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@Killkrazy: old cynic
that dismisses the 2/3 of Visions that is not dedicated to new releases, but showcases the creativity of the community...
if anyone feels it is not worth the asking price, that is understandable, but for people who don't take a look in, and then go on to say that GW does not interact with the community, except to fleece our wallets, it is so frustrating (this observation is not directed at you, as such)...

it is like how earlier, Az found it odd that Talys would send pics to the WD crew, but is more than happy to say that nobody at HQ listens to the community, or how people have criticized me for saying that i correspond with writers, painters, and sculptors as name dropping...
readers's models are featured each month, and Dan at WD actively solicites submissions from painters who have done good work...
i know i was blown away the first time he sent me an email asking me to submit some photos...
on Facebook i am in touch with at least half of the studio...
being able to interact with the writers, painters, and sculptors goes a long way to make one feel included, compared to Kirby and Crew's ivory tower separation from the community..

@TheAuldGrump: as a digital buyer, the layout of Visions was perfect from issue #1, so i got a different first impression of the magazine...
i don't feel like it competes with free pictures on the internet, because the majority of what i have seen in each issue are pics that i have not stumbled across in the vast labyrinth that is the internet...
compared to the new weekly White Dwarf, which just looks like a PDF on the iPad, Visions looks like a work of art...
the digital presentation is beautiful, and i have become a fan of the interactive features of the enhanced editions of GW's iPad publications...
the amount of Dakka users who have switched to tablets for the convenience of having their publications all together on one small is pretty significant, so i would keep in mind that print has to compete with that nowdays...

@H.B.M.C.: i don't see how anything that GW creates is "imagination-stiffling"...
this whole hobby is about using your imagination to bring the settings to life...
anyone who is predisposed to going beyond the standardization of the kits will create very imaginative kit bashes, conversions, scratch builds, and terrain...
for others, who's imaginations are not as unfettered as the mad geniuses in the P&M blogs, there are the beautiful RoB tiles from Forge World, and plastic terrain...
it doesn't seem to me like the potential for expressing one's creativity is stiffled by GW, as much as it feels like they are determined to provide one-stop-shopping, for better or worse, depending on your perspective...



it seems to me, there are a lot of people who are predisposed to dislike anything that GW is doing these days, because the direction of the company doesn't live up to the way things were in the old days...
for some, modern GW can do no right, and you have taken your hobby money elsewhere...
that is totally understandable...

my main issue is with how you guys respond to those of us who still like the product as if we think GW can do no wrong, or live in some GW only bubble, and that we are lacking in critical thinking ability, and are somehow blind to what the competition is capable of...
i only reward GW's current moves with my money because i see improvements to the product line, such as plastic characters, vehicles, and squad boxes, and iPad enhanced edition publications...
those are the only things that i buy, as they are the only three things that meet the standards in order to qualify for my money...
there are plenty of GW products that don't, just as there are huge amounts of the competitors' products that don't meet my standard for spending, none of which have anything to do with price, but everything to do with quality...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

stiffled

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I didn't find it odd that Talys should submit photos, I found it at odds with his insistence in previous threads that what GW thought of him as a customer irrelevant.

 jah-joshua wrote:
@TheAuldGrump: as a digital buyer, the layout of Visions was perfect from issue #1, so i got a different first impression of the magazine...
i don't feel like it competes with free pictures on the internet, because the majority of what i have seen in each issue are pics that i have not stumbled across in the vast labyrinth that is the internet...
compared to the new weekly White Dwarf, which just looks like a PDF on the iPad, Visions looks like a work of art...
the digital presentation is beautiful, and i have become a fan of the interactive features of the enhanced editions of GW's iPad publications...
the amount of Dakka users who have switched to tablets for the convenience of having their publications all together on one small is pretty significant, so i would keep in mind that print has to compete with that nowdays...
cheers
jah

Which does not address the loss of the print magazines in stores as a form of exposure.

Nor does it need to be the same images on the internet that the magazine needs to compete with - it is competing with Cool Mini or Not, and with every gamer that has a showcase on his website. (Not as many as what was once the case - there used to be lots of showcases on GeoCities... I miss them more than I do White Dwarf.)

Further, in that first issue of Visions - many of the images did appear in the internet - on GW's own site!

That said, I do not disagree with the convenience of having the rules on a reader - that is how I usually access my Pathfinder books.

But I do not bother with subscription magaines on my reader - I much prefer print for magazines.

The Auld Grump

 Azreal13 wrote:
Also, I didn't find it odd that Talys should submit photos, I found it at odds with his insistence in previous threads that what GW thought of him as a customer irrelevant.

But that isn't what you said, Az. You said, with respect to sharing photos with GW --

 Azreal13 wrote:
(do you really do that?!)

Context is also important. I have consistently said that everyone at GW I have ever had contact with has been pleasant and has gone out of their way to be helpful. They are nice folks. I've also said that I could care less about how corporate management thinks of me (for example, a statistic? a target demographic? a highly valued customer? who knows, who cares?), any more than I do a company like Microsoft or Apple.

Keep in mind that I've had dealings with TONS of other vendors that are absolutely miserable if I ever call them. Yet I still buy things from them or use their product(s).

It's not really mutually exclusive to like the way a company treats you, yet not particularly buy more of their product; or not like the way a company treats you, and not particularly buy less of their product. Of course, I'm going to be more well-disposed to a company I like, but at the end of the day, for me, I buy generally products I want, and not really to support a company I like or hurt a company I dislike. And all things being equal, I'll give the company I like my business -- the thing is, very often, things are not equal.

You don't read well do you?

How do you find "do you really do that?" In any way evidence that I don't find it at odds with what you've previously said? In fact, I'd say it's fairly indicative that it was exactly what I was thinking.

Either way, there's a fair deal of cognitive dissonance going on here, but whatever it takes for you to balance your mental books.

@Az - "Do you really do that?!" implies that you find it strange (or odd). At least it would to most reasonable people.

Whatever cognitive dissonance is going on, I'm happy doing what I do I don't think GW is a perfect company, but their products give me lots of enjoyment -- both in the modelling and the gaming aspects -- and as long as that continues, they'll keep getting my money.

Not really much more complicated than that.

Yep. Exactly what I said. I found it odd.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yep. Exactly what I said. I found it odd.

Now I'm really confused.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Also, I didn't find it odd that Talys should submit photos, I found it at odds with his insistence in previous threads that what GW thought of him as a customer irrelevant.

Oh well, whatever. Has nothing to do with GW financials

Something is "at odds" with something else if it appears to contradict it.

Surely you can understand that if I found something contradictory, I would also find it odd/strange/confusing/whatever?

Yeah, the whole but i think it is ok argument is nice, but the financials say, that you are a minority, and GW wants you to be the majority.

Am I the only one who doesn't see what's so darn special about that howling banshee model? I mean, it's a stock Bansee leader model with minor green stuffing and stuff... The sword is stock, the gun is stock, the helm and body is stock... Not a conversion, not even a kitbash, The scenery is nice, but not exactly wraithbone construct. It's just generic alien terrain with an oddly flat surface on top...

I can see stuff like that (or better...mostly better) on facebook these days, for free...so I don't need a $10 magazine to gawk at it, when I can speak with the content creator and even learn how to do it myself from other means like on facebook... a $10 magazine doesn't afford you such luxuries.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't see what's so darn special about that howling banshee model? I mean, it's a stock Bansee leader model with minor green stuffing and stuff... The sword is stock, the gun is stock, the helm and body is stock... .

The arms are reposed, and the helmet most certainly isn't stock. Looks to be a sculpt. And YMMV, obviously, but I think the base is awesome... and that's coming from someone with an extreme distaste in general for models posed up on pillars for dramatic effect...

The fact that you look at it and see what looks like a stock model is actually a part of what makes it a great model. Not a model I would personally pay money to see, but it's a lovely piece of work.

 insaniak wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't see what's so darn special about that howling banshee model? I mean, it's a stock Bansee leader model with minor green stuffing and stuff... The sword is stock, the gun is stock, the helm and body is stock... .

The arms are reposed, and the helmet most certainly isn't stock. Looks to be a sculpt. And YMMV, obviously, but I think the base is awesome... and that's coming from someone with an extreme distaste in general for models posed up on pillars for dramatic effect...

The fact that you look at it and see what looks like a stock model is actually a part of what makes it a great model. Not a model I would personally pay money to see, but it's a lovely piece of work.

I wouldn't call it a conversion, and I have certainly seen that helmet before, because I have a banshee helmet that looks just like that (the hair is different)

If anything, it's a minor reposition of existing pieces, not conversion. a Conversion would be taking a kit, like a Bloodletter, and making it look completely different (IE not a bloodletter) Making a banshee look like another banshee is...not a conversion. And since they don't show you how to do it yourself, it's all useless, If i'm paying someone $10 for a magazine with pretty models, I expect tutorials, etc. All of which I can get on facebook these days. GW is marketing to a non-market nowadays. In the realm of the internet, information is king. Pretty pictures for $10 is useless to us.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
...because I have a banshee helmet that looks just like that (the hair is different)

So... exactly the same, aside from the different bits?

The hair is certainly sculpted. And the shape of the mouth grill is different to the standard models, which leads me to believe that the whole head is sculpted.

If anything, it's a minor reposition of existing pieces, not conversion.

If it involves modifying the original parts in any way, it's a conversion.

 insaniak wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
...because I have a banshee helmet that looks just like that (the hair is different)

So... exactly the same, aside from the different bits?

The hair is certainly sculpted. And the shape of the mouth grill is different to the standard models, which leads me to believe that the whole head is sculpted.

If anything, it's a minor reposition of existing pieces, not conversion.

If it involves modifying the original parts in any way, it's a conversion.

w/e, just mincing semantics at this point, can we at least agree a magazine should be doing more for $10 than just showing me pretty pictures? because I can look at better pictures on facebook groups, etc.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
, can we at least agree a magazine should be doing more for $10 than just showing me pretty pictures?

Sure. I already said I wouldn't be interested in paying for it.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
...because I have a banshee helmet that looks just like that (the hair is different)

So... exactly the same, aside from the different bits?

The hair is certainly sculpted. And the shape of the mouth grill is different to the standard models, which leads me to believe that the whole head is sculpted.

If anything, it's a minor reposition of existing pieces, not conversion.

If it involves modifying the original parts in any way, it's a conversion.

w/e, just mincing semantics at this point, can we at least agree a magazine should be doing more for $10 than just showing me pretty pictures? because I can look at better pictures on facebook groups, etc.

@PHS: that Banshee is incredible, and definitely fits with the definition of a conversion...
i don't know why you would want to dismiss the hard work and originality that went into the piece...

the real question is, had you seen the piece online before Talys posted it???
i hadn't, so GW did their job of providing me inspiration with their mag...

a subscription to Vision costs $80usd for 12 issues...
that's just over $6.50usd per issue versus $8.99usd when bought individually...
i am more than happy to pay around $6.50 a month for pretty pictures that i would not have seen otherwise...
even better, that is GW themselves providing a discount to its customers...

the problem with the internet, is that there is so much information, you have to wade through a lot of rubbish to get to the good stuff...
i've not seen a single poorly painted model showcased in Visions, but i see hundreds each month online...

the point being, i am more than willing to contribute to GW's revenue, because i look more at what GW is producing (and i like it), rather than dwelling on what they are not doing, or what they used to do...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
@H.B.M.C.: i don't see how anything that GW creates is "imagination-stiffling"...
this whole hobby is about using your imagination to bring the settings to life...
anyone who is predisposed to going beyond the standardization of the kits will create very imaginative kit bashes, conversions, scratch builds, and terrain...
for others, who's imaginations are not as unfettered as the mad geniuses in the P&M blogs, there are the beautiful RoB tiles from Forge World, and plastic terrain...
it doesn't seem to me like the potential for expressing one's creativity is stiffled by GW, as much as it feels like they are determined to provide one-stop-shopping, for better or worse, depending on your perspective...

I didn't say that anything they create stifles imagination. I said the RoB board does, because it does. A playing surface should be flat. You then put terrain on that surface. You build the world you're playing on with the terrain you have. The RoB doesn't do that. It has that hill, split into 4, and it's always there. You can't do anything about it. It's always going to be that hill. There's always going to be those skulldanium veins. And GW replaced all their surfaces with it.

Nice open field for warhammer? Still has that hill.
Forested area? Long as it has that hill!
City battle? Taking place on a hill!!!

It is, in my mind, one of the worst products that GW has ever produced both because of how limiting it is and also because it's so expensive and you could better spend that money on more actual terrain. Compare it to one of GW's best terrain products, the Citadel Battlemat. Simple. 6x4 flat, featureless green. Can be used for just about anything (other than cities). And you get to choose where the hills go, or even have the choice to not use hills at all.

And the FW tiles? They don't need to be tiles. The terrain features on those tiles are great, but in now way to any of them need to be tied to big 2x2 boards.

I'm sure I've seen that Banshee before, the base is pretty distinctive, I follow a *lot* of miniature painting blogs/pages/groups on facebook.

Of course, it kinda pales when I see stuff like this



And how about this scratch build chaplain?



See? I don't *need* Visions to see beautiful models or scratch builds or conversions. What I want is more interactive experiences, like getting tutorials on *how* to do the amazing things seen.

@H.B.M.C.: fair enough...

@PHS: i'm sorry, but i don't see how the Banshee pales in comparison to Demidov's Titan...
they are both beautiful, but i appreciate the simplicity of the Banshee's style just as much as i appreciate the complex freehand of the Titan...
they are equally original works, in two completely different ways...

Joe Orteza's version of Grimaldus is a nice piece, for sure...

if you don't like a certain GW product, i can't argue with that...
i just don't share your perspective...
the internet is a great resource for inspiration, and in my opinion, so are GW publications...
the fact that GW gives hobbyists a chance to have their work showcased in an industry publication, gives them a whole other value over self-publication online...
who doesn't like a little recognition for their hard work???

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
@H.B.M.C.: fair enough...

@PHS: i'm sorry, but i don't see how the Banshee pales in comparison to Demidov's Titan...
they are both beautiful, but i appreciate the simplicity of the Banshee's style just as much as i appreciate the complex freehand of the Titan...
they are equally original works, in two completely different ways...

Joe Orteza's version of Grimaldus is a nice piece, for sure...

if you don't like a certain GW product, i can't argue with that...
i just don't share your perspective...
the internet is a great resource for inspiration, and in my opinion, so are GW publications...
the fact that GW gives hobbyists a chance to have their work showcased in an industry publication, gives them a whole other value over self-publication online...
who doesn't like a little recognition for their hard work???

cheers
jah

I don't expect you to share my perspective, but I do expect you to understand my perspective, which hasn't been understood from my cursory reading of this thread.
Why help another company make money with your creation instead of making that money for yourself? Why help a brand that shows disdain for it's own customers instead of boosting your own brand?

i do understand your perspective...
you feel you don't need to give money to GW, and have a dislike for the current state of the company, right???

i have no problem with helping another company make money with my creation, because they do the same for me...
that is the point...
if you are a commission painter, and you get a miniature published by GW, that will bring more attention to your work...
it does not cost anyone anything to submit their photos to the WD crew...

Kirby may have disdain for the customers, Dan Harden (who is the guy that solicites the miniatures that will be showcased) is a really nice guy, and has never shown me any disdain...
neither has anyone i have ever come into contact with in the studio...

i'm not trying to convince you of anything, by the way...
i'm just explaining why i am still a happy customer...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
i do understand your perspective...
you feel you don't need to give money to GW, and have a dislike for the current state of the company, right???

i have no problem with helping another company make money with my creation, because they do the same for me...
that is the point...
if you are a commission painter, and you get a miniature published by GW, that will bring more attention to your work...
it does not cost anyone anything to submit their photos to the WD crew...

Kirby may have disdain for the customers, Dan Harden (who is the guy that solicites the miniatures that will be showcased) is a really nice guy, and has never shown me any disdain...
neither has anyone i have ever come into contact with in the studio...

i'm not trying to convince you of anything, by the way...
i'm just explaining why i am still a happy customer...

cheers
jah

Kirby still moves the company's extremities, the company's sales policies and pricing policies only seek to alienate their customer base. Why support that?

Yeah, there are good guys who work for the company, but they're not in a position to change anything, they have no real power in the company. Kirby made it very clear that he thought the hobby was just buying boxes of models and displaying the boxes like collectibles, never opening them or playing with them. His views are what alienate the customer base.

i support GW because, at the end of the day, they make my favorite miniatures...

cheers
jah

I don't know how you can possibly say the Howling Banshee is just a kitbash or not a conversion. It's 100% a conversion, and a beautiful one at that.

The mask is not a stock mask, and the hair is not what the model normally looks like, nor is there a streamer; the shoulder pads don't look like that.. et cetera. The stock howling banshee kit is here, in case you're curious, right above the conversion, to make it easy to see how different they are:



If it's not your cup of tea, whatever -- everyone has different tastes. I think it's pretty awesome, and I wish I had the skill to create that. By the way, the best conversions IMO are the most subtle ones. Yes, there is a lot of free stuff on the Internet. But just because I can get news free on the Internet doesn't mean I won't buy subscriptions to periodicals, either.

 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Kirby still moves the company's extremities, the company's sales policies and pricing policies only seek to alienate their customer base. Why support that?

Yeah, there are good guys who work for the company, but they're not in a position to change anything, they have no real power in the company. Kirby made it very clear that he thought the hobby was just buying boxes of models and displaying the boxes like collectibles, never opening them or playing with them. His views are what alienate the customer base.

I don't find the prices extreme because the 2 companies that I like miniatures from the most are Games Workshop and Privateer Press, and the cost of the miniatures are about the same. I also like Infinity models, and they're about the same price too. There are lots of vendors that have odd models I like, but I like modelling armies mostly, and you can't model armies out of odd models. Would I like cheaper prices? Who wouldn't? But that's neither here nor there. Whether I paint 20 GW, PP, or Infinity models, I'll be paying about the same price for the lot of them.

There is no particular sales policy that really bothers me. The most often quoted is "direct only" -- which actually means web only, and after asking around a bit, I discovered that any vendor who agrees to maintain minimum stocking levels gets 1 free shipping web order per month (and free shipping on all regular orders). It's not unreasonable: they just need to stock at least 1 of a bunch of items, including all the popular books and the most popular kits. The number of items that are on games workshop's website that is in stock and that my independent can't order is... I think, zero.

The limited release thing can be annoying, I guess. But there are so few items in that category. In the last 24 months, Plasma Obliterator and VSG are the only 2 items I could have possibly cared about.

Australian sales policies are a whole other ball of wax, and if I lived there it would be different. But I don't, so it's hard for me to be outraged.

I happen to like their products, and I love their rapid release schedule.

Some people seem to be puzzled (and some disappointed) that GW isn't going through a financial crash and burn. I'm just trying to give you some perspective as to why I buy stuff from them, and obviously, if there are more people like me (who are happy) they'll do ok; I'm not trying to make you a convert, or to like them any more.

Regarding what Jah said about getting a mini published -- no doubt it's helpful if you're a commission painter! It's no different than a designer having a kitchen or living room featured in a magazine. But even if you're not a pro, it's still exciting and cool. And why shouldn't it be? Shameless plug: one my minis is the model of the week in this week's issue, WD80

 Talys wrote:

Australian sales policies are a whole other ball of wax, and if I lived there it would be different. But I don't, so it's hard for me to be outraged.

So what you're saying is... "Got mine, don't care."

I mean, you're basically telling us that if GW raised everything to Australian prices everywhere except your town, you'd still think they were a great company with a well-valued product... and that it was just "too bad" for everyone living outside your city.

@Xcaliber:

That's not really fair, because a LOT of stuff in Australia seems to be very expensive.

For example, a friend bought an XB1 with a crappy title in Australia for over $600 AUD not too long ago.

Yet an XB1 in Canada (where the dollar is about equal to AUD) with the Master Chief Collection is $350.

Now, granted he got the Kinect, which is a $100 difference, but he said he couldn't get it at the time without. But w/e, even comparing $350 to $500 -- especially when you throw in Master Chief Collection -- that's just huge.

To put this into perspective, too, the XB1 with Halo Master Chief Collection is $350 Canadian or $262 USD. But it's like, $340 USD just across the border. People from Washington State literally drive up to buy them in Vancouver because it's like, 22% cheaper. Yet when it comes to printed books, Canadians almost always get screwed.

Do I hate Microsoft? Am I outraged? No. I have no idea why some stuff is more expensive there. I don't know wherefore there are such dramatic price differences. I wish it weren't so. But I don't think every company is out there to just screw Australians, and it's unrealistic to expect that everyone in the world adjust their buying habits to support only companies that give all countries relatively equitable pricing -- because then you'd end up not buying much of anything at all.

I do not apply a lower standard of what I find acceptable to Games Workshop than I do other companies. I just happen to also not apply a higher standard, either.

 Talys wrote:
@Xcaliber:

That's not really fair, because a LOT of stuff in Australia seems to be very expensive.

For example, a friend bought an XB1 with a crappy title in Australia for over $600 AUD not too long ago.

Yet, compare Australian prices from other miniatures companies. GW is in a league of their own with miniature pricing.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Talys wrote:
@Xcaliber:

That's not really fair, because a LOT of stuff in Australia seems to be very expensive.

For example, a friend bought an XB1 with a crappy title in Australia for over $600 AUD not too long ago.

Yet, compare Australian prices from other miniatures companies. GW is in a league of their own with miniature pricing.

Right, I'm not trying to justify what GW (or Microsoft is doing).

In the context of GW, they claim that because they want a local distribution center and a bunch of local stores, the prices have to be higher -- I don't know if this is true, or a load of baloney. I assume there must be some rational reason for it other than, "we hate Australians", especially since there's a lot of revenue coming out of Oz.

All I'm saying is that I apply the same standard to GW as I do to other companies, which is that I do not make buying decisions based on higher regional pricing in regions that don't affect me. I don't think it's right, or fair, or whatever, but such a huge number of companies do it somewhere in the world for some reason that it's just impossible, self-defeating, and pointless for me to boycott companies on this basis.

I can't imagine that most other people do this for most products, either, as a matter of living on this planet.

If you want to separate out hobby companies, and only apply this standard to them but not other aspects of your life, of course, that's your prerogative.

 Xca|iber wrote:
So what you're saying is... "Got mine, don't care."

You're only just seeing this now?

And no, I'm trying to interject another snarky remark about Talys. I'm being dead serious. "Got mine, don't care" is his whole shtick. You telling me none of you have noticed the none-too-subtle arrogance coming from Talys since he first showed up? His "don't care 'bout no but but myself" way of referring to anything GW does?

There's a difference between "This does not effect me, so I don't have an opinion" and Talys' more specific "This does not effect me, therefore it isn't really a problem" attitude.