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That does indeed seem to be the case, then. Thank you. That'd be in 91 then, two years before 2nd edition was released. I guess referring to an issue of a magazine printed two years ago and for the previous edition was just how they rolled back then.
While the rules in WD were indeed for Rogue Trader, they're written in such a way as to be compatible with 2nd ed.
I never saw anyone use them, though... we all just treated sonic blasters as storm bolters (as per the Black Codex) until the Chaos codex was released.
It is worth keeping in mind that Rogue Trader at the end was pretty far from Rogue Trader at the beginning.
Which for me is part of the appeal of reading through its various collected volumes in order. To be able to map the evolution and refinement, without jumps between editions is really interesting, especially as a fair few of the articles offer a designer’s commentary as to why the changes were being introduced.
For instance, Marines received changes to make them feel more elite. Tougher, stronger, better armour.
Now having a physical collection like wot I gathered back in…2020, I think, is expensive, and only getting more so as Oldhammer comes ever more in vogue, But if you can find PDF versions it’s all definitely worth a read. Even the First Book Of The Astronomicon, which is well messy!
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To me, the biggest appeal of Rogue Trader is its open-endedness. You can basically create rules for anything for it. Now, this does also unfortunately mean that a GM of sorts is mandatory for playing it, but it has potential like no other 40K ruleset since.
As I have dug more deeply into oldhammer resources and lore, it is becoming clear to me that the older editions differed from the new ones in one very fundamental way: All the rules, missions and other resources were chaotically scattered across the main rulebook, campaign books, and WD, and I doubt many people had access to everythning from those 3 food groups. Therefore, peoples impressions on the games differ wildly, often no doubt reflected by the amount of resources they themselves played/had access to. Would be very interesting to see all the material for any given edition of the game compiled into a single, 100% comprehensive resource, including all the commentary and extras that were ever published for em.
The problem lies in the fact that only GW themselves could pull off such a thing long-term, as including everything an edition included would also require access to all the IP protected assets, such as artwork etc.. I mean, take a look at something like the Space Hulk bible.. it looks hideous and is a pain to read
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2024/05/03 10:06:19
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
tauist wrote: To me, the biggest appeal of Rogue Trader is its open-endedness. You can basically create rules for anything for it. Now, this does also unfortunately mean that a GM of sorts is mandatory for playing it, but it has potential like no other 40K ruleset since.
As I have dug more deeply into oldhammer resources and lore, it is becoming clear to me that the older editions differed from the new ones in one very fundamental way: All the rules, missions and other resources were chaotically scattered across the main rulebook, campaign books, and WD, and I doubt many people had access to everythning from those 3 food groups. Therefore, peoples impressions on the games differ wildly, often no doubt reflected by the amount of resources they themselves played/had access to. Would be very interesting to see all the material for any given edition of the game compiled into a single, 100% comprehensive resource, including all the commentary and extras that were ever published for em.
The problem lies in the fact that only GW themselves could pull off such a thing long-term, as including everything an edition included would also require access to all the IP protected assets, such as artwork etc.. I mean, take a look at something like the Space Hulk bible.. it looks hideous and is a pain to read
Some editions would be a particular nightmare for this- 3rd and 7th come to mind due to the sheer number of publications.
Plus, a lot was published on GWs old websites, and only a fraction of this has been saved on internet archives. Many of those rules are simply not available to the general public anymore.
As an example: the 3rd edition rules for Ork teleporta mobz appeared on the website for the Armageddon global campaign. These were not printed anywhere else to my knowledge.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/05/03 11:49:30
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
tauist wrote: To me, the biggest appeal of Rogue Trader is its open-endedness. You can basically create rules for anything for it. Now, this does also unfortunately mean that a GM of sorts is mandatory for playing it, but it has potential like no other 40K ruleset since.
As I have dug more deeply into oldhammer resources and lore, it is becoming clear to me that the older editions differed from the new ones in one very fundamental way: All the rules, missions and other resources were chaotically scattered across the main rulebook, campaign books, and WD, and I doubt many people had access to everythning from those 3 food groups. Therefore, peoples impressions on the games differ wildly, often no doubt reflected by the amount of resources they themselves played/had access to. Would be very interesting to see all the material for any given edition of the game compiled into a single, 100% comprehensive resource, including all the commentary and extras that were ever published for em.
The problem lies in the fact that only GW themselves could pull off such a thing long-term, as including everything an edition included would also require access to all the IP protected assets, such as artwork etc.. I mean, take a look at something like the Space Hulk bible.. it looks hideous and is a pain to read
This is why my Oldhammer dream-of-dreams isn't a reprinting of any specific model or material but a computer game that compiles RT, WHFB 3rd ed and the various additional rules(Siege, Realm of Chaos, army lists etc) into one neat package sold on Steam and using their servers for multiplayer. With, of course, a solid mission generator and editor. Pick an appropriately low-fi aesthetic for the graphics, make sure it runs smooth as butter and off you go. Day 1 purchase. I'd buy it for my friends online too.
tauist wrote: To me, the biggest appeal of Rogue Trader is its open-endedness. You can basically create rules for anything for it. Now, this does also unfortunately mean that a GM of sorts is mandatory for playing it, but it has potential like no other 40K ruleset since.
As I have dug more deeply into oldhammer resources and lore, it is becoming clear to me that the older editions differed from the new ones in one very fundamental way: All the rules, missions and other resources were chaotically scattered across the main rulebook, campaign books, and WD, and I doubt many people had access to everythning from those 3 food groups. Therefore, peoples impressions on the games differ wildly, often no doubt reflected by the amount of resources they themselves played/had access to. Would be very interesting to see all the material for any given edition of the game compiled into a single, 100% comprehensive resource, including all the commentary and extras that were ever published for em.
The problem lies in the fact that only GW themselves could pull off such a thing long-term, as including everything an edition included would also require access to all the IP protected assets, such as artwork etc.. I mean, take a look at something like the Space Hulk bible.. it looks hideous and is a pain to read
Some editions would be a particular nightmare for this- 3rd and 7th come to mind due to the sheer number of publications.
Plus, a lot was published on GWs old websites, and only a fraction of this has been saved on internet archives. Many of those rules are simply not available to the general public anymore.
As an example: the 3rd edition rules for Ork teleporta mobz appeared on the website for the Armageddon global campaign. These were not printed anywhere else to my knowledge.
Tell me about it. I'm still trying to find the comp packes from GW sanctioned events that were used to score army comp in Fantasy and 40K...
Did some guard on guard action at 2K points. 5 objectives.
My opponent was having a bad dice day. by the end of turn 3 he had managed to immobilize a chimer and blow the autocannons off the the other 2. in return he lost a centaur, an elite tank and his bane blade. i ended up never getting any of my infantry out of the transports before he called it.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear
2024/05/12 22:26:33
Subject: Re:The 40K- all things old editions topic.
We did the rematch game of the previous. this time around my dice were not as happy with me. we again had 5 objectives on a space marine outpost table. he managed to kill all of my basic guardsman save 3 and all my chimeras, i still managed to give him a good fight taking out his centaur, command squad and storm troopers scoring 1 objective to his 2.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear
I've got the models for a Demiurg force (I loved Squats in 2e, but I think the idea of them as a proper Xenos faction is cooler nowadays).
Mantic Forgefathers, the ones in the heavy armour suits with enclosed helmets, and their versions of terminators, Iron Ancestors, and then some of the Vermyn tunneling tanks and a Forgefather tank.
Looking at my options to play them in 3e with minimal messing, I think 3e Salamanders work best - lots of meltas and flamers, which fits with my conception, tough and well armoured but a bit slower than the average space marine.
Hero: Space Marine Captain Living Ancestor: Salamanders Librarian Exo Armour: Terminators Forgefather Squads: Salamanders Tactical Squads Forgefather Squads with Jump Packs: Salamanders Assault Squads Forgefather Squads with Heavy Weapons: Devastators Iron Ancestor: Dreadnaught Forgefather Tank: Predator
Then use the VDR to make a tunnelling Rhino for the tunnellers and I think it works really well. Any arguments for using a different 3rd-7th edition and codex?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/05/18 17:14:49
I love the mantic forge fathers stuff! have a bit of it myself.
As for the drill i would just use the rules for the termite assault drill. for codexes if you want to use the salamanders the codex armageddon is the most flavorful followed by the 4th ed space marine codex trait system as the best representations IMHO. as far as rules go 5th ed is my gold standard as i pointed out in the very first post of this topic so many years ago.
P.S. i also love the demiurg ships in BFG. but i only have space for my chaos fleet. i leave them up to the TAU player in the group.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/05/18 18:17:05
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear
So, generally what was the power levels of factions at the end of 9th ed? thinking of just going back to play that sometime, as well as dabbling in 7th ed and such.
Tiger9gamer wrote: So, generally what was the power levels of factions at the end of 9th ed? thinking of just going back to play that sometime, as well as dabbling in 7th ed and such.
Depends on how much of a jerk you want to be, like 9th ed stratagems 7th ed had it's own spam in the formations department. i recommend avoiding them.
If you really want to enjoy oldhammer you need to focus on thematic play. build and play the armies the way they are supposed to work in the lore. the older editions used the FOC but also allowed you to take just about any unit you liked and still have a chance to win given the way objectives worked. you need to put the thought of "power level" completely out of your mind or you will have a terrible experience.
Keep in mind that everything post 8th ed. is a completely different game. That happens to just use some of the same models.
If your more interested in 9th you might want to do a topic search. there are more than enough of them on DAKKA to break down the factions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/05/21 17:03:32
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear
Tiger9gamer wrote: So, generally what was the power levels of factions at the end of 9th ed? thinking of just going back to play that sometime, as well as dabbling in 7th ed and such.
Depends on how much of a jerk you want to be, like 9th ed stratagems 7th ed had it's own spam in the formations department. i recommend avoiding them.
If you really want to enjoy oldhammer you need to focus on thematic play. build and play the armies the way they are supposed to work in the lore. the older editions used the FOC but also allowed you to take just about any unit you liked and still have a chance to win given the way objectives worked. you need to put the thought of "power level" completely out of your mind or you will have a terrible experience.
Keep in mind that everything post 8th ed. is a completely different game. That happens to just use some of the same models.
If your more interested in 9th you might want to do a topic search. there are more than enough of them on DAKKA to break down the factions.
I'll keep the 9th edition topic search in mind, but yea I am starting to get into 7th ed gaming. I am going to try and avoid formations with the small group i'm forming, but other people are interested in trying some stuff they never used back then. I am trying to get them to check out prohammer as well!
but yea, I think thematic play is what I would be mainly focused on, but I am also an admec player through and through. I like my knights, I like my skitarii, and I like my robots. I just like having options for fun, and I like the kind of stuff 9th and 7th bring in different ways
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh yea, I stopped playing 9th edition before nephlim landed. What is the deal with super heavy auxillary detachments in warzone nephlim?
Like, If I wanna bring an imperial knight with my admec, will it still cost me 3cp?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/05/22 00:24:20
413th Lucius Exterminaton Legion- 4,000pts
Atalurnos Fleetbreaker's Akhelian Corps- 2500pts
2024/05/22 06:08:33
Subject: Re:The 40K- all things old editions topic.
I run a 7th ed admech army in our 5th edition games. it is quite fun. i built it around the lucius FW since i own a macharius and they make them there. so i can add it as my superheavy detachment in 5th ed rules. since it is basically just 2 russ's slapped together it also isn't game breaking. but most of my force is cataphron breachers/destroyers. and i also picked up the great looking 3d printed dune crawlers from station forge.
Spoiler:
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear
2024/05/22 14:08:52
Subject: Re:The 40K- all things old editions topic.
aphyon wrote: I run a 7th ed admech army in our 5th edition games. it is quite fun. i built it around the lucius FW since i own a macharius and they make them there. so i can add it as my superheavy detachment in 5th ed rules. since it is basically just 2 russ's slapped together it also isn't game breaking. but most of my force is cataphron breachers/destroyers. and i also picked up the great looking 3d printed dune crawlers from station forge.
Spoiler:
Hey what a coincidence! I run a lucius army as well My army swings the opposite way. I was flooding the board with skitarii since they first came out, with neutron laser onagers following them everywhere and with knight support in the back for counter charge / heavy firepower. My 3d printer is out of wack but you best believe that I'm getting some admec STL's when I can get it running again. Even in 5th edition, I have plans.
Hell, I kinda want to reverse engineer some of the newer admec stuff to 7th edition, like the transports and jump packers. It would be a neat experiment.
I run my breachers the same way, but my destroyers rock the heavy grav cannon and flame thrower (for wall of death overwatch when and if they get charged). i run 6 of each along with some infiltrators, 2 neutron laser crawlers and the 3rd crawler with the AA loadout. a termite assault drill with electro priests (the staff ones) and the macharius. led by a tech priest dominus of course.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear
Yeah 3rd-7th core mechanics wise are pretty well the same. that's why our group allows any codex to be used form those editions. it would work the same for HH. in fact we use HH stuff for the custodes that isn't in the 7th ed codex alone to expand the model line.
We do refine it a bit to keep everything on the same page by restricting it to mostly 5th ed main rules/USRs with the given fixes i put at the start of this topic so many years ago.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear
just had my first game of 7th ed in years against an assault based, demon summoning army.
it was fairly good, if it was one sided in my favor. Still was a lot of fun. My opponent managed to summon a demon with my first armor saves of the game from a formation, got a demon prince off a challenge from a skitarii alpha, and summoned a lord of change. I was basically playing demon Wack-a-mole at that point. He called it after I killed the lord of change with a vanguard squad, seeing as I had a knight and another squad left to shoot.
Dunno how much I like formations still, but He brought up a good point; I won against three formations really good
413th Lucius Exterminaton Legion- 4,000pts
Atalurnos Fleetbreaker's Akhelian Corps- 2500pts
2024/05/25 08:16:23
Subject: Re:The 40K- all things old editions topic.
Having fun games is the point. GW pushing tournaments may be good for sales. even back in the day with early rouge trader and grand tournaments it brought in the worst kind of players. it took us away from hanging out with friends enjoying epic battles in the 40K setting where certain armies would do certain silly things because we all know that is what they would absolutely do no matter what....like khorne cultists killing themselves in the explosion they caused destroying a vehicle.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear
2024/05/25 12:56:19
Subject: Re:The 40K- all things old editions topic.
aphyon wrote: Having fun games is the point. GW pushing tournaments may be good for sales. even back in the day with early rouge trader and grand tournaments it brought in the worst kind of players. it took us away from hanging out with friends enjoying epic battles in the 40K setting where certain armies would do certain silly things because we all know that is what they would absolutely do no matter what....like khorne cultists killing themselves in the explosion they caused destroying a vehicle.
Here's the thing though, if your the Chaos player VS a vehicle focused ork army and you always lose each week because most of your army gets killed just killing the ork vehicles, who then go on to win - at some point the fun of the silly loses out to the "Oh I can't win this/Oh I keep losing".
It's always been the case that a well balanced game will work great for both competitive play AND casual play. The fact that GW gets it wrong most of the time isn't really a factor of their focus, its more a factor of their general approach to rules. I'd also argue that they aren't chasing the tournament crowd. They are doing bits for them, bits for casuals, bits for regular people and throw that all over a management framework (eg every unit must have an ability to be unique) and then smatter that with limited resources and a very short development timeframe.
Basically GW's rules keep having issues because of fundamental ways in which they approach rules.
I'd also argue that their "3 ways to play" is not allowed to flourish as it should under this structure. In theory GW should have one single solid set of rules that's pretty much set in stone for Matched Play and forms a balanced (between factions and within factions) approach to the game. They could then smatter that with a bunch of layered additional rules. Bringing in fluffy and fun things and wild stuff for the Open and Narrative Play formats as optional layers.
aphyon wrote: Having fun games is the point. GW pushing tournaments may be good for sales. even back in the day with early rouge trader and grand tournaments it brought in the worst kind of players. it took us away from hanging out with friends enjoying epic battles in the 40K setting where certain armies would do certain silly things because we all know that is what they would absolutely do no matter what....like khorne cultists killing themselves in the explosion they caused destroying a vehicle.
Here's the thing though, if your the Chaos player VS a vehicle focused ork army and you always lose each week because most of your army gets killed just killing the ork vehicles, who then go on to win - at some point the fun of the silly loses out to the "Oh I can't win this/Oh I keep losing".
It's always been the case that a well balanced game will work great for both competitive play AND casual play. The fact that GW gets it wrong most of the time isn't really a factor of their focus, its more a factor of their general approach to rules. I'd also argue that they aren't chasing the tournament crowd. They are doing bits for them, bits for casuals, bits for regular people and throw that all over a management framework (eg every unit must have an ability to be unique) and then smatter that with limited resources and a very short development timeframe.
Basically GW's rules keep having issues because of fundamental ways in which they approach rules.
I'd also argue that their "3 ways to play" is not allowed to flourish as it should under this structure. In theory GW should have one single solid set of rules that's pretty much set in stone for Matched Play and forms a balanced (between factions and within factions) approach to the game. They could then smatter that with a bunch of layered additional rules. Bringing in fluffy and fun things and wild stuff for the Open and Narrative Play formats as optional layers.
So you could get back your wild fun.
I think that better balance helps, but equally mission variety counters skew lists. The all-vehicle Ork army is going to struggle in the Stronghold Assault mission when it immediately alerts the sentries and therefore cannot get into a good position before the turn count-down starts (which is only 4 turns in Stronghold Assault). To take one example.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Agreed and honestly GW would possibly have an easier time selling narrative and creative missions like that if they settled down on the core rules and left them alone for a long span. I feel like with 3 year rotations everyone is spending time learning the rules (remembering casual players might not game more than once a week at best and not every single week in a month either) and just about gets them before it gets shaken up again.
So they don't want the bother of additoinal layers to the rules because they are still getting the core mechanics settled
aphyon wrote: Having fun games is the point. GW pushing tournaments may be good for sales. even back in the day with early rouge trader and grand tournaments it brought in the worst kind of players. it took us away from hanging out with friends enjoying epic battles in the 40K setting where certain armies would do certain silly things because we all know that is what they would absolutely do no matter what....like khorne cultists killing themselves in the explosion they caused destroying a vehicle.
Oh yea. I never been jump scared in a table top game like when Kairos fateweaver was tossed down in the middle of the field, right in front of my gunline! Some omnisiah blessed gunfire helped out a lot in removing them.
That said, his list was mostly assault focused, so next time I hope my guys hold up to gunfire .u.
Dunno if this has come up here before, but I've been reading some old rulebooks over the last few days.
Man, I wish 4e had army lists in the book! The 3e book is great, and ends up winning due to those army lists, but I always felt it did the non-Imperial factions dirty in the background section, and the colour section is great but...
The 4e colour section is just the best it's ever been. It's got gorgeous art for all the factions (I realised looking at it that the impression that art made on me is probably the REAL reason my marines are Crimson Fists and my chaos marines are Word Bearers!) and a fairly decent spread of background for all of them. The miniatures are close to my favourite versions of most of them.
And then it just keeps going - loads of advice on how to make terrain, cardboard city and bunker templates, photo examples of cloth battlefields with lichen and other "real" examples. Alternate game modes like Kill Team and Combat Patrol, really well developed with lots of hobbyists actual models painted with a skill level achievable by the average gamer. Advice on how to make minefields and other markers. Army profiles and how to paint guides that are actually realistic, and again, show real hobbyist's collections. And then another section of lovely terrain boards for inspiration.
And then it keeps going some more, with campaign rules, advice for how to make campaigns, and a whole example campaign at the back!
Just glorious stuff. And it'd be the last time we'd get a book like this with so much hobbyist content. In 5e it was all GW kits, and not nearly as hobby focused. One page on customising your miniatures, but nothing that wasn't GW terrain and all miniatures 'eavy metal painted. Gorgeous, of course, but not really showing a new gamer what is achievable and "normal".
It's a shame. I think of it as being the last hurrah for "old GW" cramming all that stuff in. It feels like someone thought "We've got to show kids that this is something they can do!"
Some of those editions were also when GW had some concept of how to layout information too.
These days you get the feeling that they've a bunch of game info that just gets thrown into the books (esp codex) as they are done with no real thought as to how the information flows or how easy it is to navigate. Eg Tyranids right now they "could" have put all the models in alphabetical, but nope instead they are just randomly inserted. So as there's no "hq, troop, heavysupport etc..." to break it down it takes ages to find a model.