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 ross-128 wrote:
I do wish that hover-flyers like the Vendetta got a little extra wiggle room though, like "ignores the -1 penalty for firing a heavy weapon after moving if it has moved less than 10" this turn", that would be a good rule.

I personally hate the -1 to hit rule, it makes me want to sit still all the time! For instance, seeing people use Taurox Primes as a gunline when they should be zipping around raising hell.

I was hoping that the STR 8 Vanquisher was a typo. But it appears to have carried over to the FW stuff too.

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I do wish that hover-flyers like the Vendetta got a little extra wiggle room though, like "ignores the -1 penalty for firing a heavy weapon after moving if it has moved less than 10" this turn", that would be a good rule.

I personally hate the -1 to hit rule, it makes me want to sit still all the time! For instance, seeing people use Taurox Primes as a gunline when they should be zipping around raising hell.

Yeah, I understand why it's on infantry (it's replacing the old "snap shots when moving", which in turn replaced "no firing and moving"), but vehicles and MCs were subject to neither of those rules in the past, and so in my opinion shouldn't be subject to that penalty now. Or at the very least, should have a movement window where they can fire without penalty and only take the penalty if they want to go faster.

So is there somewhere that says that a unit counts as having moved at the end of the movement phase when you set it up on the battlefield after an Aerial Drop?

Nevermind, it's covered on under movement rules..

jaxor1983 wrote:

While it does seem like it's intended to be a gunship, it's lack of strafing run says otherwise. It instead appears to be an incredibly overpriced transport with a deathstrike caliber randomness of damage output.

Hover mode?


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jaxor1983 wrote:
So is there somewhere that says that a unit counts as having moved at the end of the movement phase when you set it up on the battlefield after an Aerial Drop?

Nevermind, it's covered on under movement rules..

Far as I can tell, it doesn't use those rules. GSI specifically says it's "disembarking", which allows normal movement afterwards. Barring some sort of errata, any relationship that 9" has to any other rule happen to be coincidental.

I think he's talking about the Elysians' Aerial Drop rule, which is a deep strike just like what Scions can do.

It seems like a mandatory Vanguard Detachment for every single Imperium army for the foreseeable future should be:

314 Points:
2 Elysian Commanders with plasma pistols
4 Elysian Command Squads w/ 4 plasma guns

Since they (for some reason) do 3 damage per supercharged shot.. that's 34 shots within 12" that can do 102 damage..

 ross-128 wrote:
I think he's talking about the Elysians' Aerial Drop rule, which is a deep strike just like what Scions can do.

Oh, right. Yeah. Probably so. I still had the vendetta on my mind.

jaxor1983 wrote:
It seems like a mandatory Vanguard Detachment for every single Imperium army for the foreseeable future should be:

314 Points:
2 Elysian Commanders with plasma pistols
4 Elysian Command Squads w/ 4 plasma guns

Since they (for some reason) do 3 damage per supercharged shot.. that's 34 shots within 12" that can do 102 damage..

Honestly I don't think I would play against someone who didn't think the 3 damage was a typo. I'll let GSC have their str 9 vanquishers but that is more because I am jealous.

Hmmm, wonder if I could ally in GSC...

I agree - I wouldn't use the 3 damage profile, except at an ITC event.

The plasma cannon is also different from the index in that it shoots twice, rather than D3, when supercharged. However, it still only does 2 damage.

So the Malcador Heavy Tank is pretty much Leman Russ with 6 extra wounds. Same stats (barring the practically useless leadership stat). They can both take a hull lascannon and both get battle cannons, and while the Malcador can take sponson lascannons the LR can take multi-melta's which are the same cost and probably fairly equivalent on the table. So the real difference is the wounds stat (6 more on the Malc). Is it worth paying the 58 extra points for 6 extra wounds? Or would those points be better spent elsewhere?

Demantiae wrote:
So the Malcador Heavy Tank is pretty much Leman Russ with 6 extra wounds. Same stats (barring the practically useless leadership stat). They can both take a hull lascannon and both get battle cannons, and while the Malcador can take sponson lascannons the LR can take multi-melta's which are the same cost and probably fairly equivalent on the table. So the real difference is the wounds stat (6 more on the Malc). Is it worth paying the 58 extra points for 6 extra wounds? Or would those points be better spent elsewhere?

Currently the Malcador takes up a slot by itself as well, while you can fit 3 Russ in one slot. You will also be -1 to hit if you move the with the Malcador's Battle Cannon, not with the Russ.

Honestly, I'm still excited about saber weapon batteries and their searchlights of doom. Oh, plasma Scions/Elysians? Have fun hitting on 2, re-rolling 1, and being 100% immune to overheating. What's that? I have a hydra battery? Well guess I can hit subsonic flyers on 2, supersonic flyers on 3, and everything else on 4. Tank commanders? You're now promoted to Pask Jr. Tanks with co-ax weapons? Now they can hit on 3+ on top of getting that re-roll.

It's just kind of wonderful across the board, the only units where a +1 to hit wouldn't be worth the 20 points might be flamethrowers and Pask (assuming natural 1 always fails, if not, auto-hitting Pask!).

Even conscripts could probably benefit from being able to hit on 4+ now and then. Probably going to try to take plenty of these things, so that I have lots of +1s to pass around.

"A roll of 1 to hit allways fails irrespective of any modifiers"

From the Roll to hit rules in the core rules.

Per the FAQ the +1 still comes into play after the miss for things like supercharged plasma. So you will miss with a nat 1 but still be immune to overheat.

 ross-128 wrote:
Honestly, I'm still excited about saber weapon batteries and their searchlights of doom. Oh, plasma Scions/Elysians? Have fun hitting on 2, re-rolling 1, and being 100% immune to overheating. What's that? I have a hydra battery? Well guess I can hit subsonic flyers on 2, supersonic flyers on 3, and everything else on 4. Tank commanders? You're now promoted to Pask Jr. Tanks with co-ax weapons? Now they can hit on 3+ on top of getting that re-roll.

It's just kind of wonderful across the board, the only units where a +1 to hit wouldn't be worth the 20 points might be flamethrowers and Pask (assuming natural 1 always fails, if not, auto-hitting Pask!).

Even conscripts could probably benefit from being able to hit on 4+ now and then. Probably going to try to take plenty of these things, so that I have lots of +1s to pass around.

They sound cool but I would be surprised if they last past turn 1. They seem like first blood fodder to me. If they could stay in squadrons then I would like them a lot more.

The combination of a couple search lights, harker, and a manticore seems pretty damned good.

jaxor1983 wrote:
The combination of a couple search lights, harker, and a manticore seems pretty damned good.

I'd rather have two basilisks really. More firepower and a lot harder to kill. Those lights are not getting past turn 1. Imagine if a squad of 3 marines gave units +1 to hit. Think they would live long?

With the Elysian rules I could build an army of nothing but deep striking officers.

Demantiae wrote:
So the Malcador Heavy Tank is pretty much Leman Russ with 6 extra wounds. Same stats (barring the practically useless leadership stat). They can both take a hull lascannon and both get battle cannons, and while the Malcador can take sponson lascannons the LR can take multi-melta's which are the same cost and probably fairly equivalent on the table. So the real difference is the wounds stat (6 more on the Malc). Is it worth paying the 58 extra points for 6 extra wounds? Or would those points be better spent elsewhere?

I think this is a typo. Because the Malc Defender has that same rule the LR has and the Heavy Malc fills the same roll as the LR. It'd be pretty odd that it lacked the rule, I think it was just missed off and expect it to get FAQ'd. Not the only daft mistkae in the book.

As for force org slots, why is anybody taking them as 3 per slot? Surely you should be trying to max out your 3 detachments and get as many command points as possible? If you take 3 LR's then by taking just a single HQ you can fill out a Spearhead Detachment and get another CP. You shouldn't be trying to fill out each detachment.

so assuming the move and fire does get corrected, what's the value of 6 more wounds on this tank?

The only Malcador weapons to get the grinding advance rules are the hull mounted demolishers, none of them get it for the turret mount. I think it is intended and not a mistake.

The Malc defender has to be pretty nasty now?

The bolters are no longer restricted to firing one way.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
The Malc defender has to be pretty nasty now?

The bolters are no longer restricted to firing one way.

It gets +1 to hit rolls when firing overwatch so hits on a 5/6, although as Overwatch ignores modifiers I'm not sure if this would apply or not?

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
The Malc defender has to be pretty nasty now?

The bolters are no longer restricted to firing one way.

Not really. You pay 296 points for a tougher Russ (W18 instead of W12) with 7 Heavy Bolters that still suffer -1 to hit when moving and a Demolisher Cannon which do not suffer it. If you really like Heavy Bolters I guess it would be nice, but one Leman Russ Demolisher with 3 Heavy Bolters cost 196. The Malcadors are not terrible but I wouldn't say that they are anything but average. You could almost get 2 Conquerors with 3 Heavy Bolters each for the same price and I would say that they are superior.


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 Trickstick wrote:
The only Malcador weapons to get the grinding advance rules are the hull mounted demolishers, none of them get it for the turret mount. I think it is intended and not a mistake.

I agree with your analysis but it seems pretty dumb. You pay approx. 60 points for the 6 additional wounds, so I think they could just have thrown that rule in for the hell of it. It doesn't need a penalty for moving.

Vehicle wise the only ones that stand out to me as worth buying are a Malcador Infernus, a Trojan (for fun with a Stormlord), or a Stormhammer. The Malcador variants are undewhelming, the Macharius are poor Baneblade chassis copies and most of the other stuff has better vanilla alternatives.

I was thinking that a trojan would be better with a shadowsword. A macharius vulcan would be nice too, if you RAI the double shot rule to actually work. Or hover a vulture next to it.

Speaking of vultures, anyone like the idea of putting one on a skyshield landing pad for the 5+ save? You hit on 3+ too. 110 pts is a fair bit but the vulture already seems cheap. You can put some HWSs or something up there too.

I acquired 2 Valkyries and a Vendetta in 7th. Shame they are trash now, they're such amazing models!

The Stormhammer keeps looking more and more like my go-to superheavy.

Every time I point out a list, I end up essentially with a Baneblade with a 100-point discount (e.g. 480 vs 571) and arguably more firepower.

Colonel Cross wrote:
I acquired 2 Valkyries and a Vendetta in 7th. Shame they are trash now, they're such amazing models!

Valkyries are possibly the best transport in the game now. No other transport can have a unit move after disembarking. It could get FAQed though. Vendettas are still pretty good they just have to hover now. Basically they have gone back to how they worked in 5th. They have 1 less toughness than a russ, yet 2 more wounds. Hardly made of paper.

So the Death Korps take vanilla tank commanders but have to take their own weird tanks?

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
So the Death Korps take vanilla tank commanders but have to take their own weird tanks?

They take the normal tank commander datasheet. None of the tanks in the book can be tank commanders, which is a shame.