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Joyboozer wrote:
Is that nipple tape or nipple armour? Does it improve her save?

you can count them as pasties or square nipples.

Personally wish they just had straight up nipples. Like a lot of mermaid art that just have bare breasts.

What are the odds that the Germany shipping hub will take a break for Chinese New Year?

So quality looks just as bad as relic knights and sedition wars despite their 'new processes'. Well that keeps coolmini on the don't touch list for now.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
So quality looks just as bad as relic knights and sedition wars despite their 'new processes'. Well that keeps coolmini on the don't touch list for now.

Considering you can't see mold lines except in extremely easy to clean spots on the models shown (which are Hadross and going to be the worst of the bunch for cleaning outside of maybe the Goritsi werewolves) I'd say that's a gross over exaggeration. Coupled with the people so far that have gotten it saying it cleans up fast and with remarkably limited mold lines and I'm just not on the same page as you. Plus plastic weapons is going to be a massive boon.

Each is entitled to their own opinion but everyone who's gotten them so far seems very pleased. Which is a totally different reaction from Sedition Wars. Granted, I don't know what the issues with the relic knights ones were as I didn't buy in on that one.

Agreed with The Hulk - still cautiously optimistic here!

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
So quality looks just as bad as relic knights and sedition wars despite their 'new processes'. Well that keeps coolmini on the don't touch list for now.

Gee, who would have ever expected your sad and biased negativity?

Not me!

I've had multiple friends who have received theirs express how happy they are with the models. Especially at the price.

 cincydooley wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
So quality looks just as bad as relic knights and sedition wars despite their 'new processes'. Well that keeps coolmini on the don't touch list for now.

Gee, who would have ever expected your sad and biased negativity?

Not me!

I've had multiple friends who have received theirs express how happy they are with the models. Especially at the price.

Gee who could have expected your paid for positivity ;-)

To be entirely fair some of the pre-release photos looked promising and I would like to have seen this be a turn around in quality, however based on the photos posted I can't see any improvement. However I will be looking to see some of these in the flesh as that is the real test. At the end if the day my opinion can only be bought with results not cold hard cash.

Thanks for the photos Cincey! I agree with RiTides that they look like pretty standard pvc results. The abs plastic weapons will move them up a notch in terms of potential results. I am a rare fan of the Sedition Wars minis, so I expect I will be content with these too. I think that the price and material combo will make these a hard sell to most people. Anything higher than the KS prices moves them out of the price range I'm willing to pay for restic minis. I think that some of the other factions may show better in pvc as the Hadross were always the weakest sculpts in terms of how they would look in pvc in my estimation.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/wrath-kings-unboxing-new-goritsi-starter.html

For those that don't know, GentleBen is an incredible, award winning painter. His opinion, for me, holds a lot of weight.

 cincydooley wrote:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/wrath-kings-unboxing-new-goritsi-starter.html

For those that don't know, GentleBen is an incredible, award winning painter. His opinion, for me, holds a lot of weight.

Thanks for that cincy they don't look that bad at all, I think I'll be picking up some of these when they go to retail.

His take away from the article (lots of pics so well worth clicking on above):

You’ll surely have noticed that this set is the same PVC plastic that we’ve been seeing more and more of from so many different companies lately. I was a little hesitant to back this product at first because of this, but the production samples I saw at gencon changed my mind. Having the actual models in hand I don’t regret my decision at all. Some of the problems with PVC are here, but they are minimal. There are some mold lines here and there but I didn’t notice anything too gnarly. The detail is really good too. I did my best to make it show through on all the pictures, but photographing tiny plastic can be tricky, and I don’t know if I did all of these figures justice.

I also think the benefits with PVC really do shine on these. Most people really dislike the stuff (I will freely admit that a really good polystyrene kit always wins) but the advantage it has (in addition to being cheaper to manufacture) is that it can make more three dimensional shapes since it’s bendy plastic and more irregular shapes won’t break coming out of the mold. I don’t think those War Dancers (who happen to be my faves of the set) could have been done with Polystyrene. Not the way they look now anyway. Of course if there’s anything I’ve learned from painting so many PVC figures is that if you take the time to clean them, they paint up as good as anything. And I am looking forward to painting these.

From his pics, I think the wolves look quite serviceable - chunkier organic models like this are definitely a better fit for the material.

The small vampire ladies, though... I'm not sure what he's seeing that I'm not, if anything, but they look like typical 28mm humans in PVC to me, with softer-than-ideal detail.

I.e, look at the hand and the handle/hilt of the sword here (edit: which turns out to be a badly done different material, ugh... see DaveC / Piston Honda's comments below)



It's like there's trying to be detail... but it's lost in the depths of the PVC (see DaveC's comment below), crying out to be released

Still, like I said, the chunkier wolves don't look bad. However, he also made this caveat:

Of course if there’s anything I’ve learned from painting so many PVC figures is that if you take the time to clean them, they paint up as good as anything. And I am looking forward to painting these.

A few things on this:

1. "Taking the time to clean them" is exactly the problem most people have with PVC. While a small minority of folks devoted to some of these projects claim otherwise, it is generally considered to be notoriously difficult to clean, and takes a lot of time/effort to accomplish... time you could be spending painting, etc.

2. He is a world class painter, so his saying that "they paint up as good as anything" does not necessarily mean much... there was a model in the Relic Knights thread where the painter had completely made up for the lacking detail on the model (I think the face in particular in that case) by skillfully adding whatever might be missing.

For me, the real story is in the pics and in what I know about the material first-hand, and I'm not seeing anything that is outside of my expectations here. Weapons that are not polystyrene will have a softer edge, detail will be shallower than with other materials, there will be some hard-to-remove mold lines, and they will generally only go together in a few configurations (and be difficult to convert due to the way the material cuts).

This is certainly fine for some applications (like those wolves, perhaps!). But especially for smaller models, it is not on par with metal, resin, or polystyrene, and I don't want people unfamiliar with it to think otherwise (because of supposedly "new formulations", etc) lest they get disappointed terribly like with Sedition Wars. For what it is, it's fine... let's just not make it out to be something it's not.

Probably not the best time to point out then that the weapon arm above isn't PVC the weapons on the frames are made from hard plastic (and really should have held detail better)

Having looked at the unboxing photos and pictures that were released prior to being in people's hands though RiTides I think there is going to be far less cleaning than there was even on the smaller sedition war models or the warmachine/hordes models.

We'll see but so far I'm seeing pictures of much nicer, cleaner, and sharper than the items in restic we've gotten before.

Photos looked good. Still excited for when this eventually gets here.

Guess I should have picked a different pic

Point well taken, DaveC - however, in that case, I would not trust their polystyrene manufacturer, either (the same manufacturer?). We've certainly seen poor examples of polystyrene before - and That is most definitely one of them! They need to talk to Wyrd about how they get their fantastic Malifaux polystyrene models... (from WGF)

Edit: Just saw your edit, and yeah, agreed that it should have held the detail better... ugh. I wonder if it's their method, as that looks like a sword on a single sprue by itself?

Regardless, the wolves look pretty good, I'm guessing those are the "war dancers" that he says are his favorite, right? I'll definitely be watching for the octopus / etc, as I think those will turn out great.


Edit 2: Hulk, will you have yours at AdeptiCon?

Based on sedition wars and relic knights I'd like to see these after undercoating as the material never photographs well by itself,

I think the coats etc on the vampires will really benefit from this (but certainly they look pretty good for PVC even without this)

That's a fair point, Orlando, and I'll reserve judgement. Safeties on, weapons lowered, etc etc

What really has me perplexed now is that polystyrene weapon. I've pinged a few folks who might know more about what causes something like this to be the case, when we know from so many other examples (GW, Malifaux, Dreamforge's currently shipping wave 3, etc) that the detail can be so much sharper than that.

 RiTides wrote:
Guess I should have picked a different pic

Point well taken, DaveC - however, in that case, I would not trust their polystyrene manufacturer, either (the same manufacturer?). We've certainly seen poor examples of polystyrene before - and That is most definitely one of them! They need to talk to Wyrd about how they get their fantastic Malifaux polystyrene models... (from WGF)

Edit: Just saw your edit, and yeah, agreed that it should have held the detail better... ugh. I wonder if it's their method, as that looks like a sword on a single sprue by itself?

Regardless, the wolves look pretty good, I'm guessing those are the "war dancers" that he says are his favorite, right? I'll definitely be watching for the octopus / etc, as I think those will turn out great.


Edit 2: Hulk, will you have yours at AdeptiCon?

The plastic used on the weapons is ABS (the stuff legos are made of) not the same stiff you see with GW or Wyrd.

Considering what they wanted it is probably the best choice, obviously they didn't want to go the HIPs route (for money/quantity reasons) but they tackled the issue of thin warped plastic using ABS.

I'm not sure what to make of ABS in miniature wargames as it is pretty much new to me. Does not snap like HIPs does, but does not hold the detail (via internet images anyway). But does not warp like PVC can't really say if it holds better detail, want to wait until I get them in my hands.

If you have any questions about plastics ask these guys they will answer anything and know their shhhtuff

http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/17030-hips-vs-absthe-final-thread-frontier/

Edit: In a perfect world ABS's durability is probably ideal for spears, this swords or pikes as you don't have to worry about metal bending or HIPs snapping (or resin). Though I am not sure how practical it would be for more companies to make thin fragile weapons in ABS.

Piston Honda, how do you know the weapons are ABS? The sprue pic certainly didn't strike me as HIPS, but I thought maybe it was just from a different provider... could you point to where you found that out / etc?

I'm pretty sure that CMON said it would be ABS in some KS Update somewhere - I think!

 cincydooley wrote:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/wrath-kings-unboxing-new-goritsi-starter.html

For those that don't know, GentleBen is an incredible, award winning painter. His opinion, for me, holds a lot of weight.

Didn't follow this kickstarter much but those (were)wolves have a strong confrontation vibe.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/wrath-kings-unboxing-new-goritsi-starter.html

For those that don't know, GentleBen is an incredible, award winning painter. His opinion, for me, holds a lot of weight.

Didn't follow this kickstarter much but those (were)wolves have a strong confrontation vibe.

Same sculptor, so that's not a surprise

Didn't go whole hog into this one simply because I wasn't too interested and had other things vying for my money at the time and just grabbed some things a la carte.

The photos people are posting of the finished products don't look so bad. I keep reading peoples' comments on making allowances for the material (it's not the best, etc) and those reserving final judgement until seeing them in person. So maybe the take away for PVC, currently, is Results May Vary? I'll probably pick up some of those werewolves if I can remember to do so when they're released.

Right away, though, I noticed that those vampire ladies actually have distinguishable faces which is a big plus compared to my RK gals. But that's more to do with the sculpt and I'm not really worried about quality based on what has been shown so far as I wait for my stuff to arrive.

I really like those wolves.

Makes me sad I got just about everything but them.

Maybe I'll trade some off of Barzam when he gets his order in.

Two more days til my pile arrives! Huzzah!

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I really like those wolves.

Makes me sad I got just about everything but them.

Maybe I'll trade some off of Barzam when he gets his order in.

Two more days til my pile arrives! Huzzah!

I'll prob be willing to trade of my Goritsi.

 cincydooley wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I really like those wolves.

Makes me sad I got just about everything but them.

Maybe I'll trade some off of Barzam when he gets his order in.

Two more days til my pile arrives! Huzzah!

I'll prob be willing to trade of my Goritsi.

Hmm. You might have two interested buyers. If anybody wants to sell me some of their Teknes pigs, I'd also like to pick up some of those.

 RiTides wrote:
Piston Honda, how do you know the weapons are ABS? The sprue pic certainly didn't strike me as HIPS, but I thought maybe it was just from a different provider... could you point to where you found that out / etc?

A guy who works for CMON, Deke, told me. he has a fun youtube channel called Throne of Angels.

Also someone here on Daka who held the stuff at Gencon asked about the material and said they were ABS.

Well that certainly goes a long way towards explaining why it isn't as sharp as I'd have expected if done in HIPS... thanks very much for the info.

And of course, they already talked about this in an actual 'official' KS update...

Update #42

Sep 9 2013

Mold sneak peeks
14 comments

The first part of mold making is generating excellent masters, figuring out where cuts to the model need to be made, and creating the plugs for each piece.

Enjoy!

I know it was certainly talked about elsewhere too.

It isn't like CMON was trying to hide it!

Thanks for that Alph (although those are pics of the masters and how they intended to make them - it's certainly interesting to see the final products).

From checking back in the thread I see lots of references to "hard plastic weapons" early on, which people assumed would be polystyrene, but obviously that didn't turn out to be the case. Ergh...

"ABS" was what the weapons were to be from fairly early on, IIRC.

Again, it certainly wasn't 'hidden', and was known as far back as September 2013!

But then all you have to do is look at Shadows of Brimstone to see that even HIPs isn't the Miracle Material without the necessary know-how up front in terms of sculpting and mold making...