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Which one is the more powerful psyker? Who would win the battle?

Well, that entirely depends.

Eldrad is arguably the most dangerous, because his schtick is predicting where and when an Eldar intervention is needed.

Ahriman of course is a Sorceror, which isn’t quite the same as a Psyker. He is definitely potent, but has to bargain with warp entities for much of his shenanigans, and that’s always going to be risky.

Mephistonnis arguably the best All Rounder, being a powerful psyker, and probably the best combatant of the three.

Ahriman is both Psyker and Sorcerer. He still has immense natural psychic capability but his power has been boosted by Tzeentchs patronage and the casting of the Rubrics.

Well, on a meta level, Ahriman would probably win if they had to have a clear-cut victor. Ahriman is more or less the face of his faction (second maybe to Magnus) and has a lot of interesting ongoing stories. In comparison, Mephiston is a neat point of interest for his faction, but like, the Blood Angels would still be Blood Angels without him. Not sure the same is true of the Thousand Sons if you take away Ahriman and his quest to restore the rubricae.

And then you've got Eldrad who probably loses by default because that's what happens when eldar face imperials in stories. But also he's more of a supporting character in other named characters' stories rather than the star of his own. Yvraine and the ynnari would keep on going without Eldrad. Ulthwe would still be Ulthwe. The phoenix lords could get cryptic warnings from other farseers instead. Heck, they've canonically killed Eldrad off before.

But on a less meta level, Eldrad's abilities are mostly rooted in foresight. Which is great, but seems to be a bit limited once things come down to a conventional fight. In 40k, it seems that jedi flips can only save you for so long. Mephiston is probably the best blaster/beatstick of the bunch, but Ahriman is good enough at those things to keep up with him, and Ahriman has a wider arsenal of spells and probably more of a knack for improvising spells on the fly. Ahriman is also a foresight specialist, so he can probably keep up with Eldrad well enough to dull Eldrad's advantage somewhat.

So probably Ahriman. He's almost as good as Eldrad/Mephiston in their specialized fields, and he's got more variety/flexibility than both put together. Plus, he'd arguably be a greater loss narratively.

Yeah, I'd edge towards Ahriman here. His baseline power, alongside sorcery and his god's patronage makes it very hard for Eldrad or Mephiston to outmatch him in raw psychic might, and Ahriman himself is pretty good at foresight, so I can't see Mephiston getting into melee without Ahriman letting him do so for a reason, while Eldrad is probably smart enough not to engage him 1v1 and if he does, he knows he's screwed.

Originally I just wanted to listen to other people's opinions and not argue myself, but lol, it seems people here are a little biased towards the Eldar


1) What could be funnier than the phrase that the guy who beat up Abaddon will not survive in a physical battle against Mephiston.

2) When the Sylandri Veilwalker invaded Mephiston's mind to show him a vision of the demons of Khorne, he couldn't do anything. He asked her to release him, and she only did so when she wanted to. And Silandry weaker than Eldrad


3) Ahriman was beaten by a random Shadowseer in Atlas Infernal (although he was weakened by the ritual and lost mostly due to Shadowseer's frenzied onslaught and tripping over the Inquisitor's body)

I think people are forgetting that Eldrad has defeated Abaddon the Despoiler in close combat. Abaddon had to be teleported to safety before the coup de grâce. Yes, Eldrad can be genuine badass whose power goes far beyond foresight. Let's not forget that Eldrad is the greatest psyker of the most psychically powerful race in the setting.

I mean, it's kind of hard to buy that Eldrad's melee prowess is all that impressive. In the lore, he's stiff from slowly turning into crystal (which is probably why he didn't have Battle Focus at one point), and there's nothing in his backstory to suggest he's a particularly talented melee combatant. He has a pretty good bonking stick, but that's about it. And while I know we're talking lore rather than rules, his datasheet reinforces the notion that he's not much of a beatstick.

He is a really fantastic psyker, but he's primarily famous for being especially good at predicting the future. He's probably better at eldritch storming and mind war'ing than your average farseer (due to his staff if nothing else), but psychic powers' lack of real-world grounding means that they largely fall into the realm of author fiat. Will Eldrad's opponent conjure a bigger energy blast or do something unexpected with their psychic powers? Sure they will, if the story is being told from a non-aeldari perspective.

Basically, if Jain Zar can be scared off by some guard officer with a lasgun, Eldrad can probably lose a psychic duel with a named marine.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I mean, it's kind of hard to buy that Eldrad's melee prowess is all that impressive. In the lore, he's stiff from slowly turning into crystal (which is probably why he didn't have Battle Focus at one point), and there's nothing in his backstory to suggest he's a particularly talented melee combatant. He has a pretty good bonking stick, but that's about it. And while I know we're talking lore rather than rules, his datasheet reinforces the notion that he's not much of a beatstick.

He is a really fantastic psyker, but he's primarily famous for being especially good at predicting the future. He's probably better at eldritch storming and mind war'ing than your average farseer (due to his staff if nothing else), but psychic powers' lack of real-world grounding means that they largely fall into the realm of author fiat. Will Eldrad's opponent conjure a bigger energy blast or do something unexpected with their psychic powers? Sure they will, if the story is being told from a non-aeldari perspective.

Basically, if Jain Zar can be scared off by some guard officer with a lasgun, Eldrad can probably lose a psychic duel with a named marine.

It really isn't his melee prowess that his Abaddon near-kill demonstrates, but his exceptional ability to find the Right Path into the future to get the results he wants.

This feels significantly less potent against other psykers, particularly against Ahriman (who is probably on the lookout for exactly those sorts of shenanigans).


I think Mephiston has this. Ahriman has a lot of tricks up his sleeve, but these days Mephiston is essentially channeling a God (or part of a God, or something like that) these days, and his raw potency is hard to deny when he DBZ energy-wave clears a sky of clouds of Tyranids blocking out the sun.

The question is who is the most powerful psyker, so Eldrad definitely. As noted, he's the most potent living psyker of an inherently psychic species. And of course as his forte is foresight, any battle involving him will always happen in his terms.

The main issue in comparison is a Farseer's greatest victories are those where you would never even know they were involved because they involve futures that were prevented from ever happening, rather than actual straight raw force or power in battle.

Ahriman vs. Mephiston while Eldrad sits at home drinking tea, having manipulated those two to fight each other in the first place.

Ahriman if they have prep time. Mephiston if it's a random brawl.

Wyldhunt wrote:


Basically, if Jain Zar can be scared off by some guard officer with a lasgun, Eldrad can probably lose a psychic duel with a named marine.

???

Jain Zar beat up the veteran Night Lords like blind kittens, what's the case with the guardsman?

darkoms wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:


Basically, if Jain Zar can be scared off by some guard officer with a lasgun, Eldrad can probably lose a psychic duel with a named marine.

???

Jain Zar beat up the veteran Night Lords like blind kittens, what's the case with the guardsman?

Jain Zar ended up stuck to the bottom of a Night Lord dreadnought's foot like an old piece of bubblegum.

It really boils down to their different disciplines.

Eldrad, having lived waaaaaay long that both the others, plus the Eldar natural psychic talent? Remember. His age means he grew up during The Fall of the Eldar. What would happen if he ditched all discipline and restraint? Channelled his psychic might to purely destructive means?

We simply do not know. But, we can make the argument of the three, he’s the best placed to know exactly when and where to lose his rag - and the consequences of doing so, or indeed not doing so.

He could, potentially, boil the other two’s brains in their skulls.

Similar arguments can be made for the other two. Granted they arguably don’t have the natural talent of Eldrad, but both still have their own disciplined approach.

Mephiston could, potentially, relapse into The Black Rage. Magnus could throw caution to the wind in his daemonic dealings. If they felt the end justified the means.

Eldrad, having lived waaaaaay long that both the others, plus the Eldar natural psychic talent? Remember. His age means he grew up during The Fall of the Eldar. What would happen if he ditched all discipline and restraint? Channelled his psychic might to purely destructive means?

He'd get his soul devoured. That is absolutely not an option for him.

I don’t know what you’re all getting at, old Zogwort would beat all of them.

Ah, a man of culture.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

darkoms wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:


Basically, if Jain Zar can be scared off by some guard officer with a lasgun, Eldrad can probably lose a psychic duel with a named marine.

???

Jain Zar beat up the veteran Night Lords like blind kittens, what's the case with the guardsman?

Jain Zar ended up stuck to the bottom of a Night Lord dreadnought's foot like an old piece of bubblegum.

Talos had to blow himself up with her so the Dreadnought could finish her off. Fulgrim nearly died from a headshot, that doesn't make him weak


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It really boils down to their different disciplines.

Eldrad, having lived waaaaaay long that both the others, plus the Eldar natural psychic talent? Remember. His age means he grew up during The Fall of the Eldar. What would happen if he ditched all discipline and restraint? Channelled his psychic might to purely destructive means?

We simply do not know. But, we can make the argument of the three, he’s the best placed to know exactly when and where to lose his rag - and the consequences of doing so, or indeed not doing so.

He could, potentially, boil the other two’s brains in their skulls.

Similar arguments can be made for the other two. Granted they arguably don’t have the natural talent of Eldrad, but both still have their own disciplined approach.

Mephiston could, potentially, relapse into The Black Rage. Magnus could throw caution to the wind in his daemonic dealings. If they felt the end justified the means.

He was born after the Fall of the Eldar, as it is explicitly stated in the Jain Zar book. But yes, everyone forgets that Eldrad, like all Eldar psykers, must restrain his power with the help of runes. No one knows how strong the Eldar are on their prime, but one Necron Lord stated that Mephiston is just a shadow of what the Eldar were during the War in Heaven.

Unusual Suspect wrote:
I think Mephiston has this. Ahriman has a lot of tricks up his sleeve, but these days Mephiston is essentially channeling a God (or part of a God, or something like that) these days, and his raw potency is hard to deny when he DBZ energy-wave clears a sky of clouds of Tyranids blocking out the sun.

Oh right. I forgot that happened. You could maybe argue that some of Ahriman's feats also had a tremendous range, but the ones I'm thinking of were side-effects from a climax-of-the-plot ritual and a galaxy-wide paintjob change respectively. Although you could maybe make the argument that Mephiston would struggle to pull out that big a stunt with two finesse-heavy psykers actively shutting down his spells.

Iracundus wrote:The main issue in comparison is a Farseer's greatest victories are those where you would never even know they were involved because they involve futures that were prevented from ever happening, rather than actual straight raw force or power in battle.

Ahriman vs. Mephiston while Eldrad sits at home drinking tea, having manipulated those two to fight each other in the first place.

Agreed. I assumed based on the opening post that galaxy-spanning mind games weren't an option and that we were assuming these guys were being dumped into a room somewhere. If the scenario lets them each start off in their living room, Eldrad probably has the best foresight and could arrange to never be in their vicinity. Although Ahriman could maybe force his hand by threatening Ulthwe or something. Plus, if we assume that they can "win" by arranging to have their competitors end up on a path where they get sucked into a black hole or whatever, I'd say the old eldar-must-lose curse is back on the table. Eldrad's plot armor is thinner than Ahriman's. (Maybe not Mephiston's.)

Gadzilla666 wrote:

darkoms wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:


Basically, if Jain Zar can be scared off by some guard officer with a lasgun, Eldrad can probably lose a psychic duel with a named marine.

???

Jain Zar beat up the veteran Night Lords like blind kittens, what's the case with the guardsman?

Jain Zar ended up stuck to the bottom of a Night Lord dreadnought's foot like an old piece of bubblegum.

Basically, eldar named characters are really, really swingy in how badass they are. Sometimes they're soloing greater daemons; sometimes they're getting one-shot by a dreadnaught. The phoenix lords are especially prone to dying because they have a baked-in way to come back. So whether Eldrad wipes the floor with the marines or just puts up a modest fight before getting killed is up to authorial whims. Just like Mephiston may or may not be up for a DBZ energy blast and Ahriman may or may not suddenly win because willpower or mind palace or whatever.

Ahriman.
Maphiston would not even be in the running. Eldred would put up a fight, but ultimately Ahriman would win, he is the most powerful Psyker alive behind the emperor(if you wanna count him) magnus, and imo stronger then Eldred.
Ahriman on the regular calls up entire legions of daemons and even has some Lords of change on speed dial, because he knows their true names.

If I squeeze every ork into a shed with a weirdboy, they’d be the most powerful psyker hand down.

Eldar would win because I play Craftworld Eldar.

Ahriman would win because I really like the character in the books (Exile, Sorcerer, Unchanged).

Mephiston would never win, cuz he's a marine, don't like marines .

Lorewise (though I haven't read THAT much), Eldrad. Eldar are bad ass psykers, age and looking into the future shenanigans.

MorglumNecksnapper wrote:
Eldar would win because I play Craftworld Eldar.

Ahriman would win because I really like the character in the books (Exile, Sorcerer, Unchanged).

Mephiston would never win, cuz he's a marine, don't like marines .

Lorewise (though I haven't read THAT much), Eldrad. Eldar are bad ass psykers, age and looking into the future shenanigans.

whats funny is, looking into the future is actually Ahrimans special ability as well so if anything they would just be predicting each others predictions and making predictions off of that.

"The only winning move, is to not play."-War Operation Plan Response

Voss wrote:

Eldrad, having lived waaaaaay long that both the others, plus the Eldar natural psychic talent? Remember. His age means he grew up during The Fall of the Eldar. What would happen if he ditched all discipline and restraint? Channelled his psychic might to purely destructive means?

He'd get his soul devoured. That is absolutely not an option for him.

Is it though? Truly?

If Eldrad, with his knowledge of possible futures and the sacrifices required to tip the scales in favour of his species, knows that he can, most likely sacrifice himself to ensure a future victory or indeed victories? Even a final overcoming of She Who Thirsts (fnarr!)? Given Eldrad risked a huge amount, and failed, to awaken Ynnead? That is exactly what make him powerful. He doesn’t know for certain. At all. But, he knows precisely when to roll the dice, twisting fate as best he can, on account he’s seen too many potential futures when he didn’t.

Eldrad for sure. The top psyker of a high-psyker functioning species, plus all the experience etc.

MorglumNecksnapper wrote:
Ahriman would win because I really like the character in the books (Exile, Sorcerer, Unchanged).

Mephiston would never win, cuz he's a marine, don't like marines .

The contradiction here is making my head hurt.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Ahriman.
Maphiston would not even be in the running. Eldred would put up a fight, but ultimately Ahriman would win, he is the most powerful Psyker alive behind the emperor(if you wanna count him) magnus, and imo stronger then Eldred.
Ahriman on the regular calls up entire legions of daemons and even has some Lords of change on speed dial, because he knows their true names.

Proof? Where does it say? The Eldar Codex says that Eldrad destroyed the Titans with his psychic power. In one of the books, Ahriman encounters a Titan, and in order to destroy the Titan, he needs the help of other sorcerers. He was also beaten up by a random Shadow Seer in Atlas Infernal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Voss wrote:

Eldrad, having lived waaaaaay long that both the others, plus the Eldar natural psychic talent? Remember. His age means he grew up during The Fall of the Eldar. What would happen if he ditched all discipline and restraint? Channelled his psychic might to purely destructive means?

He'd get his soul devoured. That is absolutely not an option for him.

Is it though? Truly?

If Eldrad, with his knowledge of possible futures and the sacrifices required to tip the scales in favour of his species, knows that he can, most likely sacrifice himself to ensure a future victory or indeed victories? Even a final overcoming of She Who Thirsts (fnarr!)? Given Eldrad risked a huge amount, and failed, to awaken Ynnead? That is exactly what make him powerful. He doesn’t know for certain. At all. But, he knows precisely when to roll the dice, twisting fate as best he can, on account he’s seen too many potential futures when he didn’t.

In fact, Eldrad saw a future in which he would not be able to awaken Ynnead due to the intervention of the Deathwatch. It was just that the chance was one in a million and he dismissed this future as unlikely. But he forgot that this is warhammer40k and this is SPHHHHHHACE MARINES AND THEY ALWAYS WIN


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkoms wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Ahriman.
Maphiston would not even be in the running. Eldred would put up a fight, but ultimately Ahriman would win, he is the most powerful Psyker alive behind the emperor(if you wanna count him) magnus, and imo stronger then Eldred.
Ahriman on the regular calls up entire legions of daemons and even has some Lords of change on speed dial, because he knows their true names.

Proof? Where does it say? The Eldar Codex says that Eldrad destroyed the Titans with his psychic power. In one of the books, Ahriman encounters a Titan, and in order to destroy the Titan, he needs the help of other sorcerers. He was also beaten up by a random Shadow Seer in Atlas Infernal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Voss wrote:

Eldrad, having lived waaaaaay long that both the others, plus the Eldar natural psychic talent? Remember. His age means he grew up during The Fall of the Eldar. What would happen if he ditched all discipline and restraint? Channelled his psychic might to purely destructive means?

He'd get his soul devoured. That is absolutely not an option for him.

Is it though? Truly?

If Eldrad, with his knowledge of possible futures and the sacrifices required to tip the scales in favour of his species, knows that he can, most likely sacrifice himself to ensure a future victory or indeed victories? Even a final overcoming of She Who Thirsts (fnarr!)? Given Eldrad risked a huge amount, and failed, to awaken Ynnead? That is exactly what make him powerful. He doesn’t know for certain. At all. But, he knows precisely when to roll the dice, twisting fate as best he can, on account he’s seen too many potential futures when he didn’t.

In fact, Eldrad saw a future in which he would not be able to awaken Ynnead due to the intervention of the Deathwatch. It was just that the chance was one in a million and he dismissed this future as unlikely. But he forgot that this is warhammer40k and this is SPHHHHHHACE MARINES AND THEY ALWAYS WIN

Oh. Bit of lore I just remembered: One of the HH books talks about how the tides of the warp cause certain types of psychic powers to be stronger/weaker at different times. So around the time of the HH, Ahriman's foresight powers were kind of on the fritz, but his brother's fireball powers were in Sozen's Comet mode.

Granted, it's possible that this was a phenomenon experienced exclusively by the Thousand Sons and that it's the result of their style of casting or even a false phenomenon orchestrated by Tzeentch. But if not, then it's botha n interesting way to explain the changes to psychic powers over the course of multiple editions and also maybe a factor in this theoretical matchup.

Are precognition or blood magic especially (im)potent right now?

I believe the Pyrae ascension during the Heresy was due to the nature of the conflict affecting the Warp. The rage and hatred that stemmed from the bloodshed of once brothers and comrades meant that the more subtle psychic arts such as telepathy and divination were eclipsed by the ones that relied on raw power such as pyromancy or telekinesis as the Warp overflowed with emotion. The latter types of power are the ones that cause the most corruption in a psyker as well, drawing on the pure potential and Warp power of the user to change reality or manifest energy from the beyond compared to more passive powers such as foresight or mind reading.
A Thousand Sons shows it perfectly where the Astartes from the more combat oriented Cults are the ones that turn into hyper powered Chaos Spawn or end up detonating in a cascade of Warp energy during the Burning of Prospero.