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Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Cross iconografy, when did that creep in? Many of the Indomitus marines have crosses on the arm guards. Blade guards and the justidicar has it dangling from chains.

That is new. Where are the imperial eagle, or local chapter icon? Christianity or anyone assosiated with crosses is wiped out by 40k timeline. There is even a small short story where the emperor talks to the last cristian. Asuming they even know what a cross is, it would be considered heresy.

While the models are cool I am thinking they could have changed it with something more in line with the lore. Seems like a design slip. Or is there some information I am missing?

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

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 Niiai wrote:
Cross iconografy, when did that creep in? Many of the Indomitus marines have crosses on the arm guards. Blade guards and the justidicar has it dangling from chains.

That is new. Where are the imperial eagle, or local chapter icon? Christianity or anyone assosiated with crosses is wiped out by 40k timeline. There is even a small short story where the emperor talks to the last cristian. Asuming they even know what a cross is, it would be considered heresy.

While the models are cool I am thinking they could have changed it with something more in line with the lore. Seems like a design slip. Or is there some information I am missing?


Jes explains in White Dwarf 456 that they are a campaign badge similar to the Crux Terminatus but with a blade extending down from the bottom.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
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Some of the early Terminator models have that extended-arm crux terminatus. The sergeant and some of the lower legs iirc.

Not fond of more cross iconography seeping in though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/16 00:22:38


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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I don't know, I like the cross slipping in more but it just means they will try and trademark that now too, greedy GW buggers.

I'd have to say probably because if features through history in military badges or medals and it's a clean visual that for good or bad invokes feelings of crusading knights, which is a visual or feeling they have for marines.
   
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Works for the Black Templar imo, but on the traditionally romanesque Ultramarines? When it's incorporated on the model sculpt itself I'm less forgiving.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
Works for the Black Templar imo, but on the traditionally romanesque Ultramarines? When it's incorporated on the model sculpt itself I'm less forgiving.


Even then, it's a pretty significantly different cross to the St. John's cross the Templars typically use. I've toyed with throwing in a few extra flourishes with my templars - a cross of Lorraine, or a Russian Orthodox cross - but I'm still torn, as it feels a little too much like that would visually dilute the theme too much as it is.

It feels a bit like an effort to add extra branding and iconography to an already pretty cluttered roster. Whilst on some of the more conventional chapters it isn't too egregious, I feel like with Space Wolves, for example, it really sticks out as against their aesthetic grain in a pretty big way. Kinda wish they'd just left it out, but as someone who thinks Primaris Marines are wack anyway, I guess I'm not the demographic for this regardless.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
Works for the Black Templar imo, but on the traditionally romanesque Ultramarines? When it's incorporated on the model sculpt itself I'm less forgiving.


Yes but that is another product of condensing the marines into one book. Now we can be delighted as the visuals all get blurred into generic models for everyone. It's a brave new world of marine designs. I can't wait to see all the chapters have visual cues in generic models. This ain't your mommas Marines.
   
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Someone thought that bladed cross was really cool and started sticking it on everything. It doesn't match very well with a lot of chapter iconography.
   
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As someone who doesn't play marines, can you provide examples? I have not noticed.
   
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But it does with some and that is the point I think. As long as the rules are good or the models otherwise look good, people will get them for their marines because all chapters can. Doesn't matter if it doesn't fit their look.

With the condensing of marines all GW did was do what they wanted to really do all along. Sell you the same models, in different colors for all the marines while also still selling the same amount of books, just calling one a codex and another a supplement.
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
As someone who doesn't play marines, can you provide examples? I have not noticed.


Look at the bladeguard kit. A big one is on the shield, smaller ones are on the arms of each model.
   
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It's just a variation on the Crux Terminatus, which has been showing up on Marine veterans for 20 years or so now.

 
   
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Looking at the Bladeguard kit, it looks like the aim is the "standard" Crux over the top of either a sword blade or a scabbard, as others have stated.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

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Well, looks like that would be the crux of the issue then.
   
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It's nothing new in 40K the grim dark icons abound rather it be the hospitaler cross (black templar) or the fleur de lis for the sisters of battle. the imperium aside from the emperor himself has long forgotten the origins of many of it's symbols (and technology) history and the like and has re-purposed them for other uses. aside from the odd reference to the old religions found in the HH novels there is no "christianity" in the 40K setting. their is only the officially sanctioned ecclisiarchy and the worship of the god emperor. and prior to the heresy the imperial truth devoid of religion.



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 aphyon wrote:
the imperium aside from the emperor himself has long forgotten the origins of many of it's symbols

Well, they're not the only ones. People here seem not to know the origins of the cross symbol either. It predates Christianity by tens of thousands of years, being found as far back as the Late Stone Age carved into the walls of caves in parts of Europe. Christians actually took until the 2nd century AD to start using it as a symbol of their faith.

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 Duskweaver wrote:
 aphyon wrote:
the imperium aside from the emperor himself has long forgotten the origins of many of it's symbols

Well, they're not the only ones. People here seem not to know the origins of the cross symbol either. It predates Christianity by tens of thousands of years, being found as far back as the Late Stone Age carved into the walls of caves in parts of Europe. Christians actually took until the 2nd century AD to start using it as a symbol of their faith.


True, one could get into a discussion on the original greek text of the new testament stauros (stake or pole) of which became interchangeable with the common roman term for cross "crux" which broadly used 4 different types some with cross beams and some that were simple upright poles (as implied by the term stauros). . or the possible origins as the symbol for the babylonian god Tammuz (who also is said to have died and been resurrected).

I really don't think there is any real world religious intent behind what GW did other than to make it look gothic and midevil in a grim dark scifi setting where the galaxy spanning empire has become a theocratic imperial feudal state.



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This is 40k - it's gothic science fantasy, and that's the "gothic" of "gothic cathedral". It's not surprising they would include some form of cross in Imperial iconography, and as has been mentioned they've been doing so for quite some time now.


 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well, looks like that would be the crux of the issue then.

You! Stop that!

   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
As someone who doesn't play marines, can you provide examples? I have not noticed.

 insaniak wrote:
It's just a variation on the Crux Terminatus, which has been showing up on Marine veterans for 20 years or so now.
It's been there for sure, but it's use has become more extensive and the use on the Bladeguard Veterans in particular feels more strongly like a crucifix because of the prominence of display and "Sword and Board" aspect of the model. Imo it looks much less like a crucifix when the non-elongated Crux Terminatus is more common on a model. When even the belt "crux" is the proportions of the crucifix I find it more immersion-breaking and think of it more as a cross. In particular it's reminicient of a crucifix jammed in a belt, which I've seen somewhere. In past designs the "long-crux" was rare in comparison to the traditional square one. On some of the RT Terminators they have an evenly spaced (triangular) 3-arm crux, actually.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/16 22:52:34


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Some more Jes Goodwin quotes from the White Dwarf 456 issue where he discusses the Indomitus Marines:

"Everyone has an idea of what they think a Space Marine should look like..."

"Space Marine are the archetypical knights in space, but the models in the Indomitus box take that a step further, making them more like holy medieval knights on crusade (in space)."

"The shields obviously go a long way towards their appearance. They're based on that classic Maltese cross shape (the same shape used on the Crux Terminatus), but elongated at the bottom like a tower shield to protect the bearer head to foot."

I think the design of Space Marines has always had that Space Knights feel - heck, they have Fortress Monasteries. The design team reinforced the crusading knight theme. The Crux Terminatus had been around the whole time.

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^For sure. The Bladeguard is just a bit (a lot) too on the nose for my taste.

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I always thought that cross symbol had something to do with the Indomitus Crusade, hence why it appears on so many Primaris Marines.

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 ZergSmasher wrote:
I always thought that cross symbol had something to do with the Indomitus Crusade, hence why it appears on so many Primaris Marines.


In the same article Jes Goodwin explains that the symbol on all the Indomitus Marines's vambrance is a Crusade Badge based on a Crux Terminatus but with a blade extending down from the bottom.

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 waefre_1 wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well, looks like that would be the crux of the issue then.

You! Stop that!


What Heresy is going on here, Imperial citizen?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly though, various crosses have been a part of Warhammer for a very long time. I can't remember specifically which, but I recall long seeing crosses built into various parts on Imperial factions. Especially Black Templars. They're covered in crosses, though mostly the Iron Cross, which is the square looking one you see on many SM models. The old SS for Terminators is an Iron Cross shape. Why is it strange that the new Bladeguard Veterans shield is also in the shape of a cross, even if the bottom is extended to evoke a sword blade shape?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 01:39:16


 
   
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Have to say, catholic imagery (history of the symbol of the cross aside) in WH40k generally wasn't a particular concern of anyone probably ever considering the whole game is dripping with it and is a foundational aspect of the aesthetic. Seems like a non-issue.


 
   
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 SergentSilver wrote:

Honestly though, various crosses have been a part of Warhammer for a very long time. I can't remember specifically which, but I recall long seeing crosses built into various parts on Imperial factions.


I think Dark Angels have had some, but most often the crosses have been suggestive/obscured/ersatz. Almost all the banner poles are a cross. Few of them are a pennant or flag vs shaft, cross bar, topper in a cross shape. The sword in the DA chapter symbol itself. The Inquisition symbol. The keys on the Libby with a Cherubim. Many of the Iron Halo'esqe things like the halo on the Black Knight/Ravenwing Champion which is both halo and cross like. Of course nothing quite approaches the level of Christian iconography that is the Blade Guard Veteran Ancient. Sword Cross on the belt, on the wrist, and of course, the crucified guy on the cross banner pole under the multi-layer halo.

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Bergen

The elongated crox terminates is less obviously a cross then the new crosses. (One of the SW Terminators come with one and I never thought of it as a cross until now.) The current SM terminator should pad, and some of the SW bits are the 'round cross'. That looks more like a sumbol that is naturally ocurring.

However the blade guards more look like somebody said 'let us make some Templars.' And it is very on the nose. They have crosses:
On arm guards
A big one on the shield
On the hilt on the sword
From a crusifix hanging from the belt.

Further the eradicators and justicar continue this trend. With the arm guards on the eradicators, and the justicar is dangling a crusifix from his hands.

While realising that I am essentially functioning as a gatekeeper of sorts in my argument complaing about change, I can not help but feel this is a step in the wrong direction. Warhammer have always had this wonderful way to take knight/Templar iconografy and made it in the 40K image by echancging the icons with the eagle, or other imperial motives. Their spaceships are churches in space. They maintain the same aritectual features, yet no crosses.

This is what makes the crusifix in particar so weard as a trinket. It has no 'function'. Imperial citisents have plenty of eagles dangling from chains. This would have the same function. Some other sunfactions have other iconografy. GSC have their symbols, admech has the skull, SW have Viking themed once, DA have swords, BA drops or wings. Sisters of battle have many symbols, none of them Christian and they have Priests and saints.

Inside the 40K universe, if the manufacturers of the cross/crusifix knew what it was it would be heresy. If they do not know it is just an anesthetic symbol, and why are the blade guards and justicar having that trinket for good luck? Why not a recognized 40K symbol?

It just feels like inspirational symbolism from our universe crept into 40k by way of bad design as shorthand for making a 'Templar' like model. (I realisme that BT do have crosses, but that is a symbol they chose, nut unlike SW, Da or BA have chosen other symbols.)

Or alternatively, is there a hidden heretical fraction within the SM that secretly worship Christianity? I do not think this is what they are suggesting with these symbols.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

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They're likely phasing out the imperial aquila (if they are at all) because people keep associating the eagle with nazis, the boogeymen of the Twittersphere. I heard the Nottingham taxi drivers refered to GWs headquarters as "the nazi building" because of the aquila they had in front of it.

Also its 39,000 years in the future. The symbol of the crucifix would mean as much to a space marine as a cave painting of a hand does to us.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 12:36:11



 
   
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 Sim-Life wrote:
They're likely phasing out the imperial aquila (if they are at all) because people keep associating the eagle with nazis, the boogeymen of the Twittersphere.
Have they though?

 Sim-Life wrote:
I heard the Nottingham taxi drivers refered to GWs headquarters as "the nazi building" because of the aquila they had in front of it.
It's the "Reichstag", and that story is 20 years old.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
They're likely phasing out the imperial aquila (if they are at all) because people keep associating the eagle with nazis, the boogeymen of the Twittersphere.
Have they though?


Thats why I added the qualifier "if they are at all".


 
   
 
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