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Ok, in my WE army I have a Bloodthirster and 6 units of 8 Bezerkers. Now all of the Bezerker units are the same: 7 w/ Khornate Chainaxes. Asp Champ w/ PF, BP, Talisman. Except one where the Asp Champ has simply got Daemon Chains as he is the host for the Thirster.
Now my question is, must I declare which unit is the host as it is differently equipped ? Do Daemon Chains have to be WYSIWYG ? I'd rather not that my opponent knows where the Host is.

Thanks

It would certainly have to be modelled differently. This is the disadvantage of Daemonic Chains, that your opponent will know which Champion is the Host but you will have greater control over when the Daemon comes.

It's like having 6 models which are modelled with bolt pistols. You can't just suddenly use one as a plasma pistol just because you didn't want your opponent to know it was there.

In any case, I find my opponents rarely take the time to try and kill my Host. He's usually buried deep within a 16-man squad of Berzerkers while I also have numerous other targets ("shield" Rhinos, Dreadnoughts etc), and despite Chains being clearly modelled on him (and being a very Daemonic-looking model) he *usually* survives to be Possessed properly.

How do you model demonic chains anyway? I have no experience with green-stuff, so I would like to shy away from that option. Is there some model that already has chains on it?

Darrian

Kharn the Betrayer does, off the top of my head. Most people I?ve seen model chains just buy some cheap jewelry chain and use that. Super easy. You can use super glue to stiffen it into particular shapes/poses as well.

I personlay dont see that Deamonic chains needs to be modeled. It could be argued that the chains are under his armor, much in the same way as I could argue that my comander's bionics are covered by his armor. If you choose to than more power to you. If you plan on using this army in tournaments then I recomend you contact the organizers first on their policies.

Posted By Darkness on 09/11/2006 9:00 AM
I personlay dont see that Deamonic chains needs to be modeled. It could be argued that the chains are under his armor, much in the same way as I could argue that my comander's bionics are covered by his armor.

 

Why stop there. You can always say the model has a plasma pistol shoved down his trousers, or that his Daemon Weapon is actually telekinesis, or that his Bike was produced by the same folks who built Wonder Woman's invisible plane.

Important wargear must be represented. Thats the whole point of WYSIWYG.

"What you see is what you get."

Not

"What you see with your minds eye is what you get."

 

Jeweler's chain is cheap and fun to work with. You can get enough for an entire legion of conversions for $2 at any craft store.

Simply put, laziness is the only excuse.

Simply put what defines "important" wargear? Is an auspex important? It is when it jacks your infiltrating unit. It the end it really comes down to your opponent. I myself am very lax om things like grenades and such.

Grenades are something I can see people getting away with, as they can easily be represented by something not easily shown on the model (those little mini-grenades Ragnar used in some book, for example), as well as things like Daemonic Strength and such, but only as long as such things are made clear before a game. But when it's something that defines where the Greater Daemon MUST come out (since only the Host can have Chains), as well as providing a crucial re-roll for Possession...that strikes me as being somewhat important enough to have to be modelled.

Once again, it's like 6 bolt pistol models and claiming that one of them is a plasma pistol (without telling your opponent *which* one it is). Or like having two Land Raider models and having one count as a Crusader without telling your opponent which is which until they have 8 Assault Termies bearing down on them. It is totally unfair to have a piece of wargear as important as Chains and not putting it on the model. If you're really worried about your opponent seeing the Chains and knowing which model is the Host, model the chains on the mini's back where your opponent won't be able to see them but it will still be modelled. There, problem solved.

As for how to model it, cheap jewelry chain usually does the trick. Alternatively, you could use models that already have chains on them (like Kharn as already mentioned - you can always hack off his left arm and use it on your own model). Have a look through the Chaos range and see if there's anything that you think would represent them properly.

Posted By Darkness on 09/11/2006 4:10 PM
Simply put what defines "important" wargear? Is an auspex important? It is when it jacks your infiltrating unit. It the end it really comes down to your opponent. I myself am very lax om things like grenades and such.

I suppose I should have left that qualifier out as it just confuses things.

The only thing I can currently think of that might not be important would be grenades on a unit that comes with them standard (meaning its included in their profile and they do not exist without them) yet GW did not included them on the models themselves.

Everything else is important.

Yes an auspex is important, thats why GW makes a bit for it.

 

If you want to take it, you must pay the price for it. Part of that price is the point cost, the other part is the representation on the model itself.

Actually it specifically says that Daemonic Chains must be represented on the model if taken so your point Darkness is incorrect.

Capt K

There is always the option of not taking the chains. Put your deamon a lease.

Nah, imo DC are very important, I need my thirster to come when I want him to. What I might do is buy Dc for a number of other Asp Champs as well, then he cannot know which one is the Host.

I think you can only buy chains for a host.

Couldn't you just model DC-like chains onto all of the champs, then claim that only one has the daemonic "juice" and the others are merely cosmetic?

I suppose if you're not playing full disclosure, sure.

Remember Yakface's 1st Rule.

I suppose I could do that, its very underhand though...

I mean, its no longer bordering on deception, that is deception...

Here's an easy way.

The majority of Beserker Marines have chains modeled on them. SImply paint your host's chains in Ocatrine since they're special.

But, if your opponent cannot perceive Octarine, then something equally as contrasting such as Blue for the chains would work.

I doubt any of my opponents are magicians or have ever been to the Unseen University, so I doubt they can see octarine.

Posted By Mephet'ran on 09/12/2006 9:24 PM
I suppose I could do that, its very underhand though...

I mean, its no longer bordering on deception, that is deception...

Sure, just like not telling your opponent where your Daemon is deception. Like Centurian said, remember Yakface's first rule.

But if it makes you feel dirty, paint the host's chains slightly different, so that a close inspection can show which is which, but at tabletop distances it's indistinguishable from your other Champs.

Good idea, I think I'll do that. My conscience can live with that.

It's kind of sad what people can live with to win a miniatures game, IMO.

Agreed.

You may as well model all of your special/heavy weapons to look almost exactly like bolters, or model all of you vehicles to look almost exactly like Landraiders.


Anything to prevent the undiligent opponent from not knowing what he's up against.....


.....right?

Posted By yakface on 09/14/2006 2:45 AM


It's kind of sad what people can live with to win a miniatures game, IMO.

Thats fairly hypocritical for someone with that kind of signature...
Especially as it was your signature that was used to tell me I could do so.

Mephet'ran, I think you missed the point of his sig...


Its a sad truth, and one which cannot be defeated via RAW.

Knowing that the loophole exists and is legal does not mean that one should use it.


Kinda like a nuke...

Maybe I did. The original point of my question was do Daemon Chains have to be WYSIWYG ? The answer, was yes. For some reason the conversation then went somewhere else.

you dont have to tell your opponent which asp is going to be possesed so modell chains on all but make sure its written in your army list which models is going to be the host so the person can check it later. Remember you dont have to show each other army list aswell.

Posted By beef on 09/14/2006 7:33 AM
you dont have to tell your opponent which asp is going to be possesed so modell chains on all but make sure its written in your army list which models is going to be the host so the person can check it later. Remember you dont have to show each other army list aswell.

Problem is, all the squads are identical...
Besides, I don't want to decieve anyone, that not in the spirit of the game (despite the RAW mania phase GW is going through). Fluff wise it should be obvious if someone is being visibly restrained with big chains.

So ym next question isn't a rules question, but it seems pointless to start a new thread about it. What better, to take Chains and let my opponent know where the Host is, or not to take Chains but making it harder to control the thirster's arrival ?
And if I take chains, should I keep the host in an 8 man unit, or loose a unit (and an Asp Champ) to make him safer with a 16 man unit?

I'd ask that in the tactics forum.

Sure the chains have to be on the fig, or some sort of suitably constraining conversion - no one is really going to argue with demonic rope I don't think. If you want to make it less obvious that one champ is a host with chains and the others aren't then you should heavily convert them all. If they all look fancy your opponent may or may not ask about the chains on that one guy. Just make sure you don't add extra chains to them all, becuase that is kind of sad.

I'm all for wysiwyg here, but I'm also all for letting my opponents be as bright as they care to be without helping them along any. It's your job to model the chains, but not neccessarily to do so in such a way as to make it blindingly obvious what he has. If players can miss properly modeled Power Fists in a squad (and I've seen it done in tourneys) then you don't need to sweat yourself about helping the other guy out with the chains. Any decent opponent will know what to look for anyway, and if they're so bad they're not going to see it then you likely don't need any obfuscation to give them the power boot. Wow, that was kinda long. Meh!

Cheers

So an age of morality finally comes to YTMC.