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 Frazzled wrote:

So in other words, you lied.

No, but you changed the parameters of what we were talking about to body counts.

 Frazzled wrote:
The Klan was an organization designed to keep Jim Crow going. It had as much to do with Christianity as my ass does to why Trexas liked coconuts.
Plus they're effectively dead.

Well, the original inception of the Klan, as an insurgency is, sure. However, the KKK is very much alive.

 Frazzled wrote:

What are the other 95% of "terrrorism" You can't accuse Christians unless they actually did it in the name of their religion.
Seriously?

Towers
9/11
attempted shoe bomber
Fort Hood
Marathon

Here's a sampler:

July 27, 1996
A nail-packed bomb goes off at the Atlanta Olympics, which are seen by many extremists as part of a Satanic "New World Order," killing one person and injuring more than 100 others. Investigators will later conclude the attack is linked to 1997-1998 bombings of an Atlanta-area abortion clinic, an Atlanta gay bar and a Birmingham, Ala., abortion facility. Suspect Eric Robert Rudolph — a reclusive North Carolina man tied to the anti-Semitic Christian Identity theology — flees into the woods of his native state after he is identified in early 1998 as a suspect in the Birmingham attack, and is only captured five years later. Eventually, he pleads guilty to all of the attacks attributed to him in exchange for life without parole.

October 8, 1996
Three "Phineas Priests" — racist and anti-Semitic Christian Identity terrorists who feel they've been called by God to undertake violent attacks — are charged in connection with two bank robberies and bombings at the two banks, a Spokane newspaper and a Planned Parenthood office. Charles Barbee, Robert Berry and Jay Merrell are eventually convicted and sentenced to life terms. Brian Ratigan, a fourth member of the group arrested separately, draws a 55-year term; he is scheduled for release in 2045.

July 1, 1999
A gay couple, Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder, are shot to death in bed at their home near Redding, Calif. Days later, after tracking purchases made on Mowder's stolen credit card, police arrest brothers Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams. At least one of the pair, Matthew Williams (both use their middle names), is an adherent of the anti-Semitic Christian Identity theology. Police soon learn that the brothers two weeks earlier carried out arson attacks against three synagogues and an abortion clinic in Sacramento. Both brothers, whose mother at one point refers in a conversation to her sons' victims as "two homos," eventually admit their guilt — in Matthew's case, in a newspaper interview. Matthew, who at one point badly injures a guard in a surprise attack, commits suicide in 2002. Tyler, who pleads guilty to an array of charges in the case, and is given two sentences amounting to 50 years to be served consecutively.

March 1, 2001
As part of an ongoing probe into a white supremacist group, federal and local law enforcement agents raid the Corbett, Ore., home of Fritz Springmeier, seizing equipment to grow marijuana and weapons and racist literature. They also find a binder notebook entitled "Army of God, Yahweh's Warriors" that contains what officials call a list of targets, including a local federal building and the FBI's Oregon offices. Springmeier, an associate of the anti-Semitic Christian Patriots Association, is eventually charged with setting off a diversionary bomb at an adult video store in Damascus, Ore., in 1997 as part of a bank robbery carried out by accomplice Forrest Bateman Jr. Another 2001 raid finds small amounts of bomb materials and marijuana in Bateman's home. Eventually, Bateman pleads guilty to bank robbery and Springmeier is convicted of the same charges. Both are sentenced to nine years, and have release dates in 2011.

October 14, 2001
A North Carolina sheriff's deputy pulls over Steve Anderson, a former "colonel" in the Kentucky Militia, on a routine traffic stop as he heads home to Kentucky from a white supremacist gathering in North Carolina. Anderson, who is an adherent of racist Christian Identity theology and has issued violent threats against officials for months via an illegal pirate radio station, pulls out a semi-automatic weapon and peppers the deputy's car with bullets before driving his truck into the woods and disappearing for 13 months. Officials later find six pipe bombs in Anderson's abandoned truck and 27 bombs and destructive devices in his home. In the end, Anderson apologizes for his actions and pleads guilty. He is sentenced on a variety of firearms charges to 15 years in federal prison.

February 13, 2003
Federal agents in Pennsylvania arrest David Wayne Hull, imperial wizard of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and an adherent of the anti-Semitic Christian Identity theology, alleging that Hull arranged to buy hand grenades to blow up abortion clinics. The FBI says Hull also illegally instructed followers on how to build pipe bombs. Hull, who published a newsletter in which he urged readers to write Oklahoma City bomber Tim McVeigh "to tell this great man goodbye," is found guilty of weapons violations and sentenced to 12 years in federal prison. He is released in July 2012.

May 20, 2005
Officials in New Jersey arrest two men they say asked a police informant to build them a bomb. Craig Orler, who has a history of burglary arrests, and Gabriel Carafa, said to be a leader of the neo-Nazi World Church of the Creator and a member of a racist Skinhead group called The Hated, are charged with illegally selling 11 guns to police informants. Carafa gave one informant 60 pounds of urea to use in building him a bomb, but never said what the bomb was for. Police say they moved in before the alleged bombing plot developed further because they were concerned about the pair's activities. They taped Orler saying in a phone call that he was seeking people in Europe to help him go underground. Orler is sentenced to more than 10 years in prison, while Carafa draws seven.

March 27-28, 2010
Nine members of the Hutaree Militia are arrested in raids in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana and charged with seditious conspiracy and attempted use of weapons of mass destruction. The group, whose website said it was preparing for the imminent arrival of the anti-Christ, allegedly planned to murder a Michigan police officer, then use bombs and homemade missiles to kill other officers attending the funeral, all in a bid to set off a war with the government. Joshua Clough pleads guilty to a weapons charge in December 2011. A federal judge dismisses charges against seven members of the group during a trial in March 2012, saying their hatred of law enforcement did not amount to a conspiracy. Militia leader David Stone and his son Joshua Stone plead guilty to gun charges two days after the trial. In August 2012, a federal judge chooses not to send the Stones back to prison. They are each fined $100 and placed on two years’ supervision. Another member, Jacob Ward, awaits a separate trial.

Sept. 2, 2010
A pipe bomb is thrown through the window of a closed Planned Parenthood clinic in Madera, Calif., along with a note that reads, “Murder our children? We have a ‘choice’ too.” The note is signed ANB, apparently short for the American Nationalist Brotherhood. Six months later, law enforcement officials arrest school bus driver Donny Eugene Mower, who allegedly also threatened a local Islamic Center and has the word “Peckerwood,” a reference to a white supremacist gang, tattooed on his chest. Mower reportedly confesses to the attack.

Sept. 7, 2010
The FBI arrests 26-year-old Justin Carl Moose, a self-described “freedom fighter” and “Christian counterpart to Osama bin Laden,” for allegedly planning to blow up a North Carolina abortion clinic. After earlier receiving tips that Moose was posting threats of violence against abortion providers and information about explosives on his Facebook page, the FBI set up a sting operation to capture him. Moose later pleads guilty to distributing information on manufacturing and use of an explosive and is sentenced to 30 months in prison. He is released in November 2012.

March 27-28, 2010
Nine members of the Hutaree Militia are arrested in raids in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana and charged with seditious conspiracy and attempted use of weapons of mass destruction. The group, whose website said it was preparing for the imminent arrival of the anti-Christ, allegedly planned to murder a Michigan police officer, then use bombs and homemade missiles to kill other officers attending the funeral, all in a bid to set off a war with the government. Joshua Clough pleads guilty to a weapons charge in December 2011. A federal judge dismisses charges against seven members of the group during a trial in March 2012, saying their hatred of law enforcement did not amount to a conspiracy. Militia leader David Stone and his son Joshua Stone plead guilty to gun charges two days after the trial. In August 2012, a federal judge chooses not to send the Stones back to prison. They are each fined $100 and placed on two years’ supervision. Another member, Jacob Ward, awaits a separate trial.

May 14, 2011
Three masked men break into the Madrasah Islamiah, an Islamic center in Houston, and douse prayer rugs with gasoline in an apparent attempt to burn the center down. Images of the men are captured on surveillance cameras, but they are not identified. The fire is put out before doing major damage.

August 24, 2011
Cody Seth Crawford, 24, is arrested on federal charges accusing him of the Nov. 28, 2010, arson of the Salman Alfarisi Islamic Center in Corvallis, Ore. The firebombing occurred two days after a former Oregon State University student was arrested in a plot to detonate a car bomb during Portland's annual tree-lighting. Crawford had ranted about Muslims and described himself as a Christian warrior during previous run-ins with police.

4,000 dead so far. We're not stripping down at the airport because of Christian terrorists.

Get real.

 Frazzled wrote:
4,000 dead so far. We're not stripping down at the airport because of Christian terrorists.

Get real.

Yeah, bluntly if you take 9/11 and the grand total of the KKK into account, good white American Christians and those dirty Islamic untermench are pretty much neck and neck for dead Americans. But foiled terror plots, arson, and bombings with low media visibility (either not on camera or had low body counts) don't make the national news unless they happen to pay to whatever narrative the media outlets are pushing at the time. Neither do Americans killing people in other countries in the name of God. (Unless the dead people are also Americans).

Seriously, blow up a building with a rag on your head and make the news. Derail a train in Arizona in the name of God and no one ever hears about you.

And, as far as stripping down at airports because of terrorism, you aren't. That entire charade exists to make it look like the US government is doing something about terrorism.

 Frazzled wrote:
4,000 dead so far. We're not stripping down at the airport because of Christian terrorists.

Get real.

The fact that we're stripping down because of Muslim terrorists is better?

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
4,000 dead so far. We're not stripping down at the airport because of Christian terrorists.

Get real.

The fact that we're stripping down because of Muslim terrorists is better?

Just looking for a little truth in advertising here.

Terrorism is probably one of the lowest causes of death in the US.

The fact that we are letting them win like this is just stupid.

 d-usa wrote:
Terrorism is probably one of the lowest causes of death in the US.

The fact that we are letting them win like this is just stupid.

Even if it wasn't, media coverage makes it seem like there's a terrorist lurking behind every woodpile.

I'll be honest, the US has no idea what to do with itself if there's not some big scary thing lurking out there someplace, waiting for them. Before terrorists it was communists, and before them anarchists, and then before that it was Indians, with a brief interlude of abolitionists/copperheads/redlegs. You never know if Joe the Postman is secretly in bed with the KGB.

 d-usa wrote:
Terrorism is probably one of the lowest causes of death in the US.

The fact that we are letting them win like this is just stupid.

You are an order of magnitude more likely to be killed by a policeman than by a terrorist, statistically.

Or a bee, or a dog, or a dog that when he barks, he shoots bees.

The big scary thing killed scaddles of people and could be seen from space. Then they keep trying.

In Texas Comanches were a real menace. They had their own empire and traided through Texas and northern Mexico.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Terrorism is probably one of the lowest causes of death in the US.

The fact that we are letting them win like this is just stupid.

You are an order of magnitude more likely to be killed by a policeman than by a terrorist, statistically.

Or a bee, or a dog, or a dog that when he barks, he shoots bees.

Police have pointed guns at me.
My inlaws are deathly allergic to bees. Father In Law almost died.
I had a pit bull that could crush a ribcage.
TBone's farts could kill. I've seen it.

 Ouze wrote:

You are an order of magnitude more likely to be killed by a policeman than by a terrorist, statistically.

Or a bee, or a dog, or a dog that when he barks, he shoots bees.

Getting back to the point, however, as I said, religious wackos of all flavors do find followers all over the world, whether Muslim or Jew or Christian, and regardless of if they're in the US or down town Mecca.

Seriously, look at Jim Jones.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Terrorism is probably one of the lowest causes of death in the US.

The fact that we are letting them win like this is just stupid.

Even if it wasn't, media coverage makes it seem like there's a terrorist lurking behind every woodpile.

I'll be honest, the US has no idea what to do with itself if there's not some big scary thing lurking out there someplace, waiting for them. Before terrorists it was communists, and before them anarchists, and then before that it was Indians, with a brief interlude of abolitionists/copperheads/redlegs. You never know if Joe the Postman is secretly in bed with the KGB.

Don't forget Catholics.

 Frazzled wrote:
The big scary thing killed scaddles of people and could be seen from space. Then they keep trying.

That month alone, more people died from automobile accidents in the US than 9/11.

Human Rights Watch confirms the rocket information:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/17/dispatches-mapping-sarin-flight-path




Meanwhile.Russia bastes UN report as one sided and claims that the Syrian government has given them unnamed proof that the Rebels really did it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24140475

 BaronIveagh wrote:


I'd say there's plenty of Christian extremism and violence to be had. If you'd like to up the bodycount by several orders of magnitude we could toss in the Crusades, but I felt that we should stick to recent events and organizations.

Verily, because then you'd have to include the forced Islamization of the Eastern Roman Empire and the middle east, the 19th century massacres of christian populations within the Ottoman Empire, most notably in Bulgaria and Armenia, the ethnic cleansing of Greeks from the east coast of Turkey in the early 20th century and more massacres of Armenians. You can also include current muslim populations engaging in gang rapes of European women and rioting in European cities on a semi-regular basis, the 4 day Stokholm riots being the most recent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Human Rights Watch confirms the rocket information:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/17/dispatches-mapping-sarin-flight-path


Meanwhile.Russia bastes UN report as one sided and claims that the Syrian government has given them unnamed proof that the Rebels really did it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24140475

Interesting information. I admit that I'm biased here, I don't want to see Assad replaced by the rebels, I think that would be terrible given the make up of those groups, it certainly would be bad for the Christian minority in Syria. I also don't see why the government would target two separate locations or seemingly low to no military value while the world was looking on. It screams false flag. I would also expect both attacks to be carried out with the same munitions if fired from the same base, having two different types looks like someone scraping together the materiels to make this attack.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Human Rights Watch confirms the rocket information:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/17/dispatches-mapping-sarin-flight-path

So Mr Scary Tax Accountant, who appears to be winning, not only used CW when there was UN Inspectors in the country, he also launched them directly over his own head?

Something doesn't add up here. I'm not saying he didn't do it, but I have my doubts that we are being told the whole story.

Cheers

Andrew

It does seem odd he would fire at targets of little to no military value, while he was being investigated over chemical weapons use.

Maybe the guys who fired the rockets were completely incompetent?

Maybe he is on Dakka and knew we would blame the victim?

I'll bet he plays Taudar.

>> Syria's business <<
Tinfoil hats at the ready

Some refugees from Damascus have
been extolling a wild conspiracy
theory about the start of the Syrian
civil war. They say there's a feeling
among Syrians on the street that
the troubles stem from a row
between Russia and Qatar.

In short, their story goes like this:
Qatar has been wanting to build a
pipeline to Turkey to break European
reliance on Russian oil. So the
Qatari royal family started chumming
up to Assad in order to be able to
put the pipe across Syrian land.

However, Assad is good pals with the
Russians and wasn't having any of
it. So Qatar decided to take
advantage of all that Arab Spring
business and try to engender a
public uprising against Assad in
the hopes that they'd get a more
useful leader in instead. And how
do the conspiracy theorists think
they did this? By showing
made films of anti-Assad demos on
the West's favourite Arab channel,
Al-Jazeera, (a channel owned, funnily
enough, by the Qatari government.

*shrugs*

cadbren wrote:
You can also include current muslim populations engaging in gang rapes of European women and rioting in European cities on a semi-regular basis, the 4 day Stokholm riots being the most recent.

And you know that the area is majority Muslim because...? There's no data on that, because it'd be illegal to collect in Sweden. Furthermore, are you REALLY making the argument that a majority of the Muslim population in Europe is OK with gang rape? Because that's stupid on a staggering level and the sort of froth-at-the-mouth rethoric used by some rather unsavory groups that don't tend to back their arguments up very well beyond "dem darnz moslemz!!1!".

 reds8n wrote:

>> Syria's business <<
Tinfoil hats at the ready

Some refugees from Damascus have
been extolling a wild conspiracy
theory about the start of the Syrian
civil war. They say there's a feeling
among Syrians on the street that
the troubles stem from a row
between Russia and Qatar.

In short, their story goes like this:
Qatar has been wanting to build a
pipeline to Turkey to break European
reliance on Russian oil. So the
Qatari royal family started chumming
up to Assad in order to be able to
put the pipe across Syrian land.

However, Assad is good pals with the
Russians and wasn't having any of
it. So Qatar decided to take
advantage of all that Arab Spring
business and try to engender a
public uprising against Assad in
the hopes that they'd get a more
useful leader in instead. And how
do the conspiracy theorists think
they did this? By showing
made films of anti-Assad demos on
the West's favourite Arab channel,
Al-Jazeera, (a channel owned, funnily
enough, by the Qatari government.

*shrugs*

Well if that is the case then Qatar can stump up the money for the rebel's new weapons. Even less reason for us to get involved in their p*ssing match with Russia. Anyone started to chant "No blood for gas!" yet?

cadbren wrote:

It screams false flag. I would also expect both attacks to be carried out with the same munitions if fired from the same base, having two different types looks like someone scraping together the materiels to make this attack.

The problem is that then you run into someone infiltrating the military base, setting up a launcher, and firing it, without anyone noticing you do this (and the smallest of these launchers is towed). As for as the munitions difference: not really. We don't know what the big one was, but it might have had a longer range than the MS 14. Remember that the MS 14s were firing at near the limit of their range, so they might have decided to hedge their bets. Or possibly they were testing a new munition they developed (would explain why it's unknown to the Weapons Inspectors).


Qatar has been buying them weapons. So have the Saudis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/13/world/middleeast/syrian-rebels-say-saudi-arabia-is-stepping-up-weapons-deliveries.html?_r=0


What the rebels actually need is air cover. FSA has already made it clear that if they win the war the Jihadists are next on their list after Assad, but without air support, or at least the suppression of the Syrian airforce, they're fighting an uphill battle.

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
The big scary thing killed scaddles of people and could be seen from space. Then they keep trying.

That month alone, more people died from automobile accidents in the US than 9/11.

More people die a year from Food Poisoning.

 Easy E wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
The big scary thing killed scaddles of people and could be seen from space. Then they keep trying.

That month alone, more people died from automobile accidents in the US than 9/11.

More people die a year from Food Poisoning.

Of course you can make the same argument about every war besides WWII and the Civil War that the US was in...

 Frazzled wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
The big scary thing killed scaddles of people and could be seen from space. Then they keep trying.

That month alone, more people died from automobile accidents in the US than 9/11.

More people die a year from Food Poisoning.

Of course you can make the same argument about every war besides WWII and the Civil War that the US was in...

What have we gained from Iraq?

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
The big scary thing killed scaddles of people and could be seen from space. Then they keep trying.

That month alone, more people died from automobile accidents in the US than 9/11.

More people die a year from Food Poisoning.

Of course you can make the same argument about every war besides WWII and the Civil War that the US was in...

What have we gained from Iraq?

A deep understanding that its right next to Iran. Not sure how your question is relevant.

 Frazzled wrote:
A deep understanding that its right next to Iran. Not sure how your question is relevant.

You're absolutely right! I misread your post

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

What have we gained from Iraq?

Three important lessons:

1) Preventive War is for idiots.

2) That the 1940 Marine Corps Small Wars Manual was absolutely right in that one needs to be prepared for counter insurgency actions and an understanding of the languages and cultures involved.

3) That the all volunteer model for the military does actually work when confronted with wars that last more than a year.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

What have we gained from Iraq?

Three important lessons:

1) Preventive War is for idiots.

2) That the 1940 Marine Corps Small Wars Manual was absolutely right in that one needs to be prepared for counter insurgency actions and an understanding of the languages and cultures involved.

3) That the all volunteer model for the military does actually work when confronted with wars that last more than a year.

Not from an armed forces perspective, but a personal lesson for me:

If you are going to start a conflict resulting in the creation of hundreds of thousands of veterans with service related issues, you should probably start to put the infrastructure in place to deal with their needs when you get ready to deploy them so that you are actually ready for a giant influx of new veterans into a system that is already taxed instead of playing catch-up for the next 10 years.

But that's just me.

Something I have been wondering: Maj Gen Adnan Silu, commander of the Syrian Army's chemical weapons brigade, and most of that units commanders have defected either to the FSA or fled outright (apparently they disagreed with orders). How will the Syrian's draw up a comprehensive list if everyone who knew has taken off?