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I was listening to a Luetin09 video, again, a while ago and he says the Space Marines and Custodes need the black carapace (Custodes have something similar, they have metal ports all over their body) to use power armor affectively but the AS and SoS don't because they practice using it.

That doesn't make any F-ing sense. The gene enhanced muscled SM and AC don't use power armor enough so they need the black carapace, even after a couple hundred years? The AS even have their own GK dreadknight (no longer sold to Americans but used to be labeled as "special" high tech GK) equivalent in Paragon Warsuits.

The GK have been completely gutted. I wouldn't buy it but their special Land Raider is no longer available either. Is GW just clearing stock before they cancel them? I don't understand why other SM terminators can teleport but GK terminators can't. I'm [wrongly] giving GW the benefit of the doubt, but I can't understand why. They were my favorite but I can't justify it to myself anymore.


Kaldor Draigo isn't around anymore so the new info on the Terminus Decree is useless because he can't tell his successor about it, so it's affectively lost.

 NorthernXY wrote:
... but the AS and SoS don't because they practice using it.

This is not the reason.

The black carapace allows a Space Marine's armour to interface directly with their nervous system. Other power armour does not have this capability, so offers a similar level of protection but is more cumbersome.

Power armour has never needed the black carapace to function. Not in the entire lifetime of 40k.

Space marine power armour does require the black carapace, because it's designed around the wearer already having it.

But 40k power armour has never required it. The armour simply moves with the wearer's movements. The black carapace makes the armour move BETTER and more responsively due to the way it interfaces, that's all.

Marines in power armour have the handling of a sports car. Humans in power armour have the handling of a suburban people mover. They generate the same result, one is just better at it than the other.

Yup. Two different models.

To continue the car analogy?

My car, which is hybrid electric and can park itself (which is ace, as I’m terrible at parallel parking). But, it’s a manual and otherwise not self driving. That here is non-Astartes Power Armour.

If it was Astartes Power armour? It would be driven by a direct neural link, acting less like a vehicle/armour, and more an extension of my body. That’s where the Black Carapace comes in.

It makes the wearer and plate far more efficient, allowing the Marine such fluidity of movement that they might as well be nekkid.

The Sisters of Battle were retconned to have the ports which the armour plugs into though. Because female Marines.

You can still have Jack-in ports, but that does not a Black Carapace make.

It’s like the difference between your car having computer assisted collision avoidance, lane maintaining scanners and cruise control and your car being self driving.

As for another part of OP's post, isn't there a whole detachment for GK themed around teleportation?

They may not teleport the same way other marines teleport... But I think I remember reading somewhere that this is because they're better at at. Like other marines get a generic deepstrike rule to represent their ability to teleport.

But GK actually have redeploy strats and such... Which are better.

Of course, I don't have the dex, so take it with a grain of salt.

 PenitentJake wrote:
As for another part of OP's post, isn't there a whole detachment for GK themed around teleportation?

They may not teleport the same way other marines teleport... But I think I remember reading somewhere that this is because they're better at at. Like other marines get a generic deepstrike rule to represent their ability to teleport.

But GK actually have redeploy strats and such... Which are better.

Of course, I don't have the dex, so take it with a grain of salt.

Yes. In the index they had the ability to deep strike all over the place. I still have nightmares about their ugly dreadknights bouncing around the tabletop.

Partly due to Hexagrammatic Warding on their armour, making short hops through the warp much safer for them than others.

Yeah, but its a good point. Black Carapace's benefits to an Astartes have never been translated properly into the rules of the game, compared to what SoS and Sororitas have. So I can understand the WTF moments from a game performance perspective..

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The Sisters of Battle were retconned to have the ports which the armour plugs into though. Because female Marines.

Sisters are not Marines. Two different factions, with different aesthetics, gameplay, and lore.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The Sisters of Battle were retconned to have the ports which the armour plugs into though. Because female Marines.

That's not the Black Carapace. The Black Carapace looks like this:

That’s a body glove. The Black Carpace is subcutaneous.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The Sisters of Battle were retconned to have the ports which the armour plugs into though. Because female Marines.

Non marines have always used MIU or nerve connectors to wear power armour. It's not new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
Yeah, but its a good point. Black Carapace's benefits to an Astartes have never been translated properly into the rules of the game, compared to what SoS and Sororitas have. So I can understand the WTF moments from a game performance perspective..

No faction has ever had their biology 100% translated into the game. Only marine players whinge about it. Their stats represent all those features rolled together, just as T5 W1 represents all the ork biology that protects them.

If you expect that level of detail, every eldar should have a minor psychic power, have a reflex invulnerable save and be able to ignore cover because of their superior eyesight. Every ork should be treated like a necron and lay down and roll to stand back up after their biology recovers from the injury. The more they fight the stronger, faster and tougher they should get. Everyone in melee with tyranids should roll every time they kill one to see if they also die from the acid and viruses released.

 Hellebore wrote:

If you expect that level of detail, every eldar should have a minor psychic power, have a reflex invulnerable save and be able to ignore cover because of their superior eyesight. Every ork should be treated like a necron and lay down and roll to stand back up after their biology recovers from the injury. The more they fight the stronger, faster and tougher they should get. Everyone in melee with tyranids should roll every time they kill one to see if they also die from the acid and viruses released.

That would be Warhammer we deserve.

kabaakaba wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

If you expect that level of detail, every eldar should have a minor psychic power, have a reflex invulnerable save and be able to ignore cover because of their superior eyesight. Every ork should be treated like a necron and lay down and roll to stand back up after their biology recovers from the injury. The more they fight the stronger, faster and tougher they should get. Everyone in melee with tyranids should roll every time they kill one to see if they also die from the acid and viruses released.

That would be Warhammer we deserve.

And I need Imperial Guardsmen who die to a swift breeze and are armed with lasguns that can't kill anything tougher than a sick grox.

I looked it up on google, I can’t actually find a consensus that custodes have a black carapace (though hey, it’s not like we get much details on anything for how they’re made), with some saying the black carapace is the 19th organ that makes up the geneseed. Some stuff about how the custodes see the black carapace as a crude way of doing connectivity. While I 100% believe the custodes probably have a black carapace analogy but better, it also shows that the black carapace is not required to use power armor. I don’t know what this actually contributes but I wrote this so yea :/

 The_Pilot wrote:
... it also shows that the black carapace is not required to use power armor.

The black carapace has never been required to use power armor. Again, it just allows space marines to interface better with their specific type of power armour. Regular humans have always had access to power armour without the carapace.

Custodes also don't use marine organs or have any additions, they're genetically engineered from childhood. So their means of using their armour is going to be entirely different.

 insaniak wrote:

 The_Pilot wrote:
... it also shows that the black carapace is not required to use power armor.

The black carapace has never been required to use power armor. Again, it just allows space marines to interface better with their specific type of power armour. Regular humans have always had access to power armour without the carapace.

I agree, I’m just adding on more details on how custodes specifically interact with their armor and how they see black carapace used by space marines, adding more proof to the no carapace needed idea.

Sisters have interface plugs that translate muscle movement into servo movement in the armour. You can see these plugs on the Repentia models, and the Warhammer Community article that introduced them said that was the same method other non-astartes Power Armour uses.

The black carapace is a subdermal implant that allows Astartes power armour to respond directly to the same neural impulses that tell the Marine's own muscles to move.

Nobody really knows what the Custodes use IIRC, but it is not a black carapace because that's specifically part of the marine implant process and not the genesmithing that forges Custodians

The practical upside of this is that Space Marine power armour would respond milliseconds faster than Sororitas power armour because sororitas power armour has to wait for the muscles to actually respond before moving, whereas the astartes power armour skips that step and responds directly from the brain.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The Sisters of Battle were retconned to have the ports which the armour plugs into though. Because female Marines.

Non marines have always used MIU or nerve connectors to wear power armour. It's not new.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
Yeah, but its a good point. Black Carapace's benefits to an Astartes have never been translated properly into the rules of the game, compared to what SoS and Sororitas have. So I can understand the WTF moments from a game performance perspective..

No faction has ever had their biology 100% translated into the game. Only marine players whinge about it. Their stats represent all those features rolled together, just as T5 W1 represents all the ork biology that protects them.

If you expect that level of detail, every eldar should have a minor psychic power, have a reflex invulnerable save and be able to ignore cover because of their superior eyesight. Every ork should be treated like a necron and lay down and roll to stand back up after their biology recovers from the injury. The more they fight the stronger, faster and tougher they should get. Everyone in melee with tyranids should roll every time they kill one to see if they also die from the acid and viruses released.

That sounds awesome, but since a game such as that one wouldn't be able to sell as many models to all factions involved, I doubt we will ever see GW make it. Your marine army would basically be like 1 full squad

However, "superior eyesight beats cover" argument doesn't really ring plausible to me. Even if that were the case, its not like anyone is allowed to just chill and take their time aiming their weapon, without having to be mindful of the chaotic battle conditions etc..

It was called Inquisitor and it died cos none of y'all wanted to buy 54mm models for it

Charax wrote:
It was called Inquisitor and it died cos none of y'all wanted to buy 54mm models for it

Ehhh... and no one had terrain for 54mm models.

There's also over a half dozen different 40k TT RPGs that fill that niche to various degree for various factions.

Charax wrote:

Nobody really knows what the Custodes use IIRC, but it is not a black carapace because that's specifically part of the marine implant process and not the genesmithing that forges Custodians

There's some detailled descriptions of Custodes gearing up for battle in IIRC Valdor, and their interface is indeed something more advanced that the black carapace. It also should be remembered that not only every single Custode is custom-crafted by genesmithing and whatnot, but every piece of their equipment is tailor-made as well. So the method of interfacing might vary between individuals, and there might be even more variety within the Adeptus Custodes than between Custodes and any given group of power armour users outside of them. That was also part of the reason why the Custodes were not practical to produce at crusade scale: their creation and outfitting was just too demanding, and consumed too much time and ressources to have large armies of them.

On the Custodes compared to Marines?

Remember that Marines were the Mass Production Genhancement approach.

Massively refined compared to Thunder Warriors, true. But still there to be produced in However Many We Think We Can Get Way With, whilst also being ultimately kinda disposable.

Custards are individually crafted.

So to continue the car analogy?

Thunder Warriors are early cars. Still better than walking, longer range and less fuss than a horse.

Space Marines are modern cars. Some automated/assisted functions, far safer and much more comfortable.

Custards are your Rolls Royce. Custom made not just to order, but to your specifications.

So whilst Custards may have something akin to the Black Carapace? It’s likely more advanced, with the design and production of the first Black Carapace being an effort to replicate the same concept in a cost effective manner.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

Charax wrote:
It was called Inquisitor and it died cos none of y'all wanted to buy 54mm models for it

Ehhh... and no one had terrain for 54mm models.

It died because 54 mm models were a stupid idea. Most of us complain that we don't have enough room in our apartments or even houses for all the 28mm terrain we want, and making vehicles for 54 mm models was never going to happen. The fact that so many former Inquisitor models were remade in 28mm suggests that the game always could have worked at 28mm scale, so any designer who said they "needed" 54mm scale was wrong, and they are the reason the game failed. Literally ANY player could have told them it wasn't going to work, but they didn't ask and didn't listen to anyone who tried to talk them out of such an ill conceived plan. And it's a shame, cuz the game was great- I still have the book and flip through it ALL THE TIME.

Blaming players for not wanting to buy an ill-conceived product that clearly had no long-term future is a bad look. If GW had pulled their heads out of their butts and given us the scale that they KNEW we preferred, people would have been as happy to buy Inquisitor models as they are to buy Necromunda models, or Kill Teams or Blackstone Fortress in the modern era.

Aeronautica Imperialis having a different scale was okay, because it was a VASTLY different scale that facilitated a different type of warfare. I'd say the same about Legions Imperialis, because Warcom once reported that the scales are actually the same, but LI is tragically stuck in the Horus Heresy era, so as far as I'm concerned there isn't enough faction variety for it to be a good game whether I like the scale or not.

 PenitentJake wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

Charax wrote:
It was called Inquisitor and it died cos none of y'all wanted to buy 54mm models for it

Ehhh... and no one had terrain for 54mm models.

It died because 54 mm models were a stupid idea. Most of us complain that we don't have enough room in our apartments or even houses for all the 28mm terrain we want, and making vehicles for 54 mm models was never going to happen. The fact that so many former Inquisitor models were remade in 28mm suggests that the game always could have worked at 28mm scale, so any designer who said they "needed" 54mm scale was wrong, and they are the reason the game failed. Literally ANY player could have told them it wasn't going to work, but they didn't ask and didn't listen to anyone who tried to talk them out of such an ill conceived plan. And it's a shame, cuz the game was great- I still have the book and flip through it ALL THE TIME.

Blaming players for not wanting to buy an ill-conceived product that clearly had no long-term future is a bad look. If GW had pulled their heads out of their butts and given us the scale that they KNEW we preferred, people would have been as happy to buy Inquisitor models as they are to buy Necromunda models, or Kill Teams or Blackstone Fortress in the modern era.

Aeronautica Imperialis having a different scale was okay, because it was a VASTLY different scale that facilitated a different type of warfare. I'd say the same about Legions Imperialis, because Warcom once reported that the scales are actually the same, but LI is tragically stuck in the Horus Heresy era, so as far as I'm concerned there isn't enough faction variety for it to be a good game whether I like the scale or not.

My favorite GW game: Adeptus Titanicus is also frozen in time, just like Legion Imperialis, and not for the better.

But I agree that if they re-released Inquisitor at the same scale as Necromunda, I would happily play it.

 PenitentJake wrote:
Blaming players for not wanting to buy an ill-conceived product that clearly had no long-term future is a bad look. If GW had pulled their heads out of their butts and given us the scale that they KNEW we preferred, people would have been as happy to buy Inquisitor models as they are to buy Necromunda models, or Kill Teams or Blackstone Fortress in the modern era.

I think this is one of those 'benefit of hindsight' things, to be honest. Around the time Inquisitor was released, GW frequently showed off 3-ups of new models (for the uninitiated: before digital model production, plastic models were sculpted at 3 times their intended size and then a pantograph was used to carve out the mould at the appropriate scale) and there was a reasonable amount of demand for those to be sold, which quite possibly contributed to the decision to do Inquisitor at a larger scale... the customers had said they would like larger models, so GW gave them to us. And then nobody bought them.

I honestly think the poor support was a bigger factor in Inquisitor's failure than the scale. Or, rather, scale was the killer, but because it resulted in there being a very small number of models available for the game, rather than because they were not the same scale as 40K, specifically. If they could have launched the game with a larger model range (ideally including multi-part plastics) and a couple of terrain kits, and also released a couple of proper campaign books alongside the rulebook, things may very well have gone differently.


That said, just making the game use 40K models would have opened things up tremendously, and (again, benefit of hindsight) would have made it much more accessible for potential players...