Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In one of the Cain books, he's onboard a ship with not only his regiment, but also a couple of others. One of those others being a regiment of Catachans.

How does a death world with problems like Catachan has, find the time to stand up literal regiments of Guard soldiers and ship them off to other fights? I thought Catachan is in a near constant state of "fight to survive" mode, such as Cadia or Armagheddon. How do worlds in constant states of war create regiments?

Also, how is a planet like Catachan able to produce "beefy" soldiers, when almost all other human soldiers are small and weak in comparison? Surely they don't have supplies of Space Creatine powder being shipped into their planet every week?

Every Imperial World has a tithe. That tithe, more often than not, includes a requirement to provide troops to The Imperial Guard.

This varies from raising a Regiment, to simply providing replacement bodies to existing Regiments. In extremis that tithe can be upped to the entire population (no, really) but in practice it’s pegged to a percentile of the general populace.

Catachan is no different. Indeed being a Death World, the hard bitten men and women it provides to The Imperium are it’s main offering. Whether there are many Regiments at any one time, who truly knows? But they are valued as Jungle Fighting Specialists, as well as being general purpose turbo Nutters.

As for their bulk? The upside of living on a Deathworld like Catachan is you don’t lack for available proteins. Yes you need to know your poisonous from your non-poisonous, but that’s something you either get good at from a young age, or you, y’know, die. Like really early on.

Who says humans soldiers are small and weak as a rule? The PDF tend to be well fed, because a defence force of starving men and women is, frankly, about as much use as tits on a duck.

Given maintaining the PDF and meeting your tithe are about all a Planetary Governor need do to be left alone, it’s in their interest to keep them well fed. Not necessarily with nice food, but the right calorific and nutritional paste to keep them hale and healthy.

So the way I first read this post title was how are they sorted out, and I was thinking by weight class or perhaps by workout.

You know, the P90X guys are the elites (certainly they think so).

And yes, Catachan being super-lush and frost-free would mean steak dinners every day but not a ton of carbs. These guys are keto fiends.

As for organization, they'd follow the standard Imperial Guard template, with induction, training and then shipping out when required, just like everyone else.

The early fluff on Catachan made it clear that it's regiments were essentially they're on export. And while life is a constant struggle, it's not against a fixed size enemy like orks or chaos, but against the ecosystem. Since the planet doesn't have the resources to support cities, they are trapped in a low density culture where they are never far from the jungle, and thus danger. I believe catachan is also slightly higher gravity, which means they tend to have more muscle mass genetically.

the main take away is the Catachan doesn't necessary need it's regiments to help fight the jungle, it's just a constant battle against nature. IIRC, the old fluff was that on Catchan, every plant is poisonous and every animal is a predator, which is more or less the worst ecological world building possible. OTOH, if you view regimental lore sort of like pro wrestling gimmicks, it makes sense. Like, it's no doubt tough to surivive on Catachan, but it's probably not literally life or death every second, just like probably not every 8 year old cadian can field strip a lasgun.

Lexicanum references the population at 12 million. The only real purpose of the population is to survive and breed. They are undoubtedly fully supplied with everything else externally just to provide superior soldiers. A population like that can probably sustain emigration into the guard of a few thousand per year. Lex also references that the planet doesn’t need a pdf as anything trying to invade will invariably get taken out by the native ecosystem I know such things can be made up by the article editor, but it’s entertaining enough that I’ll believe it

Life on Catachan sucks. A lot. There isn't time for people who don't know how to survive and that applies to every single person on the planet. The death rate is very high but at the same time, the birth rate is pretty similar.
Catachan social life doesn't have time for niceties or fooling around. If two people get along and want to make lots of smaller Jungle Fighters then they do it. If someone doesn't want to then they enlist in the Guard. The kids either learn fast or die in the jungle. There isn't a notion of family lines or important lineages, everyone is nominally equal. That doesn't mean they don't care about their families they just care in a different way.

 Gert wrote:
Life on Catachan sucks. A lot. There isn't time for people who don't know how to survive and that applies to every single person on the planet. The death rate is very high but at the same time, the birth rate is pretty similar.
Catachan social life doesn't have time for niceties or fooling around. If two people get along and want to make lots of smaller Jungle Fighters then they do it. If someone doesn't want to then they enlist in the Guard. The kids either learn fast or die in the jungle. There isn't a notion of family lines or important lineages, everyone is nominally equal. That doesn't mean they don't care about their families they just care in a different way.

Just spitballing, but might service carry with it a retirement on a less deadly planet with loved ones? That would be a powerful recruiting incentive.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Just spitballing, but might service carry with it a retirement on a less deadly planet with loved ones? That would be a powerful recruiting incentive.

"You mean if I kill stuff real good I have to go somewhere boring and be a weak loser like you? Nah, I'm good here."

Sounds like a good way for the recruiting officer to have a little "accident" with a local predator.

Catachan has a population of 12 million. Which are likely clustered in walled cities.

Constantly back-burning the encroaching jungle and then either ripping out what remains with hand tools or bulldozers.

These population centres are likely under constant threat from local wildlife. Either through predators trying to eat them or toxic animals.

Jarms48 wrote:
Catachan has a population of 12 million. Which are likely clustered in walled cities.

Which is another case of GW being super bad at numbers. 12 millions can't keep raising regiments at the rate that would allow them to actually be notable in cosmic scale.

They still could. If 10% of them are in the PDF that’s 1.2 million soldiers. If 10% of those go into the Guard every year that’s 120 thousand Guardsmen.

So as long as their global population increases by more than 1% annually it’s entirely sustainable. For example our current population increases by about 2.4% per year.

At a galactic scale you'd need billions to spread out over millions of worlds to have a viable impact. GW are not alone though, once you get to the galactic scale numbers are almost meaningless because to have meaningful numbers you start counting in values so large most people start to lose any sense of relativity - it all just becomes big insane numbers.



The other element is that the Imperial Guard has always been this highly varied standard army template that is unique to almost every world that musters in various ways. Thing is GW doesn't have billions to throw at making that many varied units. So what we get are a handful of very notable units that get stories told and regiments rolled out everywhere; even though in reality they would likely just be one component of many many forces. Catachans are likely representing not just themsleves but also the untold numbers from many other worlds similar too ,but not as notable as Catachan.



Also note that how many people you can raise for an army depends a lot on the social structure of the population. If the world has machines and importing to replace agriculture and administration and production then a world could generate a much higher number of troops to send off-world whilst being able to sustain itself.

Catching doesn't have a PDF for two reasons.
Everyone has to know how to fight and survive in the jungle and the jungle itself is a natural defence.

With a world as specialised as Catachan, and whilst this needs more research, it may be their Regiments are smaller than average.

A Catachan makes an excellent wilderness Scout type. A regiment of such is….not as useful. But, if the Regiment is perhaps have a dozen platoons? Those can be attached to Armies for specialised roles.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With a world as specialised as Catachan, and whilst this needs more research, it may be their Regiments are smaller than average.

A Catachan makes an excellent wilderness Scout type. A regiment of such is….not as useful. But, if the Regiment is perhaps have a dozen platoons? Those can be attached to Armies for specialised roles.

The best modern examle is the Gurkhas, who have a tiny relative population base but provide soldiers for multiple nations.

During the Middle Ages, the Swiss served the same function. A significant amount of Nepal's economy depends upon pension remittances from abroad.

Catachan by its nature probably has little industry, so would rely heavily in imported finished goods which would be purchased by the military service of an abnormally large segment of the population.

One complication would be sustaining that birthrate with so many men leaving during their prime. Obviously, plural marriage could occur, but would you want the invalids and stay-behinds siring generation after generation? There would have to be some system of homeward rotations. I don't know if that's in the novels, I've only read the codexes.

And ageing is an issue. GW loves the super-grim, super-dark but it also has to account for seasoned warriors past their prime. Assuming the casualty rate isn't 100 percent, a certain percentage will survive into middle age where they are better used as trainers and administrators. All troops in history have preferred a cozy retirement to unending privation.

Then again, maybe there are no old Catachan. Logan's Run in the jungle: once you turn 30, it's time for your Imperial service. Been nice knowing ya!

Aging is complicated though because the Imperium can extend life quite considerably. This, of course, can be heavily reliant on your social and financial standing and the standing of the world you are on. But it could mean that viable breeding stock of people can be maintained for a longer period of time than we are used too in the real world.

So that could potentially extend some of the limits

We also know The Imperium doesn’t rely solely on Knocking Boots to get babies going.

Catachan as a society may operate genebanks. Not necessarily cloning as such. But repositories of, well, y’know. It could be that every Catachan off to the Guard leave, erm, donations of their gender’s gametes, to ensure their bloodline is preserved. That done, bit of IVF, and you’re off to the races.

It would also reduce the need for the mother-to-be to be Catachan born, as to be crude about it, with IVF, any womb will do as the mother doesn’t contribute DNA at that point.

Also as I said earlier, there aren't many cultural taboos regarding long courting periods so people just get together and start making babies. If they don't want to have kids that's just as acceptable, these people just perform other duties such as military service. And having loads of kids isn't just some sort of duty, it's a requirement to make sure enough survive because the entire planet loves nothing more than to eat Catachans.

Lexicanum says the 12 million population source is an old White Dwarf. Need to track that down and read the original.

To be fair, almost no single Imperial planet will produce enough soldiers to meaningfully impact the Imperium as a whole (excepting maybe Terra with its population over a quadrillion). Even worlds dedicated to producing huge numbers of guard, like Krieg or (formerly) Cadia will be a drop in the ocean of the overall annual tithe. Catachan is famed not for the number of its regiments, but for their quality. They represent the epitome of the death world jungle fighter regiment. Other worlds produce similar troops (like Armageddon Ork Hunters), but Catachan does it the best.

All the main regiments are like this- renowned examples of their archetypes.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With a world as specialised as Catachan, and whilst this needs more research, it may be their Regiments are smaller than average.

A Catachan makes an excellent wilderness Scout type. A regiment of such is….not as useful. But, if the Regiment is perhaps have a dozen platoons? Those can be attached to Armies for specialised roles.

The best modern examle is the Gurkhas, who have a tiny relative population base but provide soldiers for multiple nations.

During the Middle Ages, the Swiss served the same function. A significant amount of Nepal's economy depends upon pension remittances from abroad.

Catachan by its nature probably has little industry, so would rely heavily in imported finished goods which would be purchased by the military service of an abnormally large segment of the population.

One complication would be sustaining that birthrate with so many men leaving during their prime. Obviously, plural marriage could occur, but would you want the invalids and stay-behinds siring generation after generation? There would have to be some system of homeward rotations. I don't know if that's in the novels, I've only read the codexes.

And ageing is an issue. GW loves the super-grim, super-dark but it also has to account for seasoned warriors past their prime. Assuming the casualty rate isn't 100 percent, a certain percentage will survive into middle age where they are better used as trainers and administrators. All troops in history have preferred a cozy retirement to unending privation.

Then again, maybe there are no old Catachan. Logan's Run in the jungle: once you turn 30, it's time for your Imperial service. Been nice knowing ya!

Catachan only survives due to supplies from the wider Imperium, and they have to frequently relocate their settlements once the local ecosystem becomes to aggressive. Their industry must be non-existent. Catachan is kept alive by the Imperium for one purpose- producing some of the finest guardsmen in the Imperium. All of their gear will be supplied by the Departmento Munitorum.

Hmm. It is possible that there are sperm banks or similar kept on Catachan to address this. We do know regiments sometimes return- the Catachan II under Straken returned and helped fend-off a CSM invasion. He may have been on-planet for other reasons. However, all Catachan citizens over a certain age being recruited would not be surprising.

Sperm Banks and IVF would also help combat inbreeding. Given 12,000,000 population is small, and likely scattered into relatively small societies, I can see a mix’n’match IVF approach being of appeal.

Man, that’s a short story in need of Blind Pitching to Black Library!

Remember that all Catachans are genetically superior to normal humans in terms of strength and endurance so it's very likely that their ancestors had some genetic tampering going on.

 Haighus wrote:
Lexicanum says the 12 million population source is an old White Dwarf. Need to track that down and read the original.

To be fair, almost no single Imperial planet will produce enough soldiers to meaningfully impact the Imperium as a whole (excepting maybe Terra with its population over a quadrillion). Even worlds dedicated to producing huge numbers of guard, like Krieg or (formerly) Cadia will be a drop in the ocean of the overall annual tithe. Catachan is famed not for the number of its regiments, but for their quality. They represent the epitome of the death world jungle fighter regiment. Other worlds produce similar troops (like Armageddon Ork Hunters), but Catachan does it the best.

All the main regiments are like this- renowned examples of their archetypes.

I tried to wrap my brain around the scope of a truly galactic civil war in the Man of Destiny series, and the scale was daunting. One of the plot points was a disastrous defeat and the elected representative of a planet waking up to the news that they had a million less soldiers. That's a lot of angry voters.

Of course, there's no limit to dystopian breeding options in the GW universe, though (and maybe you fluff gurus have better info) my sense was that after the Horus Heresy, natural breeding was preferred. All the successor chapters use actual, free-born people as recruits, and implant the seed-organs so that they can naturally develop within the candidate to prevent the possibility of errant technology.

A planet entirely dependent upon a gene-bank would by ripe for pollution by Chaos or Tyranids, and the results would be disastrous.

tneva82 wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
Catachan has a population of 12 million. Which are likely clustered in walled cities.

Which is another case of GW being super bad at numbers. 12 millions can't keep raising regiments at the rate that would allow them to actually be notable in cosmic scale.

Why would Catachan regiments need to to particularly notable on a cosmic scale?

The reason GW features Catachan regiments so much is for the same reason they feature the same dozen Marine Chapters all of the time and not the other 988 or so that exist.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
Catachan has a population of 12 million. Which are likely clustered in walled cities.

Which is another case of GW being super bad at numbers. 12 millions can't keep raising regiments at the rate that would allow them to actually be notable in cosmic scale.

Why would Catachan regiments need to to particularly notable on a cosmic scale?

The reason GW features Catachan regiments so much is for the same reason they feature the same dozen Marine Chapters all of the time and not the other 988 or so that exist.

For any Guard regiment, and I must stress, of note it really enhances the background.

The Imperial Guard easily number in the billions, possibly edging into the trillions. It has innumerable Regiments from mildly less innumerable worlds. It super standardised for the most part. Las, Flak, Frag, off you go, try not to die too quickly but have fun storming the castle.

The notable regiments are that for very good reason. Catachan Regiments will be few and far between. And god awful as the Imperium is at getting the right troops to the right theatre are? They’re still good enough to completely swing a warzone.

I still want to see less focus on Regiments of Renown overall. But famed regiments/recruiting worlds still play their part.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:



The notable regiments are that for very good reason. Catachan Regiments will be few and far between. And god awful as the Imperium is at getting the right troops to the right theatre are? They’re still good enough to completely swing a warzone.

I still want to see less focus on Regiments of Renown overall. But famed regiments/recruiting worlds still play their part.

I suppose the theory is that most IG forces are pretty similar, otherwise unremarkable and these are the elements that stand out.

Because I can't help myself, if I were to delve deeper into their background (to make it "work"), I'd say that Catachans marry young, at age 16, and concentrate on building their families, staying alive, and training. At around age 32, the eligible males are shipped for overseas service, which lasts 10 to 20 years. After their term expires, they return home, to help train the next generation and also assist with keeping the planet livable.

The child mortality rate would be high, so the large families would be necessary and the loss rate for off-world service is 90 percent. Those who return, however, are treated with the utmost respect and through complex ties of kinship, would become "grandfathers" to all their relative's children whose fathers died in service.

This would be part of what gives them their warrior spirit - the desire not only to live through their term, but to return home to a place of extreme honor.

With so many men leaving the planet and dying, there would in theory be a gender imbalance, but childbirth is fraught with danger so the female mortality rate (particularly in childbirth) is very high. Like the Spartans, mothers who die "in service" are remembered with great honor.

Anyway, that's my take.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:



The notable regiments are that for very good reason. Catachan Regiments will be few and far between. And god awful as the Imperium is at getting the right troops to the right theatre are? They’re still good enough to completely swing a warzone.

I still want to see less focus on Regiments of Renown overall. But famed regiments/recruiting worlds still play their part.

I suppose the theory is that most IG forces are pretty similar, otherwise unremarkable and these are the elements that stand out.

Because I can't help myself, if I were to delve deeper into their background (to make it "work"), I'd say that Catachans marry young, at age 16, and concentrate on building their families, staying alive, and training. At around age 32, the eligible males are shipped for overseas service, which lasts 10 to 20 years. After their term expires, they return home, to help train the next generation and also assist with keeping the planet livable.

The child mortality rate would be high, so the large families would be necessary and the loss rate for off-world service is 90 percent. Those who return, however, are treated with the utmost respect and through complex ties of kinship, would become "grandfathers" to all their relative's children whose fathers died in service.

This would be part of what gives them their warrior spirit - the desire not only to live through their term, but to return home to a place of extreme honor.

With so many men leaving the planet and dying, there would in theory be a gender imbalance, but childbirth is fraught with danger so the female mortality rate (particularly in childbirth) is very high. Like the Spartans, mothers who die "in service" are remembered with great honor.

Anyway, that's my take.

The biggest wrinkle is we know female catachans serve in the Guard. One of the two most recently-released catachan models was a female sergeant. I don't know how common women are in catachan regiments.

To be honest, life is brutal, harsh, and often short on Catachan. Much like in real life on modern Earth, I think it is quite likely that people start breeding at an earlier age than 16, although probably best not to explore that further.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Lexicanum says the 12 million population source is an old White Dwarf. Need to track that down and read the original.

To be fair, almost no single Imperial planet will produce enough soldiers to meaningfully impact the Imperium as a whole (excepting maybe Terra with its population over a quadrillion). Even worlds dedicated to producing huge numbers of guard, like Krieg or (formerly) Cadia will be a drop in the ocean of the overall annual tithe. Catachan is famed not for the number of its regiments, but for their quality. They represent the epitome of the death world jungle fighter regiment. Other worlds produce similar troops (like Armageddon Ork Hunters), but Catachan does it the best.

All the main regiments are like this- renowned examples of their archetypes.

I tried to wrap my brain around the scope of a truly galactic civil war in the Man of Destiny series, and the scale was daunting. One of the plot points was a disastrous defeat and the elected representative of a planet waking up to the news that they had a million less soldiers. That's a lot of angry voters.

Of course, there's no limit to dystopian breeding options in the GW universe, though (and maybe you fluff gurus have better info) my sense was that after the Horus Heresy, natural breeding was preferred. All the successor chapters use actual, free-born people as recruits, and implant the seed-organs so that they can naturally develop within the candidate to prevent the possibility of errant technology.

A planet entirely dependent upon a gene-bank would by ripe for pollution by Chaos or Tyranids, and the results would be disastrous.

Eh, sperm banks are not complex by Imperial standards, and basically natural reproduction with a gap in the middle.

The Imperium shies away from cloning in particular, but they are more accepting of other tech. Goliaths on Necromunda are mostly vat grown, for example. The Death Korps of Krieg use "vitae wombs", which seem to be some kind of in vitro womb tech to massively speed up reproduction- this is about the limit of what is tolerated and is run by Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis adepts. The tech is controversial and some within the Biologis do not condone it.

Sperm banks are pretty pedestrian in comparison.

I can see Catachan having quite a high technology base, being pretty dependent on imported technology to survive. I can also see their medical technology being pretty good to counteract all the horrors out in the wilds, and to fit the many many many cybernetic implants likely required to replace bits lost to the locals. So I don’t think it necessarily scans that childbirth mortality is high. Child mortality, Definately as there is no buffer zone in that environment.

I might also point out that Krieg society has NO problems creating more baby Kriegs, so Catachan has little excuse there. Krieg being a much harder place to play hide the salami then Catachan.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Just spitballing, but might service carry with it a retirement on a less deadly planet with loved ones? That would be a powerful recruiting incentive.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Because I can't help myself, if I were to delve deeper into their background (to make it "work"), I'd say that Catachans marry young, at age 16, and concentrate on building their families, staying alive, and training. At around age 32, the eligible males are shipped for overseas service, which lasts 10 to 20 years. After their term expires, they return home, to help train the next generation and also assist with keeping the planet livable.

Your conjectures depend on the assumption of an unnatural and recent development in human culture, the idea of the nuclear family.

What's more likely is that Catachan culture is traditionally communal. It takes less than a year to create a new human; Catachans probably have children early in their lives, and are shortly thereafter available to transit off-planet, while the community shares the responsibility of raising the children left behind.

 Altruizine wrote:

Your conjectures depend on the assumption of an unnatural and recent development in human culture, the idea of the nuclear family.

Offering land in exchange for military service goes back to Roman times.

What's more likely is that Catachan culture is traditionally communal. It takes less than a year to create a new human; Catachans probably have children early in their lives, and are shortly thereafter available to transit off-planet, while the community shares the responsibility of raising the children left behind.

That was what I suggested. The old veterans mind the families of those abroad, and a larger kinship network sustains the families at home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:

The biggest wrinkle is we know female catachans serve in the Guard. One of the two most recently-released catachan models was a female sergeant. I don't know how common women are in catachan regiments.

Yeah, about that: in a life-or-death survival situation, women are too important to be bullet-stops. That's the job of (surplus) males.

Even if you use a sperm bank, someone has to be there to receive the insemination and carry the little bundle of joy to term.