Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack

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**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

If some were willing to defect to the rebels maybe someone working for the rebels launched from inside a government camp?

**BaronIveagh**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
If some were willing to defect to the rebels maybe someone working for the rebels launched from inside a government camp?

You still run in to the problem of getting access to them and then setting the launcher up without anyone noticing. Most people keep their WMDs under a little bit more security than, say, a padlock and a do not enter sign. Besides, with hat sort of access, why not just shoot Assad?

**cadbren**

BaronIveagh wrote:

Yeah, bluntly if you take 9/11 and the grand total of the KKK into account, good white American Christians and those dirty Islamic untermench are pretty much neck and neck for dead Americans.

Lynchings, which weren't just carried out by the KKK are recorded over an 80 year period and the vast majority of those killed were rapists and murderers. Most were black, about a quarter were white.

80 years compared to a single day.

None of those killed on 911 were wanted for rape, murder or some other heinous crime either, they were innocents. Most of those hung in lynchings were criminals. The idea that lynchings were all random killings against black people is wrong.

**surixurient**

Has the KKK made a big comeback I was not aware of?

**cadbren**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
cadbren wrote:
You can also include current muslim populations engaging in gang rapes of European women and rioting in European cities on a semi-regular basis, the 4 day Stokholm riots being the most recent.

And you know that the area is majority Muslim because...? There's no data on that, because it'd be illegal to collect in Sweden. Furthermore, are you REALLY making the argument that a majority of the Muslim population in Europe is OK with gang rape? Because that's stupid on a staggering level and the sort of froth-at-the-mouth rethoric used by some rather unsavory groups that don't tend to back their arguments up very well beyond "dem darnz moslemz!!1!".

I don't except someone from a country where masturbating in public is legal to understand. The rioters were overwhelmingly of muslim background as reported by people on the ground there and supported by the video of the rioters.
I said nothing about the majority of muslims being okay with gang rape, I said that muslims are responsible for nearly all gang rapes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

surixurient wrote:
Has the KKK made a big comeback I was not aware of?

As far as I'm aware, the current klan is a series of independent groups that have no real connection with either themselves or the original klan. Anyone can start a KKK group and put their own spin on it, there is no klan like the stereotyped one from the 1950s. The heyday of the klan was the early 20th century. It included politicians, doctors, lawyers etc. Today it's mostly low income or welfare types who can barely scrape 20 people together for a rally.

**Relapse**

cadbren wrote:

I don't except someone from a country where masturbating in public is legal to understand. .

Say what?

**sebster**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Considering what the results of the Reformation (MORE pointless cruelty and manipulation of the superstitions of the general population, etc) then yes I'd say that conclusion is fairly well founded for any central religious movement.

Yeah, violence due to the instability of the split. But to argue that a central power is inherently more moderate would be to argue that Catholicism over history has shown itself to be more moderate than Protestantism, which is kind of ridiculous.

The roots of the sectarian divide in Islam go back to the 8th century and the death of the Prophet without a clear successor. That's where all this Sunni/Shiite fun comes from. Start with that divide, add in a culture with a passion for revenge and long memories about perceived insult or slight, let that run for a couple centuries with periods of intense decline and out comes this BS.

In a conversation on extremism within modern Islam thought I was stretching cause and effect by going back to the origins of Wahhabism... but you dragging to back to to the death of Mohammed is something else entirely

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
The Klan was an organization designed to keep Jim Crow going. It had as much to do with Christianity as my ass does to why Trexas liked coconuts.
Plus they're effectively dead.

Are you genuinely unaware of the heavy Christian elements of the KKK, or are you just playing at some kind of no true scotsman defence?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
It does seem odd he would fire at targets of little to no military value, while he was being investigated over chemical weapons use.

The targeted towns had significant strategic value and had been assaulted by Syrian forces previously.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
If some were willing to defect to the rebels maybe someone working for the rebels launched from inside a government camp?

While this isn't a criminal trial, I think the concept of reasonable doubt works pretty well in thinking about this. I mean, yeah, its possible that some defecting group bypassed the security systems to access both the chemical munitions and launchers, and then made several attacks against rebel targets over a period of time without being stopped by loyalists... but I'm not going to call it alikely enough scenario to cast reasonable doubt on the default assumption that chemical weapons owned by Syria and launched from within the area controlled by a Syrian regular army group against rebel controlled points was, in fact, an attack by the Syrian government.

a country where masturbating in public is legal

I said that muslims are responsible for nearly all gang rapes.

A question thrown out to dakka at large - of the above two quotes, which is crazier?

**reds8n**

cadbren wrote:

I don't except someone from a country where masturbating in public is legal to understand. The rioters were overwhelmingly of muslim background as reported by people on the ground there and supported by the video of the rioters.
I said nothing about the majority of muslims being okay with gang rape, I said that muslims are responsible for nearly all gang rapes.

If you could attach your arguments to this reality when posting it'd be better all round.

It would be even better if you'd not actually post nonsense.

**Seaward**

d-usa wrote:
Terrorism is probably one of the lowest causes of death in the US.

The fact that we are letting them win like this is just stupid.

But terrorism isn't about killing the most people, it's about instilling fear. Killing 100,000 people isn't as effective as getting 100,000,000 to worry about taking that flight or getting on that bus.

**nels1031**

Its legal to masturbate in public in Sweden?

Thats good to know. For.. my friend who has a problem

The feth happened to this thread?

**BaronIveagh**

cadbren wrote:
None of those killed on 911 were wanted for rape, murder or some other heinous crime either, they were innocents. Most of those hung in lynchings were criminals. The idea that lynchings were all random killings against black people is wrong.

Is this not the same person posting who sat here and lectured us on rule of law and justice that is now claiming that lynchings are OK?

cadbren wrote:
I said that muslims are responsible for nearly all gang rapes.

Please present some actual numbers on this.

surixurient wrote:
Has the KKK made a big comeback I was not aware of?

They never left. They just have not made the news as much. Foiled terror plots don't last long in the 24 hour news cycle if they are not Muslims.

cadbren wrote:
As far as I'm aware, the current klan is a series of independent groups that have no real connection with either themselves or the original klan. Anyone can start a KKK group and put their own spin on it, there is no klan like the stereotyped one from the 1950s. The heyday of the klan was the early 20th century. It included politicians, doctors, lawyers etc. Today it's mostly low income or welfare types who can barely scrape 20 people together for a rally.

Well, first of all, the one in the 1950's didn't have much connection to the original KKK either, which was a insurgency against Union occupation during the Reconstruction.

As far as not having 20 guys... in, say, Maine maybe. They tend to have much larger rallies the further south you go. When I posted that list earlier for Frazz, I didn't include most of the KKK ones unless they had an overt religious connection, but the FBI has been quite busy arresting klansmen for intent to commit acts of terrorism and purchasing large amounts of explosives. While your bias against the poor is nice, it's not actually true (I notice you keep coming back to that welfare thing when you insult people. I have to wonder what you have against that?). . The KKK still includes lawyers, doctors, policemen, and politicians among it's number.

**d-usa**

Seaward wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Terrorism is probably one of the lowest causes of death in the US.

The fact that we are letting them win like this is just stupid.

But terrorism isn't about killing the most people, it's about instilling fear. Killing 100,000 people isn't as effective as getting 100,000,000 to worry about taking that flight or getting on that bus.

It's about changing the lifestyle of people because of that fear.

And we are letting them do that.

**KalashnikovMarine**

sebster wrote:

The roots of the sectarian divide in Islam go back to the 8th century and the death of the Prophet without a clear successor. That's where all this Sunni/Shiite fun comes from. Start with that divide, add in a culture with a passion for revenge and long memories about perceived insult or slight, let that run for a couple centuries with periods of intense decline and out comes this BS.

In a conversation on extremism within modern Islam thought I was stretching cause and effect by going back to the origins of Wahhabism... but you dragging to back to to the death of Mohammed is something else entirely

So fighting a constant all out war between two halves of your society for just under two millenia is a cause of stability, love and acceptance of all mankind is it? Just saying that they are still ACTIVELY murdering each other for being Sunni or Shiia, it's currently at the point of "Well a Sunni looked at me funny and kicked my grandfather in the bollocks, etc... so yeah we've just always hated them" type deal at this point, but the roots of a lot of the conflict really do start there.

**AlmightyWalrus**

NELS1031 wrote:
Its legal to masturbate in public in Sweden?

Thats good to know. For.. my friend who has a problem

The feth happened to this thread?

It's not in this universe. Judging from the other "arguments" I'll just not respond.

**cadbren**

BaronIveagh wrote:
cadbren wrote:
None of those killed on 911 were wanted for rape, murder or some other heinous crime either, they were innocents. Most of those hung in lynchings were criminals. The idea that lynchings were all random killings against black people is wrong.

Is this not the same person posting who sat here and lectured us on rule of law and justice that is now claiming that lynchings are OK?

Who's claiming lynchings are okay. They were always illegal though in the past they were tolerated in some areas. The point is that the lynchings weren't a bunch of "Good Christians" killing some innocent black people. Even Emmett Till was a criminal, though that didn't justify what happened to him. Comparing the victims of 911 to criminals killed by mob rule is disgraceful.

cadbren wrote:
I said that muslims are responsible for nearly all gang rapes.

Please present some actual numbers on this.

You can read something on it here.

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/08/20/the-living-hell-for-swedish-women-5-muslims-commit-nearly-77-6-of-all-rape-crimes/

http://www.clarionproject.org/news/swedish-court-hands-out-light-sentence-muslim-teen-rapists

The KKK still includes lawyers, doctors, policemen, and politicians among it's number.

Got proof of this? Pretty much all LEOs kick out people with ties to groups like the KKK. The US military I can believe, they're full of gang members - black, white, latino etc.

In regards Sweden and masturbation for those who thought I was making that up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/18/public-masturbation-legal-sweden_n_3949742.html

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Care to comment Mr not in this universe don't have a clue what's happening in my own country Walrus?

**sebster**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
So fighting a constant all out war between two halves of your society for just under two millenia is a cause of stability, love and acceptance of all mankind is it?

No, but tryng to draw a historical narrative through 1500 years is a real stretch.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

cadbren wrote:
http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/08/20/the-living-hell-for-swedish-women-5-muslims-commit-nearly-77-6-of-all-rape-crimes/

http://www.clarionproject.org/news/swedish-court-hands-out-light-sentence-muslim-teen-rapists

So two links to websites with anti-muslim objectives written right there on the top banner, and a quote from a main report that says this;
“As for murder, manslaughter, rape, other sexual offenses, robbery and burglary are the values of brottsparticipation too small to be able to draw conclusions from them.”

Which the blog then launches off from to speculate, in English I found kind of hard to parse. But from what I could tell, he claims the exact nationalities of the attackers are unknown, but the author believes so strongly that they must be from Muslim countries that there has been a conspiracy to cover this up.

None of which actually helps your case, though, as the piece is talking about all rape, and not just gang rape, as your original claim alleged.

The second link does nothing more than quote the first, and does nothing to further your argument.

In regards Sweden and masturbation for those who thought I was making that up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/18/public-masturbation-legal-sweden_n_3949742.html

"A ruling which acquitted the man of the sex assault charges this week found that although the he was publicly masturbating, he was not directing his actions at anyone in particular, according to the Local. This was enough to clear him of the sexual assault charge, though it's unclear if the action is still in violation of other statutes in Sweden."

Oh wow, you sure showed us there. A man acquitted of a more serious charge on grounds that it didn't meet a specific legal element of that charge totally means that its a masturbation free for all.

In future, read your own links. Well, unless its that muslim hate stuff you linked to earlier - don't read that. Nobody should read that stuff.

**AlmightyWalrus**

cadbren wrote:

In regards Sweden and masturbation for those who thought I was making that up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/18/public-masturbation-legal-sweden_n_3949742.html

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Care to comment Mr not in this universe don't have a clue what's happening in my own country Walrus?

Huffington Post wrote:Public masturbators in Sweden now may be able to get off without charges.

A recent court ruling in Sweden's Södertörn District Court suggests that masturbating on the beach in Sweden is "OK," according to public prosecutor Olof Vrethammar.

Vrethammar was prosecuting a 65-year-old who was charged with sexual assault after getting literally caught with his pants down in June, giving himself a sandy handy on a the Drevviken beach in Stockholm, according to The Local's translation of the Swedish newspaper Mitti.

A ruling which acquitted the man of the sex assault charges this week found that although the he was publicly masturbating, he was not directing his actions at anyone in particular, according to the Local. This was enough to clear him of the sexual assault charge, though it's unclear if the action is still in violation of other statutes in Sweden.

"With that [ruling]," prosecutor Vrethammar told the Mitti, "we can conclude that it is OK to masturbate on the beach... [although] the act may be considered to be disorderly conduct."

Dr. Liz Davies of London Metropolitan University has researched Sweden's child protection system, and told the Daily Mail the court decision surprised her.

"Sweden has a really robust child protection system and very rigorous investigation around sexual abuse," she said. "So this judgement is surprising given that such an act could be witnessed by children as well as adults."

As if that's not enough, the actual quote from the prosecutor was:

Tingsrätten har gjort en bedömning i det här enskilda fallet. Därmed kan man inte dra slutsatsen att det är okej att onanera på en badplats. Handlingen skulle möjligtvis kunna bedömas som förargelseväckande beteende.

which roughly translates to

The Court has delivered a verdict in this particular case. That does not mean that one can draw the conclusion that it's OK to masturbate on a beach. The deed could possibly be considered disorderly conduct.

He's thus been quoted as saying the exact opposite of what he did.

So yeah, I stand by my comment that your statements have no basis in reality.

**BaronIveagh**

cadbren wrote:
You can read something on it here.

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/08/20/the-living-hell-for-swedish-women-5-muslims-commit-nearly-77-6-of-all-rape-crimes/

http://www.clarionproject.org/news/swedish-court-hands-out-light-sentence-muslim-teen-rapists

That gives us exactly one gang rape. Oh, and the Clarion Project isn't exactly a good source for unbiased info. They are, after all, owned by a Radical Zionist group.

Here's a map from the Women Stats project.

Sweden can be a bit misleading as far as what constitutes rape and how many rapes take place,due to the way they process Rape and that fact that Rape has the broadest definition under the law of any Western Nation. Unprotected Consensual sex between unmarried persons is Rape, for example. This very broad defintion has lead to Sweden also having the lowest rate of conviction per rape charge. As every single supposed incident counts as a separate rape charge. So if you have a woman turn in her boyfriend and tell the police that she was raped once a day for a year, that's 300+ separate charges.

Further, the reports state that that 77% number is primarily immigrants. Not primarily Muslims. Which does make sense, considering the wide spectrum of things that are 'Rape' in Sweden, you will probably have a lot of immigrants who are unaware that unprotected sex with their girlfriends is 'rape' there, as an example.

cadbren wrote:
Got proof of this? Pretty much all LEOs kick out people with ties to groups like the KKK. The US military I can believe, they're full of gang members - black, white, latino etc.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/04/08/hate.html

http://archive.adl.org/learn/ext_us/kkk/default.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=4&item=kkk

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2010-01-08/news/1001080038_1_klan-organization-ku-klux-klan-police-officers

On the US military gangstas: I know that Cadillac used to make AFVs but something tells me that they ain't low riders.

**Jihadin**

Cadbren. You jumped to "assuming" again. We were allowed to have "passive" members from extremist groups and former gang members in the military early 90's. Then we had a racial killing in Fayetteville on Yadkin Rd. right outside Ft. Bragg NC. Then we started to do the massive "boot" of extremist and gang members. A lot of "Good for the Army" discharges happen.

We went after Extremist first.
We went after gang members next.

How do I know? I'm a EOA.

Tattoo's were the indicators. Massive tattoo checks. Also those in high risk gang areas were double checked before entry into the armed forces. Then the monitoring throughout their career. Do me a favor Cadbren. Stop jumping to "facts" that you think to know and ask someone on here in a general question. Trust me because you are throwing a perception of having a serious issue with the US Military in general.

Edit 1

Did you know the "Mafia" (Organize crime) in the USA does not screw around with the US Military? A promise they have kept since the beginning of WWII?

**Seaward**

d-usa wrote:
It's about changing the lifestyle of people because of that fear.

And we are letting them do that.

Well, no, that's not correct. In either part.

It's about achieving political goals as a result of that fear.

**xole**

Fear is the mind killer.

This thread really has got off topic now. Has anything changed or are we still at the point of standing around awkwardly because trying to get people hyped for another war failed and then we lost the sole reason to go there.

**BaronIveagh**

Jihadin wrote:

Did you know the "Mafia" (Organize crime) in the USA does not screw around with the US Military? A promise they have kept since the beginning of WWII?

Not to mention their assistance during Operation Husky.
.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24195864

Seems Comrade Putin wants the chemical weapon removal to be carried out by Russian troops, with maybe Arab or Turkish oversight. The US need not apply.

Anyone else smell a rat?

**Dreadclaw69**

xole wrote:
Fear is the mind killer.

This thread really has got off topic now. Has anything changed or are we still at the point of standing around awkwardly because trying to get people hyped for another war failed and then we lost the sole reason to go there.

Well, Russia is doing something
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24195864

Russia can send its military personnel to help in the proposed operation to eliminate Syria's chemical arms, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says.

Mr Lavrov told Russian TV that military observers could help Syria destroy its stockpiles under a US-Russian deal.

He also accused the US of using "blackmail" over a UN resolution.

The international chemical weapons watchdog, the OPCW, says Syria has met the deadline to submit details of its estimated 1,000-tonne chemical arsenal.

This was the first step in a deal, brokered by Russia and the United States, to eliminate the weapons by the middle of next year.

Specialist monitors
A large contingent of Russian troops would not be necessary - rather a small detachment of observers - Mr Lavrov told the pro-Kremlin First Channel.

Arab states and Turkey could be part of the monitoring mission, he suggested.

In the same interview, Mr Lavrov accused the US, Britain and France of being "blinded" by their objective of regime change in Syria.

He said Western countries were threatening to stop work on Syria's chemical disarmament deal unless Russia supported a UN resolution authorising military action against the government of President Bashar al-Assad.

Russia - a key ally of the Syrian government - has blocked previous such resolutions in the Security Council.

Mr Lavrov said the OPCW was "about to make a decision" on Syria but the process had been placed in jeopardy by the "arrogant position of some Western partners".

"Our American partners are beginning to blackmail us," he said. The US, Britain and France should, he argued, be focused instead on the "unique opportunity" to solve the problem of Syria's chemical weapons.

In Syria on Sunday a mortar round hit the compound of the Russian embassy, in the capital, Damascus.

There were no immediate reports of injuries in the attack. The area in central Damascus where the embassy is located has regularly been targeted by rebel forces.

**Relapse**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
xole wrote:
Fear is the mind killer.

This thread really has got off topic now. Has anything changed or are we still at the point of standing around awkwardly because trying to get people hyped for another war failed and then we lost the sole reason to go there.

Well, Russia is doing something
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24195864

Russia can send its military personnel to help in the proposed operation to eliminate Syria's chemical arms, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says.

Mr Lavrov told Russian TV that military observers could help Syria destroy its stockpiles under a US-Russian deal.

He also accused the US of using "blackmail" over a UN resolution.

The international chemical weapons watchdog, the OPCW, says Syria has met the deadline to submit details of its estimated 1,000-tonne chemical arsenal.

This was the first step in a deal, brokered by Russia and the United States, to eliminate the weapons by the middle of next year.

Specialist monitors
A large contingent of Russian troops would not be necessary - rather a small detachment of observers - Mr Lavrov told the pro-Kremlin First Channel.

Arab states and Turkey could be part of the monitoring mission, he suggested.

In the same interview, Mr Lavrov accused the US, Britain and France of being "blinded" by their objective of regime change in Syria.

He said Western countries were threatening to stop work on Syria's chemical disarmament deal unless Russia supported a UN resolution authorising military action against the government of President Bashar al-Assad.

Russia - a key ally of the Syrian government - has blocked previous such resolutions in the Security Council.

Mr Lavrov said the OPCW was "about to make a decision" on Syria but the process had been placed in jeopardy by the "arrogant position of some Western partners".

"Our American partners are beginning to blackmail us," he said. The US, Britain and France should, he argued, be focused instead on the "unique opportunity" to solve the problem of Syria's chemical weapons.

In Syria on Sunday a mortar round hit the compound of the Russian embassy, in the capital, Damascus.

There were no immediate reports of injuries in the attack. The area in central Damascus where the embassy is located has regularly been targeted by rebel forces.

Well, that's a nice way of getting Russian troops in there. I wonder how much "self defense" they'll have to do. The stink on the whole situation is enough to knock a buzzard off a gak wagon and I am convinced more than ever we stay out of it.

**Dreadclaw69**

Relapse wrote:
Well, that's a nice way of getting Russian troops in there. I wonder how much "self defense" they'll have to do. The stink on the whole situation is enough to knock a buzzard off a gak wagon and I am convinced more than ever we stay out of it.

Maybe it'll be like Georgia where some Syrians suddenly find themselves with Russian nationality