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So nowadays Space Marines are depicted as being incredibly fast moving. My question, has this always been the case?

I vaguely remember in older lore (ie, pre 5th) they were loosely accepted as being 'faster' than regular humans but they also weren't doing 60 miles per hour down the freeway which... apparently they are now capable of.

Does anyone remember, even if only vaguely, how fast were they compared to 'fit + healthy humans' 'back in the day'?

It’s been a long time that their physical abilities have far outstripped a human.

The speed thing I’ll need to check. But in terms of sheer endurance? A Marine being able to run/jog for days on end I think goes back to 2nd Ed.

Scratch that. Just checked my Codex Ultramarines, and it doesn’t include a list of the implant organs, or mention anything specific about what makes them super human.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s been a long time that their physical abilities have far outstripped a human.

The speed thing I’ll need to check. But in terms of sheer endurance? A Marine being able to run/jog for days on end I think goes back to 2nd Ed.

Scratch that. Just checked my Codex Ultramarines, and it doesn’t include a list of the implant organs, or mention anything specific about what makes them super human.

Nor Codex: Angels of Death. I've looked at my Codex Imperialis and it has the Space Marine Organs. Though it mentions the Biscopea increasing muscle growth, it affects on speed and strength is not mentioned. Strength and speed of plot I guess. Which has lead to there exaggeration.

Might’ve been 3dd ed? As much as 2nd Ed codified the craziness of 1st? It was 3rd that cemented the galaxy as we know it today.

It's in some HH book(which one im ofcource forget) where entionet they "switch" to some kind if leap-run which they use when transport unavailable. They don't said exact speed but seems it very fast. Way faster then any people can run

We can also look at real world, top atheletes.

Usain Bolt for instance. He’s been clocked sprinting at around 27mph.

Now, of course being a sprinter, it’s incredibly doubtful he could maintain that for any real length of time. He’s fast, yes. But still human, and wouldn’t be able to do that over 200m, let alone longer distances because of biological limits. His are different and clearly superior to pretty much every other human, but still there.

Astartes? Those limits we know are stripped away. And their Power Armour assists there as well.

So I don’t think it’s entirely daft to say an Astartes can run at the same speed, if not slightly higher due to increased height and so stride.

How long can they keep up a flat sprint? Now that’s debateable. Including whether say 30mph, for an Astartes, is a sprint, or just a determined run.

The HH novels riding high on power fantasy protagonism started writing stories of marines running at 60kph etc. Because it sells books.

They were always faster and stronger than humans.

There are multiple ways to think of speed. One is speed of reaction time and muscle twitch. One is short distance movement from point A to point B. Another one is speed over larger distances.

Back in the days of Initiative, Marines had the higher Initiative over a normal human. Initiative was part reaction speed, part aggression, and part raw agility. So Marines were faster than Humans.

Whenever Marines have had a movement statistic regarding how much distance they cover on the table, they've always been as fast as a normal human. This doesn't represent a "max speed", but really more of a "squad moves as a unit, covering each other and pressing forward semi-cautiously". So there's room for Marines to be faster than humans, it's just not enough to make a difference. There's a cap to how much you can squeeze out of that wiggle room when trying to say that Marines are actually faster, because Eldar have always been faster than Marines. If Marines are supposed to be able to move/run at 30+ mph, then Eldar (or many Tyranids) are clearly capable of doing more.

The place where Marines have a huge leg up on humans (and Eldar, presumably), is that they don't tire. They can get moving at a decent clip, maybe a fast march or a jog or even a run, and the they can keep up that speed for a loooong time, potentially days. This is an incredibly valuable ability from a strategic, or even tactical perspective. If a unit can infiltrate (without big, noisy vehicles) enemy lines and strike unsuspecting opponents with relative speed at large distances, that opens up all sorts of fantastic ways to cause trouble. This is where the special forces type or role for Marines really comes in to play. They can march fast (faster than a normal human), for days (they don't need sleep), and require no resupply (they can digest almost anything), gather unique intel (by eating brains!) and then show up at some unsuspecting high value site as power armored super soldiers who specialize in storming secure sites.

For example. . . not to dwell on real world politics but here's a quick demonstration. It's about 300 miles from the edge of Ukraine to Moscow. Let's say Marines cant do their 25+mph "max human sprint" for their long marches, but are moving at a "marathoners jog" of 12 mph. That's getting from Ukraine into Moscow in 25 hours. One day. Let's be more realistic and imagine that it's not a straight line and terrain is rough, so 6mph. That's still only 2 days to deliver the Emperors Divine Retribution at the Governors Palace. Imagine a typical well trained trooper making that journey. How fast can they realistically move over that distance? How much food do they need to carry? How much do they need to sleep on the way? More food means more weight, more weight is more fatigue and slower pace. These factors might compound over the distance, and can make this mission take much longer (I dunno, 15 days at 20 miles of progress a day? I genuinely don't know what's realistic here) This makes the Marine unit in this proposed scenario eight times as fast as an elite human trooper, even moreso compared to a "normal" soldier. That is an incredible capability, and it gives Marines "superhuman speed" without requiring silly things like running as fast as horses or whatever hogwash the HH novels are pushing.

*My numbers might be off, but I hope it still makes the point.

Well, that's makes sm the sm. They can do things normal human can't. Don't tiring, don't need food for long time, don't need to sleep.
Still we have books that say they ran with horse speed and since they don't tiring they can be where they need even faster.

 kabaakaba wrote:

Still we have books that say they ran with horse speed

The books say a lot of conflicting or outright very incorrect things though.

But we have multiple game systems spanning 30 years that say Marines are not sufficiently faster than regular humans to represent in the rules, and slower than many aliens.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 kabaakaba wrote:

Still we have books that say they ran with horse speed

The books say a lot of conflicting or outright very incorrect things though.

But we have multiple game systems spanning 30 years that say Marines are not sufficiently faster than regular humans to represent in the rules, and slower than many aliens.

The books are indeed all over the place. You can cherry pick instances that fit whatever you want.

Just best to assume the answer is that of "How fast can a ship travel at lightspeed in Star Wars?" As fast as the plot requires.

Gonna be honest, even just moving CONSTANTLY at the top speed we've seen humans run; fully armoured and armed for potentially an indefinite period of time... yeah that's fairly intimidating.

Having them as the peak of humanity, beyond what we could achieve normally is more engaging then making them demi-gods. Leave that to the primachs.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 kabaakaba wrote:

Still we have books that say they ran with horse speed

The books say a lot of conflicting or outright very incorrect things though.

But we have multiple game systems spanning 30 years that say Marines are not sufficiently faster than regular humans to represent in the rules, and slower than many aliens.

Combat conditions do matter there though. Advancing in an active engagement area means proceeding with caution. Like being more aware of your surroundings, not just bombing it around as fast as you can go and that.

Where an Astartes physical prowess really comes into it is sustained fighting, and forced marches.

Whilst we don’t, and probably never will now, have a set top speed for Astartes? I think we’re comfortable saying that at a run, they can match humanity’s top sprinters. And thanks to their genhancements, can maintain those speeds far longer than a human. We’re also reliably informed that (by no means at their top speed), they can maintain a run for like….a day. A whole day. Without resting, and still be combat effective at the end of it.

Let’s rationalise that, hopefully without being silly with the numbers. And I’ll again refer to Usain Bolt’s fastest recorded speed of 44.72kmh/27.8mph.

As I mentioned above, I’m satisfied an Astartes could comfortably match that as a sprinting speed, even fully armoured. But I don’t want to argue “and they can maintain that for ages”. Instead, I’m going to argue their marching speed between war zones could easily be 20mph.

If they keep that up for 24 hours? That could see them hoof it 480 miles in a single day. Which is a ludicrous distance. And, importantly, not only do so without rest periods, but still be combat effective at the end of that march.

Of course terrain and general geography is gonna impact that. Even super strong super speed super endurance has to contend with “yeah, well, I’m a bloody big mountain”, different ground types (marsh, sand, rock, concrete, snow). But…so would their enemy, unless they’ve got skimmers sufficient to carry everyone.

To put that in greater context? I was born in Edinburgh. I now live on the Kent Coast. The distance between my forever home, and my childhood home? 452 miles. So, setting off right now, a squad of Marines could travel between the two (something I normally drive or get the train for) in a single day, and still not be knackered.

Though, another important caveat to such a feat? I’m fairly certain it’s confirmed that whilst Astartes are capable of all these wonderful things, they will eventually need rest. Proper rest. Even when doing the whole “let half your brain sleep at a time” thing isn’t a permanent solution. And presumably, the more of this sort of thing they’ve recently done, the longer that Proper Rest needs to be.

^Personally I think 20 mph is still too fast for a sustained effort. You can look up videos of what 20 mph running looks like and I personally don't find it feasible for long distances. The optics are weird.

Shorter distances, sure. Even superhuman distances to a degree. But there's a point where it doesn't feel right anymore.

Keeping a high marathon speed for hundreds of miles and showing up relatively fresh is good enough for me, personally.

Rest in baseline humans is needed to counter things like toxin build up in muscles and for whatever the heck it is we actually need sleep for.

Its conceivable to engineer such things out of humans. As an example, all of the migratory species that basically move non-stop have very different needs for rest and recovery to us.

Then there are the individual energy needs. In an attempt to one-up the Proclaimers, Marines may be able to walk 500 miles in a day, so do they need to be eating petrol to get sufficient energy?

Based on light googling, baseline humans burn 100 calories per mile. Ostriches are approximately twice as efficient, so 50 calories per mile seems reasonable. This energy expenditure could then be split between the marine and the armour.

Assuming an arbitrary 50/50 split (because why not) then 25 calories per mile is on the biological component. 12,500 calories, or 12.5kg of cottage cheese (for example). Baseline humans are apparently 20-30% efficient on food calories, so Marines might need 20-25kg of cottage cheese to march on Moscow. Seems feasible, but I feel sorry for whoever ahs to clean the armour afterwards.

After energy consumption, then we are into wear and tear on equipment. A Challenger 2 allegedly can go 550 miles before needing refuelled/significant maintenance. so the Marines might be fine, but their armour might be shot.

Could you stop sending your marines on Moscow?
As we talking about food, doesn't it written that marines eat marine's special foot which super effective and deadly for normal hooman? also they have some reserves of nutrition things in thair armour. So they have enought reserves to march from Glasgo to London?

The Marine’s armour contains a nutrient gruel thing, which keeps them fed without them having to actually have a meal as such.

On calorific expenditure? A Marine, even at rest, is going to burn more just on account of his size and muscle mass.

I dare say some kind of wizardry was done to help balance it out to some degree. But you’re still starting with a human template, so surely some constraints must remain, however stretched beyond their norm?

Digestion wise we know directly that a Marine’s is nearly 100% efficient. Which is part of why they can consume pretty much anything normally toxic to baseline humans, and ensures they produce little in the way of waste. Like how Vultures can eat even extremely rotten meat. Their stomach enzymes and acids are potent enough that the nasty little biting things that cause food poisoning just cannot survive.

On the Challenger Tank? To allow for even non-space-wizard-tech, how does a modern tank compare to say, a proven model used in WW2? Because that might give us an inkling of how future alloys and techniques might affect it - again without necessarily just going “space wizard tech did it”.

Not that that’s not a valid answer - but it’s not terribly interesting for a conversation.

Google's AI assistant thing suggests that Shermans might go as far as 2,500 miles before major maintenance/power train component replacement, although things like track pads might wear out more quickly on particularly rough ground.

Modern tanks are hangar queens due to the complexity of modern tech.

On digestion efficiency there are 2 component. How much of the chemical energy in the food can be converted into usable calories, and then how efficiently the physiology can convert that energy into mechanical work, rather than waste heat. Even with space magic, I'd be surprised if both of those components would be close to 100%.

Also good point on the body maintenance energy/nutrients. my estimate above didn't include that.

Also doesn't our lovely backpacks virtualy nuclear reactors supplying armour with very energy to work perpetualy?(at least in observable timeframe). also you guys do your math without considering armour has own muscles and do The lion's share of work if we talk about motion.

Google's Gemini regurgitated this:

A Space Marine's top running speed is highly variable but can reach approximately 50-60 miles per hour (80-100 km/h), with some instances documented at higher speeds. However, their practical running speed in combat is typically lower, around 35-45 mph (56-72 km/h), and for extended periods, they maintain speeds of 20-30 mph (32-48 km/h).

Thankfully, AI is never wrong.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Google's Gemini regurgitated this:

A Space Marine's top running speed is highly variable but can reach approximately 50-60 miles per hour (80-100 km/h), with some instances documented at higher speeds. However, their practical running speed in combat is typically lower, around 35-45 mph (56-72 km/h), and for extended periods, they maintain speeds of 20-30 mph (32-48 km/h).

Thankfully, AI is never wrong.

Agreed with AI

 kabaakaba wrote:
Also doesn't our lovely backpacks virtualy nuclear reactors supplying armour with very energy to work perpetualy?(at least in observable timeframe). also you guys do your math without considering armour has own muscles and do The lion's share of work if we talk about motion.

It’s…a bit of both.

Power Armour does essentially balance out its bulk with its internal structure. And it provides some extra oomph to the occupant.

But, and here’s what might the crucial bit? I don’t think it’s gyro balanced? So it’s still reliant on the occupant to keep themselves upright, and generally coordinated in terms of limbs. So, yes it probably does assist in running, and may allow for a faster pace. But that’s still limited by the wearer’s balance and that. You can only move your legs so fast before you trip yourself up (ref, toddlers!). So there must be a limitation on how much it can add.

I still favour a comfortable running speed around 20mph. It’s super human, without being ludicrous, as 35-45mph would be. At those speeds, and with the force concentrated across a smaller surface? A Marine needn’t slow down to kick someone’s head in. You’d just run straight through them.

I never talk about their combat speed. 35 mp/h in combat it's anime grade at the edge of common sense like One piece.
I talk only about march speed when you need put one feet after another again and again. ant there you need not balance. so there you just push as much with all power your PA adds to your own superhuan legs strength.

 kabaakaba wrote:
Also doesn't our lovely backpacks virtualy nuclear reactors supplying armour with very energy to work perpetualy?(at least in observable timeframe). also you guys do your math without considering armour has own muscles and do The lion's share of work if we talk about motion.

Incorrect. I assumed a 50-50 split between armour and wearer for energy expenditure. Other splits could be argued, but it’s so arbitrary I can’t be bothered.

Marines are from 33% to 50% proportionally larger than humans, meaning they at least should be 33% to 50% faster at running, because bigger legs means longer running gait.

There’s also the power of their bodies.

With a punch, a Marine can push your face out the back of your head. Or at least shatter the front of your skull. With a kick? Pretty confident they could hoof your bonce right off your shoulders;

Turn that same strength to propelling themselves around? That suggests a solid turn of speed.

Maybe? they are also much heavier than humans, so the extra strength is slowed down by the extra mass.

EDIT: Looking at the actual numbers, humans can reach into the 40km/h, with the fastest recorded speed being 44.72km/h.
If we multiply that by Astartes' size advantage we get into the 60km/h range, so a 60km/h Space Marine isn't really than insane, just picture a 1.333% times larger Usain Bolt.

 Tyran wrote:
Maybe? they are also much heavier than humans, so the extra strength is slowed down by the extra mass.

EDIT: Looking at the actual numbers, humans can reach into the 40km/h, with the fastest recorded speed being 44.72km/h.
If we multiply that by Astartes' size advantage we get into the 60km/h range, so a 60km/h Space Marine isn't really than insane, just picture a 1.333% times larger Usain Bolt.

I don't think speed works like that. Shaq isn't faster than Bolt because he's bigger, nor is a lion faster than a cheetah because it's stronger. Size and strength CAN help, but it doesn't automatically do so.

Besides, when Marine physiology was being designed, its very possible that strength, endurance and reaction speeds were optimised for, at the expense of maximising flat out running potential.

Again, on the table they still have a move rate of "human", and Eldar are faster. If Marines were capable of 60kph that just wouldn't be the case. Even the 40kph thing I find somewhat sus, because it's only a small number of people who can even hit 20mph (32kph). I think stsrting off with Bolt as a baseline is already a big assumption.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I don't think speed works like that. Shaq isn't faster than Bolt because he's bigger, nor is a lion faster than a cheetah because it's stronger. Size and strength CAN help, but it doesn't automatically do so.

Standard biology runs into the square cube law issue, strength doesn't fully scale with size (which is why ants can lift 50 times their weight). Presumably the bs biology of the Space Marines plus their power armor means they can somewhat bypass that issue: a Marine is 10-15 of times heavier than a normal human, they are more than 10-15 times stronger (at least based on some of their feats).

Besides, when Marine physiology was being designed, its very possible that strength, endurance and reaction speeds were optimised for, at the expense of maximising flat out running potential.

Again, on the table they still have a move rate of "human", and Eldar are faster. If Marines were capable of 60kph that just wouldn't be the case. Even the 40kph thing I find somewhat sus, because it's only a small number of people who can even hit 20mph (32kph). I think stsrting off with Bolt as a baseline is already a big assumption.

The tabletop has explicitly supersonic aircraft max speed at 70-80", if we scale down from that then Marines run at a hundred kph, which would be stupid.

The table is one thing, the lore is another.

 Tyran wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I don't think speed works like that. Shaq isn't faster than Bolt because he's bigger, nor is a lion faster than a cheetah because it's stronger. Size and strength CAN help, but it doesn't automatically do so.

Standard biology runs into the square cube law issue, strength doesn't fully scale with size (which is why ants can lift 50 times their weight). Presumably the bs biology of the Space Marines plus their power armor means they can somewhat bypass that issue: a Marine is 10-15 of times heavier than a normal human, they are more than 10-15 times stronger (at least based on some of their feats).

Is the source for 10-15 times as strong Black Library? Because I have some news for you...

 Tyran wrote:

Besides, when Marine physiology was being designed, its very possible that strength, endurance and reaction speeds were optimised for, at the expense of maximising flat out running potential.

Again, on the table they still have a move rate of "human", and Eldar are faster. If Marines were capable of 60kph that just wouldn't be the case. Even the 40kph thing I find somewhat sus, because it's only a small number of people who can even hit 20mph (32kph). I think stsrting off with Bolt as a baseline is already a big assumption.

The tabletop has explicitly supersonic aircraft max speed at 70-80", if we scale down from that then Marines run at a hundred kph, which would be stupid.

Supersonic aircraft numbers are things I'm very comfortable tossing out by way of the nonlinear space the table operates in (after all, a rifle only shoots 4 lengths of a tank), and the way flyers are crammed awkwardly into 40k. Not to mention how thwy behave very differently in another system, Epic.

The table is one thing, the lore is another.

It's true! The game is consistent and the lore is not. The game is consistent in putting Marines at a similar speed to humans, and slower than Eldar (and horses!). Wheras the lore throws totally goofy scenarios around for dramatic effect.

Current Rough Rider movement is 12", btw. Twice as fast as a Marine.