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Hey all,

I have been a fan of 40k for quite some time and have a good sized, nicely painted, Imperial Guard army.  Unfortunately, I am not a very good list builder and don't yet have the experience to know what will work well and what won't.  So, I thought I'd reach out the masses here that surpass my knowledge and experience.  Any help and guidance is greatly appreciated.

List sizes:
1000: hopefully for a large multi-player game here locally in the near future
1850: for local RTTs
2000: to play against a friend of mine who plays weapon team heavy IG and Necrons

What I currently have:
9 Chimeras
1 Hellhound
2 Lehman Russes
1 Demolisher
1 Basilisk
6 Sentinels (3 Lascannon, 3 Autocannon)
12 - 10 man infantry squads (variety of special weapons to choose from)
6 Mortar teams
4 Lascannon teams
4 Heavy bolter teams
4 Autocannon teams
Commisars, Priests, Psykers
Engineseer & drones
Assassins
4 Snipers

I am working on some additional models, but I figure I have enough to make something competitive out of, don't I?!?  I'm hoping another IG player out there can help me create a solid list and maybe impart some tactical advice.

Thanks all!
Jason

Hmmm...with only 12 heavy weapons, you'll have to load up on vehicles for the larger lists. Maybe even take Mechanized doctrine with all those Chimeras.

I would leave the Commissars, Priests, Psykers, Enginseer, Assassins, Snipers on the shelf. Possibly the Mortars too, unless you play against a lot of Orks and Nids.

Other than that, peruse the plethora of other IG lists on this forum for ideas. You've got enough tankage to run whatever you like in HS (Basi + 2x Russ, or Demolisher + 2x Russ, or Basi+Demolisher+Russ). Definitely take the Hellhound, and consider sticking a heavy stubber on it.

You can run one Armoured Fist squad to fill one of your required troop slots, and then one platoon as your other one (add squads as necessary as the point value of your games go up). Fill the line squads with Lascannons first, Autocannons second, then Heavy Bolters. If you need to, attach a Fire Support squad of Heavy Bolters to your HQ. Your Platoon command should have 4 flamers / 4 plasmas / 4 meltas and maybe a Chimera to ride in. Your HQ command should have a Flag and hide near your line squads, but out of LOS. Possibly throw a mortar in your HQ squad just for fun.

Only stick the Lascannon sentinels in if you're desperate to fill points. With 3 Autocannon Sentinels, run 1 in your HQ, and 2 as separate FA units. Deploy on the flanks (dead sentinels are really good at blocking your own LOS) and scout up behind terrain - then walk into it to get obscured while you try for side shots on enemy armour.

Never take only one vehicle with a single AV. If you can't afford two AV14 tanks, then don't take any - ie in 1000 points, maybe just stick with the Basilisk and infantry. Ditto, don't field the Hellhound without one or two Chimeras running around as extra AV12 distraction.

Hope this helped!

That is good advice, thank you. I can see some of the things I have been doing wrong in your comments already. If you don't mind, I'd like to probe your comments a bit further so I understand the why's and why not's...

Ideally then, you suggest that I would field all infantry squads with Lascannon's correct? I can see that I have way to many mortars in my arsenal. Some forge world must have been having a fire sale...

Can you explain your Sentinel comments a bit more? Why not go with the Lascannon models? too many points, or not effective given the fast attack / scout role of a Sentinel? You suggest separating them into units of their own to avoid hits spilling over from one to another? Good suggestions about where to deploy them, so thank you.

I usually field my HQ with 4 plasmas, although I don't think I use them to full effect at times. Practice, practice, practice.

Thanks for the advice and input Strangelooper.

I personally use mostly lascannon sentinels. Which of the 2 alternatives you should use is up to the rest of the list. I personally think you should use 2 lasc sentinels and then either an autocannon sentinel or a lascannon sentinel. Also, to add some early-game sniping power you might consider a hunter-seeker missile on a sentinel. Haven't playtested though, been tied up in the warp with my brand new Chaos army

Below is a table simply showing the propability of lascannon and autocannon scoring at least a glancing hit when fired with BS3. Note, that autocannons both shots are included. Chance of a BS 3 lascannon shot penetrating av14 is 8%.

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 250px" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 align=left border=1> <TBODY> <TR> <TD></TD> <TD>av10</TD> <TD>av11</TD> <TD>av12</TD> <TD>av13</TD> <TD>av14</TD></TR> <TR> <TD>Lascan.</TD> <TD>0.50</TD> <TD>0.42</TD> <TD>0.33</TD> <TD>0.25</TD> <TD>0.17</TD></TR> <TR> <TD>Autoc.</TD> <TD>0.67</TD> <TD>0.50</TD> <TD>0.33</TD> <TD>0.17</TD> <TD>--</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

Now, Sentinels are gonna be your only moving AT-weapons, aside from chimeras and hellhounds. Your heavy tanks will mostly stay put. I think lascannon fits the vehicle-sniping role much better. Also, BS 3 Autocannon kills 0,277778 marines a turn, while Lascannon gets 0,416667. Also, agains most characters the lascannon is better.

A single Sentinel can hug cover very well (or skulk behind your Leman Russes , while 2 Sentinels can't find cover without limiting their field of fire. A single sentinel should ideally be placed so that it can only be seen from the target vehicle/unit. Additionallym if the target is, say, a Devastator squad, Sentinels can sometimes be placed so that no heavy weapon from the Dev squad can see the Sentinel, which still can snipe at a lone marine. So, sniping from cover, no exposure. Two sentinels cant do this.

Also, if you're Deep Striking the Sentinels, the one Sentinel in your HQ gets to DS only if your HQ does the same. A good thing to remember.

About mortars: I don't think theyre worth it. I'd rather take counter-assaulters, ratlings or _anything else_ with those points.

-Touko "Squirreli" Kästämä

Thanks Squirreli. That all maked sense, and is good advice. I hadn't thought about the deep strike issue if attached to the HQ. What are your thoughts on a fully mechanized IG army. Potential to be worthwhile? or just a waste of points?

A blank canvass with a wide selection of models.

I think that with what you've got you've got a lot of choices. The only questions I have are:

1. What special weapons do you have?
2. What HQ models do you have (Officers that is, not specials like Psykers and whatnot)?
3. If you needed to, could you get more Lascannons (2-4 more at most)?

Other than that you have a broad range or pretty much everything, so assuming we can get a few more details about the specifics above we should be able to help.

BYE

Thanks for the assistance. Let's see if this helps:

1. I have 6 Plasmas, 4 Rocket teams, 5 Grenade launchers, 4 Flamers
2. I have Yarrick, 4 Commisars, Various standard Steel Legion Lt./Cmdr models. Is there something specific you were hoping I had? I've never felt my HQ choice helped me much, so maybe I lack a good choice.
3. I certainly could go for more lascannons. I'm wide open, what I listed is just what I have so far

Thanks in advance H.B.M.C.

I usually include at least 6 lascannons in my IG-armies, if they're footsloggers. If im going mostly mechanized, then 4-5 might do the trick, since their response to enemy movement is a bit better. You should also look into using a company standard in your HQ, if you're footslogging. Those morale test rerolls in your HQ's Ld-bubble for 11pts are a deal.

About Mechanized:

The doctrine doesn't seem to be worth it, but using Grenadiers with Chimeras for troops seems viable. This way you don't have a minimum number of chimeras, so you can have a lot more goodies. The infantry squads aren't much good anyway, since with IG you should go either inf-heavy or vehicle-heavy. You don't want to make your chimeras open-topped by shooting from them, and if the squads have disembarked, the positioning must be very careful if theyre to fire AND stay alive. If you decide to go vehicle-heavy, you should have 3-4 lasc sentinels in the army, since the chimeras can pour out anti-infantry-dakka out at a good rate (9 shots a turn for 100pts - the most cost-effective battle tank in the game

My almost-mechanized armies usually start with 2 russes, 1 demolisher, 3 lasc sentinels and 2 chimera grenadier squads with plasmaguns. Often the HQ just gets autocannon and sits somewhere where they can take some single shots and aren't in much danger. I usually use deep strikers, either sentinels or hardened veterans. Hellhound isn't worth it (unless its a cityfight) since the chimeras do the same job and don't take up a precious fast attack slot. Rough Riders and Ogryns are a big mystery for me, haven't gotten around to painting them battleready yet, but im expecting the roughriders to perform rather well.

The thing about mecha-IG I like most is their un-IG-like ability to cope with the assaulters who get into your lines: infantry assaulting tanks can still be shot at. This helps a lot, since traditional IG just weeps as all it's firing lanes are blocked by 1-2 close combats.

On final note, you can have 4 AV14 vehicles in a "normal" IG list by taking an inquisitor as an ally from codex DH. Did it in one tournament, had a Grey Knight Grand Master in the 'raider AND a great time

-Touko "Squirreli" Kästämä

I really didn't know that about Grenadiers, I will have to go back and read up a bit more. I always hated (although it makes sense from a military perspective) having to take a Chimera for absolutely everything. I guess that's why they call it mechanized though, huh... That might be a good middle ground.

I do have access to about 2000 pts of similarly painted DH as well, and have played with a few combos. I may just have to try out your suggestion and go with the 4 AV14's!

By the way, what exactly is the benefit of taking snipers? I must be missing something... They can hit pretty well, but they are almost always bounce off armor, right? Is there something they are good against that I am just not familiar with, or are they really are useless as I am perceiving them?

The doctrine doesn't seem to be worth it

How untrue that is. Mechanised lists are very powerful. Constructed correctly, Mechanised can be more powerful than most other Guard configurations.

but using Grenadiers with Chimeras for troops seems viable

Grenadiers themselves are hardly viable. Putting them in Chimeras makes them better, but hardly worth it. They're just expensive Guardsmen.

The infantry squads aren't much good anyway

Infantry Squads are the bread & butter of the Guard army. Games are won and lost on the lives of your infantry. They are 10-wound heavy weapons, and they do their job very well.

Hellhound isn't worth it

Incorrect. The Hellhound is an exceptional vehicle with a high-accuracy S6 AP4 gun that ignores cover. By themselves with a few Chimeras to run interference, or in a group. They are very dangerous.

BYE

By the way, what exactly is the benefit of taking snipers?

There isn't one. Of the 5 shots a game that hit, 2-3 will wound, and if you're lucky you'll kill a Marine. They're worthless weapons. Don't bother.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 07/26/2006 10:27 PM

There isn't one. Of the 5 shots a game that hit, 2-3 will wound, and if you're lucky you'll kill a Marine. They're worthless weapons. Don't bother.

BYE

OK, so at least I wasn't missing something... I like the models and have tried using them a few times to little or no effect...

Thanks,
Jason

How untrue that is. Mechanised lists are very powerful. Constructed correctly, Mechanised can be more powerful than most other Guard configurations.

At a high level would you mind sharing your thoughts on what make an effective mechanized list?  What to take, what not to take, complimentary doctrines, etc...  Would you normally begin mounted, or unmounted? 

Thanks,
Jason

To H.B.M.C.

You have some very strict doctrines about how IG should work, and im hoping you could elaborate a little...

I was talking about all-vehicle lists with as few troopers as possible, without the list being actual Armoured Company. By replacing your mech. platoons with chimera-grenadiers, you can have a mech. army at much fewer points. Having the mechanized doctrine forces you to have at least 5 squads and 5 chimeras, for 800-900pts. I fail to see, why you consider grenadiers unviable when used in such a way. What you say is true for infantry-heavy lists, but not for this. 2x6 grenadiers with 2 plasmaguns and chimeras costs 360pts. Sure, the Grenadiers aren't very effective, but do they have to, when you can spend the points you saved for something entirely else. Also, having no infantry visible prevents everything under S6 from damaging you (sentinels hidden, deep strikes excluded).

Also, hellhound is affective and properly used can be devastating. However, a big load of chimeras does the same thing, which is dealing out a lot of dakka vs non-power-armoured foes. Now, if you have a gakload of chimeras and thus - dakka - what real need do you have for the hellhound? It has the disadvantages of costing more and taking up a fast attack slot. Im not saying it is useless, im saying it often isn't necessary or even justifiable in an army list.

There are many types of IG armies and what goes for one doesn't necessarily go for the others.

-Touko "Squirreli" Kästämä

" I fail to see, why you consider grenadiers unviable when used in such a way. What you say is true for infantry-heavy lists, but not for this. 2x6 grenadiers with 2 plasmaguns and chimeras costs 360pts. Sure, the Grenadiers aren't very effective,"

dude, you just answered yourself?!

you lose all of your nonvehicle mounted heavy weapons is another good reason.

"what real need do you have for the hellhound?"

sometimes, just the sheer terror factor. especially against hoard armies.

alarmingrick: very clever twist of words.

The whole idea with those grenadiers is to present NO infantry targets at all, leaving most of the opponents weapons completely useless. Now, if you're only going to get a gakload of vehicles, why do you want footslogger guardsmen there as easy targets? You can have only a few squads of them, since you have to get chimeras for every one of them. Where is the use in having to spend all those points on free targets for the opponent? The whole point in this was to lose infantry targets, thus: "you lose all of your nonvehicle mounted heavy weapons". Sure, basic Mechanized is usable at some point sizes but not in every one. The grenadier approach allows for less compulsory troops & chimeras.

-Touko "Squirreli" Kästämä

i see where you're coming from, but the few troops you're going to have are going

to be very pricey. and they're going to die just as horribly as the cheaper ones.

i don't see it as a "good" trade-off paying more points for less of something,imho.

The whole idea with those grenadiers is to present NO infantry targets at all, leaving most of the opponents weapons completely useless.

If that is what you are after, why not use Armored company? Save's you the trouble of having 360 points of ineffective junk.

Now, if you're only going to get a gakload of vehicles, why do you want footslogger guardsmen there as easy targets?

First off, you want footsloggers because they're a really good way to field heavy weapons, specifically lascannons. There's not many other options in the iG list if you're not taking footsloggers. Secondly, why would they be easy targets? Is there no cover? If basic weaponry is an issue, can I not keep the squad in the chimera and shoot from the hatch?

You can have only a few squads of them, since you have to get chimeras for every one of them.

You can easily fit 4 squads of guardsman and 2 special weapon teams in an 1850 list, with room to spare for lemans, roughriders or anything else you might fancy (like more guardsman and lascannons).

The grenadier approach allows for less compulsory troops & chimeras.

And what, exactly, are you going to do with the remaining points? I'm actually very curious.

Well, that 360 points includes 2 chimeras, which I gather are not ineffective junk. Dunno, maybe they are?. Also, you can drop the grenadier squad size to 5, which makes them compare quite favourably to, say, a command squad with 2 plasmaguns.

1850pts of course is a different deal and I make no claim of grenadier effectiveness with that point limit. My experience is mostly from 1500pts games in this edition. But even in 1500pts, for the remaining points you might want a full heavy support tank compliment, some rough riders, maybe some more squads in chimeras, lascannon sentinels? Then again, if it's to be 1850pts you might want to go straight for mechanized infantry.

-Touko "Squirreli" Kästämä

The whole idea with those grenadiers is to present NO infantry targets at all, leaving most of the opponents weapons completely useless.

If you want to show no Infantry to the enemy, play Russ-Hull-Only Armoured Company. That removes S7 and below weapons from the equasion.

And I think you'll find most Guard players are of the opinion that Guard Infantry are expendable, and therefore you don't have to hide them, nor take over-costed Grenadiers to 'hide' your Infantry. Guard are a horde army (even sometimes with Mecahnised if you tweak it enough). They exist with oodles of Infantry. One of the most powerful Guard formations is the All Infantry army, that does the opposite of the All-Russ AC army, by making anti-tank weapons useless.

And you should be taking troops so that you can use them. You should never take a unit because it is easier or more cost effective to 'hide'. Every unit's gotta have a purpose to make it worthwhile. 'Surviving' is not a purpose.

BYE

All good feedback, thanks. I like the concept of going either all armor to negate <S6 weapons, or the opposite by going all infantry and making anti-tank weapons innefective. A couple of follow-up questions for you guys. >

Armored company - Is this a standard list? I thought in the previous edition you needed opponent's approval, or that most events didn't allow them... Has this changed?

All infantry / horde - How do you avoide getting destroyed when they reach your lines? My previous experiences have all been that once I get engaged, the enemy goes from unit to unit chewing me apart...

"All good feedback, thanks. I like the concept of going either all armor to negate <S6 >

Armored company - Is this a standard list?"

There are two. The Armoured Company lists you can get from the GW website, and the Armoured Battlegroup list from Imperial Armour Volume 1. I know the one from IA is complete legal. The AC list from the GW website is Chapter Approved, so legal, and I cannot remember seeing an 'Optional' or 'Trial' notice on them.

I thought in the previous edition you needed opponent's approval, or that most events didn't allow them... Has this changed?

You don't need permission for either list, but it is true that most events don't allow them. Not a bad army to have as a side army (as you don't need many models to make an 1850 list), and you can use some of the vehicles from it in your normal Guard army.

"All infantry / horde - How do you avoide getting destroyed when they reach your lines? My previous experiences have all been that once I get engaged, the enemy goes from unit to unit chewing me apart..."

You ensure that you have enough men to take the assault and/or swarm in at once to take them on. Even good assault units have trouble when 4 squads of Guardsmen charge them. Guard Counter Assault 101.

Plus you can also space units out so that follow ups don't reach new squads. You can use buffer units like Conscripts. You can use things like Rough Riders to decimate incoming units before they hit. You can use cheap, throwaway Command Sections w/4 Flamers or SWSs with Demo Charges to weaken enemy units.

BYE

I always wrote Rough Riders off as a non factor. I have now seen several mentions of them having a key role in many IG armies, correct? I may just have to run out and get a unit. Is there any particular way to equip or use them that I should be thinking about? The theme of horseback troops doesn't really fit with Steel Legion obviously though... I wonder if there is some sort of conversion I could do. Mechanical horses maybe?

Bikes are always good, or humvee's.

One rather basic question that I just want to clarify. If you have a Heavy Weapon squad of say 3 Lascannons, and take 3 wounds from enemy fire. Do you remove the 3 "helpers", or one full base and another has a wound? Just want to make sure I play it correctly.

Posted By ironforge on 07/28/2006 12:28 PM
One rather basic question that I just want to clarify. If you have a Heavy Weapon squad of say 3 Lascannons, and take 3 wounds from enemy fire. Do you remove the 3 "helpers", or one full base and another has a wound? Just want to make sure I play it correctly.

Fortunately, IG heavy weapons teams are not multi-wound models; you can kill off the 3 loaders, and keep your 3 big guns.

Some in general, overview advice.

First, fully mechanized guard can be VERY effective, particularly in a "take all comers" environment. You'll have more armor facing the enemy than he will be expecting, and likely more than he will be equipped to deal with, as long as you're careful.

The backbone to the Mechanized Guard is the humble Chimera. Running from 85 pts (basic loadout: multilaser & heavy bolter) to as much as 98 (extra armor, smoke launchers, and rough terrain mod), the Chimera offers front armor that is impervious to all small-arms fire, and even to some heavier weaponry (heavy bolters, for example).

Rule number 1: USE the front armor. The sides and back, praise the Emperor, are made of tissue paper.

The Chimera got a nice boost in fourth edition. After moving 6", all weaponry remains operational. When you've got between 5 and 9 Chimerae in your force, you have more mobile firepower than just about any opponent, and effective out ot 36".

Rule number 2: Use your mobility to achieve pre-planned objectives. Don't just drive around because you can - plan ahead, to avoid blocking your own movement and fire lanes.

Unfortunately, the category of transport vehicles, as a whole, got hindered by 4th edition rules. If your men are inside the Chimera, particularly if its in motion, they are at great risk. Also, while driving, the firepower of the transported squad is degraded - they cannot fire their heavy weapon, which is why you brought them along.

Rule number 3: Troops don't need to be inside their transports, unless there is a good reason for them to be. Keep the squad within 8" of the ramp for rapid redeployment, if needed, and let them enjoy the fresh air.

We're talking about 3 or 4 different point levels, each of which requires a little variation in your army list and tactical approach.

At 1000 pts, the Mechanized Guard is a very limited force. By the time you buy the compulsory HQ, Platoon, and Armored Fist, you've spent nearly all of your 1000 pts. For this level, I'd actually recommend semi-mechanized: dismount the platoon line squads, but keep the AF and one or both of the officers' transports. Use the surplus points for something flashy - a hellhound, or your favorite piece of Ordnance. Often, these size games are played on 4'x4' tables, which is ideal for a Demolisher.

At 1500 pts, the Mechanized Guard comes into its own. You can add a squad or two to your platoon; alternatively, for an infantry-heavy force, turn the AF squad into a second platoon, instead. In any case, you're probably looking at 6-8 Chimerae at this point. Add your ordnance - I'll often run with just a Demolisher and a Basilisk at this level, but you can squeeze the third heavy in. Fill remaining points with Hellhounds, or with Rough Riders.

At 1850, it's even better. Fill the 3rd heavy. Fill your Fast Attack (2 Hellhounds are great together). Add troop squads to taste; keep breaking platoons apart, and keep them min-sized to fill more force org slots.

At 2000, much the same. For variety, you can consider a squad of Hardened Vets with melta guns - they are a suicide team. Drive up, blast a target with lots of melta goodness, and die gloriously. A platoon command squad can serve the same role, and most lists benefit from including such - keeps the Land Raiders and independent characters honest.

Weapon selection: lascannons. Lascannons and plasma guns. The Chimera offers you a tremendous amount of anti-infantry firepower, and the multilaser is the best weapon available for shooting AV 10 or 11 vehicles. When facing AV 12 (cursed Eldar), it's still better than a lascannon. You need those infantry weapon slots for AP 2 firepower, and for weapons to deal with the truly large targets (AV 13+, T6+ monstrous creatures with good saves).

Thanks for the great level of detail, advice on all sized armies, and 3 rules to live (and die) by. I am getting a pretty good list together of what I am missing, and should be going shopping soon! A couple of quick questions:

- Can you take Rough Riders in a mech list? Do they need a Chimera (which makes no sense) or are they considered to be mechanized/mobile already?

- Can any command group take a vehicle without the full force being mechanized? I don't know why, but I thought it was all or none (except AF squads of course)

- You mention some of the better options to take on the Chimeras. Would you suggest making any mandatory, or just take them as points allow?

"Add troop squads to taste; keep breaking platoons apart, and keep them min-sized to fill more force org slots"

Why would you want to do this? To get more 5 man HQ squads instead of 10 man las/plas squads?!!! I'd propose the opposite - you want a AF squad and a 5 squad platoon and improved comms for escalation. Use that reroll to ensure that 6 chimera platoon comes out of reserve together on the first available turn.