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Well, once that sucker gets into CC and hits for Str 9 hits or what ever the Daemon's str is, it will be very very apparent.

So an age of morality finally comes to YTMC.

 Let's not go quite that far now! People might start thinking this is a game to be played for fun. Where would we power gamers be if no one took this sort of thing overly seriously? Who would we crush? Oh! The humanity!

Cheers

I suppose if someone were jerky enough to model every model the same and not specify who had the Daemon Chains, the opponent could then argue that the equipment isn't *clearly* depicted on the model since all the models have chains and it is not clear what is suppossed to be "daemonic chains"......

But it's probably easier to just play with people who aren't jerks. I don't think I've ever had a problem just handing the list over and/or answering questions. I can't think of any time an opponent wouldn't do likewise.

Yeah, yak wasn't to keen on my pirate theme for my army. You know, putting huge sails on my rhinos to hide my preds and demon prince, and green stuffing some pirate hats on all my champions.

Posted By frenrik on 09/14/2006 1:39 PM
Yeah, yak wasn't to keen on my pirate theme for my army. You know, putting huge sails on my rhinos to hide my preds and demon prince, and green stuffing some pirate hats on all my champions.

That is one of the funniest ideas I have heard. (Though it's still no Hello Kitty....) At least it has some style!

I think this is weak, you said you dont want to deceive the opponent, but you started the conversation by arguing you didn't want to model the Demon Chains because you didn't want your opponent to know which model is the host. That is the epicenter of what deception is about. I make it a point to tell exactly what is on my models when an opponent asks, because that is fair, actually its more than fair, its honorable. Then again, I happen to have a couple of models that have MORE gear than they are allowed (a jump pack with a pistol, plasma pistol, and flamer) but that reason is so that I can use either of those weapons, and I tell my opponent BEFORE the game ever starts which weapon that model is using.

I think that there is something to be said about an General that has enough confidence in his/her own abilities that they don't mind disclosing what their army has. WYSIWYG is there to enforce this mentality. Unless you don't mind proxies and don't mind playing proxies, which is acceptable if both players agree, in which case oh well.

Posted By frenrik on 09/14/2006 1:39 PM
Yeah, yak wasn't to keen on my pirate theme for my army. You know, putting huge sails on my rhinos to hide my preds and demon prince, and green stuffing some pirate hats on all my champions.

Y'know, I think I'm going to take that back. If you take the time out to make a really cool pirate theme for your army, then I'll just deal with the abuse factor simply to enjoy the fact that you army has silly pirate hats on it.

That's my new motto: If you're going to abuse the rules of the game through modelling in order to win, you might as well make it enertaining for your opponent!

 

@ Mephet'ran: Blue Loki's got it right. The point of my signature is that the rules don't prevent anyone from using modelling to their in-game advantage so there's no point in bringing up that argument in YMTC for why something can/should or cannot/shouldnot be allowed from a rules perspective.

It's ultimately left up to the character of the player to decide if he wants to do such a thing. In my personal opinion, it is rather pathetic to feel the need to alter your miniatures to help win the game, but that is simply my opinion.

If you (or anyone else) feel differently is absolutely your right to do so. Just don't expect many people to understand or respect your decision, especially if those that pride themselves on sportsmanship and fair play ethics.

 

In my defence, I wasn't saying I want to decieve my opponents, I wanted to know do DC have to be WYSIWYG, because I'd rather not that my opponent know where the GD is as the case would be if the Host didn't have DC. I wasn't asking for underhand ways of getting DC and at the same time making it impossible for my opponent to know where the GD is.

And yakface, sorry, I did misunderstand your signature.

you dont have to tell your opponent who the host is so dont. its not underhand it how the game is played.

You can also keep your Chaos Marines inside Rhinos. Maybe not the best idea but then your opponent will definitely not know.

I say model all your Aspiring Champions with chains. Its perfectly legal to and just one of them has the demonic chains on them acutally. The easier way to see is basically the only aspiring champion with a close combat weapon instead of the powerfist. That usually 100% of the time gives them away.

Posted By beef on 09/15/2006 3:21 PM
you dont have to tell your opponent who the host is so dont. its not underhand it how the game is played.

True, but that's not the question. There is no question that absent daemonic chains, there is no requirement to identify the host. Any wargear must be clearly depicted on the model. So if you have chains on everyone, the daemon chains are not clearly depicted (unless they were painted in a different color, perhaps). Alternately, the opposing player could simply ask which chains were the daemonic chains, and the element of deception/surprise is lost.

Quite, which is why I'll just go without Chains, see if that works.

Posted By Fenris-77 on 09/14/2006 9:10 AM
I'm all for wysiwyg here, but I'm also all for letting my opponents be as bright as they care to be without helping them along any. It's your job to model the chains, but not neccessarily to do so in such a way as to make it blindingly obvious what he has.

IMHO, yes, the chains should be blindingly obvious.  The whole point of WYSIWYG is to make it blindingly obvious what your models have.  I'm working on a Word Bearers army now, and my demonhost has large chains wound all around his body.  IMO, it looks very cool in an over-the-top sort of way.  And, frankly, I want to win games by playing the game well, or even by luck, rather than by using sneaky modelling techniques.

"Why stop there. You can always say the model has a plasma pistol shoved down his trousers, or that his Daemon Weapon is actually telekinesis, or that his Bike was produced by the same folks who built Wonder Woman's invisible plane.

Important wargear must be represented. Thats the whole point of WYSIWYG."

Because daemonic chains are wargear, not weapons. You don't see IG commanders with refractor fields modelled. Or daemonic aura, or daemonic essence, Some things are important to be modelled, some things are not, daemonic chains are one of them. Besides, khorne berserker models already have chains on them, how do you tell which is daemonic and which is not? Simple solution, you say, "This is the daemon host", the opponent looks down on his copy of your army list and sees that the daemon host has daemonic chains.

Posted By Angron on 09/18/2006 10:50 AM

Because daemonic chains are wargear, not weapons. You don't see IG commanders with refractor fields modelled. Or daemonic aura, or daemonic essence, Some things are important to be modelled, some things are not, daemonic chains are one of them.

Refractor fields should be modeled per the rules. Page 37 of the IG codex clearly says that models must have all weapons and wargear modeled.

I think the point of this whole post, at least from my perspective and Yakface's is that every piece of wargear and weapon is supposed to be modeled period. EOR. I mean, psychic hood's, check, terminator armor, check+, hunter killer missles, absolutely. The only things that shouldn't be modeled are things that can't be modeled, like Power of the Machine Spirit, and psychic powers. Things that are ephemeral those are the things that are not supposed to be modeled. Demon chains are hardly ephemoral.

If I want to say my guy has an adamantine mantle, he better have a cloak somewhere on him. You can't pretend if you're playing WYSIWYG. More importantly you don't get the ability to say what is and isn't important to be modeled. Finally, I disagree that this isn't deception. Plain and simple, modeling things absent their wargear is simple deception, preventing your opponent from knowing the truth about your models.

On a side note, you actually modeled a guy to have a plasma pistol down his pants, that would be hillarious.

why not nstead of chains,or the chains too,paint runes on the model?
like hold back spells or something equally chaotic?

IMO it doesn't really matter what you do, so long as it is obvious that the model has Daemon Chains.

Runes are a very good idea, so long as you inform the opponent. Realistically, I don't think any opponent is going to care if you put a diaper on him and call it DChains, so long as you make it clear before you start!

you dont need to make 0it clear to them if only one model has chains or runes then thats good enough. would you go around pointing out obvious things like "this vet has a plasma pistol" No you would not so Why bother show them the chains?? so they know who is to be possed so they can lascannon the poor unfortunate and make your demon suffer instabiulity?? Why give them thats advantage. Just make sure its modelled in a different way to the rest of your squads and rleave it at that.

Posted By beef on 09/19/2006 12:15 PM
you dont need to make 0it clear to them if only one model has chains or runes then thats good enough. would you go around pointing out obvious things like "this vet has a plasma pistol" No you would not so Why bother show them the chains?? so they know who is to be possed so they can lascannon the poor unfortunate and make your demon suffer instabiulity?? Why give them thats advantage. Just make sure its modelled in a different way to the rest of your squads and rleave it at that.

If you model the demon chains as chains, and if it should be clear to your opponent when he looks at the model, then, no, I don't see a reason to point them out.  However, if you decide you're going to model the demon chains as runes, then, yes, absolutely you should point it out to your opponent.  Does it say in the wargear description that demon chains can be represented as just runes?  No, I don't think it does.  So, if you're modelling the chains as something else, and you don't tell your opponent, it's not really WYSIWYG, is it?

And, no, I wouldn't point out that a vet has a plasma pistol if he obviously has a plasma pistol.  If, however, you scratch build a plasma pistol, or use a non-GW bit to count as a plasma pistol, then it might be noteworthy if it's not 100% obvious what it is.

Why would I ever point out a model that has demon chains to my opponent?  Because, if it came right down to it, I rather lose and have my opponent think I was playing fairly, than win and have him think that I only won because I was cheating.  (Also, just because your opponent knows where the demonhost is, that doesn't mean you can't stop him from killing the demonhost...)

I think the point is that your opponant should be able to tell what a model is equipped with. There are a few exceptions, like grenades, and psychic powers, but generally the idea is pretty basic.
Now, if you give upgrades to everybody to disguise which models actually have the upgrade, then I don't see how that is any different from not modeling the upgrade to begin with, because your opponant still won't be able to tell what upgrades your models have.

I disclose everything to my opponant, and I expect him to do the same. If he will not, then I will still disclose everything to him. In all the years I have played, it has not changed the outcome of a single game, and I expect it never will.

If you play WYSIWYG then model the chains, if you don't then you should disclose.

My group use full disclosure (army list!) but If you are in a group which doesn't paint the underside of the base a different colour. Tell your opponent in advance and then show him as you use of the wargear.

Sorry, should be a comma after doesn't but I can't seem to edit.

Posted By the cabbage on 09/20/2006 5:59 AM
If you play WYSIWYG then model the chains, if you don't then you're not actually playing 40k.

Fixed your post.

Oh thats great.

How does one model a refractor field? Or bionics being worn under a fully sealed suit of power armor (with helmet)? Or things like the Honorifica or Macharian Cross? Do you insist that melta bombs and grenades be modeled too? Where does one draw the line? Can things carried in pouches count, or must they be "visible"?

Just playing devils advocate here, as I am a modeler/painter first and only occasionally game (40k/sci-fi) these days. I understand the reasoning behind WYSIWYG, but I also think taking it to the extreme and requiring every little piece of warger, daemonic gift and so forth be modelled in some OTT way takes it too far. I've also never played in a tourney, sticking entirely to friendly "club" style play which is considerably more relaxed (and relaxing), to me at least.

A small generator on his back.
Iron hands have power armor and bionics, and you can tell.
The guard codex shows how to make the honorifica and macharian cross.

I understand that you're playing devils's advocate, but WYSIWYG is simply part of the game, whether or not players chose to follow the rules depends on the players themselves, but you'll find it in every codex. If you are not WYSIWYG, then you need to disclose what is what to your opponant.
If it is not visible, then it is not "what you see is what you get," now is it?

The problem is that most players play the game wrong. They make their army list, then look over their model collection to try and make it fit the list.
That is backwards, in my opinion.
You are supposed to make your army list based on the upgrades and conversions you have modeled. The price of most upgrades is the points they cost and the effort to model the upgrades to be WYSIWYG.

There are some exceptions, and I'm sure different people draw the line at different points, but the idea is clear, your opponant should know what he is facing, and any attempt to trick is mislead your opponant is just bad form.

Im pretty sure most of us fudge just a little bit on WYSIWYG, things like melta bombs and krak grenades can be a pain in the butt to get, not to mention to model onto every one of your guys. And most WYSIWYG conventions will say what is not necessary to model, but most things can be modeled and generally should be and are modeled in WYSIWYG. In my shop things like grenades aren't necessary to model, but such things may be in other shops.