1, D1)
Old PoF: 1.4 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

This is a 29% damage increase suffered by S4 D1 weapons on turns 1-3!

10 Hits with a Heavy Bolter (S5, AP-1, D2)
Old PoF: 4.2 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 2.2 damage caused

10 Hits with a Lightning Claw (S4 reroll wounds, AP-2, D1)
Old PoF: 2.3 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn1): 3.1 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn4): 2.5 damage caused

35% damage increase from lightning claws in turns 1-3!

10 Hits with a Thunder Hammer (S8, AP-2, D3)
Old PoF: 8.4 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 11.1 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 8.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 7.4 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 5.9 damage caused

10 Hits with a Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D1)
Old PoF: 2.1 damage caused
New (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New (turn4): 2.2 damage caused

33% damage increase suffered by S5 D1 weapons on turns 1-3! The +1T aura is vital for Grots.

10 Hits with a Bladeguard Master-crafted Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D2)
Old PoF: 4.2 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 2.2 damage caused

Here is where the superiority of the New AotF Grotesque becomes apparent, but to be fair let's look at a weapon that favors the New PoF Grotesque.

10 Hits with a Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D1)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 2.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

As soon as you increase the weapon D, though, AotF gets much better again.

10 Hits with an Autocannon (S7, AP-1, D2)
Old PoF: 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

And finally, the big weapons. Grotesques actually take damage from these exactly the same as a Talos.

10 Hits with a half-range Melta (S8, AP-4, Dd6+2)
Old PoF: 15.3 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 20.4 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 16.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 16.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 13.4 damage caused

10 Hits with a Dark Lance (S8, AP-4, Dd3+3)
Old PoF: 13.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 18.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 11.9 damage caused

So there you have it, New AotF Grotesques are superior to Old PoF Grotesques against all D2 or greater weapons until you start hitting D5. D1 weapons will now be dealing around 33% more damage, though, so make sure you have a Haemonculus buffing Grotesques, it is much more important than buffing the Talos. You will also want to keep your Grotesques in dense cover for the -1 to hit if possible until they can advance and charge. If you were running minimum units of 3 Grotesques, you should consider bumping it up to 4 to compensate. New PoF Grotesques are only ever better against S6-7 D1 attacks, and that becomes only S7 weapons with the Haemonculus buff. If your Grotesques make it to turn 4, the old durability will be greatly restored to ~10% more damage taken, but that is a tall ask and it is very difficult to give them the Cronos stratagem buff on turn 1.

   
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Yeah, I think Grots in the role of brick are solidly outperformed by both wracks and taloi now.

Also worth noting that a Talos brick is probably fast enough to be in your opponent's lines turn 2 if you don't mind giving up shooting their heavy weapons thanks to army-wide advance and charge, and the new mission structure means if your opponent forces them to cross the whole of no man's land to get to them, you're set up for an extremely easy objective win.

more healing, more synergistic defensive traits in the -1 damage trait, and vastly buffed ranged weaponry has me absolutely loving taloi. I guess my question on grots is: why wouldn't you just throw them in a transport? It seems like an easy fix, are you just concerned that if you don't have them in the role of designated die-er, your opponent will target more vulnerable segments of your list?

My ony concern with grots is the huge preponderance of melta weaponry in the meta right now. but they do have 3 solid abilities that reduce the effectiveness of that. A wall of wracks doesnt give a single rat's ass about any melta weapons, but then they just wont be targeted with them, those meltas will go into your raiders or your flyers or your ravagers or whatever. So unless youre committed to a totally melta-proof list setup with nothing over W3, I think it's better to have a unit out there who will take a bloody chunk out of you if you don't direect meltas their way, and who isn't particularly bad at surviving meltas either.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in es
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I want my book already!

Currently magnetizing my Talos and Boats, ans I'm wondering, can we exchange both Talos arms? Or it has to equip at least a Cleaver?

Thanks for all the info, really helpful guys.

The Bloody Sails
 
   
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 Denegaar wrote:
I want my book already!

Currently magnetizing my Talos and Boats, ans I'm wondering, can we exchange both Talos arms? Or it has to equip at least a Cleaver?

Thanks for all the info, really helpful guys.


You can equip the talos exactly according to the kit - so one arm can either be a cleaver, or an injector, or a twin liquifier, and the other arm can be a cleaver, or a gauntlet, or a flail.

...Which I would find really irritating, but it does at least make for more interesting choices than if you could go for flail/gauntlet which would be superior to any combination of cleaver/injector against almost everything.

The way it's set up now, you do actually have decisions to make in terms of what targets you want your talos to prioritize. I can definitely see the benefits of:

-Double cleaver - best vs W2 meq
-Gauntlet+Injector - best vs tanks, can output some mortal wounds vs targets that are awkward to swing a D3 weapon at
-Gauntlet+Liquifier - best all round but pricy
-Flail+Liquifier - infantry murderizer
-Flail+Cleaver - give up one marine killing attack to become less easy to tarpit with chaff

Gauntlet+Cleaver and Cleaver+Injector are the awkward loadouts IMO.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
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And ninjaed by 30 seconds.

See above.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/24 17:15:55


 
   
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Talos weapon options were the third and final thing I took a look at (can you tell I was desperate to know what happened to my Talos/Grotesque list with the new codex?)

I have gone ahead and taken a look at weapons options to pair with your beefy new Artists of the Flesh Talos. I used to run Macro Scalpel/Chain Flails but I know many went dual scalpels in a 3+ armor meta. Chain Flails have now lost reroll wounds so are an easy option for me to drop. The Talos Ichor Injector reads like a wonderful choice, and the numbers back that up, as it causes 1.3 wounds against any target without a FnP save. The change to the Talos Gauntlet, now doing a straight 3 damage, was also of great interest to me. I didn't include the chances of Blade Artists to proc, so consider that another extra bonus with the new weapon setups compared to the old Talos.

Talos against (T4 3+)
Dual Scalpels: 3.6 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 3.7 damage
Gauntlet: 5.2 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 5.5 damage

Talos against (T4 2+/4++ +1 to armor saves)
Dual Scalpels: 1.8 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 2.5 damage
Gauntlet: 3.1 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 3.8 damage

Talos against (T5 3+)
Dual Scalpels: 3.6 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 3.7 damage
Gauntlet: 4.2 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 4.7 damage

Talos against (T8 3+/4++)
Dual Scalpels: 1.3 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 2.2 damage
Gauntlet: 1.9 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 2.8 damage

When you start getting to the big tough stuff in the game the MWs from the ichor injector attack alone do as much damage as six attacks with macro scalpels! I think the pattern is pretty obvious here, equip a Talos with a Gauntlet/Injector always.

For ranged weapon choices, Goonhammer did a great analysis that put Heat Lances as the superior weapon option. If you are trying to kill a unit with ranged attacks to get that Cronos stratagem to go off, that would be the obvious choice. I offer a different option, and bear with me here, Stinger Pods! It is the only ranged weapon that didn't change to Heavy, so is the only gun that can be fired after the Talos advances, which you will be doing on turn 2 to get a reliable charge off. A main weakness to the gauntlet/injector Talos is being bogged down in combat by hordes, and there is no better way to deal with that than 2D6 S5 shots into the unit while you are in combat. More likely, though, you will be dealing with a marine meta and the heat lances will be the clear choice.

   
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Are you accounting for the fact that you lose wound efficiency against W2 targets with a D3 weapon? My math shows the gauntlet+injector very slightly ahead assuming average rolling, but there is a chance of rolling a 1 on your mortal wound die, which is essentially the same as a miss vs a w2 target.

Regardless, Gauntlet+injector is in fact a slight upgrade against basically every target (except for a very slight negative vs GEQ, which neither is particularly great at dealing with) but, I mean, it does cost more points.

If you start looking at the ways to get +1 strength, things get a bit more balanced out, because S8 on cleavers is a significant ding but S9 on the gauntlet doens't matter at all.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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You are right that each setup will probably kill two marines and the gauntlet is 5 points more, but that's a small cost in my mind for the potential against 3W models. You can probably consider it meta-dependent, and my two most common opponents use a lot of Eradicators/Blade Guard and Canoptek Wraiths, so I'm champing at the bit to try these new weapon configurations out on them.

   
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I'm curious how the Dark Creed +1 to hit shifts those numbers (if at all).
   
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Denison, Iowa

I have my old 3rd ed DE on standby. I know it's not the most efficient, but I like the idea of a Succubus+wyches in one Raider, Archon+trueborn in second Raider, Court in third raider, and Drazar + incubi in a fourth Raider. Speed up and alpha strike.
   
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pontiac, michigan; usa

I'm curious about the rest of the unit and weapon profile leaks. We got a lot but I feel like there are parts either they or I missed.

Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
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Just posting to say thanks for the math run down on the scourge weapons scotsman. I appreciate the effort given for showing the differences in capability, even hitting on 4's. Cheers.
   
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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm curious about the rest of the unit and weapon profile leaks. We got a lot but I feel like there are parts either they or I missed.


There are whole-rules scans floating around. I'm not sure what the policy is around these parts on linking to stuff like that but I will say that the TTS crowd often need codex scans. Their Discord has further info.
   
 
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